Q454 Transcript

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(Note: This tape was transcribed by Vicki Perry. The editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance.)

(Music plays in background throughout much of tape, making comprehension of much conversation – especially that of audience members – difficult.)

Jones: (unintelligible)– marriages. You don’t know the grief, you don’t know the heartache, you don’t know the pain, uh, so please don’t– don’t glorify it. Because I– I– I can tell you, I’m telling you to ease your mind, that uh, most of you here are combinations. (Unintelligible word) agreements that they will stay together for the cause’s sake. Now do you understand what I mean? Okay.

Judy Merriam: I understand that. And then as far as the child business go, I have– it’s not that –I already wanted to have children of my own, and I never did. And– (Pause)

Jones: Hmm? (unintelligible) about not having a child when–

Merriam: It’s stupid. It’s really stupid because– Well, one thing is stupid.

Jones: Why?

Merriam: I think that that– I mean– I’m gone tell you in one thing. Uh, I’m getting older. Another thing is, I don’t feel my genes– you know– I’m looking at all these points– it’s just– you know, I really couldn’t– I can’t stand kids that much. I like children, but I mean, you know, (Unintelligible word) to have them for 24 hours, I couldn’t take it.

Jones: I’m afraid you– I’m afraid, darlin’, that your talents are not in that area, and if you had a child, you would be mighty sorry if you had a child after a while.

Merriam: But– Yeah.

Jones: ‘Cause a child would be– a child with the present level of attention that you have and disturbance and uh, anxiety (Unintelligible word) impatience, the child would be a uh– emotionally disturbed child. I think I can talk blunt to you.

Merriam: Believe that.

Jones: So why bring another emotionally disturbed one in, ya know?

Merriam: That’s right. I don’t believe in doing that. I’ve worked these things out with myself and I get over it. You know? I don’t follow up on– on uh, something like that.

Jones: But I– I think most of us uh– we’d have to take a sharp look at the bringing in of children as to whether it’s been a blessing or– or not. So you’re not alone in that. But if you want a child, uh, there are, I suppose, ways to do that. Not to bring ‘em in, either. I saw a little child being advertised in Oakland, a very beautiful black child, I’ve spoke to a couple of people about it on that uh– Someone called me about it. Their office (Stumbles over words)– the name of that agency. Hmm?

Woman in background: (Unintelligible)

Jones: I don’t know. I think it was. A little– little black child– (Unintelligible word) I saw it– tur– tur– tur– they told me to turn the TV on and I saw it. Saw the child. Channel two. It was after a movie– movie had just finished. Dialing for Dollars, yeah, that’s it. Channel two and the– the child– uh, was uh, part black and white, and he’d been pushed from home to home to home. And he had numbers like that. He was such a gentle child. It showed in his face. I mean he had such uh, potential, I thought. So someone could look in– you have to have some (Pause) (Unintelligible word) situation that meets the approval of welfare, and it’s a little difficult up here to get by some of these welfare people, but anyway, uh, you start uh– there would be too much they could do to block it, I’d think. They do place children, on occasion, with single people. They– they prefer not, but I think they’re making, uh– bending to do that. But I don’t know if that would be your answer, child, I really don’t.

Merriam: I– I rather be doing other things– I wouldn’t want to be tied down like that.

Jones: Well, someone ought to look into that child. Someone in uh– someone ought to look into that child. Yes? I think they’re years. I think (Stumbles over words)– the agency who’d find maybe some other child– somebo– but the agencies are– they– they’re going to be hung up on years.

Woman in background: (Unintelligible)

Jones: We’ll– we’ll keep that in mind. We’ll keep that in mind. I think they would– the agency would want someone younger. Oughta circulate that through and tell them to look for a little mulatto– mulatto child who’d been pushed from foster home to foster home. He had curly hair and uh, lovely olive skin. But the most difficult to place are the mixed, you see. He– he almost looked white, in some ways, but his hair was so beautiful, you know, that uh, you could tell his blackness more in his hair. But nobody wanted him, either way. He was shoved from place to place. (Pause) Before you think about having children, we ought to explore those kind of possibilities. All right, uh, you think she’s competing with you. Is there any truth to that, Mary?

Mary Wotherspoon: I don’t– (Tsks) Why would I compete with her?

Jones: Well, that’s what I’m asking you.

Wotherspoon: – we’re two separate individuals. There’s no reason.

Jones: I wouldn’t think so.

Merriam: But having to give her job. She wants to work back at where I’m working now, and she resented in having to give up that and then– then I kept mine. And she didn’t really go for that.

Jones: Okay.

Wotherspoon: I said I enjoyed my job, and I would give anything for an eight-hour job where I could walk away from my responsibilities after eight hours is over with.

Jones: And I think if you had the administration of that entire home, Judy, you’d understand what she means.

Merriam: I– (unintelligible under Jones)

Jones: You’ve got to budget and you’ve got to maintain the– the books and all that. That’s what she’s saying. It’s just as simple– it’d be simple to be back in that kind of work.

Wotherspoon: I never said anything about the medicine program to you. I don’t ever remember saying anything.

Merriam: You did mention it one time.

Jones: Well, even if she did want to, that isn’t a resentment towards you. She is college material, she’s quite uh, educal person who makes– she does ex– ex– extre– extremely uh, high work achievement levels. Extremely high and she gave it up at more of a sacrifice than most young people would do. ‘Cause she had proven her college ability. But she’s doing it, you know. That’s the point. She is doing it.

Merriam: Going to college in evenings. So, that is an out of field for her.

Jones: Judy. My uh– it may be an out. It may be an out. But she’s got all of that work on her. She’s not going on to a college (unintelligible) capacity. It’s handicapping her considerably. It’s going to take her a long, long time to be able to finish at this rate. So you resented her in the con– I think the resentment’s on your part.

Merriam: And her going to college– it’s just feels like– she feels like she’s trapped and she can’t get out and she resents me having the freedom that I have of being out, to going to work, and then whatever.

Jones: Oh, you’re all wet. Now will you shut your damn mouth and get over there and do work and work like you can?

Merriam: Okay, but I do– I don’t think it’s right for her to call me up at work and then I just feel that I had to– because it’s no place to discuss problems.

Male: (unintelligible) –Judy didn’t show up when– (unintelligible)–

Jones: Didn’t do the chores, I agree that you p– uh, people shouldn’t be debating on the– on the job. I agree but uh, if you go off and leave something from moodiness uh–

Merriam: It wasn’t moodiness– I had planned on– on uh– I’m sorry. I had planned on doing the refrigerator when I came home–

Jones: Why don’t you leave a note to make it known what you were going to do? Why didn’t you say a word to her?

Merriam: She was asleep on the floor in the living room and I didn’t want to dis– I didn’t know if that would disturb her because the refrigerator is pretty close. (Pause) Mary, there was– it’s n– not that far away.

Wotherspoon: You could have closed the door. You could have closed the door. And beside the fact, if it woulda woke me up, I’d been glad to see you doing it. You know, I– I don’t care if I’m woken up.

Merriam: Uh, I wonder why you sleep in uh– in the living room when there was no one in the bedroom, that huge bedroom, and– but me when I came home. And the telephone, you didn’t sleep by the telephone, ‘cause the telephone was (Unintelligible word). I mean, uh, really, you know– I– I– this is really ridic–

Male: (unintelligible, interrupting Merriam)– the kitchen.

Merriam: This is– I don’t know.

Male: I think you’re–

Jones: How often does she do it?

Merriam: Sometimes–

Jones: How often does she do it? How often does she sleep on the floor?

Merriam: I don’t know, ‘cause I don’t keep track– I mean–

Jones: Well wha– what– what– what were– what are you trying to drive at? What is your problem– What’s so– What are you trying to drive at? She’s sleeping on the floor. So what– what?

Merriam: Waiting out there to see– (Unintelligible word)– to check up? I don’t know. I just feel like she’s testing me out or something, but I didn’t– I didn’t know.

Jones: She got all this time to test you out? (Pause) Judy, you’re quite a good worker, but you are paranoid to the nutty degree. And you need to just recognize that your paranoia is way out of hand. She got enormous load. If you don’t believe it, ask (unintelligible) to manage. It is enormous load.

Man’s voice in background: That’s right.

Jones: She’s a young woman, and it is confining, and she could be through college in a snap which now she’s got (unintelligible) and she won’t be able to.

Merriam: I understand that.

Jones: Okay. Well, will you just get some of this in control so that we can– What about this eating too much? You want to get on that? You were square by square five by five one time. And that uh– Don’t– don’t develop any of that patterns again. You’re too– You owe it to the cause not to do that.

Merriam: I did work (unintelligible word) yesterday and today.

Jones: Well, that’s good. And I see you’re gaining. And when you start gaining, you’re completely out of compliance. I never saw anything like you when you get– when you get on that thing.

Wotherspoon: She emptied a whole cookie jar in one night.

Crowd: (Responds)

Jones: What’s that? What’s that? What’d you say, Judy?

Merriam: It was in a weekend. (Pause)

Jones: Well, did you eat– did you empty a whole cookie jar?

Merriam: Yeah, but– I don’t know if you guys– (unintelligible under crying)

Scattered in background: (laughs)

Jones: Oh, laughing. Laughing. So, so, so they laugh. The laugh gonna hurt?

Merriam: (unintelligible under crying)

Jones: You don’t – you not been brought up here but– in years.

Merriam: (unintelligible) It’s a– It’s a cycle, and I– I’m not complaining about being brought up in here. An– an– it’s just that I could–

Jones: Fact is, the simple (unintelligible word) that happened, if it’s unpleasant enough, it may affect you not to eat. Only way you can shock people out of eating habits usually someone– some electro-shock or something unpleasant. You got to just uh– or you can give yourself permission by saying, “It looks like shit, it looks like shit” or mix something with it. If you have some food that bothers you, mix something bad tasting with it. And you have to cure yourself only by that kind of reaction. Some of these people are laughing– just (Stumbles over words)– make you feel bad. They’re not laughing at you. They’re laughing just to relax. What?

Merriam: Just like an alcoholic and I’m trying to–

Jones: (unintelligible)– I think– if your eating habit in some ways is worse. It uh– to fill up, to fill up, it’s a terrible thing. We sympathize with you, but you can’t uh– you can’t do that. You can’t get some melon on hand, we can get celery on hand, we can get uh, various things like that so that you can– if this compulsion hits you that you can’t handle it yourself, we maybe can work– work it out with some counseling. (Pause) The point is I hate for you to get up– give up and go back when you could do so much help– you keep things clean around here. If you do a little bit of that there and help in that area, to keep that place beautified, you could help our cause far more than you could imagine, Judy. ‘Cause it’s uh– it’s the one point we haven’t had enough time to get it up to par. (Pause) You want to help the cause, don’t you?

Merriam: Yes, and I wanted– I offered to do the washing and ironing, and whenever I start doing something regularly, then she starts doing it and then I get, you know, I have to look for uh– I know there’s plenty of work to do, but I mean I just feel like she’s taking too much away from me, and it’s not– and then– I don’t know, I just– you know, I mean– that I would– I enjoy doing that– it’s a uh–

Jones: Like to wash? The washing?

Merriam: Washing and folding–

Jones: Well, why don’t you let (Unintelligible word) do your wash? Why don’t you let her do washing?

Wotherspoon: She’s got regular chores, and washing I usually do during the day time when she’s not home, you know, to get it out of the way. I can’t save it for nighttime, I gotta do it right away when it gets off the bed– (unintelligible)

Jones: Yeah, that’s right, she’d have to–

Wotherspoon: I can’t let it sit around.

Jones: She couldn’t let urine– she couldn’t let the– she couldn’t let bed clothing sit around.

Merriam: Uh– I mean, like I could do it when I come home at night. I watered the lawn– it takes– I mean the garden– it takes about three hours. Did that almost every night. I’m not– I’m not– I’m not saying that I’m– I’m a hard worker–

Jones: She couldn’t in the summer– she couldn’t in the summer keep all those uh– keep all that clothing waiting around there ‘til you got home at night. Yes?

Woman: Umm, I help Mary with the washing in the day time.

Jones: Yes.

Woman: As Mary changed the beds and bathed the patients, then I put the clothes in the washing, and–

Jones: That’s the way it should be.

Woman: And then I fold the clothing, and if there’s anything left, usually we leave for Judy to put the clothing away. Put them up in their proper places. But I know that Judy works eight hours a day, and so I try to take on a lot to save Judy from doing too much at night, so she can get some rest.

Jones: So you must be– you must ask – good of you – ‘cause Judy’s never been lazy. But you also must not uh, take on things rec– recognizing your own limitation of years. Well, I don’t know uh, what can be done about the– the washing. I don’t see that they can let that washing wait ‘til the evening time.

Merriam: Uh, I know, now she tells me certain jobs to do. I wouldd like to keep my days to do them like I should here. Refrigerator, stove, twice a week–

Jones: Participate in this, or you’re going to get more counseling. We do this day after day, night after night. Every night in Los Angeles, all day Saturday night. So now participate in this. Everyone needs to know a little bit about their problems. Then you can– it’ll help you understand what it means to run a church. (Pause) You’ll have more empathy for other counselors. Go ahead.

Merriam: Let’s see– Oh. I– I said refrigerators and stoves. I was trying to keep them clean at least at least twice a week, you know, just checking on them. They should be in good condition, clean– except the one refrigerator in the (unintelligible) in our house and uh, then she sets up the schedule, she wants– like she wants me to clean it, on one day, the refrigerators, then on, you know– and I– I mean I felt I did better doing things on my routine, and then– and then–

Wotherspoon: (unintelligible)– clean the refrigerators, ‘cause I go shopping on Thursdays and I need it clean– (unintelligible)– I want it clean before– (unintelligible)

Merriam: Clean it on either Sunday or if I’m– af– after the weekend or Monday and Thursday.

Jones: Where’s Alice [Inghram]?

Wotherspoon: Judy, I think uh, the hospital has got to decide how things are– are done and–

Jones: We don’t always have to– We have to uh, run things according to uh, standards that are set from such nursing homes, and you can’t let things go till the person that had been cleaning work. So you ought to be glad to just do the things that– and there ought to be some extra time to clean the floors and polish and do something like that to help beautify that place.

Wotherspoon: I think uh, we’ll help set up a schedule and– and it will be abided by, by what it says. Uh, because that’s what we all have to do. We can’t pick and choose what we want to do. We have to do what is necessary to do. So we will go over it, taking into consideration everybody’s needs. But you’re going to have to understand that you have to do what is necessary to be done with what is there to be done. But we’ll get together on that. Okay? Thank you.

Jones: Will you be able to– will you be able to accommodate with this?

Merriam: Yeah, I’ll tr– I will.

Jones: You’ll try? Now look, you’re too (Unintelligible word). You’re too– you’re too– that’s the (unintelligible word) about moodiness or nervousness. You ought to do it with a little more patience. A little bit more accommodation sound in your voice. Sounds like snippy.

Merriam: The uh– council works, I will abide by their rules. I (unintelligible word) uh, because that way, then it’s a (Unintelligible word) for the whole household and– and there’s no question, you know– (voice fades)

Jones: All right, then council, take up the matters. It’s all been fair. That’s the best thing to do. Entire staff. (Pause) (deep sigh) Financial (Unintelligible word)– I want to hear from. (Pause) Well, it’s the first of the month and uh, something is amok. Something is wrong. Does anybody here that has anything that you have not turned in, in way of commitment or pledge– (tape edit) –offering that has been. Get up and say “I’m giving you uh, five dollars, ‘cause I didn’t have five dollars, or twenty dollars or fifteen dollars on the fifteenth of last month and I should’ve give and I’m going to do it now.” Shit, just giving it– you know. Just don’t go through all that. Just– just don’t– don’t take all the time. Some of you, it takes all so long to get around to five dollars. Just say I’ve got five dollars. On the pledge. You’ll say, I have five dollars on the pledge I made last month at seven o’clock at night when your ass was tired.

Crowd: (laughs)

Jones: –just say I got five dollars on pledge.

Man in crowd: Yeah!

Jones: You think that’s silly, but you listen to some of this. You take these offerings and listen to some of this, and that’s just exactly the way it comes. I made a five dollar pledge and I– I may say– I made one on the third and I made one on the seventh, and I’m paying five dollars on the one I made on the third, and I’ll pay you ten dollars on the one I made by the seventh if I don’t have fifteen dollars to pay you (unintelligible). That’s the way it comes out, and nobody understands what you’re talking about. And how many have heard something just about that silly coming from uh, off the floor?

Crowd: (agrees)

Jones: Time and again. I don’t want to hear that, ‘cause you tell me five on the third and ten on the seventh, by the time you get through with all that, nobody knows what you’re talking about. Just write. If you can’t write, we understand. Some of the most brilliant people. Ann, tell the– one– one of the ushers, they’ll write it down for you, they’ll be glad to do that. Then I’ll read it all. I read them, every blessed one anyway. So why do I want to hear it twice? ‘Cause I know it’s important that you le– let me know and that you know that I know. Well I– I will certainly say something to you if I’m questioning what you’re doing. Anyone else that has anything to give?

(tape edit)

Jones: –but that there’s no proof confirming what I said that all the grain had been used up. And that’s Senator [Hubert H.] Humphrey, is it? Yeah. Governor– I can’t read it. Anyway, s– uh, several people here that confirmed that they’re all out of food. (Pause) Twenty. (tape edit) I spoke it with a truth nonetheless. Please don’t in the future, give me such ex– explanations. You that are faithful, we have to put up with it– the people that don’t come to Wednesday who are not really of the household of faith or don’t come to Sunday’s special meetings, uh, we uh– we understand that from them. But if you will help me by not going into these elaborate explanations. And some of you are sitting right here that did it. So you know who you are. Just say quickly, I’m paying five dollars on a pledge or something, ‘cause if you write it out, I’ll see it anyway. All I’m interested in at the moment is to count the money. You see? And you can put all you want to in writing, I’ll read it, every bit. Five. How many’ll– (tape edit) –by the fact and I hope everybody in security hears this. Because you’ve got people sitting up in a tower. Women in a tower. Older men in a tower. And no means of transmitting to the front part of this office. It’s been broke for days. Don’t impress me by closing these curtains. If you were really concerned about the body, you would put the focal point– you would put uh– you’ve got some new uh– I’ve got uh, sh– uh, shades. You’da had it over here often. It doesn’t take very much to get it and put it up. But don’t impress me by cutting off my air– my people. That’s uh– there– there– there I sit. I want air in here. And all you had to do was get a little cheap shade and put up back there, but you don’t think about it, so don’t impress me by not, uh, uh, leaving windows open. I hope I make myself very clear. And I am chagrined and disturbed and upset that you would put somebody in the tower. Why argo up in the tower for? What if somebody come up there with a– a force of people? What would we do? They have no weapon, they have no means of communicating to the front. What could they do? Just sit there and scream. (Pause) By God, I’ll tell ya, you better get sophisticated. I was talking to the chief of police today and– about different methods, and he got some of the detectives there letting us know sophisticated way of– ways they’ve got of getting in. But we’re trying to do as much as we can about it, but at least we could get the things that we have to work. Who’s gonna see that– that transmitter or whatever the hell it was for out there is going to get fixed? Hmm?

Man in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: Okay, Joe. You taking notes down there? (Pause) I’m gone get mighty pissed, now folks, I’m gone get mighty pissed. I have said– Now where is the person that’s taking notes? Well, let me know. Let me know. Let me know who it is, so I don’t have to see through a wall. (Pause) You all give the impression somehow that I’m God, which is not– (unintelligible) She’s not writing, she’s not writing. So she (Unintelligible word) I see through the wall. I have to see through here to know she’s writing. Tell me who’s writing. (Pause) Who else will sacrifice too? (unintelligible) Sister Conray had given five hundred dollars to the church. That was the week before, and she had to go to Oklahoma, ‘cause her relatives were dying. One of them died and the other one was dying. And we raised three hundred there. You’da thought no one had any money at all, but fifty of us, or sixty of us, got three hundred together. So please, if you care now, give two. By the way, I don’t want no– I don’t want any more itemized budget. In– In dollars (Stumbles over words)– specifically tell me if it’s dollars or Guyanese. And it makes a lot of difference. One time it’s just a dollar sign. I don’t know whether to talk about dollars or Guyanese. I have to worry about every expense that goes out of here, and then they spend so crazy it’s something else. Appreciate you, brother, coming up tonight, say, well, we’ve got to go down to Los Angeles, one of the workers to straighten out matters on this trip. I said, can’t we get somebody to do it down there without paying the fare with an airplane trip down there and an airplane back. And I just can’t keep up with it these days. It’s just so much going out that uh, no matter how– what I raise, it just seems it goes out fast as I can raise it. And it’s not for foolishness. And I appreciate that uh, brother Carter was the one tonight said, well, I won’t do it, I’ll try to find some other way. It may be more hours of work. Because people won’t follow through down there. And that’s the truth. Some of you have to send– we got the best of Los Angeles – except a few little steady ones that stay down – the best of Los Angeles moved up here. We got a lot of followers down in Los Angeles, but very few workers. Unfortunately. Anybody else gonna give two, to help us out? We’re far short of what we need.

Scattered voices: (unintelligible)

Jones: Shades down. Electronic equipment bought that won’t work, and I’ve been wantin– and it goes on for days. Goes on for days, it doesn’t work. Looks like somebody’d make enough noise about that. One or two people can’t get everything done about this. How many been using that tower since that thing hasn’t worked? Didn’t you ever think– uh, didn’t you ever think about it, that what good would it do you to be up there? (Pause) Uh, I think a thing like that goes more than one service, it ought to be brought up publicly if there isn’t something done about it.

Voice in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: What’s that?

Voice in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: He says, the organist says that they weren’t working when she used them either.

Voice in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: Well, uh, security meeting, uh, Jim. Jim, in security meeting, you’ll resolve this, will you, people.

Voice in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: Two. The las–

(tape edit)

Woman’s voice: –(Unintelligible word) foot.

Crowd: (Cheers and applause)

Jones: That’s pretty good for eighty-six. You haven’t even got a corn on your foot.

Man in background: That’s right.

Jones: We would like to thank uh, Justine Anderson and her husband, Arnold Anderson for faithful and consistent being on their security post every weekend night from twelve to three. They have not missed one night and surely deserve praise. Are they present? Yes, back there.

Crowd: (Scattered applause)

Jones: That’s them back there. Stand up there. Keep standing ‘til they see you. Keep standing. They have not missed one night and surely deserve praise for carrying such a (Unintelligible word) heavy responsibility, with many other duties. We do thank you. Jessie Lynchner of San Francisco deserves praise. Present? If they’re present, please stand, automatically. And see that it is mentioned again. For consistently volunteering her time to help with church projects whenever needed. She’s always in good spirits and is a good help. She volunteers time at Marie Sadler’s rest home. Helps Sandy Jones at her project– w– with her projects and uh, will soon be helping Ruby Carroll at her shop that’s being set up for the benefit of the cause. Now see that that’s read again. The Shulars [David and Janet Shular] are– the Shulars have been praised that their home is always open, I don’t seem to find it– but that– that their home is open, and they’re always so helpful to people when they come and have needs and they’re always friendly to receive people. We’re very appreciative of that.

Crowd: (Scattered applause)

Jones: We wish to– The children’s home wants to thank all church’s who– junior high school members who came out and helped weed our gardens. Thank you for your hard work and cooperative spirit. We welcome and appreciate your help anytime. How many went out to help with the children’s home? How many of you here helped? Stand up, please, as is always the function, stand up. How many helped? I saw a young woman back there that held her hand up. I said stand up. I mi– I demand cooperation, even for praise. Your humility is admired, but I’ve got to have cooperation. Is she the only one that helped? Well, thank you. Thank you very much.

Crowd: (Applause) (Pause)

Jones: Dave [Shular] shared a home in San Francisco with others. To walk into your home is a pleasure, because your teachings are sharing joyfully– joyfully is felt. In– In an unselfish, unvibrations confront you. The children and teenagers who live there feel free because they are in the home of two people, black and white, married, who live your teachings as opposed to talk. We do commend you for that.

Crowd: (Applause)

Jones: It’s good to see Stephan Jones helping to clean the San Francisco Temple. Sunday morning early. You demonstrate your teachings of equality and should be commended. (unintelligible)

Crowd: (Applause) (Pause)

Jones: (unintelligible, away from microphone) Keep these, what I believe. I got so much in here. (Pause) You hear what I said? Did you hear what I said about the biologicals, the gener– the chemicals now that can be given (Unintelligible word) based on the uh, proteins that are in our black and Indian nation? And would kill off just the blacks and the Indians? This is being discussed extensively and in the paper today, it was referred to earlier this week in the Chronicle. Did you hear what I said? Now, everyone should be working hard for the Promised Land. And that’s madness, folks. You don’t know what they’re cooking up when they uh– If they admit that much to you, you can bet it’s a lot more. (Pause) How many turned in their voting uh, slip today? How many could’ve voted and did not? (Pause) Why was it too late? What do you mean too late? Huh?

Voice in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: Well, I– I– I (Unintelligible word) instructed the secretaries uh, to see that this was done. Now what–

Voice in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: I’m not talking about registration. I– I called especially the day of– of voting and said I want to see that we had to coordinate to get everybody in here. What do you– The whole household didn’t get to vote? (Pause) Who did not vote? What’d you say, Jewel?

Voice in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: What’s that?

Female voice in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: You weren’t registered? Well, get registered. One– one– when will you be able to register? Next week? How many did not vote? How man– uh, due to registration, if it was not registration, you don’t need to hold your hand up again. How many could’ve voted and did not vote? (Pause) That means you’ll have to register again. Why– why, Chris, did you not vote? (Pause)

Chris Rozynko: We were depending on Jane Mutschmann’s car to come back so that we could leave again for the valley to vote, and uh, when I got home, her car wasn’t there and uh, I waited for a while for– for Kathy Grauman to come back and then use her car. Finally, the car got ba– got back but it was– it was broken down, so we couldn’t take that and uh, it was getting– let’s see, all the cars in the dormitories were busted down also. And uh–

Jones: Every car in San Francisco bun– busted down?

Rozynko: Every car in our dormitories.

Jones: Was every car in San Francisco busted down?

Rozynko: That’s– I could have uh, made more of an effort to get ahold of other cars, which I didn’t do, uh– mainly– mainly–

Jones: (unintelligible)

Rozynko: It was in San Francisco. Mainly though, uh, uh, I waited ‘til the last moment, you know, before I really uh, took the time to find another car. And that’s why we didn’t (Unintelligible)

Jones: Those votes were mighty important. If we hadn’t had the right, the thing happened that I projected Sunday night here that we do, we’d be in real trouble.

Woman’s voice: Uh, why–

Jones: Uh, by the way, you don’t tell anyone ho– how you voted when you go out of here, you understand? Fortunately one went just exactly like I said it would go, if you went and did it and some of you griped about doing it, but it worked out.

Woman’s voice: I think those of you that were clear in San Francisco should have obtained absentee ballots being in school, rather than uh, trying to spend money on gas to come all the way up here.

Jones: It’s very easy to get an absentee ballot. Next time let’s do that, hey? (Pause) You know, Agnes, who is from Africa, who has been used to being waited on, been the tribal chief’s daughter, she’s studying to be a nurse and she studies ten to eleven hours a day. She’s done many math problems that weren’t assigned just for practice, and I asked her teachers if she would do special projects for extra credit. English is a foreign language to her, but in spite of this, her grades are very good grades. Very high grades. Agnes used to have servants, so of course she didn’t want to do chores. When she heard about how servants in America are cheated and mistreated, she changed overnight to do her chores promptly and willingly. She even reminds me about mine, and that’s good. I mentioned that Sunday night. I think it’s good to mention it again. Is Agnes here tonight? (Pause) Oh, yes, this is exam week. You know, the chief– but we’re– we’re sponsoring this young lady from Africa here. But we’re glad, ‘cause she was– she was spoiled rotten when she came to this society, as they are often who are of the privileged class back in Africa. But she’s got– gotten a hold of it, they say, and doing– had so many fears too. They were afraid that– She was afraid of everything because she hadn’t been in contact with life. And so she’s made real growth. And we can’t get some of our folk to do ten or eleven hours of anything in a day, much less her studies alone ten to eleven hours a day. And we all knew we were servants when we started. Didn’t we, honey? (Pause) Caroline Coleman should be praised for being the only one quiet on bus eight coming back from LA. She was the only out of fifty people, Violet Jones says this. What do you mean the only one out of fifty people? Ought to stop that bus. Who is– where is Caroline Coleman? She here? Let’s study– Violet Jones? Let’s study this. What’s the meaning of letting fifty people get carrying on and there’s only one person quiet? Hostesses are supposed to do something about that. You can’t do it, get ahold of the next bus. Get a hold of the lead bus. We’ll stop. We don’t go all the way back with fifty people carrying on. That’s anarchy. That’s revolution. Without a cause. People trying to get home and rest that night with only one person true. I– I’m appreciative of her being true to the principle, but I’m sorry to hear that– (Stumbles over words) who’s the driver of this bus?

Woman’s voice: (Unintelligible word) a teenager’s not gonna go.

Jones: Okay. Well then, one of the teenagers (Unintelligible word) a daughter and she– they should have been brought to tow. You should have brought them to tow, Melvin [Johnson].

Melvin: What I did was uh– af– the hostesses and uh, uh, you know– and some of the grownups tried to quiet them down, and they were getting a bunch of feedback so I told them that if they didn’t straighten out that I would contact the– the– the head bus and we’d pull out– we’d have– have to go off the road to deal with it, you know, if I just couldn’t get no uh, consideration, you know. So uh, they did quiet down some, but that was uh, one or two people who were just uh, totally rebellious and didn’t want to uh– just didn’t want to give in whatsoever, and they didn’t want to get back in their seat, they wanted to braid somebody’s hair. And uh, you know– you just–

Jones: I say, silence and I mean silence, and if you can’t get it, you stop the bus and you call the lead bus, we’ll pull it to halt and we’ll get silence if we have to knock some heads.

Crowd: (Applause)

Jones: Gail Symington. Due to mismanagement of the council, we apologized to you earlier, but we want to finish this because you were put in a bad spot by being brought up, so we w– want to finish the uh– correcting this. Uh, Alice, one of our counselors and a very good worker in this church, would like to bring Gail up publicly for bringing three girlfriends on Friday when she was told not to. Explicitly told not to. Alice left a message that she could not have the girls over, but she tried to get Shirley to bring these girls home. Shirley rebuk– refused because of what Alice had instructed. Gail got Edith Bogue to bring her and three girlfriends to the house anyway. Alice feels that what she did was rude, uncalled for and insulting, and feels that all should be brought on the floor for this. Who– who’s rude uh, and insulting, you mean she or uh, the other parties involved? You mean uh, Edith Bogue too? Did the– Did the girls know?

Woman’s voice: No, they didn’t know. It’s all my fault, everything.

Jones: Did they all know it?

Woman’s voice: No, they didn’t know.

Jones: They didn’t know it.

Woman: Uh-uh [No].

Woman in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: What’s that? Thank you, darling. Thank you.

Woman in background: I feel they did too because–

Jones: She said they all knew. She said they all knew.

Woman in background: In the weekend meeting, they all were pretty snotty to me.

Jones: They what?

Woman in background: In the weekend meeting, when they got to the city, they were pretty– their attitudes were pretty nasty, and I couldn’t figure out why until I talked to uh, Claudia and Shirley for what had happened.

Woman in background: (unintelligible)– at the– at the uh, church, and uh, they got in my car, and Gail said that she would uh, spend the night down at the lodge (unintelligible)– ‘cause it was supposed to’ve been a party.

Jones: Well, it’s going to be a nice party out here. There’s going to be a party from six to eight tomorrow night at the gardens for you darlings, and there’s going to be a party started Monday that you going to be here, uh, there’s going to be a party, cleaning up buses. We’re calling a party. And it’s eight o’clock Monday morning, and we’ll just easily dispose of that case, and that goes on for at least uh– uh, this is not an offense serious as some, but it’s serious when you call into a business. She could lose her license for such actions as this, so we’re– you’ve got one month of this. Case is uh, judged and juried and closed and finished and shit on all in one blow.

Crowd: (Applause)

Jones: Don’t have to hear any excuses. Got all their names. Go over to the secretary and get their names down, and they sign on the dotted line, they’ll be uh, in the garden tomorrow at six, won’t we? If we won’t, then we should, because it’ll be worse the next time. Taking advantage of people like this. She has to work her– her bottom off. She’s one of the best workers in this place. Don’t do that no more, Gail. And all the rest of ya acting like you didn’t know what it was about. Why did you say they didn’t know about it?

Woman in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: (Stumbles over words) How did you know that they knew?

Woman in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: Yes, yes. She said you don’t, and– and you said you did and I– I think you uh, had some basis for saying that.

Woman: Um, when Glenda and those guys came over to the school, they were talking about it, and we were all going to go there, but Mom said that we couldn’t. And then I came down here and I don’t know what happened after that. Everybody knew about it in our household. And we were all told not to go by our mother.

Jones: Yeah, well ya see? What you gotta say for that?

Woman in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: Well you shoulda heard what she said, ‘cause you accused her of being a liar.

Voice in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: She said that everybody in that house over there knew, and her– her mother said for her not– for you not to go. She didn’t go the rest of you in, that’s what she said. Yes.

Woman’s voice: She told– Gail told me that Alice said that it was okay for me to come over, but then she– she– she let uh, Louis in and Dorothy come over too. She told me that Alice wanted to go too.

Jones: Well, I– I’ve not found you on the wrong side of trouble you all think– but you– you should– you shouldn’t take that from a child. We’ve told here, it’s been public knowledge, and I know that’s it since you’ve been here, that if you are invited, be sure it’s cleared with the parents. That’s a rule here. Isn’t that right?

Crowd: Right!

Jones: He said right, whatever, and he wants us to go home. Right? Uh–

Voice in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: What’s that?

Woman in background: I said I was in council the night before, I was keeping her down–

Jones: What?

Woman in background: – and I was supposed to let her go. You know, start letting her go out.

Jones: You were told to let her go where? Where (cut off by woman)–

Woman in background: I was letting her go, you know (unintelligible under Jones)–

Jones: You weren’t told– You weren’t told specifically to let send her to Alice’s– You stand up until we finish, darlin’.

Woman’s voice: Just to let her go, you know, different places.

Jones: People don’t know anything about respect. You know, you give a honky judge more respect than you give your own leader that would die for you? You people won’t come up, you have to be coached, you sit down, and you’re not– It’s not just you, it’s just been a general thing, but I’m going to refer to it. We just won’t stand up, we should stand up until we’re dismissed. ‘Cause it’s not– and you’re not giving me any special attention, you’re giving order to this house. And the government can’t survive, unless it has some order and respect.

Woman’s voice: I’m sorry.

Jones: Thank you. That’s good. Now you weren’t told specifically to send your child to Alice’s over the next nine days.

Woman’s voice: No, not– just not in her house.

Jones: All right, well, still. Then it should be your duty to clear it with the parent whether it’s a mutual thing. Parents to clear with the parent. ‘Cause we had some of that, my children in my home, a lot of them doing that way. It’s supposed to be clear. So by the way, clear– Christine, when it’s all right for you– for– for one of my children to be in your home, please let me know in writing, will you? Yeah, I– I know you’re busy, and we can’t always see, but let me know if– ‘cause uh, I do not wish to be sending children someplace or having children coming in unless it’s okay on the other end. It’s too tough. (Pause) CJ [Jackson] and Cleve Davis are organizing the donations of furniture, china and appliances. CJ is keeping very accurate records and packing them neatly in temporary storage. He’s doing a very responsible and careful job. Thank you. Are they– Is he here? Is he here?

Crowd: (Applause)

Jones: Is Cleve Davis here? I don’t– I don’t see them. (Pause) Hmm? What? What is it? Did Cleve Davis hear what I said?

Woman’s voice: Yes, Cleve’s right there.

Jones: Did you hear what I said? CJ and Cleve Davis are organizing the donations of furniture, china and appliances. CJ is keeping very accurate records and packing them neatly in temporary storage. He is doing a very responsible– they are doing a very responsible and careful job. So you tell CJ too, will ya?

Crowd: (Applause)

Jones: Maybe she’ll take this– No more bad talk to Mother [Georgia Lee] Lacy. I’ve got more– more uh, criticism up here for the way Mother Lacy’s being treated. And you children better get on the ball. It’s working in the garden. I want no back talk to her. (Pause) Is it understood? That’s taken care of. That’s taken care of. (Pause) Dear Counselor. (Unintelligible word) By Georgie. Today at school Tommy Kice said he was– he wished that he was the only church member in the school. And I said why, and he said because I hate church members. (Unintelligible) (Pause) Get– get him in counseling. It’s more complicated than this. (unintelligible) (Pause) I’m trying to clean up some business tonight, you know. We don’t want to have another one of these for a– a little while, hopefully that way. The incident uh, happened about four months– uh, let me see– summary– four months in LA– uh, Wayne Pikes was playing karate in front of small children. Andrea Martin told him to stop. He stopped it for ten minutes, started again. He was told to stop again and then when– she was bending over a suitcase when he kicked her in the lower part of her spine. She has had pain, and the doctor now has to put her in traction three times a week. Where is Wayne Pikes? (Pause) In traction, man. The hell you doing? You know we’re told not to do karate.

Wayne: (unintelligible)– karate– doing–

Jones: (angry voice) Well, let’s get down to the last part of it. Did you kick your sister in the spine?

Wayne: Yep.

Jones: She’s going to a doctor now, a specialist and has to have it– has to be in traction three times a week. With all of our enemies, and you put a hand to one of our sisters? You know that’s one of the strongest rules in this assembly. You don’t touch a comrade! You don’t touch her! (Pause) We get our wrath clear to the bone. We got enough people beating on us outside, we do not touch one another. To do so is the worst sin in this house.

Man in crowd: That’s right!

Jones: You get your– who’s the– responsible parent, come up here and sign. You’re going to get yours. You’re going to get some on your bottom side. Plus some other things. Can you report– What is it?

Voice in crowd: (unintelligible)

Jones: Had to stop him? [Christine] Bates? Mother Bates had to stop you in a fight church, Sunday?

Voice in crowd: (unintelligible)

Jones: Well, she saw you.

Voice in crowd: (unintelligible)

Jones: If you sign this uh– this release? We gonna get his bottom side gingered.

Woman: Uh, Wayne has also been kicked out of the Redwood Valley School and cannot return there and uh, the people that are– he’s living with want to move to the Valley but they have to wait now until summer because they can’t move, ‘cause they can’t transport Wayne back to Ukiah, back and forth.

Jones: He’s kicked out of the Redwood Valley School. (Stumbles over words)– where are you people at? This ought to have been a public matter, before now. Hmm?

Wayne: (unintelligible)

Jones: Kicked out? That was made public on the floor?

Wayne: Yes.

Jones: You just do– keep on trying us, don’t you?

Wayne: I didn’t kick her on purpose, it was an accident–

Jones: Let me tell you man–

Wayne: – somebody– somebody made me mad, I was kicking–

Jones: Let me tell you, man. Don’t give me no shit. Don’t you give me no shit. It’s no accident when you kick somebody’s spine. (Pause) You put somebody in traction. You had to kick hard. You don’t just– It wasn’t just an ordinary kick, and it wasn’t an accident. You can say– you can say you didn’t mean to hurt her, but don’t tell me it’s an accident. Accident means that you do something that you couldn’t avoid. You had to lift your damn foot to kick her.

Voice in background: I had just told them. They were running around, and small children in there, and you know, it coulda been one of them that coulda been hurt. But you know, he kept on running around, and so finally, you know, he kicked– you know, kicked me but he wasn’t paying no attention when I was there in the first place, you know. We was running around having a little fun.

Jones: You get him to garden, too. Six o’clock tomorrow. And you– And get him to the uh– indefinitely. On the– on the– the buses, cleaning, and that sort of thing. Brothers, you’re getting the case run down on these, aren’t you? (Pause) Hmm? You’re watching and you’re listening? You got different levels of uh, consciousness here. How many should he get? Church?

Voices in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: Ten? He’s been kicked out of the school. He’s been– he– he’s been– he’s been– he kicked his sister after doing karate in front of children and going on for ten minutes when he should not have done so. Now you people– you people don’t want to give ten. You know– you know what? You people that don’t want to give anything, and some of you that want to do it mild, you are the worst enemies they’ve got.

Crowd: (Responds)

Jones: Because when they get in the jail, you won’t get them out. If anybody does, it’ll have to be me. And I’m overworked.

Crowd: (Applause, cheers)

Jones: Peace.

Voice in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: He’s gonna get more than a whippin’. Who said– He’s gonna get more than a whippin’. That’s right. I agree with that wholeheartedly. A whipping’s too easy.

Voice in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: Yes, I think that’s app– appropriate matter. You ought to get some chores and help work– pay– pay for the uh, medical bills. (Pause) Do you have any quarrel with what we’re doing? Yeah.

Woman: No, uh– He doesn’t get a– a allowance that often.

Jones: No. I’m not talking– I’m not talking about that. He– he– he– he can find some ways. Yeah, he can find some jobs. Yes. Where you getting it?

Wayne: Uh, at school, a girl I go to work with (unintelligible)– her father (unintelligible)

Jones: Where was your father?

Wayne: (unintelligible)– working– (unintelligible)

Jones: Won’t solve your problem. You don’t need to work for your father. You need– My boys uh– In my house, when they get a job– (unintelligible)– How old are you?

Wayne: 14.

Jones: Hmm?

Wayne: 14.

Jones: 14. What’s that?

Wayne: (unintelligible)

Jones: You can mow lawns and do stuff around here. You ought to go around here and knock on some doors and ask if you can mow some lawns. You don’t need to be tripping around with your father. I don’t think that’s any answer.

Man: I don’t think so either. I think he wanted to–

Jones: (interrupting man) Not– not to come back here on September at least. I don’t want to see nobody th– th– you– you gonna have to make some changes, man.

Woman in background: He won’t be able to do any work with his father because his father’s working at the laundry and they’ve all grown upstairs, so he won’t be able (unintelligible). Uh–

Jones: (unintelligible)

Woman: But what he can do is, if– if he lived in San Francisco, getting around there collect– uh, if he can’t find a job– collect uh, uh, copper and so forth or paper, or, you know, sell it.

Jones: I’m afraid to let him in the streets collecting copper right now. I think he don’t know enough about life yet. I think he’d get himself in lots of trouble. (Pause) I don’t think he needs to be in no big city, honey. But he may be there. He may be– Excuse me– (unintelligible) I’m sorry. Did I bump– (unintelligible). Uh, uh, I don’t a– yes– I can–

Voice from crowd: (unintelligible)

Jones: Well, let’s look into that now. Let’s look into that. How many feel he should get ten?

Voices from crowd: (unintelligible)

Jones: How many feel he should get less ten?

Voices from crowd: (unintelligible)

Jones: What’s that?

Voices from crowd: (unintelligible)

Jones: All right, all right. Sister Tucker, you’re going to have to give some of them. Stand up here. You want ten? How many think he should get fifteen?

Voices from crowd: (unintelligible)

Jones: How many feel he should get more?

Voices from crowd: (unintelligible)

Jones: Shh. No laughing at this stage. Serious business. Majority is– the majority is twenty. Sister Tucker, you’re going to have to give some of them because you’ve been– you didn’t want to give them strongly enough– dol– doll. So, come on up. What’s that?

Voice from crowd: (unintelligible)

Jones: What is she saying?

Woman in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: You didn’t say you could give (Unintelligible word)?

Voices from crowd: (unintelligible)

Jones: Okay, okay. Ten good licks. Okay, we’ll give– we’ll gonna give (Unintelligible) good licks. We’ll find somebody to do it. Who’ll volunteer for the job?

Woman in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: Hmm?

Woman: (microphone comes on) –make a suggestion that–

Jones: Yes.

Woman: Uh, this– this belt– not go get the job done, and it’s only– ju– uh, just toughen their bottom. If you get them some plum switches–

Crowd: (Stirs)

Woman: – like my mother used to put on me–

Crowd: (Applause)

Woman: She– she would get three of ‘em and plat ‘em together and she would leave (unintelligible) on ‘em.

Jones: What’s that?

Woman: My mother would get three plum switches, and she’d leave the little limbs on it and she would plat ‘em like a brush broom and she– she’d work on this part with it, and believe me that– that will make you think twice before you– you do something again.

Crowd: (Responds)

Woman: Only child, and it– and she did it to me– It didn’t kill me.

Jones: Why don’t– why don’t you– We’ll assign you to get us one of those switches, but I’m not gonna put him off. I wouldn’t do that to anybody to put him off, so tonight we’ll go by the belt, but you get us the switches, will you? You get us the switches and we’ll see. We’ll– We’ll study it. I agree. A switch– in some ways a switch is not as dangerous, ‘cause uh, a switch just– it just makes some sores. You don’t hit the right place with a belt, then it– ‘cause I’ve taken whippings for children that are conscientious. I’ve taken– I’m not taking a whipping for you, lad. That’s one of the worst things I can testify to, and I won’t take one, because I’ve taken plenty, but I’m not taking a whippin’ for you. When you show me you feel more, like your mother. Your mother’s a good person. She set a good example. And I don’t understand why you would uh, kick a sister. I don’t understand why you’d kick anybody. Period. Okay. Who– Yes. Yes.

Woman: No.

Jones: Yes.

Woman: Well, I would like to say that uh, last time he was up here, he got ten licks and it didn’t do any good whatsoever, so I feel for those who think he should get ten licks, that’s out. I feel he should get more than ten licks.

Crowd: (Applause)

Scattered in crowd: So do I!

Jones: Okay. Thank you.

Woman: You know, I’d like Wayne to know that uh, he has really let me down, because I– I struggled so hard to get him out up here, and he come up here and failed, when his dad (Unintelligible word) uh, didn’t want him here, like he doesn’t want him here, he wants him home for the summer. And when he do something like this– you know, he likes–

Jones: Well, that’s you– that’s not your problem. It’s uh– You’re– you’re doing your part. It’s the father that’ll be sending him to jail, if he’s going. I can see what the trouble is. So you’re doing– you’re doing your part, and if he doesn’t listen to this, and he’s got the same goodness that’s in you, but a house divided, it always ends up the child losing. Just like Mom Jones tried to hold the line, and Papa Jones didn’t do what was the best thing for the child. Papa Jones didn’t– didn’t love the child by going along with the child. He wanted to love the child, but it was Mom Jones and his mother that went along with– with their discipline. Love gives discipline. It’s not your fault. We don’t judge somebody here by who they’re related to. You’re in this family, and you have done the best you can. You’ve got him here, now it’s up to him. And uh, if he wants to stay at home and go with his father, whatever, that’s all right, but (Stumbles over words) he’ll have to work under our jurisdiction if he’s to stay around here. And he’s going to have to take this lickin’. Who’s gon– who’s volunteering to give that lickin’? There’s 20, I think. That’s what the congregation voted on.

Man in crowd: Don Jackson.

Jones: Yes? Excuse me.

Don Jackson: With Wayne, it’s difficult to talk to him when he’s making a lot of noise and everything. He acts like he wants to whip you.

Jones: Oh?

Crowd: (Stirs)

Jones: He thinks he’s– he thinks he’s that tough? He told you– (Stumbles over words) Brother [Jack] Beam said you told him about that.

Man in crowd: (unintelligible)

Jones: Aren’t–

Man in crowd: (unintelligible)

Jones: S-h-h. That’s– that was the blood talking too, that’s his family. Hmm? (Pause) Yes?

Man in crowd: Wayne– Wayne, you should feel ashamed, ‘cause you’ve got your little brother doing the same thing. He hits me and kicks me.

Crowd: (Responds)

Jones: How’d he– I bet he’d do it one time. Where’s he at? Where’s he at?

Crowd: (Responds)

Jones: Teaching him how to do karate. Who’s he learning karate? You’re not in a karate class, are you? This young man in a karate class?

Boy’s voice in background: (Unintelligible)

Jones: You stay out of karate. You get the spirit before you get any karate. Where is that lad? Bring him up here– get him up here. Bring him up here. Wake him up– (Unintelligible word)– (cries out) Get him up here, by God! Wake him up. Slap him uh, on the bottom side. Wake him up. Put some water in his face. (speaks away from microphone) Give him a drink so he’ll wake up? (cries out) Hey! (Pause) (Voice moderates) You ought to feel sorry, brother, that you’re setting an example like that. Starting kickin’ his grandmother at this hour– age. Hold him up there. Somebody hold him up there. (Pause) Hey! You hear me? (Pause) Hey, buddy. Anthony, do you hear me? You been kicking your grandmother and hitting at your grandmother? Well, she said you have.

Anthony: (unintelligible)

Jones: You don’t do that anymore, you hear me? You hear me? You don’t hit anybody any more. You understand me, Anthony? (Pause) Give him five healthy ones. (Unintelligible word) Yeah, he needs it. (Pause) Okay. Five– five he gets. Who’s giving these? Don’t you give no more ideas like you gone fight with nobody, or you’ll– the next time, we’ll get somebody put gloves on you. I know a little about bo– bo– about boxing. I can teach somebody how to box. Say, you know some karate. But you won’t use any karate when we’re around.

Boy’s voice in background: (unintelligible) –teach him no karate.

Jones: What?

Boy: I didn’t teach him no karate.

Jones: Don’t you get no smart ass with me. What’s the matter with you? You speak to me kind, man. You just get your– You just get your mouth kind.

Crowd: (Stirs)

Jones: Don’t you get, you know (Unintelligible) karate. Don’t you put you no hands on your hips.

Boy: Yes sir.

Jones: You got a surly mouth, man, and you’ve got a bad attitude. (Pause) Which– which black uh, brother uh, will– uh, will take this on?

Crowd: (Stirs)

Jones: Oh, yeah. He knows how to do it. (Unintelligible) with the baby first (unintelligible). (Pause) And listen, Anthony. When you’re asked to be seated in church, you don’t give us no trouble any more. Someone hold him. Someone hold the child, so there won’t be any mix up and they get hit right. I want him hitting the bottom. No place– She’ll sign it– She– (unintelligible) She’ll sign it. Ain’t no problem there.

(Pause) (Sound of spanking)

Jones: Give it to him. Not getting there. (Pause) That not quite enough. (Stumbles over words) – this– it sticks with them sometimes– (unintelligible word)– It’s all right. It’s finished now. Said five, five, five. It’s important that we keep our word, but uh, put some more ginger to it. Twenty. (Pause) Don? (Pause) Shh. Get out of the way. Sit down and out of the way. Part of it’s the humiliation more than the physical pain. So all of you that are standing up, get out of the way. Get out of the way. Sit down. All of you sit down. Out of the way.

(Sound of spanking)

Jones: Low. Low. You want to hit low. Seven. Eight. Nine. Ten. Eleven– You stay over here, it’ll be better for you, son. Twelve. Thirteen. Fourteen. Fifteen. Sixteen. Seventeen. Just bend over, it’ll be better for you. Eighteen– nin– (unintelligible)– nineteen, twenty. Now what do you have to say, son?

Wayne: I’m sorry. (unintelligible).

Jones: Well, that was pretty patient. That was a pretty patient response. You get through to this. We’re trying to keep you out of trouble. You can’t fight the world, wayne, you can’t fight this world. Only together, cooperating. And you did the worst thing was to hit your sister. Or kick her. You coulda injured– (Unintelligible) injure her. So you work to get some money to help here. If that doctor’s putting her in traction, three times a week, she’s got some injury to her spine. If she gets any healing, it’ll be me. And you’re gonna have to help.

Wayne: (unintelligible)

Jones: Well, we don’t know, ‘cept every time you go to the doctor, it’s ten, fifteen dollars a time. So you just– you just get out there and make some money, and we’ll see. I’ll see what I can do about the condition too.

Wayne: (unintelligible word) I’d like to thank you for (unintelligible). It coulda been worse (unintelligible).

Jones: Yes, I’m sure it coulda been much worse. But you see, if that had not been a sister, you’d already be in jail. She’da filed a complaint. Do you know what you’da been charged with? Assault and battery, with intent to kill. When you use your foot, it’s always– that’s– they can lay that charge (Unintelligible word). And you would be up the river. They’d keep you– They got George Jackson, slightly older, but about your age, and just got out of juvenile right into prison. They just passed him right on in to prison. He never did see the light of day till they killed him. Son, please, know we’re trying to help you. We’re not trying to be mean. We’re trying to help you, because the man won’t beat on your ass. He’ll beat your head, he’ll beat your eyes. Many of our brothers– There’s three of our brothers knived in prison this week. Yesterday. Down, right down off of– off of San Quentin– Three knived. One day, yesterday. All right. Tomorrow report, six to eight. Hmm?

Wayne: (unintelligible)

Jones: Yeah. Six to eight. Eight o’clock, Monday morning, to the busses.

Wayne: (unintelligible) Thank you, thank you for talking to (unintelligible).

Jones: Thank you.

Wayne: (unintelligible)

Jones: I think you’ve just skimmed over to that, that he beat you up on the back of (Unintelligible). I think he just skimmed over it. It’s very hard to stand up. I don’t think he did any harm. (Unintelligible word) just skimmed over it.

Wayne: (unintelligible)– make the decision like he would, ‘cause I woulda just smashed him and took him back and whatever happened, I guess woulda happened to him. ‘Cause I– I mean (Unintelligible).

Jones: Well, he’s– he– he– you have so much good in you, that it’s there in him, and I hope for it to come out. (Pause) Anthony Buckley should be commended for his fine achievements at Ben Franklin School. Last month he wrote a play about young people and the problems of venereal disease. For that he won a plane trip to Disneyland. There were only five boys who won through the whole school. He was– he– he used to–

Crowd: (Applause)

Jones: Where’s he at? Where’s he at? Bring him up. Now this is a boy who grew up here and had to leave here and excelled in the city. And that’s amazing, because that’s just– well, it’s just amazing, that’s all. Give him a good hand.

Crowd: (Applause)

Jones: We’re proud of you, man, we’re proud of you. Five boys in the whole school system. Benjamin Franklin that got this. Johnny Valentine Shular, six years old, second grade. Johnny had ten cents which he was saving to spend on candy. When he went to school, he– he’s told them about the– the– When he went to school– (Stumbles over words)– it said, when he went to school his (unintelligible) clear to me, but the Red Cross told him about starving children in the world, and that the Red Cross would help. He quickly gave his ten cents and took a bar of soap. This was his own idea. We really thank you for that. Give him that praise.

Crowd: (Applause)

Jones: I think that further grows to confirm, the Buckley boy’s response and growth, further goes to confirm what we said earlier about the Shular home. Yeah, those are two that are not messing around, trying to prove something (unintelligible word) to each other, but they’re sharing some love with children where it really counts. Hmm?

Crowd: (Applause)

Jones: And as you know, the last child that I just named is in their home too. So if some of you would come to terms with the marriage uh, like– I think that should be– they didn’t marry out of the same reason as others. They married something like the Becks [Don and Bonnie Beck], to serve, and look what they’re doing with it. And some of you who say you’ve got so much love going on with you, you can’t give a child anything. Your children are like hell, because you’re living in hell. So why don’t try to bend your life towards a higher purpose, a nobler purpose. This is such a wonderful thing to produce children like this. This lad– this lad was really gone, he was out of co– contact. Buckley boy was out of contact with things. He was often a schizophrenic withdrawal, and to see him performing like that uh, is a commendation to him and a commendation to his home. A commendation his– to his mother who loved him enough to allow him to get the kind of background that he needed. So we– we praise Sister Buckley, we praise Brother and Sister Shular, and we praise you to the nth degree. Keep it up man, keep it up.

Crowd: (Applause)

Jones: (speaking off the microphone, in background)– You may go down. Go down. You may go down. Get yourself as we’re getting ready to close now. (Pause) Just months– (unintelligible)– every– thank you so, for your thought. I wish the fatal heart attack, soft water message to be sent around. How many have soft water in their home? Soft water. Soft water. You shouldn’t be drinking soft water. Soft. Not salt water. Soft. S-o-f-t. (Pause) San Francisco’s water very soft? (unintelligible) Well, some of them– some of them– many s– people don’t even drink regular city water. They have– What is– What?

Voice in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: Well, that’s all right. You get the spring water. Uh, but you can get juices and get your liquids in that way, just as long as you take so much liquid a day.

Voice in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: What? Should not drink soft water. It’s been conclusively proven that it’s associated with heart attacks. And it changes– it changes when you change. Now if I didn’t love you, I wouldn’t tell you, ‘cause there gonna be folks go out and spend all kinds of money for buying spring water. If you just drink your proper juices – your grape, your cranberry – you get enough liquid through that. You wouldn’t have to drink so much water as some people do, but you must take eight or ten glasses a day. Or something. Not milk. Nobody– Uh, it’s been a proven fact too that milk in– except in cases, rare cases, very rare cases where medically prescribed, that no one past their mature years should drink milk. You don’t need it. Not only do you not need it, it’s damaging to you. Uh-hmm [Yes].

Music on second track ends

Voice in crowd: (Unintelligible)

Jones: What’d you say, (Unintelligible word)? What?

Voice in crowd: (Unintelligible)

Jones: Well, it’s a– it’s lower in– in the– in the fats but it still– it– it’s not uh, too conducive to people that want to keep their cholesterol down.

Woman in background: (unintelligible)

Jones: Nonfat, but you still have some calcium deposits that you– uh, it doesn’t help you with arthritis and other things. The only reason I drink the filthy stuff’s in here – I can’t stand it – but in here my stomach’s in such knots that I have to. My stomach is in literal hell, only when I’m in congregational meetings or in counseling assemblies. I wouldn’t– I’d be the healthiest person– person alive if it wasn’t for the confrontations of helping with other people’s lives. ‘Cause you never can do it ‘til they understand it. It’s just very rare that someone will understand that you’re trying to help them. I’m tired of trying to do it. I feel– Like the sister said, I feel uh, just about giving up on it. But I won’t, I’ll keep doing it, but during this service, I just have to get something to stop that enormous knotting that begins within fifteen minutes. Oh, it was later tonight because of that beautiful music, and please keep up that. I’ve asked for that for a long while, and I appreciate you getting that together, because there’s a difference between our singing, and if you want to reach people in religion, and there’s a lot of people that could be reached by that who’d stay around for that singing, even though the sermons get a little heavy, they’d stay around. Uh, we need both, I mean, you certainly those other kind of uh, songs are remarkable, but I’ve asked a long time for a definite spiritual type of song, and not all with the same kind of a fast tempo, and tonight you fulfilled that. That song you sang, uh (Stumbles over words), you could’ve sung it a capella almost, and there’s a certain beautiful uh, relaxing aspect to it. I can’t explain it. We all know what it is when we feel it. But there should be – not only the fast song – but there should be that type of song too. And there should be a mixture of them. And you did well. You gave us a beautiful quick time song, inspired, anointed song, and then you gave us a deep inspirational song at first. And I hope you’ll do more of it, because I didn’t have any tensions all during that. I was certainly relaxed, and some of you don’t have enough judgment to sho– uh, you really don’t have enough judgment. I was sitting there, wanting to relax, and you tried to bring me notes, and I didn’t– I– you thought I didn’t see you. I ignored you.

Crowd: (Stirs)

Jones: You will never let me alone. So when people came up and (Unintelligible word), I just ignored you. I did– I did it to Jack, I did it to Grace Stoen, the head of the council, I did it all you come up. Sometimes I want to be left alone. I don’t interfere with something that’s being produced like that. In the first place, I want to give honor to it. And when there’s yak, yak, yak, yak– and even though Jack had something quite serious, and I’m sure Grace did too, but if we get into it, then other people (Unintelligible word) excuse to yak. We should give our attention to whoever’s performing and not be rude, to interfere and interrupt, because (smacks lips) it– it touched me greatly that they took the time to do it, and I hope you’ll do more of it because I– you– if you could do that in one night, I’d hate to think what you could do. I’d love to be able to imagine what you could do with the several days practice.

Man in crowd: Yeah!

Crowd: (Applause)

Jones: Sing that– Sing that while I’m working, that first one, will you? That group stand and sing that first one, while I’m– while I’m working.

Crowd: (Applause)

Jones: Is there any announcement that should be gotten out of the way? Let’s don’t kill it– Let’s don’t kill it, with an– uh, with a heavy bunch of announcements. Now if there’s anything should be said, let’s say it now.

Man in crowd: (unintelligible)

(Tape edit)

Jones: Don’t ever say that I don’t know what it’s do– uh, like in your department or your office. And then to refer to me as that mother.

Crowd: (Stirs)

Jones: Mm-mm. Sing on. (Tape edit)Your jokes sometimes, you don’t know the first thing about discipline. This person probably needs some teaching about what it is to try to structure an organization. People look on to disrespect. You may not mean anything by it, but they think a lot of it.

(music begins playing)

Jones: Shift yourself, folk, so that you can be–

(Choir sings)

Jones: Beautiful. (Long pause while choir sings) You shift. (Pause) Beautiful, beautiful.

(Tape edit)

Jones: The leader in denigrating terms is unacceptable to us.

Crowd: (Stirs)

Jones: Once– once done so, I think that from now on, you’ll finish all kind of contributions to us. We can get along very well without you.

Crowd: Right.

Jones: I don’t think we can let that happen once even. One time, and I think that was encouraged. I’m going to tell you, I don’t think that a worker would’ve said that in that department, if it had not been encouraged by people in high places. The idea to call this leader a motherfucker.

Crowd: (Responds)

Jones: Now I want you to know what I think. I don’t think it speaks of a person alone. I think it speaks of people who are responsible. Your attitude is mirrored. If you’re a counselor, if you are a– a functionary, if you happen to be on a commission, your attitude is mirrored by those who work around you. I don’t think anybody will take that kind of liberty (voice lowers) unless there is a seething anarchy breeding, and if you think– if you think I’m afraid of your anarchy, I’m going to tear your anarchy up tonight. You don’t fuck with me.

Crowd: (Applause)

Jones: Peace. Thank you. I want everyone in that department called in. You’ll see if I’m afraid. You think I have to keep this thing here. There’s an attitude that we’re afraid of our enemies. You’re afraid of our enemies. I’m not afraid of whatever. I’d rather tear this place up than it go down a tube for nothing. So if I’ve got that kind of thing, that you could speak about the greatest compassionate force that you could speak in such terms as that, and I know that the subject that was being discussed, that there was resentment by others about that subject. So, I don’t want your hand on a thing down there until that’s resolved. If we– if we come back tomorrow, and you find a whole lot of people don’t have a job anymore, and they’ve joined your enemies, that’s all right too, because I want you to know, I’m not afraid of any of these damn people out there, because I got more guts than they got.

Crowd: (Sustained applause)

Jones: Just remember, there nothing worse than putting somebody in a corner when they’ve tried over and over and over to do righteousness and no one receive it, and you get ‘em in a corner, they’re extremely dangerous. Extremely dangerous. Aren’t they?

Crowd: (Responds)

Jones: And I think you can sense the hands of these people that we are a nonviolent people, but we’re extremely dangerous, ‘cause we’ve been fed up with anarchy and fed up with rebellion and fed up with selfishness.

Crowd: (Applause)

Jones: Smart ass. Boy, you wished you hadn’t said it before it’s over, I’ll bet. And you’ll wish you hadn’t encouraged such an environment.

Man in crowd: (unintelligible)– anarchy– (unintelligible)

Jones: (Stumbles over words) They’re awfully thankful she’s not being brought up, publicly. ‘Cause there’d be’s– a whole lot of mad folk in this room.

Crowd: (Enthusiastic applause)

Jones: Being that they had not– had uh, the first time, in their first offense, we’ll give them a break. That shows there’s no ego on my part. I’m the one that’s being offended in this, so I uh– I’ll give them a chance to uh, meet with lesser numbers. ‘Cause I’m sure you’re not uh, any cooler about that than I am. The idea. The idea. Keep your music playing, ‘cause I’m writing down things for people’s protection. I’ve got to do all the things that I do at one time. Just remember, you don’t have anything on me that I care about, ‘cause everything that you have on me, I’ve let it all hang right out for everybody to see.

Crowd: Right. (Applause)

Jones: Now you get to worrying about yourself. I don’t mind losing my life. What about you?

Crowd: (Responds)

Jones: I don’t mind losing my reputation. What about you? I don’t mind– I don’t mind being tortured. What about you?

Crowd: (Responds)

Jones: That’s uh– Always want to ponder your enemy when you’re taking on somebody. You want to make a righteous man your enemy, you want to ponder it. Because a righteous person won’t be afraid.

Man in crowd: That’s right.

Jones: That’s something to think about. You want– you want to size your enemy up. Hmm?

Crowd: (Responds)

Jones: You that are afraid to– uh– (Stumbles over words) Well. I’m just no longer afraid, and I’ve lost interest in this old world of capitalist sin and racism. I’ve lost interest in it. So if somebody wants to make me stay in it by compromising with filthy-minded people, that cannot even have respect for somebody that would die for even his enemies–

Woman in background: That’s right!

Jones: –and they want to cause anarchy in our midst, I would just as soon bring it all to a gallant, a glorious, screaming end. Just bring it to a screeching stop in a– one glorious moment of triumph. So you think about it. (Pause) Shift your hands please slightly, so that I’ll–

(tape edit)

Jones: (tone different, likely an earlier tape) –in the young people come up now and get in– form the line. Fifteen to twenty five.

(tape edit) (long pause)

Jones: (singing, faintly) Oh God be –

(singing stops; faint talking)

Jones: (tone different, likely an earlier tape) –we made it– we made (unintelligible). Long ago, we settled it. In the blood of the [Joseph] McCarthy era. I’ve been drug out by all kinds of investigators, way back to the McCarthy era. Some of us have been taken– this whole church to the Internal Revenue. We’ve been through too much to–

(unintelligible; loud static, squealing sound)

(singing)

End of tape

Tape originally posted July 2011

Originally posted on June 16th, 2013.

Last modified on March 26th, 2014.
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