Q318 Transcript

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(This tape was transcribed by Katherine Hill. The editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance.)

Jones: – James Earl Ray (tape edit) –questions of taping will be done, so you’ll have something to go on. Guyana has warned Namibia not to sell her freedom out. Why would Guyana make such a statement? Someone want to put up their hand to go up? Yes, Dov [Lundquist]? (unintelligible sentence) (Calls out) No talking. I mean, no talking. You go on with your exam so we can do this. If there’s mumbling, you won’t be able to hear your own test, and you’ll fail the next one. You’re hurting yourself. (Clicks tongue) Someone with a microphone for Dov, so we can move. (tape edit) –has warned Namibia not to sell their freedom out. Why would Guyana make such a statement?

Dov Lundquist: I think– I think ’cause uh, I think, ‘cause– (tape edit)

Jones: It’s not on. (Clicks tongue)

Woman 1: Test, test.

Dov Lundquist: ’Cause USA’ll put uh, satellite in uh, uh, Namibia–

Jones: (unintelligible) (tape edit) has warned Namibia not to ask– (Pause) (tape edit) Namibia not to uh, sell her freedom out. Why would Guyana make such a statement? (Pause)

Dov Lundquist: I– I think–

Jones: You think what, hon?

Dov Lundquist: I think because uh, they– they think that USA will uh, put– use it for a satellite country.

Jones: Well, that’s as wise a statement as it could be. Frankly, some of these are very subjective questions, and I don’t know how– so you’ll– you’ll pass that for a couple of hours. But I– I can’t uh– I – I don’t know– Somebody else want to add something to this? Uh, to me uh, I’ve got all this radio traffic on my mind, trying to give directions. They g– They’re trying to smear the Lieutenant Governor [Mervyn Dymally] who’s up for re-election right now, along with me. Very nice people. (sarcastic tone) So nice they are. (Pause) A– Anyone have any other idea? Odell.

Odell: Uh, the USSR– the USSR feels that the US has too much influence in drawing up their constitution and that the US may try to–

Jones: Shh!

Odell: –influence their elections.

Jones: The USSR feels– and Czechoslovakia – who– both who voted against the resolution of the independence of Namibia – that, indeed, the United Nations is still relatively under the control of the U– the USA because the General Assembly, though it’s made up of a majority of independent nations, black nations, the Security Council still has too many nations that are favorable to the United Nations and they can veto anything – anything – that takes place in the United Nations. Favorable to USA. Thank you. Do correct me, because this is a matter for a basis for learning. (loudly) Now I must have a cessation of talking! Certainly (radio interference) unless Namibia gets a clear resolution that United States, and all those that signed for her so-called independence and her right to Walvis Bay, will the United Nations back that up by each of those in the Security Council that voted for it? Will they use their troops to drive South Africa out of Namibia? That’s why the Soviet Union says it’s not– it’s a paper tiger. It’s a farce because they will not. Obviously they won’t, because today Union of South Africa bombed, what was eleven times [towns], eleven villages inside of Namibia, so it’s farcical. And Guyana says, don’t sell out your freedom on Guyana Broadcasting Sta– Studios. Be careful that your freedom is clear. Be careful that you are really doing something that is giving you independence rather than making you a satellite, as Dov said, of imperialism.

What nations are extending practical technological help to Guyana? (Pause) Be specific in your answer. What kinds of projects are involved? (Tape edit)

Chaikin child: Germany gave uh, Guyana something like (microphone feedback) two gas turbines or something that were worth thousands and thousands of dollars.

Jones: Yes. Yes. Uh– I don’t remember the exact uh, value of them.

Chaikin child: Ch– China is beginning to aid also Guyana in uh, resources.

Jones: The Soviet Union and fisheries–

Chaikin child: Yes.

Jones: –and uh, North Korea. I’ve forgotten all those basic aids that they’re giving, myself. Textiles, plywood – thank you – ceramics, cement. What was uh, Guyana going to give in exchange? Not liquor, to– to North Korea, uh-uh [No]. Uh, well, it may be. It may be because they’re gonna be– they make the world’s– one of the world’s best rum. But that wasn’t in the agreement. It was– What was it? Rice. Timber. And– and sugar. All right. (unintelligible) yes, I– I don’t know, I don’t know. I can’t remember. I won’t say when I don’t know. If that was a part of the agreement with the People’s Democratic N– Government of North Korea, communist North Korea. Was there any bauxite in that? Aluminum? I don’t remember. There was. All right, so there was. Won’t be that far wrong. East Germany did something else, but I– we haven’t come up with what East Germany actually did yet. Yes, Ernestine Blair.

Ernestine Blair: (faintly) (unintelligible) the turbine–

Jones: Put the microphone– put the microphone, please.

Blair: The turbines are $25,000 each.

Jones: 25,000? No, no, no. (pause) 25 million each, that would be– that would be more likely. They produced uh, 250– some kind uh, I– and I’m not familiar– what was it, kilowatts? No, no, no, no. Tw– What did they produce? They were the turbines. Do you remember the electrical output they produce? That’s– Electrician, do you know? 250,000 kilowatts, each one. All right, that sounds more reasonable. All right. Shh. Okay, Chaikin, good, two hours. (tape edit) –extent of importance is now taking place uh– in uh, Havana, Cuba, and go into some detail about the event and why it is important. (radio interference) Odell’s had his hands up several times. Quick, quick, quick. Let’s move quickly. We don’t want to have to waste time.

Odell: They’re having a youth festival in Cuba, and uh, the youth festival so far has resolved that they– they backed the struggle– the armed struggle in uh, Rhodesia, and uh, they condemned the CIA for the use of uh, weather warfare and they condemned uh, the uh, CIA for their uh, involvement in torture in uh, uh, I forgot which country it is. Uruguay. Somebody said the answer, but I–

Jones: Yes, Uruguay, Uruguay. Where one-sixth of all the– one-sixth of– Is it?– one-sixth of the Uruguayan population– it’s on the South American continent– one-sixth are political prisoners, that’s a lot of people. One out of six are political prisoners.

What disagreement did Senator Edward K– two hours– did Edward Kennedy have with President [Jimmy] Carter recently? Ernestine Blair. We gotta move quickly here. (unintelligible)

Blair: Uh, he is condemning uh, President Carter’s uh, welfare and medical aid to the people. He says uh, the people who really need it will not benefit from it.

Jones: Said it’s grossly inadequate. It is farcical. It will not assist the need with the mass unemployment increase, the cost of living. It is inadequate. And it’s the first time in Carter’s administration that Senator Edward Kennedy has disagreed with him. Senator Edward Kennedy seems to be almost schizophrenic. What makes uh– what would give you that opinion? (pause) Who’s the hand behind there? I cannot see. I– I con– I have to see your face. (tape edit) Any time.

Woman 2: The fact that uh, uh, he doesn’t– he doesn’t– he– at one time, he’ll keep his– he’ll uh–

Jones: Now, I want to know something specific, honey.

Woman 2: At one time, it was Kennedy– he made a statement for the Bill 13– 1347, right, he was a (unintelligible).

Jones: (talking over woman) He is a co–sponsor of Senate Bill 1437.

Woman 2: And now, he has his– his– his uh –

Jones: Senate Bill 1437 is an actual fascist law. It takes away people’s rights and would put us in a police state.

Woman 2: And now he’s contradicting Carter instead of goin’ along with him like he usually does, so this’ll make him seem schizophrenic because he doesn’t follow the same pattern.

Jones: Yes, he– yes, that’s fine. Fine, thank you. Two hours. All right, where are we at next? What event of importance – oh, we had that in Ha– Havana – What disagreement did Senator Edward Kennedy have with President Carter recently? By the way, in Havana– Guyana’s present, that’s why we’re having trouble with some of our airlines. They’ve sent their major airlines to take the youth there because they did not want to put them on Cubana Airlines. They lost all their barefoot doctors, you remember. (Calls out) Be still! (normal tone) They lost all their barefoot doctors there in the year ago last fall, October crash, uh, the blowing up by the CIA of the Cubana Airlines in which 73 people were killed. All right now. What recent admission of the FBI director [William Webster] should give Americans great concern? (pause) I cannot see an arm behind the body, dears. Ger– Geraldine Bailey.

Geraldine Bailey: He says he uses the newsmen uh, anywhere he can to get information.

Jones: Right. A black reporter was utilized in Seattle, Washington – I don’t remember the name of the radio station, it’s not important – and UPI ended up with the information, and somebody in UPI turned the information over to the FBI, and the FBI said that they would continue (voice rises over hubbub) to do so. It was their right to do so. The head of the FBI is William Webster, member of four racist and sexist clubs, and the government never ma– required that he resign from them when he gave up his judgeship in Missouri. Also about him– anybody else wants to add something pertinent? He was the judge that handed down all those unfair decisions against the Indian people in Wounded Knee. He is a rightwing person. Two hours for Bailey.

What is detente? In the– Is the US moving towards detente or away from it? Cite evidence for your answer. (Pause) (unintelligible) (Pause)

Man 1: Detente is–

Jones: (interrupting) All graders come to (pause) the table behind the– the last two maps. All graders go there immediately.

Man 1: Okay, detente is like uh, how diplomats– like, one country plays their games with uh, like, balancing of powers between two countries. And right now the US uh, like, was tellin’ USSR to get out of Africa and stuff, is really against detente. Detente is another uh, peaceful coexistence.

Jones: That’s right, peaceful coexistence, is what it is. Two hours. Uh, it– it is, and the– is USA following detente? Detente means peaceful coexistence.

Man 1: No, they’re not, uh, with their policy of telling the USSR to get out of Russia with their– uh, I mean Africa –

Jones: A lot of other things they’re doing, too. What other things are they doing?

Man 1: Interfering uh, with uh– with uh, like uh, sayin’ with uh, Rhodesia, givin’ them help and stuff, and also with their– their policy in uh, South Africa (radio interference) (Pause)

Jones: –the wrong side in Angola, they were on the wrong side in the Ethiopian conflict, backing the Somalian regime. How do we say wrong? It’s very difficult – history’s hard to determine rightness and wrong, but Somalia was trying to take territory that didn’t belong to them. So we have to say – even though Somalia was at one time trying to profess to be following a sort of socialist course – when you try to take other people’s territory, that’s– that’s not right. And uh, of course, we know, we can document a lot more, but that’s basically some of it.

What great– no, what– what is white-marketing, and how will it be affected by a recent event in Guyana?

Man 2: (mike comes on) –keting is when uh, merchants, when they hold off– they hold back the uh– for uh, commodities and then uh, they sell them later on when they in demand at a higher price, and this will hurt uh, people, ‘cause they can’t afford to pay the prices for these commodities.

Jones: Anybody want to add something more to that? What– what– uh, what– what’s Guyana done? I can’t– I can’t– what’s Guyana done– done about it– what’s Guyana doing about it?

Man 2: They have stiff penalties on this, and uh, people are going to jail for two years for these offense. Uh–

Jones: First time, ’cause Guyana normally doesn’t give out stiff sentences in their jails. The first time that anyone that is black marketing or charging above the price or off the market selling things that are price-controlled– they’re very, very strict about that. Giving them penalties and uh, fines and two-year sentences.

What news items from Guyana show that the government is cracking down on capitalistic practices of businessmen?

(radio interference)

Boy 1: Uh, Guyana uh, is stoppin’ uh, the liquor– the liquor– makin’ of rum, and uh, they– they gonna–

Jones: (interrupting) No, no, no, no, no. No, no. It’s not– it’s not stopping the making of liquor. It’s a– It’s a– no more than Cuba is making– stopping cigars bec– and liquor because they– they’ve got– that’s too important an econ– economic factor. It’d be nice to do that, uh, liquor has no benefit from our– our perspective. We would probably be the only socialists in the world that would so agree. It certainly would be terribly detrimental in this cooperative if we had liquor. We’d have violence. We’d have lack of productivity. No, no, no, Guyana is doing something else. Uh, Guyana is, indeed, discouraging drinking, and it’s making heavy sentences on drinking on the public highway, and it’s uh, going to be– rather than selling its liquor here–– what is the term?

Boy 1: Export. It’s gonna export their liquor.

Jones: Another thing it’s gonna export– what? More than its fine rum– what else? It’s now going to be making a refin–

Boy 1: They’re gonna make– They’re gonna make a refinery for yeast in 1979, starting –

Jones: Yes, yes, yes, that’s true. But– a refi– That’s good. They’re making a refinery for yeast, so let’s know that, because that’s been a problem to get yeast here. But they’re refining a table wine. I’ll give you an hour. I’ll give you an hour. They’re refining a table wine, and they’ll be exporting that to help them with their balance of payments. A nation must export– sell more than it buys, or it’s in trouble, right?

Crowd: Right.

Jones: If it doesn’t have– if it can’t do that, it’s got no way of building up foreign capital. What is it, sweetheart?

Orleen Poplin: Uh, is it that they are uh, holding the prices down on fruit and not allowing the dollar to depreciate?

Jones: Here?

Orleen Poplin: In Guyana.

Jones: They’re hold– yes, darling, they are holding the prices down. They’re holding– uh, if you sell a penny above the price on any food here, you’ll get it. It’s not like the United States, now, where uh, the last thing I heard, I don’t know, it was an ungodly sum, but uh, I can’t remember what beef was. It was outrageous. Tenderloin I remember was $4.66 or something like that, a pound. And uh, good lord, have mercy. But here, you– you must not sell chicken above a price. You can’t sell bread a penny above uh, of that price. If you do, you get it. And that’s good. That controls things. Thank you. Give her two hours of credit, or whatever we can do. That’s excellent. Orleen Poplin. Very, very good. Glad to see seniors involved.

All right, now. What news items from Guyana show that the government– oh, wait, we already have that. Who is Somoza– Anastasio Somoza–  what is happening in that country, and what is the country?

Tom Grubbs: Somoza’s a –

Jones: (interrupting) Ten– Ten more graders. We’ll give you extra treats if you’ll assist in this. Put your hands over.

Grubbs: Somoza’s a longtime dictator of the country of Nicaragua, which is a country in Central America. It’s one of the actually longest-lived dictatorships that still exists uh, in the Western Hemisphere and–

Jones: (interrupting) 44 years. Yes, go on.

Grubbs: He’s been there for a long time. And just recently, there’s a tremendous amount of resistance in the country, and I believe there’s armed rebellion now– extensive armed rebellion against his administration. He’s been supported by the US government, and by the United Fruit Company for years. (Pause)

Jones: Do you have all the test papers? You have to have them, because if you don’t turn a test paper in, you’ll– you’ll fail, and you’ll have five extra classes. Five nights of extra classes. (Pause) Whoever’s up here. There oughta be somebody up here collecting them.

Grubbs: He had a second-in-command executed recently as part of the armed rebellion.

Jones: Yes. What happened in uh, Nicaragua? Hunger strikes, all sorts of things. But he said that uh, if he had to kill the entire population– In other words, he was not going to give up his power. But I don’t have the exact quote he gave. Do you remember, Gerry Bailey? (Pause)

Bailey: He said, I am the leader, and I will be the leader, if I have to get rid of my uh, opponents.

Jones: My uh– my– all of my opposition–

Bailey: Opposition.

Jones: That’s right. All of my opposition. I am the leader, I will remain the leader. And he will not step down. They want him to step down. There’s pressure being brought that he’ll step down before the 1981 elections. He refuses to do so. Comrade Grubbs. Yes, thank you.

Bailey: Dad, I wanted to ask you: did he have anything to do with all those tortures in Nicaragua?

Jones: I don’t remember, I don’t– I– I’m sure he did, he’s a dictator. There– there’s a lot of torture’s been done there. But he’s been upheld by US monopoly co– corporations like United Fruit. Yes?

Man 3: Uh, Somoza is fantastically wealthy. And one of the ways that he got this wealth was, there was a terrible earthquakes there a number of years ago, and the Red Cross and other agencies came in to provide uh, aid to– to the people. But he took that and black-marketed it if– himself and kept the money, and none of it got to the people that were suffering from the earthquake there.

Jones: That’s an interesting kind of news– that’s same sort of thing that happened in Zaire with Mo– Mobutu [Sese Seko], and we’re glad for two hours there, and one hour back here for the extra that was given, ‘cause already Gerry had gained two. Now, let us go on. Why has– uh, what has the Washington Post recently said that would make President Carter very angry indeed? (Pause) Nobody? Come on, somebody. Somebody. Okay. Take the microphone to her, honey.

Elderly Woman: (speaks with difficulty) It– it said that the Americans were far– far beyond– what– no– far less what they were supposed to be doing.

Jones: (talking over woman) What’s that?

Elderly Woman: –as far as the black folks concerned. There weren’t – he wasn’t so nice to the blacks (pause) and the minorities.

Jones: Yes, he gave some concrete details, and I don’t remember them. That’s right. We’ll give you one hour for that. Uh, uh, he’s– he gave some concrete details. Magnolia Harris, where are you at? Where are you at? You got some detail on that? You usually– quickly, let’s move here.

Magnolia Harris: It was– it was pretty odd that –

Jones: (interrupting) Let’s get ’em all turned in. Let’s get ’em all turned in, now.

Harris: –that the Washington Post would criticize uh, President Carter for his policies of uh, talkin’ about human rights in other places and the way he treated the Indians and the blacks in America.

Jones: Yes.

Harris: Uh– And it was strange that they should do that. Fact is, they in Washington, right then, and I said, possibly, they’ll have something come down on them now. And they must not be a member of the Hearst uh, syndicate, are they?

Jones: No, they’re not. It’s a– it’s a separately-owned uh– separately-owned organization. Uh, Washington Post is the one that, of course, that uncovered the uh, Watergate thing on [Richard] Nixon. However, it was being talked about in socialist nations before they did. Press is uh– maybe they getting a little more honest. Washington Post has been highly intimidated by uh, Carter’s uh– I mean, the government’s trend towards uh, control, more control on the press, as shown by what? Two hours already (unintelligible).

Harris: Hmm. I don’t remember that one.

Jones: Okay, well, confidential sources– There nothing can be kept now. And they can move in and take the news files in a newspaper, and that may be you. You may have some– it may be– twenty–five years ago, today, as a doctor in 1965, a murderer. A terr– a terrible murderer, indeed. A murderer who owned the hospital, he wanted to get the welfare patients out, so the doctor that owns his hospital uh, gave uh, cura– curare uh, muscle rela– relaxant that is very, very good, that you– you– you could get it here. But he gave them overdoses to kill them. And uh– but the New York Times correspondent would not give them the files, and so they uh, have got the New York Times man in jail, and that’s what they’re gonna do, they’re gonna keep him in jail until he gives those– and that’s what they can do. Now, we saw that done in uh, Fresno. That’s why we were marchin’. I wonder why the hell we ever bothered. But anyway, uh, maybe it kept– Uh, I think it gave us some extra months. But I suspect that’s why they’re talking– they also accused him of uh– The Washington Post has been the most vocal to– but again, it was their foreign edition. Now, who knows what went in the domestic edition. Uh, they accused him of being schizophrenic uh, not– not schizophrenic but hypocritical. Not– not really presidential timber. They accused him also of being hypocritical in his talk of peace, at the same time canceling cultural events and uh, trade with the Soviet uh, Union. By the way, who else attacked Carter for his uh, stopping of trade, which is rather a rare thing? Came over Radio Moscow. Fifty business men. I haven’t got time to move on here. Okay, thank you. Fifty business men signed petitions– leading businessmen said it’s senseless, senseless. Said Carter is not working towards peace, as he says. He’s doing things that’s breaking the peace and endangering nuclear war. All right. I’m trying to avoid you– if you’ll help me by not talking– I’m trying to avoid, you know, a lar– a large– a long Friday night like we had. You understand? So let’s all cooperate and move rapidly. It’s not me that I’m trying to help, because it hurts me the more I talk fast.

What are Israel’s aims for Lebanon? Quickly, quickly. What– What’s Israel’s aims for Lebanon? There’s a lot of subjectivity in these goddamn questions. Okay, Jack, I hope you don’t give me a Bible uh, uh, analogy now.

Jack Beam: I think the– they just want to return the uh– As I understand it, they wanted to return a part of that uh, Lebanese land to the Phalangists, uh, which is the wrong group. It’s not the group in uh, in– in power there. (unintelligible under Jones)

Jones: Right, right, right. One– One hour there. But what they’ve done is not even turn it over to the Christian Phalangists. They set up their own group of people, Pro-Israel Phalangists. ‘Cause not all of the Phalangists are necessarily for Israel. They set up a Christian militia – so that’s why I’ll give you one hour for it – in South Lebanon. And, that’s what that idiot– And your– your tests all in? How many still have their tests out? (Pause) Okay, now, let’s get ‘em– let’s get them in– let’s get them in. It’s time you had– plenty of time. Turn ’em in. No more writing on them. That idiot Menachem Begin of Israel – we want to know his name – has said that he’ll not– he’ll go down in the dust of nuclear war, and he’s got nuclear bombs. He says he’ll not give one sand of the Sinai. He ow– he owns the West Bank, that belongs to Egypt– E– or– or Jordan. He owns the Gaza Strip, that belongs to Egypt. And uh, he’s got South Lebanon. And it’s a very, very difficult situation. I can understand the Jews. I can sympathize with them being nationalistic. But in a nuclear age, when they got nuclear bombs, it’s very, very difficult. Somebody gonna have to bend somewhere, right? And they say not gonna bend. And there’s millions of Palestinians that don’t have a home. They’re living in a refugee camps. And I think there’s so much nationalism in the world, in the nuclear age– that’s why I believe China’s doctrine of three worlds is right, in that extent, that nuclear war is inevitable. I don’t see how in the hell you can get through the nuclear jungle. Because when you got all these people wanting their rights and so chauvinistic and so narcissistic and some people believing that they’re immortal – you know, God bless America, that’s the terrible thing, bomb was never dropped on US soil – so they think God’s with them. They can’t imagine their cities blown up, burned down, completely leveled to the ground with atomic bombs. Because though– in World War II, they didn’t lose anybody. But the Soviets lost 22 million. That– that makes a difference. And I think that difference– all the chauvinism, all the nationalism– even the nationalism that exists in the socialist world– it’s puzzling, it– it’s enigmatic. But it’s damn sure to lead to nuclear war. Does anyone want to take a contrary opinion? Anybody want to? We– we will give you credit– we’ll give you time off– if you take– if you can give a contrary opinion and– and give some substance to it, we’ll give you time off. We don’t like to reinforce ourselves with our own beliefs. (Pause) We welcome a ray of hope. Noone has a– an alternative view? (Pause) Okay, (stumbles over words) not necessarily if it was your view, if you want to take a devil’s advocate. You learn things from being a devil’s advocate sometimes. You understand what I’m saying? All right, now where were we. What two European countries have there been major strikes this past week? Give details. (Pause) Yes.

Voice in crowd: (faint)

Jones: Britain and France.

Voice in crowd: (faint)

Jones: Six hundred flights back up at one time. You’re quite right, quite an– an analytical. Very good. What wa– what strike in Britain that uh, the first time they ever had anything that held up one of those.

Voice in crowd: (faint)

Jones: Right. Yes.

Voice in crowd: (faint)

Jones: There seems to be those contradictions, always. Hitler’s Germany– before Hitler came in Germany, they were a strong left movement, but there was an equally strong right movement, and the right movement won. Same in Spain. The same exists in Italy, unfortunately uh, who will say. The same exists in France. Now that’s good, that’s worth three hours, because we were in a lessened time to be– to be in– within reason of our productivity. Actually, all those that we gave uh, time to in the past, we– we extended the time a little bit too much, and we’ll have ourselves paralyzed in production terms. That was a very good answer.

Now, they held up also a nuclear submarine, which is unusual, which has sixteen lethal weapons that could’ve been hailed on Soviet cities and destroyed Soviet cities. And of course, the Soviet Union can drop one bomb over England and wipe it out. Fifty-five and a half million people will be wiped out, if they want to do it right over England. And that’s all they have to do, is put one major bomb. I’ve forgotten the– I think a thousand megaton – and they’ve got the capacity. Put that sucker just so high, and everything dies in England. One– fif– fifty-five and a half million in 10 seconds. And some of you want to go to Kansas City, and you wonder if the bomb is gonna hit it. (Pause)

Is Britain a model of human rights? Give evidence to support your answer, one way or the other. Yes, young man, quick.

Man 4: Uh, Britain is not a form of human rights. Uh, Margaret Thatcher, she wants to uh, uh, put out all minorities from England. And there’s a s– there’s a strong Red movement, and uh, they wanted– they want all the minorities– minorities out of England.

Jones: Yes, they– they’re having to defend themselves by barricade and do their own vigilante work, ‘cause the police won’t even give them protection. It’s not a model of human rights, because if you uh, had a very strong communist movement in– in uh, England, you’d have– uh, you’d see they’d all land in jail. It’s easy– one person can be a communist. That’s– that’s easy. One person can be a communist. You say, well, uh, Angela Davis is a communist. But she hasn’t got a thousand people with her. That’s why we’re in trouble. We got– we got twelve hundred people here. We got all those people back there. And that makes them nervous because what do they fear– What do you think they fear? They– What– what they fear about us over here? Probably they fear that we’re going to turn this country uh, to the left or we’re going to help make it go further communist, and they may fear – though it seems stupid to us – that we will drop twelve hundred people back – well-organized, highly-trained – at a certain time when the system begins to fall, and it’s certainly, obviously, lotta signs it’s gonna fall, from the difficulties it’s having. The dollar losing– I don’t know where it’s gonna lead to. This dollar– now, my God, it– it was worth two dollars, day before yesterday, in Japanese yen, but today it’s only worth a dollar eighty-seven cents. The dollar’s going down, down, down, down. We bought gold at a uh, dollar sixty-something– sixty-seven cents an ounce, and we bought some at a dollar forty-three cents an ounce , and I think we bought some at a dollar twenty-nine cents an ounce. But it was up, a dollar sixty-three, then we bought some when it was down. Now gold has shot up two dollars and three cents an ounce today. That’s uh, I uh, wish we’d got everything in gold. Yes, you want to say something, make a comment?

Gene Chaikin: What I was going to say is that is not an index of the increased value of gold. It’s an incre– an index of the decreased value of the dollar. And what that means is that the US economy is no damn good any more, in plain English, because if the economy was good, then its– then its money would be recognized.

Jones: That’s– that’s mighty important. Go ahead. Now, where are we at? Britain a model of human rights– Obviously not. What socialist nation in the Caribbean is having economic problems? Give some reasons for those problems – not Guyana, we’re not talking about Guyana at this point – and also some hopeful signs that those problems might be worked out. What got them into trouble? Uh– Whose hand’s? Jim Arthur, I’ve seen your hand up quite a bit.

Jim Arthur Bishop: The IMF gave them some money, and uh– and they took it for development.

Jones: Who?

Bishop: Jamaica. And uh– so what happened was that uh, they couldn’t pay ‘em back. Jamaica couldn’t pay ’em back. They didn’t have enough money. (Pause) Jamaica– it’s Jamaica and uh, they some borrowed money from the IMF, and they can’t– they can’t get the money back to ’em. And uh, Jamaica’s going, I think uh, the uh, China’s helping them, and China might help them get out of the uh, this–

Jones: (interrupting) Not only Jamaica – there, that’s good, a couple of hours – but not only is uh, strange enough China helping them, but the same time, the Soviet Union has moved in there with uh, a tremendous amount of– of aid, and going to pay them with nothing expected in return for the time being, supplying them with all sorts of divers– diversities of fisheries. Now, a lot of you folk better start listening ’cause you gonna be five hours– I can know from these exams tonight, there’ll be– there’ll be some that’ll be– five– five classes, there’ll– there’ll be, undoubtedly. (Pause) Shift, please, shift. What Jamaica– got Jamaica into its problem was taking money from the International Monetary Fund. Kampuchea is being v– voted to– though, strangely enough, with the International Monetary Fund, members of Europe, to have uh– have its money withdrawn. There are strange contradictions in capitalism. They want the IMF money loan blocked to Kampuchea. That shows uh, that Kampuchea is not as communistic as it ought to be, or it wouldn’t be getting money from the International Monetary Fund to the degree that it is. But the International Monetary Fund is voting to drop the money because of its violence against Vietnam, its aid, its– which is uh, encouraging, that there’s some humanity, at least, w– within some people’s minds. I don’t know how many people’s minds. (Pause) Uh, what’s uh– Name several things that were discussed at the O– Organization of African Unity meetings.

Shabaka Baker: Uh, they talked about uh, Namibia uh, Rhodesia, and South Africa. And they said that that was a shame to Africa that so many whites– I mean, so many blacks would be under the rule of white people. And President [Julius] Nyerere of Tanzania made a speech that all African countries can get aid, economically or uh, military aid from any country they please, and US doesn’t have the right to say that Cuba is expansionist or, you know–

Jones: (stumbles over words) Very well, very well done, son. I’m very proud of you. Three hours. The– I– I don’t think there’s a contradiction. China is giving he– Tanzania aid. Tanzania’s been one of the biggest ones that stands up against the imperialism, so you’ve got a contradiction here of nationalism– China’s in here helping Guyana with no strings attached, it’s the one socialist nation that’s made no demands at all. And uh, yesterday, our delegation met them, and they were the friendliest people they’ve ever met. So who in the hell knows what– It’s a damn shame to see the world face confrontation over nationalism, but it’s a natural stage of history, and uh, you can expect it. And some people say, well, because [of] all these differences between communists, we just won’t– (stumbles over words) we won’t practice communism. Well, that is ridiculous because under capitalism, two out of three babies starve to death. There’s no security in capitalism. There’s no humanity in capitalism. Naturally people have nationalistic developments in their envir– as they– as they progress. That’s a– a part of us. Some of us are very suspicious of outsiders, are we not?

Crowd: Responds

Jones: And– And do we not have basis to be suspicious?

Crowd: Responds

Jones: China be– uh, been harmed by the whites. The white Russians came in and settled there, fleeing from the czar, and they raped ’em, and then the religious missionaries, in the Opium Wars, the white missionaries– so, China, being a people of color, have great suspicion. And the same things that China– uh, who was it that invaded uh, Russia from China? Genghis Khan, one of the great military geniuses. Uh– ah, ah, you got all those conflicts. Just because you suddenly have a revolution that makes a nation communist doesn’t change them overnight to make them internationalists. Do you want to make some comment?

Chaikin: Yeah, I was going to say, I’ve been thinking about this for a long time in my odd moments. It seems to me that China is developing a very, very sophisticated foreign policy. Nationalistic, to be sure, but what they’re attempting to do is balance uh, the United States and the Soviet Union, and they’re putting the United States in a peculiar position because, by supporting the United States, they can then come into Latin America, start influencing Latin America, and if the United States criticizes them, they’ll say, fine, we’ll back off from all the agreements. So, in a sense, they’re putting Washington in a double bind. And it’s pretty sophisticated, what they’re doing.

Jones: It is pretty sophisticated, and I think it’s very well put out– pointed out. Zaire– we– we were all troubled, and Russia still troubled, or Bulgaria– Bulgaria was today, a uh, satellite– a– a– a– I don’t like that term, that’s a capitalist phrase. We’re all brainwashed by the damn shit. Uh– The Warsaw Pact– it’s in the alliance– it’s one of allied nations with the Soviet Union of independent socialist nations. But they were condemning China’s practices in Zaire, yet this dictator, Zaire– of Zaire, Mobutu Sese Seko. What does he do? Turn around and make negotiations with Angola and normalize peace there and have a railway between them to ship his minerals out so US not gonna be able to just gobble ’em up, and Belgium’s not gonna be able to gobble ’em up. So China’s doctrine of three worlds is understandable. It takes on more understanding. We have to change our thought as we see– look at history, do we not?

Crowd: Responds

Jones: We always knew that China had a humanitarian policy within. It’s obvious. Any– any nation that lives on collective communes, they are more communistic than the Soviet Union in that regard. They live in communes. Make-up is not used by any of them, they noticed in the delegations. They don’t– uh, their clothing is very uh, modest. And that you can’t say for the Soviets. And Soviets are affected by consumerism. However, the Soviets have been more consistent in their liberation efforts, and in– for that, we admire them. But maybe there’s a new day emerging, and, as he said, it is a sophisticated policy. You ca– You have to– you have to give them credits for that. The Soviet Union could not move in as well, although they are moving into Jamaica, which I’m surprised didn’t bring the wrath of US capitalism on their head with that fishery agreement. But China can move in here with a great deal more dispatch in– and protect Guyana’s interests than the Soviet Union would be able to get by with, because USA wants China’s help against Vietnam, other places in the world. They want it over in Africa. So– And what [is] the doctrine of three worlds? Do you all know it now?

Crowd: Stirs.

Jones: Well, you can expect it on the next test. I don’t even think we need to talk about it. You better talk about it in the privy, you better talk about it with your neighbor, because you– Now the doctrine of three worlds takes on some meaning. Uh– There’s two– You know the first two: Soviet Union and USA. The second– and they both acc– they accuse both of them of hegemony, but they say the USSR is more dangerous. But s– the third– the second world is all the European nations, and the third is the undeveloped nations led by China. And it’s all predicated– their doctrine is predicated on the inevitability of nuclear war. Remember the prime minister of China [Deng Xiaoping, Premier of China] said that nuclear war, it will be inevitable. He said it in January of this year. And he said it was very soon, but it uh– it has not come about yet. I’m surprised it hasn’t with all of the screwin’ around they’re doin’. And maybe he’s right. I think– I think they are. On that point, I have to agree with the Chinese. The Russians never agree with that. Angela Davis went just simply, infernally mad when we talk with her. She was like a person that believes in the Second Coming of Jesus, when we said, gonna be a nuclear war. When uh, uh, socialism will fail in the USA. She hadn’t faced that. You think a b–revolutionary can be a revolutionary and not face defeat?

Crowd: Responds

Jones: Well, there oughta’ve been more “no’s” than that. Obviously you cannot.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: You should be fighting for something because it’s morally right.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: It’s morally right that we share here. It’s morally right that we care.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: S– And you see such tremendous growth in people, if you look, with any sensitivity at all. See these children stand up, like Shabaka. He wouldn’t known– he wouldn’t have known that kind of a commentary. What a tremendous commentary. What insight, to be able to quote a black president in Tanzania and give his philosophy? We see it day after day. We see a se– a senior like uh, Comrade Poplin stand up here and give uh, uh, uh, uh, a question and uh, pose her own answers that you would never see from seniors in USA. You couldn’t– our people in the meetings, all they were concerned about was me healing some wart on their ass.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: You know it’s true.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: Thank you, Jesus.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: Why is a mother– no, no, no, no, no, no. (speaks under breath). We already got to– Where in the hell were we? What was the last question? (short laugh) The Organization of African Unity meetings, yes. And the OAU also said that uh, they were– they would have a pan-African peace-keeping force, but it would not be dictated by Paris or Washington D.C. And they did not condemn Cuba, as they tried to get it done. In fact, they defended Cuba, as uh, Shabaka pointed out. What were some of the re– resolutions passed at the conference of Non-Aligned Nations? Casanova, I’ve seen your hand up several times. Quick. Let’s move quick, ’cause you could get– you coulda got the same amount of knowledge in that tape the other night in half as ti– in half the time if we don’t pause and dilly-dally.

Casanova (either Angelique or Sophia): Uh, they uh, supported the uh– Ethiopia’s fight against Somalia, and they said that they wouldn’t uh, they wouldn’t uh– I knew that they– something about US, they didn’t uh– the embargo, they didn’t– they wouldn’t support uh, the embargo for the US. I can’t uh– I’m– I’m mixing –

Jones: I– I’m confused now. Belgrade. Belgrade, Yugoslavia. It’s held– It was held in Belgrade, Yugoslavia uh, uh, they would like to see– strong sentiment, of course. Marshal [Josip Broz] Tito said that uh, of– of– of Yugoslavia, that– (Pause) Quit talking over there so loudly. Marshal Tito said that long live president of c– of communist. And he’d been a communist all his life, children. Don’t you think that the communists die young necessarily. He’d been a fulfilled life. He’s 87 years of age. He’s still– he has a younger wife. He’s been very active. He’s still the president of that non-aligned country. He did say he was concerned that there would be– well, he made the frank pronouncement and BBC carried it, and then– and I didn’t know how to handle it, ’cause I just gave it as it was said, World War III has already begun. I don’t know, my Jesus. (unintelligible) this 309? No. World War III’d already begun. Why had World War III already begun? Why’d he say it? (Pause) Nobody lean on the post, now, some of you people. Keep alive. Keep your spark going, keep your spark goin’. Get to– get to feeling, get to caring. (Pause) Yes, he said the African struggle– the– the– the struggle in Africa– the need for US aid to have certain minerals. USA can’t function. That’s why, as Gene says, that the– the– the gold increase, shows the fact that the dollar isn’t worth shit. And now the Arabs gonna increase the oil and pull away the Arab League, gonna pull away and develop their own oil and develop their own weapons. What in the hell is gonna happen? USA cannot give up these countries where there’s all the major copper and uh, uranium and cobalt and diamonds. They can’t do it– And gold. So US– uh, is USA just gonna collapse without going into nuclear war? No. Tito now has become a– a proponent of China’s philosophy that way, though he condemned China, on certain occasions, and he’s not in the Chinese alliance. He’s not aligned. And he said the situation in Near East cannot be resolved. The diametrical uh, opposition points of view. The Arabs want one thing, the Palestinians want one thing, have to have it, it’s their land. USA and Britain, the capitalists, set up a false situation to begin with, a situation gonna bring about war automatically, and Israel has got an intransigent uh, uh– an absolute prime minister who says, “By God, we will not bend. Uh– We won’t give a dust of Sinai. We won’t– we’ll go down in our own dust before we give it up.” And what are you gonna do with a little– little screwass that’s got nuclear weapons? And he says that. How you gonna get him out of there? Are the Arabs gonna uh, forever put up with it? Is Lebanon going to allow part of Lebanon to continue to belong to Israel? Is Jordan gonna let part of its land, the West Bank, belong to Israel? Is Egypt forever gonna have a [Anwar] Sadat that’s an Uncle Tom? No, he’ll die finally. And somebody– the Egyptians are gonna say, “Give us our– back our Gaza Strip. Give us back the Sinai.” Who the hell’s gonna give? And how you gonna make Israel give? Particularly if she has a fanatic. Then he also pointed out the contradictions in Southeast Asia, between Kampuchea and Vietnam. He said there’s too many boiling points. World War III has already begun. It’s just a matter of time before the nuclear weapons start to blow, and you people out there cannot face that, some of you seniors. You’re still too– you’re like Angela Davis. (Voice rises) You’re too messianic oriented. You believe in your own immortality. You’ve never faced that every city, everything you ever knew, all those goddamn little villages you were going to go back to in Tennessee, are going to be leveled uh, gonna be leveled like a desert.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: Only it’ll be deeper than a damn desert. There will be about three miles deep, dug out of the earth.

Crowd: Right!

Jones: That’s what you’ve got to face as a reality. Then make your foreign policy on that. That’s why China’s building her underground shelters. As uh, Chaikin said, she’s very, very sophisticated in that. And China– we’re grateful that she came to the e– economic assistance of– of uh, Guyana and Jamaica. And do you think that just because we’ve been pro-Soviet, we’re going to be intransigent? We’re not gonna move? We’re not gonna be friendly to China? If it makes the Russians mad, that’s too bad. We are also non-aligned, are we not?

Crowd: Right!

Jones: If anybody comes in here and asks if we’re pro anything? No, we believe in communal living, we believe in cooperative living, we believe in a socialist lifestyle. We’re not against United States. We are for the working class people.

Crowd: Right!

Jones: Fact of the matter, (laughs) we certainly prefer uh, Carter over Nixon, in some ways uh, uh, that’s debatable too, though. I don’t know, I don’t know. Time will tell, time will tell. But remember certain things. We live by peace. We don’t believe in guns. We don’t believe in violence towards each other. You remember all of these things? Be sure you got them all in your brain. Obviously we don’t put anyone in boxes. And we don’t whip anybody. We don’t uh– we don’t have uh, free sex. And you can marry whoever you want to. (Pause) Marry who you choose. Is that not true?

Crowd: Responds

Jones: If you’re silly enough to get married.

Crowd: (Laughs, low conversation)

Jones: You don’t even have to marry them in the– in official sense, but that’s gonna cause a lot of hair– high– eyes to raise and brows to be lifted. So I would say you can– and get engaged to whoever you choose here. I don’t think I’d talk about that because that’s a littlepremature for some socialists even.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: But we believe in the family. We believe in the nuclear family. We believe that daddy and mother both equally – so if you’re asked [the] question – we believe that dad and a mom and every little child might be asked questions by someone. You never know whether it’s the CIA or who it is. Say, yeah, we believe in the family. We believe that daddy ought to help to raise the child, just like the mother should help to rear the child, and should (unintelligible) to the child and should take care of the child and share the burdens of uh– of child-rearing together. Right?

Crowd: Right!

Jones: How do we re– how do we get people to work? We work because we care about each other. We care about our own individual family, and we care about the bigger family.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: Sure, there’s certain rewards if you do work. There’s rewards. We– we– we get rewards also for listening to current events. But we are not going to be sitting here and saying dogmatically, “Well, we are pro-Soviet. and there’s where we stand.” We couldn’t afford to be that, in the first place. That would be foolish. That would not be a uh, uh, a reasonable solution when China is working with Guyana. But, secondly, we are seeing something happen with China that is encouraging. Let us hope. Let us hope. And I– I don’t know that uh, there’s much more that she could do if she thinks the nuclear war is going to come. She has more underground shelters than anyone. How many understand that now and are prepared for it? I want you to be able to get that complex test– that complex under– that complex understanding. (unintelligible word) rather– rather clear understanding. She’s got more underground shelters in the few years, her rev– her revolution brought her out of the caves in 1949, and she’s got underground shelters that reach out– underground cities a hundred miles from the main centers of Nan– Nanking, Peking, and various of– of the various cities of China. Shanghai. She’s eliminated the rats. She’s eliminated the flies by swattin’ them, and I do hope that you’ll bring your fly swatter or we’re gonna start penalizing. As we check in, we wanna check and see if people have their fly swatters. Say the fly swatter’s not needed at night. But we do need to see you doing it in the day. How many’ll pledge you’re gonna use your fly swatter? (Pause) Okay. So if China believes there’s gonna be a nuclear war, it’s best in her mind, no doubt, to get it over with, right?

Crowd: Responds

Jones: Before Israel gets the bomb, and all the other nations get the bomb, until finally there’ll be nothing left of the world. So she’s probably trying to play it, as Chai– as Chaikin brought uh, clearly out, he– he– he– she’s able to move into the vacuums in Latin America where USA wouldn’t tolerate Russia. At the same time, she’s able to play them against each other. And she– That’s cruel. It’s hard for me to calculate it. But if– I’m not scientific enough orie– oriented, I don’t know enough about all the scientific realities of nuclear technology. But if she does get it off now and get it over with, all the world admits that this part of the world will survive, almost untouched. If we go another twenty years, everybody’s gonna have the bomb. So China’s moving to get Russia and USA to finish it off. And maybe she’s even doing the Soviets a fa– a– a service because the Soviets have several underground cities, too. Underground shelters. Who doesn’t have any? USA. And I want that strongly emphasized next time. We went over this, I– we shouldn’t be repeating it. All right, we’ll move on now to the next question. We got the non-aligned nations, didn’t we, in Belgrade. Why is a mother suing NBC? (Pause) Mike has had his hand up several times.

Mike: There was a new– a movie called Born Innocent on NBC where a young– young woman was uh, mutilated and raped and uh, this woman who–

Jones: (interrupting) By seven teenagers–

Mike: Right, this woman who’s suing NBC, her daughter was uh– had the same thing done to her as a model from uh, Born Innocent.

Jones: Just hours after, and so she uh, is attributing to it but that today NBC put up all sorts of appeals ‘cause the big networks (laughs), they’re not going to– Well, this was– this was tried to be established in Florida too, you remember that case. That’s good, two hours. Uh– That– It was also uh, attempted to be proven in Florida – You recall? – where a young man killed, just he– to– he copied it, admitted it. Psychiatrist brought forth evidence, but the courts wouldn’t award it. The courts really do not have independence against the big power magnates. And NBC, ABC, and CBS have been the servants of the capitalists. They need them. They may protest a little bit about giving up their freedom, but look at Argentina, where they all have to be censored. Did any newspaper close down? One. Look in Chile, when they took over and said, newspapers, you’re going to print what the government tell you. Anybody protest? One. You watch, when the time comes and they tighten up USA. That press will fall right in line. And the courts are no more independent. They’re not gonna take on NBC and CBS. They’re not gonna give some little kid that was innocent and didn’t have enough time, no really good uh, cultural, positive things coming through that bloob tube– that television– and so he sits and looks at somebody killed, and he’s in a troubled home, and most homes are troubled. Mo– Daddy and mom are fightin’ with each other, or they’re divorced, and there’s nothing but drugs and violence all around him. And so he watches somebody, he’s angry, and he watches somebody kill somebody on TV, and he goes out and kills several. And his mother charged them with several million dollars. But, oh, they put the best lawyers in the world. Can a poor man get a lawyer? No. Can– A poor man can’t even get out of jail. That’s why the bail system so unfair. They’re saying, oh, someone is out on (stumbles over words) (speaks quietly) The only thing I don’t like about Huey Newton right now, with his party practically gone, if I were Huey, I’d go to jail. I’d go to jail, by God, because he’s never taken care of his people like I’ve taken care of mine.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: Never has worried about the children, down to the grandmas, and up to down. (Claps one) If I didn’t have nothin’ left – and he’s never had communes for his people – if I were in Huey’s place right now, I would not show the American working class, he could take the bite out of all that dirty lie they’re lyin’ on him. They’re lyin’ on him. It’s a terrible thing they’re doing, lying to that magazine to cut him down. But if I were Huey Newton’s place, (deliberate)  I would go to jail. I wouldn’t be out on no $500,000 bail, because you don’t communicate to the working class. But I’m not in the same position, ’cause if I went to jail, a lot of people would hurt you.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: Jail looks good to me, though, baby, let me tell you, it looks good to me. When I go through the kind of stuff that I go through here, day after day, week after week, you wouldn’t want to be in my shoes, not one day. Some of you would not.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: Johnny Jones had asked and others to be– for Stephan [Jones] to be the chairperson of Steering, and he was reluctant to take it, and I– no wonder, he’s been my son, but he said he would, because he has leadership qualities. He certainly– he’s got that fair mindedness. And uh, so he did, he– he accepted it. But uh, let me tell you, nobody– I hope to hell you don’t put them through what I been through. I hope that these leaders that are coming on– I hope you don’t think that they gotta be your momma, your daddy, and your fucker.

Crowd: Applause (Tape edit)

Jones: Peace. (Tape edit) –warm with each other. I want you to be kind to one another. And it is improving. I want us to be decent people. I want us to be knowledgeable people. I want us to have the necessities of life, and also help the rest of the world get theirs.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: (Voice calms, then rises) But he asked me what I want: nothing. I don’t want a thing on this earth. Nothing, but your happiness. And if you ask me what I’d want– because people still put me through too much– you put me through too much. You expect too much of me. You make me a god, and even though I can heal the sick and raise the dead, it’s not fair to expect me to be perfect every second and answer every damn problem you got, and know what’s on your mind!

Crowd: Responds

Jones: It’s not fair the kind of things that some of you put me through!

Crowd: That’s right.

Jones: Come on, now!

Crowd: Right!

Jones: A person ought to have some peace.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: (Calms) If everyone stands on their own feet, then we’ll be able to get that peace. Why is astrology an opiate of the people? USA is going strongly uh, as– astrologic– everybody’s on the astrology ki– kick. Yes, you used to be in it, that’s a good one, you answer it.

Woman 3: ’Cause it’s good– It confuses the people and takes their minds off of the real goal of life.

Jones: Yes.

(unintelligible as Jones and Woman 3 talk over each other)

Jones: What’s another aspect to it that’s extremely dangerous?

Woman 3: Well, it causes– It makes ’em believe in a false– a false hope, also.

Jones: False hope, but there’s something that’s extremely difficult. Tish [Leroy] had been in astrology, and had written lots of papers and made money at it.

Woman 4: Very possibly, uh, it’s the part that makes them think that uh, there’s a just world, and that justice is going to prevail regardless, and it completely deceives them in that way.

Jones: Plus the uh– the idea that your stars are fixed, uh, that is generally propagated by those who don’t know what the hell they’re talking about and uh, so the– uh, it’s fatalism, and nothing you can do about the goddamn situation, nothing you can do about black people being black. It’s the same thing with reincarnation. If we made that a doctrine– even though I believe it– and I don’t like it– and I get– uh, because at certain times there’s– (laughs) I believe it, I just believe it. By God, then they try to give me rest, and they tell me what I do, I don’t want– I– I wouldn’t want nobody to ev– even give me that kind of rest, because they– I– I’d go back into another life and start talking about shit. I don’t even know what I’m talking about. I don’t even remember it, don’t relate to it. I believe it, I don’t understand it, still don’t make this universe any sensible to me, don’t make any sense to me at all. ’Cause seems to me I’m doing the same thing I did before. (Pause) I don’t want to hear nothin’ about no damn reincarnation. Sure, I may be reincarnated 84,000 times, but I don’t want to hear nothin’ about it. ‘Cause I– they– they– they told me something yesterday, I had to have some rest and they tried to give me some rest, and people who are not believers told me crap I– come out of my mouth, I thought, well, Jesus Christ. I wish I didn’t believe in it. But I sure wouldn’t be talking about it. The only thing that has any practical merit is to tell you, don’t commit suicide, ‘cause you get your ass in a worse grab bag. I don’t understand it, but what’d it say? You’ll go back 500 generations. Ten thousand years. I don’t want to go back no 500 generations, and start all this crap over again. Do you?

Crowd: No!

Jones: So then quite tryin’ to kill yourself by eatin’ too much.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: Quit tryin’ to kill yourself by– by not t– takin’ your medication.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: Some of you never go up to that pharmacy. You– They have to hunt you down. That’s not right. You ought to know– You ought to remember when your in– insulin’s due. Regard for the miracles where insulin’s been lifted. Kay [Rosas] was talking last night– the miracle– she can eat anything now, and she was so diabetic she couldn’t– she ca– she ate all– all in Georgetown, eat anything here, sugar doesn’t bother her at all. Miraculous. But you be sure that the doctor says that’s okay. Hm? You be sure. Say, I– I– I don’t commit suicide. When your ass is waddling, bigger than a balloon, down the pathway, you’re commitin’ suicide.

Crowd: Applause

(Tape edit)

Jones: It’s a death wish, and it don’t work out the way you want it to work out. Look at Bobby Stroud. Four damned accidents. All broken up and all crushed, this, that, and the other thing. It don’t always work out the way you want it.

Crowd: That’s right.

Jones: So be careful. A nice, sweet kid. But get off of that death wish, ’cause it’ll bring about more shit than you know you don’t want. Hm?

Crowd: Responds

Jones: Ya hear what I’m sayin’?

Crowd: Yeah.

Jones: It’s a noble thing, if you’re gonna give your life to something. Say I’m gonna go in, I’m gonna make a– a demonstration of my life. That’s a noble thing, if there was a time and a place for that. But right now, we need you here to help build. Everybody is needed to help build. There may be a day when you can go to Africa and do something. When you’re fighting for liberation and freedom, that’s called a revolutionary demonstration. But we do not believe in suicide. Do you hear that?

Crowd: Responds

Jones: Somebody asked you, if you believe in reincarnation, don’t discuss it, say– if anybody asks you that (Stumbles over words)– say, “I don’t– my– my– what I believe about religion is my own business, I don’t want to go into that.” Say, “I– I don’t believe in g– I believe in doing practical things.” You understand what I’m saying? Don’t get into religion. If somebody asked you, who you– who do they think I am, say, “I– He’s Jim Jones. He’s a black-haired man. Got two eyes, I think they’re brown. He’s got five fingers on each hand. Four fingers and a thumb. And I never seen what’s inside his pants,” or something like– Don’t do that. Don’t do that.

Crowd: Laughs

(Tape edit)

Jones: –delegation, one of these– the man come up to me, and he says, “Father, that wasn’t enough,” he says, “I got– I– I– I– I’m sick all over.” What do you do that for? Why do you do that? That’s a terrible thing that you do that to me. (tape edit) That’s why astrology– it’s fatalism. You don’t believe anything. That’s what– religion. People say, uh, I don’t worry about it, it’s so– uh, uh, Nell Smart said it very well last night, said, oh, that’s the Lord’s testing. Prejudice, discrimination, black people in jail, black people shot down, police. (mocking tone) That’s just a test of the Lord. Hm? Yeah, you said it yourself ’fore you got converted. Or, semi-converted. Some of you got one leg in that religious shit and one leg in socialism.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: That’s– that’s why you– that’s why you crip around. You got that old cement of sh– religious shit on one leg, and you got one leg free, uh–

Crowd: Responds

Jones: That’s true.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: That’s why a lot of you are sick. You got one leg in socialism, another leg in the religious shit.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: One leg in socialism and the other leg wrapped up in your own selfishness.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: Socialism– Socialism brings about selflessness. It brings about the death of the ego and the life of the sociocentric ego. We become sociocentric, we become concerned about others, not ourselves. And religion– if you’re religious, you’re concerned about yourself. (mocking tone) “I’m goin’ to Heaven.” Who– Why– What the hell? One of the damn Beatles said he was going to heaven. He’s got as much right to go to Heaven as we have. We dirtied up the whole fuckin’ earth.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: What did the Cuban youth festival critics criticize the U.S. government agency for? What’s it for? Say, they accused us– the CIA of blowing up that Cubana Airlines, that’s one of the things they did, plus a number of other things. What is it?

Voice in crowd: (Too soft)

Jones: Torturing people in Uruguay.

Voice in crowd: (Too soft)

Jones: Using – that’s important – weather warfare. Now we got to look at that thing. We gotta know about that weather warfare. We gotta know about how they break the ozone layer. They haven’t sophisticated that, but they have the weather warfare. Other things they’ve done, too, they’ve been– they’re able to put things underground to cause earthquakes. They already can do that. Cause tidal waves and typhoons. Geophysical– it’s called geophysical warfare. Know that. Now we move on to the next one.

What happened at a KK[K] meeting this week, in Los Angeles and one in Oxnard.

Woman 5: Socialist chicana stormed into a KK uh, meeting –

Jones: That’s beautiful–

Woman 5: – in Los Angeles.

Jones: That’s right, that– and it was called the Progressive Labor Party, I believe. And it’s quite correct, that– That’s two hours. They stormed into the meeting and the police didn’t uh, (small laugh) get to them before they broke every damn window out in Los Angeles. But in Oxnard– the Soviet Union– now we got– that’s another question– the Soviet Union said on the news tonight, in Oxnard, that the KKK has so– so powerful influence– where’s Oxnard? I don’t even know the damn town.

Crowd: Responds, male mentions Rodriguez family from Santa Barbara

Jones: Right by Santa Barbara. They say it’s so powerful in the town that nobody can touch the meetings there, and they have meetings after meeting. They’re showing that goddamn movie. What is that old movie that was so–? Birth of a Nation, that sh– glorifies the Ku Klux Klan and uh, sh– glorifies the blacks being returned to slaves. And uh, uh, nobody can touch them. Demonstrators against the Ku Klux Klan go to jail, but no Ku Klux Klan. Said Oxnard– now, when Moscow Radio deals with it, it has to be pretty significant. That’s a little ol’ one-horse town. But it’s not that bl– that small. I think Oxnard’s fairly size, isn’t it? What is it? What is the size? What is the size of it. Anybody know? (Pause) I don’t know.

Faint voice in crowd: 46,000.

Jones: Forty– sixty thousand. That’s a lot of folk. (unintelligible question) Navy base, and it’s Ku Klux Klan. Well, we saw that. They had the Ku Klux Klan in San Diego, didn’t they? The– The missile base up there and the– and the blacks were– were protesting the Ku Klux Klan. Who went to jail? Ku Klux Klan? No. Blacks. Blacks beat their ass, and they went to jail. Ku Klux Klan was goadin’ them with crosses, burning crosses, and slurs, and hit them and done other violent acts, but nothing happened to them. All right. Give some recent news items from Guyana. That’ll be enough for the present moment that’ll carry you through that you’ll be responsible for all that between now and then next test on Friday. If we have one on Friday. (Pause) Come on, give me some recent news events in Guyana. (Pause) Okay, Diane– Deanna. Diane. (Pause)

Deanna Wilkinson: Uh, one thing is that the women are taking over the pricing of the uh– the fruit in Guyana. I mean, they’re, like, heading it, where they can’t go higher. And also, [Guyana Prime minister Forbes] Burnham is uh, looking at– see if there’s it– un– uh, used land and if there is, he’s– he’s making a use for ‘em, if nobody’s growing things that can be eatable– I think that’s– that’s edible. Also uh, (exhale) uh, I don’t know, but uh–

Jones: Okay, two hours there. Somebody else give uh– give us some more. (stumbles over words) Step up to the microphone, just quick, just– just do it. Step up there, step up there, quick. Step up to the microphone. What else?

Boy 2: I– I think it’s about the le– uh, liquored, uh, they stoppin’ the uh, they– they, uh, stoppin’ liquor and –

Jones: (talking over boy) No, they’re stopping– uh, they– they’re selling it– sale of it locally and want to export it, sell it abroad. Refining it, making it, producing it better.

Boy 2: So they can make, more on like import jel– uh, jelly and uh –

Jones: (talking over boy) Jams, that’s right.

Boy 2: – and more stuff and more uh– more stuff they can use in Guyana better than uh, liquor and stuff.

Jones: All right, all right. Yes, comrade.

Woman 6: Aren’t they teaching socialism in their schools?

Jones: Yes, that’s true, and they’re setting up socialist seminars that– that are more important. Socialist seminars. Uh, give her one hour. Socialist seminars, uh, they’re setting them up for who? The police. And they’re setting it up for the school teachers, the professions, and what else was it? Strong Marxist-Leninist, that encourage me, from Guyana Broadcasting Studio. There’ll be a strong emphasis on Marxist-Leninism. Somebody else had to– had to go through it. I can’t– The military. And the news media. The news media had to go through strong indoctrination in Marxist-Leninism that Burnham – Prime Minister Burnham – condemned them for always taking– believing everything they read in the capitalist press. Yes.

Woman 7: Uh, there was a– a grocery tha– owner that was charged for $2,000 for selling commodities for uh, under price– over price.

Jones: Over price, yes, over price.

Woman 8: And– And plus uh–

Jones: One-half hour.

Woman 8: –and plus Mrs.– Mrs. [Viola] Burnham uh, is uh, br– telling all the brothers in Guyana that they better participate in the household, and plus some of the bab– the babies– babies in the house are everyone’s responsibility.

Jones: Yes, good. Another one half hour.

Woman 9: They warned Ni– Niambia [Namibia] about the independence that they were getting, too, and uh–

Jones: What?

Woman 9: They uh, warned Niambia about the independence that they were getting–

Jones: Right, that had been said before. That– that– that’s– that’s very important.

Woman 9. Okay, and uh, Burnham says that you only disagree with a dictator once.

Jones: That’s true. A half hour. Said, if I was a dictator– Obviously, if he was a dictator, all this stuff wouldn’t be going’ on. Got strikes and everything– they’ll– they’ll have strikes all [the] time. People strike. You don’t strike in a dictatorship. In fact, the army comes and gets you and shoots you. See, nobody shootin’ at ’em. They got a strike going on now. Yeah.

Woman 10: Because of a new referendum, uh, plus there be free telephone, and free dental and medical care.

Jones: It’s already begun. Patty up the river got all the antibiotics she needed and the full treatment, didn’t cost her a penny. So we got to find out how to do it. We just– but some of us insist on going to the most uh, pleasant-looking hospital or sanitarium. If you don’t mind conditions– You know what I’m talking about? Best help’s in Georgetown hospital. It’s not necessarily the general hospital. You got some of the best doctors there. You don’t necessarily like the surroundings, though Chaikin was there. He did all right. Not that bad. Bed’s a little close, but what the hell? You’re used to that. (Short laugh)

Crowd: Responds

Jones: I can– I can use my influence, and they won’t put anybody in the bed ‘cause they have done that. Guyanese are not so fini– finicky as some as you– some of you– they– they– they had both had the same problem, they shared the bed rather than put ‘em out. ’Cause Guyana now has pledged to give everyone– Yeah. I heard– I heard it on GBS the other day. Two fellas in uh, they was in for the same kind of thing, I don’t know what it was, and so they just shared the bed. Didn’t have a bed so, by God, they shared a bed. So smile, honey, you haven’t had to share your bed yet.

Crowd: Responds

Jones: You won’t, you won’t, you won’t. We’re going to be building. Okay, now, let’s go it quickly.

James Cordell: Uh–

Jones: Go ahead, quickly. Go on.

James Cordell: Uh, there was uh– Burnham said that the– that the uh– the jungle and the– the river snapper is uh– is a lot better than the imported sardine, and he said the uh–

Jones: Beautiful.

James Cordell: –the uh, local black-eyed pea is better than the uh, imported uh, split pea, and he said–

Jones: They’re more nutritious, too. B– Both of them. Very good.

James Cordell: –and– and uh, he said uh, he said mangos are more highly nutritious and tasty than the uh, imported golden apples.

Jones: Yeah, uh, man– uh, that’s right, mangos. And we’ve eaten ‘em here, you peel ‘em back, they’re delicious. They’re better for– they’re better for you than apple– apple or anything else. They’re almost sufficient unto diet unto themselves. Very good. One hour for that, that was excellent.

Annie: He also said, too, that they was takin’ the land from the rich people and turning it over to the people that would work it, and he didn’t like the yards growing up in weeds.

Jones: That’s right, that’s good. One hour. One hour for that, Annie. That’s– next– next let’s hear it.

Boy 3: They– They opened the uh, nursery for uh, three months to uh–

Jones: All these people get extra. Now they get more than extra treats. Those who get excellents on the gr– exams get extra treats, but they get extra extra. Okay, go ahead.

Boy 3: –and uh, also uh, Burnham said that uh, whoever wants to go back to the US, they’ll just end up uh– I forgot the word like– but they’ll get lower jobs than they have here.

Jones: Yeah, they’ll be second-class citizens. They’ll end up as bellhops, pushing a broom. Doctors– the doctors have already gone back there, it– it– it– it came out today on the news. I don’t think I mentioned it. Doctors have gone back there, and the doctors, by God, are pushing brooms. They are so prejudiced against any Indian and black, they will not now license them. The capitalist white doctors want to keep a hold on, ’cause [if] they get too many more doctors, they won’t be able to hold up the prices and cheat the people, and be able to kill them all so they can keep their hospitals full. So there are doctors that went back there, (claps once) trying to get away from socialism here that are actually doing nothing but office work or pushing a broom or being nothing more than an elevator operator. All right.

Boy 4: And uh, Guyana’s Broadcasting System said that Rhodesia had a white referendum.

Jones: A what?

Boy 4: A white referendum.

Jones: Yes, a– a white– a white referendum. Yeah, yeah, that’s right, that’s right. Half hour.

Man 5: Uh, uh –

Jones: It was a white referendum, ’cause the blacks had nothing to say on it.

Man 5: I was going to mention that– what Jimbo said ’bout the uh, uh, prime minister mentioning about uh, economy system going back, that was it–

Jones: Thank you, comrade, we won’t repeat it, but go ahead. That’s thoughtful.

Woman 11: They’re also having classes on learning disabilities. And I think Guyana’s gonna–

Jones: Give him a half hour, he wasn’t– he obviously wasn’t up there for nothin’.

Woman 11: I think Guyana’s also going to start trying to make their own drugs.

Jones: Nobody else get up, please. Yes, they’re establishing their own– they have a special name for it. I– Formulary. Formulary. They’re gonna start their own formulary. China’s helping them with that, by the way. They’ll be manufacturing their drugs, and that’ll be such a great relief to us, so you don’t have to go import everything. And they’re having to pay such high prices, because the capitalist that make the medicines in USA charge them so extensively, and so they do in Britain, that they’ll be making their own medicine– medicines. Next.

Woman 12: I –

Jones: (interrupting) No one else get up, I said! No.

Woman 12: They will now be selling land to be cultivated, and–

Jones: What’s that?

Woman 12: They will now be selling land to be cultivated. You–

Jones: They’ll give you land.

Woman 12: They’ll give you land to cultivate here.

Jones: They’ll provide you land.

Woman 12: And also they were going to co-op– to have to teach –

Jones: If you’re a citizen.

Woman 12: –about co–ops and agriculture in the schools, too.

Jones: If you’re a citizen. You can’t go out here now and get land on your own. You have to remain on your cooperative. But uh, this is our land, so what the hell we need– we wouldn’t want– need any other land. Go ahead.

Woman 13: And uh, like Jimmy Stalin [James Cordell] said about people going to import stuff, Burnham said, that there’s lots of Guyanese in Britain and in the USA that want to come back to Guyana, and if they keep importing, they won’t have enough money to send them here, ’cause they can’t get their passports.

Jones: That’s right, that’s why he said we have to tighten our belt. That’s another half hour. Have to tighten our belt because– because there’re people now wanting to get back, and they haven’t been able to make enough money in Canada or England or America to get back. So the government can’t afford to send them the airfare until–

End of tape

Tape originally posted July 2011

Originally posted on June 16th, 2013.

Last modified on February 18th, 2016.
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