Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.
(Note: This tape was one of the 53 tapes initially withheld from public disclosure.)
(Laughter, and general commotion as people congregate before Jones talks)
Jones: —because we had so many facilities, children’s homes, agricultural— agricultural plans there, large churches to min— minister. And he knows you’re extremely busy, but it would so helpful, even though this is short notice, it would be so helpful if he sees you. And I’m telling you, between me— you and me, that it comes to (stumbles over words), comes to showdown— try to plan it, that I’ll— that I can come back, even if it has to be at Christmas, uh, when the, uh, whole group comes, that’d probably be more sensible. (Unintelligible)—
Woman: (Interrupts Jones, first part unintelligible) at Christmas?
Jones: Well, if I— if the whole group comes— ah, it’d be good for the group to come. But the problem is, to charter planes, which we don’t know for sure they’re going to get to. But if I do have to come back, I— we ought to try for Christmas (pause) from the standpoint that we could make a— a larger group. (Unintelligible phrase) around in California is, is a very, a very great advantage. But that’s not all I’m concerned about. I’m concerned about people like Tim [Swinney], and people like um, [Jerry] Livingston and the rest of you who want to see loved ones. That’s why I let you get in here. Not for their benefit, although I thought that I’m going to do touring, that’s why I can’t sleep. That’s why I can’t sleep, ’cause of I’m always touring. I’m either reading, writing reports, or uh, thinking, calculating. I thought, well, we could bring maybe three of our people over here a month, could our budget stand this? That way, then, everybody’d get their turn to see somebody they want to see. If I can’t hold of the damn charter plane— keep going broke, you see. I want to understand why we didn’t come. We didn’t pull no wool over your eyes. We intended full well to be here in August. Goddamn charter crook— well, you know, you heard what he told me to tell whenever Al [probably Touchette] can get through to them, to go ahead and deliver the paper, ’cause we’re going to put him in jail. The man took money from us, and he’d had all of our money, if I hadn’t have had a feeling about him. But he got twenty-five hundred dollars, we’re going to put him in jail, for doing it. He represented a plane that he didn’t own. But we intended to come whatever the date was— I guess it was August, wasn’t it—
Two voices: Umm-hmm.
Jones: We had it all laid up, all planned, every seat was taken, we knew exactly who was going. And for December, frankly, we had every seat taken, too. We got them all planned. But I ain’t gone bullshit you, we don’t know we can get here in December, ’cause we ain’t got the plane yet. We gotta couple of leads, but we don’t have the plane. Yes, Les.
Les: (too soft for few words) these people come in, in December, if they come, just fly everyone (Unintelligible, competing voices) housing facility out here—
Jones: I would uh, I’d prefer it. I would really prefer it. Now, I know it’s gonna be tough on you guys, but I would prefer us not having to trip back— And frankly, I don’t think you’re gonna be able to hold that house much longer. That caused us some bad blood. I appreciate you’re trying it, but I don’t— I don’t think we’re gonna be able to do it. Only reason I’m trying to hold on for you is in case there’s an emergency takeover (claps hands once), and we needed that housing badly. And we do. And if you can pull it, fine. If you can hold it, fine. But I would like for them to be out here to get the feel of it and get their goddamn hands in the dirt, so they can get the spirit of it. Uh, we got a half hour’s distance between us, that’s why I’d like that road fixed. Practical reason, but I— like Joyce [Touchette] said on the car to me, she— she— she said, well, that’s not our fucking highest priority. Well, to me, it was a pretty high priority. When I was asked about the goddamn road, she said, it’s hard on cars. Hard on equipment. And uh, to me, it— it would never (Unintelligible word) the high priority, and I started to ask you that, but you were out of the room, ’cause Charlie [Touchette] talked about it, it has a higher priority than I thought you talked about it being. Maybe I just didn’t read it, but I got the impression from you, when I wrote to you, that you thought there were other things more uh, important priorities.
Joyce Touchette: I think, um— I think what— maybe I didn’t finish what I was saying—
Jones: Could’ve been, ’cause I—
Joyce: It um—
Jones: I think about that time, I had to take a leak.
Joyce: —when it’s like it is, this way, it kinda keeps people out of here. That’s why I think it’s kinda good (Jones talks over her, both unintelligible).
Jones: —that’s not a bad idea.
Joyce: They— they can’t get in.
Jones: That’s not a bad idea. She s— she knows that people can come in and see what (Unintelligible word) hiding, I hadn’t thought about that. (Unintelligible sentence)
Man close to mike: (Unintelligible word), it’s not that I’m um— I like working on the road, I like building the road, I think it’s kinda fun, I enjoy it. But see, the— the weather. Uh, uh, it’s a pain in the ass. We’ll get three days, and any work I could have then, like the rain today or like, it could really start raining.
Jones: Well, I (Unintelligible word) doubt that you (Unintelligible phrase). I did not think of that. I— (Man talks over Jones)
Man: I just— you know, with the weather that was holding up the road.
Jones: —keep digging this dirt out, unless you can put something down there of permanence.
(Two people talk)
Joyce: —in case we— in case we don’t say this, I think— I think you made it clear that, when she makes this contact with (Unintelligible name, sounds like “Reese”), she shouldn’t say he’ll come back in two weeks, you know, ’cause if— (Interrupted by Jones)
Jones: No, no, no. The story— the story should be— the story should be, that I desperately need to see— We’re getting ready to pour— pour several million dollars into this place. (Pause) Several million dollars. Money talks. And that’s what I’m talkin’ about, is several million dollars, if I move all these people. I’m talking about assets that I can get my hands on, about four million dollars. (Pause)
Man: You know, when you were talk—
Jones: As of now, that I could c-— convert and get my hands on, including my own money.
Man: When you were talking about contradictions—
Jones: That isn’t my money, by the way— I was— It had already been church money, but they kept certain money back, ’cause they can’t get it in the trust that I can use for defense of my people. Not me, because like I said, I don’t give a shit about life, I just as soon rot in a jail. But church money to use for legal defense, that we (Unintelligible phrase). If you can explain it. Were you there when they discussed this about my money? (Unintelligible phrase)? If I was a rich man when I came (mike moves, people talking)— I still got all, all the money that was turned over. Will you understand (people stir).
Jones: Yeah, anything I don’t have to use my voice for, I’d be glad to.
Eugene Chaikin: : Because of that fact that, that uh, Father— Father, because of the— the risk that he takes, because of— the risk that he alone takes and would take for us or for any of us, if one of us got into trouble, that— that his— his need for having a fund for legal— for his own legal needs—
Jones: And, the rest of you, who are in controversial positions. It’s not just me. (Pause)
Woman: You can’t (Unintelligible phrase)
Jones: In other words, you can’t use church money— in a nutshell, you can’t use church money for legal defense of the corporate members. You can’t do it. It’s against the law.
Chaikin: : So he asked me how to— It’s against the law for— for the church money to be used— So there has to be a— a thing in his name that he’s—
Jones: So I got money in the— It’s my money. It’s money I had before I ever got here. And I had a million dollars, you see. And I turned it over, I had— I was a millionaire, I turned over a business to the church, I turned over— well, just the fact of the matter (Unintelligible word), three weeks ago, we sold the church that was my church. I paid for the church, lock, stock and barrel. It was my debt to me. And I turned over $39,000 to the uh, fund, about uh, three weeks ago. Indianapolis church sold. Got a cash settlement. Well, that’s mine. And they said, well, we’ll put it in your trust fund. I said no, I got enough in that trust. (Mike moves) So it’s already in the church’s— in the church fund, to draw on.
Man: (First half of sentence under Jones) —is that we all know you never touch the money anyhow.
Jones: Well, you do. And some do, and some don’t. So you gotta explain it. That’s why I dropped in the thirty-nine thousand. The thirty-nine thousand’s actually mine. It’s— The check made out to me, ’cause that’s who it belong to.
Man: Didn’t they offer you four hundred thousand at one time?
Jones: No. It wasn’t that much. Hundred and fifty thousand.
Man: Hundred and fifty thousand. Just offered it to you.
Jones: (Unintelligible word) anyone who followed me. Joe Phillips, and (Unintelligible name) Swinney’s house.
Man: (Unintelligible phrase) He’s talking about something else. He’s talking about something— You’re talking about the price of the church, aren’t you?
Jones: Yeah, I’m talking about— To show you the honesty, I dropped it in honesty to show you, the honesty that I don’t want money. But money came to me. It was a debt to me, because I owned the church. I paid for the church.
Jones: I put up all the money for the church. Hell, in those days, nobody’d gi— give me any help, ’cause I— I didn’t tell uh, who I was uh, I let ’em believe in an unknown God. And he don’t get any respect from them, ’cause you just get to do all the work, that’s all you do. (Pause) And I don’t mind— I didn’t mind that, but I didn’t get enough help from the people. So the money belonged to me, and the money came to me, and I said, oh no, and they said, well, put it in your trust, the attorney said, put it in the trust for Father, in case he wants to have his legal (Unintelligible word), I said, I got enough in there now. Put it in the church.
Marceline: What Jeff is saying is the church body voted to give you—
Jones: Well, years ago. Years ago, when they didn’t want to go on to socialism, like I wanted them to go on, and they were (stumbles over words) hassled and— even in those days, Marvin [Swinney] was giving me difficulty. That’s before you ever got in here. They were giving me lot of difficulty, except the thing about it, it was in Marvin’s house. And I said, I’ve had it with you goddamn people, and I did— I said it, I said, I’ve had it with you goddamn people, you don’t want to go socialist, and uh— I’m gone leave. (Pause) And um, Joe Phillips got up, and said, I think if he leaves, we should give him all the money. He made it. And he turned towards (Unintelligible name), and I thought, ooh, you fuckers want me— I could tell Phillips wanted out— he wanted me out, he wanted to take my job. Okay, you son-of-a-bitch, you can do that. And I let ’em all sign it. They all signed. Not that I wanted the money. I just sorta figured, you fucker, you ain’t getting’ it. Might as well give it to the Cubans, you ain’t getting it. And they all signed it, and turned it— I still have the paper to this day.
Chaikin: : (Unintelligible beginning) —he still has the papers.
Jones: Hundred and fifty thousand dollars for the church—
(Several voices compete)
Chaikin: : And even after (Unintelligible phrase) shot up—
Jones: Well, not only that, he got— he got the place, I didn’t trust some people to do the operation. So all the church monies are assigned to me. They— going back to debts they owe me, to all church money they’re owed me, in written papers, (Unintelligible phrase)
Woman: There— There’s no limit to the amount, if you think of it—
Jones: There’s no limit. There’s no limit now. They increased that, about— about a year and a half ago. Must’ve been about the time you left. ‘Cause I wanted to be sure you guys were secured over here. And I didn’t know what the hell some of these people would do, they’re so materialistic. So all the church monies, I could just go draw on every damn bit of it, right now. That shows obviously I had no uh, desire for safety, because I keep wearing my health down, taking the (Unintelligible word, sounds like “phone”), keep you on the (Same word), and I could take every dime of it, because it’s all signed to me. I’ve turned that much over. I can justify it in paper, by legal documentation, I can justify it. ‘Cause the nursing home I turned over, the church I turned over for $40,000, but everything that I’d done, without salary— (Unintelligible word) back salary— and claim what the man of my executive’s figures would get, I can ra— I could draw every damn dime of it out. Well, obviously, I wouldn’t do that unless there was first class treason. ‘Cause obviously it’d be counter-productive, ’cause I’d have to pay taxes on it, there wouldn’t be as much money for you over here. (Pause) Are you— Are you following what I’m saying? That’s complicated shit. (Unintelligible phrase) we couldn’t go here, we had to go to Cuba. We’d want to take something with us. And I want to be in the position— you can’t— don’t take church money. Somebody— (Unintelligible word)— One member would stand and say, I don’t agree. They can give you trouble. But if they owe me a debt, they can’t stop me from taking that money, and saving the ones of you that I want to save in a place of safety.
Man close to mike: Hmm.
Jones: That’s the only reason I did it, ’cause I don’t want no money. And it’s important. If you don’t understand that, a-— ask any question about it.
Unknown Man: I understand.
Jones: By the way, that’s not even explained in the Temple. And we ought to explain that to the Temple, so they don’t get any crazy ideas they’re gonna get that money, ’cause they’re not.
Moan close to mike: Hmm. To the people—
Jones: Yeah. I mean, if they think they (stumbles over words)— that they get any idea they’re going to stop me from saving the people, here in the Promised Land. (Pause) A little group can get together and claim they don’t want it, but if they owe me a debt, they have to pay me the debt, and I (Unintelligible word) the fuckin’ building, that they won’t have any money. You understand?
Several voices assent.
Jones: And that’s the whole reason for it. Because you know what people gone do.
Man: Another thing in the way of contradictions down here is what even though the PPP [People’s Progressive Party, Guyana political party] has lost all its power, Cheddi Jagan still has control over two workers’ unions, or at least, he and those that are in that thing, and they— and right in the middle of the sugar harvest, when there was— this country’s getting some cash money ah, for some of their future programs of the nationalization of the um, bauxite, and so forth, fix the votes and so on, that, you know, the sugar— the sugar market was no good. Right in the middle of it, they wanted to call a strike and nearly sabotage the whole thing. They co— they almost didn’t meet their consignments, you see, in the name of— of world communism, in the name of Soviet socialism, or some sort of bullshit. You see? And it’s got— he’s got these kind of contradictions, and it’s known, the CIA—
Jones: Now, now, say that again, man. I don’t get that—
Man: In the name of— in the name of—
(Man and Jones talk over each other)
Jones: I don’t know. Jagan’s a Muscovite.
Man: But in the name of socialism, he was calling a st— sugar workers’ strike for more money and better housing, right in the middle of the harvest, and they had made consignment, for the countries of Eastern Europe. I’ve forgotten who all, but uh—
(Man and Jones talk over each other)
Jones: —observe something, that’s good.
Man: And, and uh, had they not been able to meet the consignments— and they needed the money, you see, all the money that’s going into this— this big expansion of the— of this national service has come from that sugar.
Jones: Yeah, yeah.
Man: And the country was— uh, uh, the government was bankrupt until they got this.
Man: So, um, anyway—
(Man and Jones talk over each other)
Jones: Maybe— maybe he wanted to sabotage it, thinking, you know, they would cost themselves money and commitments to the communist bloc, but if they did, that uh, [Guyana Prime Minister Forbes] Burnham was not enough of a communist, and they wanted to destroy his government so they could take over, but I’d say that’s damn foolhardy, because only one that take over would be the CIA.
Man: Yes, it’s also known that the CIA’s infiltrated labor unions all over. That’s how they messed up Chile, that’s how they messed up uh—
Jones: I agree, I agree, but I can see, there might be some honest motivation though on the part of Jagan. Do you understand?
Jones: I agree with you, that in— that their theory would not be coming to any good benefit for them in practice, because if there was a major destrus— uh, if the government fell here, and they go over to— it’d be— that outright communist party on Jagan’s not going to pick it up.
Man: And there’s another thing, is that someone told me uh, Muscovite’s point of view, Jagan’s written a pamphlet of condemnation of the Burnham government in the i— in the ideology in their programs, so uh, you might— You can get it, I mean, that dentist that we go to has it, and you can just pick it up and read it. It’s right there, he has a whole—
Jones: So read it. Read it.
Man: I read it already. I thought you might want to get a hold of it.
(Man and Jones talk over each other)
Jones: I’d be better if you give me a synopsis of this dumb crazy objective—
Man: Well, um—
Jones: Well, not this second, but maybe uh—
Man: Something about the nationalization of (voice fades)
Jones: ‘Course, you couldn’t give it to me that fast. But think about it a few minutes, then you could give it to me a little bit later. The whole group might benefit by it. I don’t like some many people go and piss at one time, where in the hell— where in the hell is everybody going?
Woman: What is the year of that, by the way?
Man: It’s recent— (words overrun by woman)
Woman: It is recent?
Man: It’s recent, because it has a thing on capitalization—
Woman: How recent?
(Several people talk at once)
Jones: Can one take care of the coffee?
Man: (Unintelligible word). They had something about— about the money that was uh— How they got sc— how the government screwed themselves when there was, there was, there was um, um— (Snaps fingers) you know, corruption, because (Unintelligible name) was supposed to be paying so much money in—
Jones: And when did Jagan write this, son?
Man: It was recently, because it was— they had—
Jones: Well, you know, but Jagan recently— which it just gave me more encouragement about us being here. Jagan regen— recently took a position of critical support. Not outright opposition. Opposition’s moved in front of critical support of the government. ‘Cause I’m concerned about you people the first magnitude, because you’ve been out here working and making a new life. And I have a special fondness for you people who’ve done that. A special fondness, more than anybody that I know in the whole group that— plus— and except those who work all night, workers are burning the damn candles like this guy [Mike] Prokes and uh, a handful of other at home, that just burn their ass out trying to help me. But you people who launched out in here and broke attachments and broke away from your old cultural traditions and your s— conveniences, even though they were self-defeated, TV’s and luxuries and all that shit. I’ve got a special fondness for you. People who broke relationships and uh, had to be away from them for— not knowing, and it’s been months now, it’s been a year and a half, uh, I’ve got a special fondness for you. And I— I’ve been critically analyzing this thing, because I thought, if you didn’t want it to go right, I’ll just call you home. (Pause) No, I just— I just thought I’ll just wipe it out and uh, won’t put you in no (Unintelligible word— “misery”? “business”?) with the government, ’cause I’ll just take what you can get on the boat. I thought, as Charlie said, I’ll— I’ll— I’ll put some people on planes uh— on planes and leave that much for the boat till it can get to the shore, and what is valuable, we can get it back in that way. (Pause) The only trouble is, we got some problem when you get back in too. (Pause) I don’t care how much they go through shit, when you get back in.
Man: They went all over that boat. When we got into Key West, they went down in the hold, even.
Another man: Well, did you see, did you get a yacht, yacht, uh— a yacht clearance, plus a yacht going in out of the uh— You know, if the yacht doesn’t have to go through customs, they—
Jones: I’m talking about cash, is what I’m talking about.
Man: Well, I’m saying that if uh—
Jones: Money. If you have any money on hand, that’s what I’m talking about.
Woman: Well, he’s telling you that the yacht can go—
Man: The yacht can go— They call the yacht in, and say, have you got yacht clearance, and—
Jones: Where’d he go?
Man: They just go out and go fishing, and they come back in, they don’t have to go to Customs, it’s a—
Jones: Who you talking about? You talking about on this end?
Man and woman: On that end.
Woman: One of our people get a yacht.
Man: The yacht can leave— leave— leave Miami, and go out and come back without going through Cu—
Jones: Oh yeah, (Unintelligible word), fine.
Man: Well, if you could— it’d be something to arrange, but they— they do smuggling out there, and there wouldn’t be people or even a fishing thing that could be available, and you could pay it, because they do it. I don’t know how— it’s somebody that knows how—
(People talk over each other)
Jones: They go through purses? They looking at purses?
Man: No, no. No.
Jones: (Stumbles over words) And they didn’t frisk you.
Man: No. Definitely no.
Man: No, no. No.
Jones: I heard from two of you, now, I—
(Several people talk)
Jones: (talks too low)
Man: They was mainly— they was mainly looking for like a— from what I gathered, it was uh, there was more or less agricultural—
Jones: And they let you get off? They let you get off.
Man: Yeah. (Unintelligible word)
Another man: Oh, yeah.
Jones: And you guys look like typical Americans, so they— you coulda been dope smugglers or anything else. They knew you were church?
Man: I don’t think so.
(People talk over each other)
Man: Oh wait, Archie [Ijames] talked— Archie talked to them.
Second man: Yeah, and Archie talked to the— like before—
Jones: Black or white? That’d make me even more— Their prejudice is there, latent. So I imagine the women could get in without careful— I’d rather— I’d rather try that, that start messin’ with some of— (Unintelligible word) asshole don’t have anything on him but yacht. They meet you. Because then— then they get paranoid. It starts to blow.
Man: (too soft)
Jones: Communications that— communications that lag here, the radio transmission, we give too much information. How would we get the information to uh, us, to every yacht waitin’ on you— and when we had to tell you, you had to come, it’d have to be over radio or, or over telephone or in a letter code. Probably have to be done quicker. So it’d have to be radio, and thus they’d be waitin’ for— lookin’ for a plan. And by the same token, they also be that much more critical about your en— re-entry. Although they’re not as concerned about you comin’ in. They’re not as concerned about your comin’ in, uh, other than (Unintelligible word) and drugs. And I’m concerned about cash.
Man: And I’m thinking—
Jones: They won’t be— they won’t be looking for that. They usually sniff for drugs. Don’t have a damn prescription thing on you, because the dogs smell it. If they smell one damn prescribed codeine, then you got it. They gotta go through the whole damn thing, you go through the whole works, you— because you gotta justify the prescri— the prescribed drug. And these damn dogs are sharp anymore. They can smell— they got dogs trained for codeine, they got drogs— dogs trained for every kind of dr— drug that they have.
Marceline: Do they have laws that says you can’t bring money in? I thought it was going out.
Jones: (Unintelligible word) you got some explanations. Did you bring that money out with you? If you brought that money out with you, you are guilty of a crime. And if you made that money over there, did you report it? Where did you get that money? See, the government’s getting more fascistic every day. You can’t go through to the United Sta— you can’t come out of the United States with more than five thousand dollars, a person. You can’t travel back in without more than five thousand dollars a person, unless you explain where you made it. Well, you can say, I just made a haul and— and sold some jewels. Where’d you get the jewels?
Jones: When did you sell them?
Jones: Or did you find out, I say a thousand jewels— I sold two weeks ago, that’d be the best thing, which wouldn’t make no sense. Found us some goddamn gold, and now we sold it. ‘Cause you’d be in no trouble— you’d be gone from Guyana. But it’d have to be something you did that year, because [if] you’d made it in the last year and did not report it— you see what I’m sayin’?
Jones: Or you say, we made it, now we’re gonna give it to the church, our denomination. (Pause) We gotta stop ’em. We made it. (Pause) Or, better yet, we sold some equipment. And that, they couldn’t trace. We sold some equipment. ‘Cause they’re not going to send you back to Guyana to meet Guyana’s laws. All they’re gonna be concerned is how you meet American laws, if you follow me. (Pause) The best thing, though, is to say nothing. Fine, if they go looking up your crotch, well— they’re looking up your, you know, I— I— I always keep my money in my crotch. And a lot of people do. (Pause) If you had money on hand, is what I’m talkin’ about, money that hadn’t been expended for the cause. ‘Cause of issue, we had some cash flow. You got to be very careful that there isn’t any more than five thousand a head. (Pause) And if I ever send a message through uh— (Pause) We have to think of a code, refuse all cash money. Refuse. Uh— I don’t know what kind of word you ought to use. (Unintelligible word) figure out, but we ought to decide on that. (Pause) You follow me? A word that would be used that means, expend it. And a word that means, bring it.
Woman: What— what would (Unintelligible word) expend it on?
Jones: I don’t know, (Unintelligible name). I’m just talking about, in the process— we may get in the place where we want to use up some— all the cash we have even though— even though we intend to stay here. That money may be devalued, it may not be worth shit, (Unintelligible word) on the market, so we won’t— we don’t want to be holding no money back, where it can mildew. The best way you try to preserve money is to—
(Several people talk)
Jones: You got some silver here, haven’t you? Uh, didn’t I send you some silver?
Man: We only get gold here.
Man: We only get gold here.
Jones: Well, shit, now, I don’t know. I’ve had so many different stories on it, I get some sane understanding of it, then maybe— maybe so.
Man: I had it— I had it offered to me. I think it’s for real.
Jones: Well, the last time I looked at gold, and I looked at it right thoroughly, we bought gold cheaper in the United States than we could buy it here.
Man: I don’t know. It’s three hundred and twenty dollars (Unintelligible word) ounce.
Jones: You, you see, we— we— we can buy— I can buy gold, what, a hundred thirty-nine dollars an ounce.
Woman: Well, that’s American money.
Man: —two dollars and fifty cents.
Jones: What’s that?
Woman: He’s talkin’ about Guyana—
Man: That’s Guyanese money.
Jones: He’s talking about what?
Man: Guy— Three hundred and twenty dollars—
Jones: That’s a hundred sixty. Quick figuring, that’s a hundred sixty dollars. A hundred and fifty dollars, and I can buy it for a hundred thirty-nine.
Man: It’s two-fif— But it’s two dollars and fifty cents a dollar.
Jones: Oh, yes, I keep forgetting that. (Unintelligible word) I— I— I keep forgetting that.
Man: And if you have American money—
Jones: No, no, what’s gold an ounce now? We’ve bought some gold. We’ve got gold. It’s cheap now—
Man: No, it’s— I mean, it’s 140.
Man: Hundred and forty.
Jones: A hundred and forty.
(Sounds of microphone moving)
Jones: I look at the time, I look into it, son. (Unintelligible sentence). Paula’s [Paula Adams] got some, as I say, some silver. Uh, and Paula’s got some silver.
(Voices too low)
Jones: Well, we couldn’t find nothing, no luck man, and I— I— I tried in here, when I first— before I even sent any of you people, I tried to get some damn gold, and I did it pretty thorer— pretty thoroughly, and if you can, uh, inquire without being obvious, and we were very low key. But we were very thorough, and we came up with a no-no on your goddamn gold here. But your gold was inferior to our gold in quantity— in quality, and that we could buy it cheaper in the States. So we would’ve bought gold in the States. We have not shipped it here. (Unintelligible word), I’ve got too many contradictions. (Pause) I’d like to ship all my gold here. Before I do that, I want to find out where in the hell we stand. (Pause) We got gold. (Unintelligible word) people are fool to keep everything in cash these days. We’re off on a side issue now. We got gold, we got silver. Uh— We don’t write that back and forth, naturally. The church has— the church has been told in a general sort of way, you’ve heard me say, I don’t have everything. If you set in that darn kitchen, (Unintelligible phrase) pick up on what I’m trying to say. (Pause) But if this is going to be our home, this is where all the gold and silver ought to be, (Unintelligible word). But not in Georgetown, where we now have some things. (Pause) And then you gotta know you ain’t got a traitor amongst you. (Pause) See? And whereas up till now I’ve kept it uh, completely secret— completely secret, until we hit the two sisters, that’s all I’ve dealt with. (Pause) And she actually knows more about it than— than she does, (Unintelligible word), we did it. And I told Sister (Unintelligible name), she came back, but I did not know any of it, but I said Charlie don’t even know about the (Unintelligible word) money. He doesn’t. I don’t believe I’ve brought you in on that, I don’t think.
Charlie Touchette: Hmm.
Jones: But I said (stumbles over words)— I did that for one reason. I didn’t want to bring Archie in. Then it looked like it had been the co-workers. (Unintelligible phrase), ’cause Archie was in— in trouble with his ego, I thought. And with him runnin’ around, which I don’t want to go through again, but some of you know the round he went through. (Pause) How many do know the round we went through?
Jones: You know what I’m talking about? The round? So I thought, the only way around that is if Charlie don’t have no access to liquid ass— liquid inflow, then Archie’s got no gripe. (Pause) The only problem is uh, I told him now later, (Unintelligible phrase), that Rosie can be influenced by Archie. So I made it understand that even Rosie wouldn’t. Which was really going out and risk (Unintelligible word), decided that I would make Debbie— but it was— there was some quarrel about Debbie, because they considered Debbie a Touchette. (Pause)
Man: (Question too soft)
Jones: No, it wasn’t that. It wasn’t— It wasn’t that. It was just Archie’s paranoia. Archie has a very good attitude towards you people right now. He’s very fair. But uh, we would have to dicker, because he had some money in his hands. That’s what happened. Archie had money in his hands. And he had a hell of a job getting that money back. ‘Cause he was paranoid as hell. He took literal statements out of context, and Rosie— sick coupling relationships are always— they’re always detrimental. He took Rosie’s word for literal, that we were going to kill him, or Charlie was saying somethin’ about killing, and Charlie didn’t mean no more than the man in the moon, and so he got— he got apey over that thing, and Rosie get a— Wake up! (Claps hands) We get a better relationship with him. You, Johnson, I’m talkin’ about. So he got apey, and we had a hell of a time getting back. Well, Archie’s got over that now. Archie give that money over and uh— very honest about it. But you do— you just got to limit who know in the hell knows where your money is, that’s all. Because if you don’t, then that’s where I felt that the logical place to stop was to stop with the sisters. ‘Cause obviously, I’ll be very frank, we got one brother isn’t workin’, you sure as hell ain’t gonna tell him where your money is.
Scattered voices: Right.
Jones: So I can tell half of you here where the money is, and I can’t tell the other half. Why take the chance? (Pause) Why not leave it with the couple that you know is going to be honest? They’ve proved honest thus far. Always that chance they’ll run away in the end, and she didn’t, didn’t take no money. And certainly Joyce is not getting no (stumbles over words) no question about running off with no man. She’s married and hadn’t even shown any inclination to run off with any man. So she hadn’t— there was no question about her honesty. (Pause) But it wouldn’t do no good to— to try to figure out where the money is, ’cause I wouldn’t tell you just exactly where it was—
Woman: (Unintelligible sentence)
Jones: And they— they— wouldn’t do no good to kidnap them and try to get them to lead you, ’cause they’d die before they’d tell you. And uh— It isn’t a simple thing to find. If you follow me. You— You— Ain’t nobody would be smart enough to find it. You’d have to have discernment. (Unintelligible word; sounds like “jungle”) is so big. (Pause) Well, I don’t know how you figured, that you’d spend cash and keep silver and gold and— you ain’t going to go back to the States, if you steal some of our gold. If you ever try to steal some of our silver or gold, you ain’t gone get far with it, because you sure ain’t gone get through no Customs with no gold or silver. They’re gonna get your ass, ’cause it’s heavy. If they don’t get your ass, we will. We’ll do it.
(Several voices compete)
Jones: But you wouldn’t get through Customs with no gold or silver. I hope you know that. I’m not trying to be— use any scare tactic. You won’t get through there. Too goddamn heavy. You say, who am I talking to? Anybody that might be a traitor. Say, who do you think about? Nobody. I— I honestly am thinking about nobody. But I know, if you sit around and look at people, and think they won’t, uh— you don’t have to work while they do, you might even think about stealing. But that’d be a, a wicked morning. Last person I remember that steal— stole off me, Lily (Unintelligible name), she weren’t in her right mind now, running up and down the streets as a prostitute. And it doesn’t have a right mind. (Pause) I don’t like— I don’t like to be— I— I won’t deal very easily with people who steal off the people.
Debbie Touchette: I think you’re very, very— extremely loving, I can’t even say the words for it, to take people (Unintelligible word), to take people with any type of reason for what they— and I— I would ne— I would not have done it. Only you have done it.
Jones: Well, I never thought he did it for aggrandizing reasons. And he didn’t— If he had, if I thought he’d done it for aggrandizing reasons, he’d a been— he’d a been finished, even though it was your daddy. He was doing it because he was scared and paranoid. He shouldna been. A socialist shouldn’t give a shit whether they’re going to die tomorrow, and if I said, if I thought he was going to plan to kill me tonight, I’d know I’d been ineffective as a leader, and I’d go die anyway. I wouldn’t even worry.
End of side one
Jones: —handle the money, because— preferably I don’t because she refused to be an emancipated woman. She— He’s trying to emancipate her. He really is trying to emancipate her. Archie says, criticize me. And he’ll criticize himself, da— doesn’t he, (stumbles over words) in an unusual way. Goddamn, it’s an unusual way. He’s a much different Archie than you’ve ever known. But she will not take the initiative. He cannot get her out of the shell. (Pause) She refuses to be anything more than a passive female.
Man: (Unintelligible word)
Jones: And thus— and he has a big ego. That makes him unsafe, because she won’t balance him.
Woman: That’s what I said.
Jones: But he does more than most males will, without any help from the female, because she’d been told (Unintelligible phrase). Yet it’s no help to look at his conscience from hi— from her. She— she just says, yeah, or most of the time, she’s asleep. That’s what most—
Marceline: I remember years ago in church, when he’d preach, she’d sleep all the way through church, until he’d get to preachin’, and then she’d say, (Unintelligible word— sounds like “Amond”), that’s (same word), all through— all the way through Archie’s sermons, (Unintelligible phrase)—
(Women talk over each other)
Jones: Well, why did she sleep with— why’d she (same word) on him, ’cause she’s scared of him, that’s why she (same word) him. She— she’d stay awake—
Jones: She still does. I ain’t gone lie to you. She still does.
Younger woman: It’s probably better that she does, because she doesn’t know what’s going on.
Jones: She sleeps— she sleeps (Unintelligible word) like a log.
Younger female: (Unintelligible phrase) it can go out, and— but to take the people’s money and to go out, I think, I would’ve—
Jones: Yeah, well, I ain’t gone put up with it no more. I made up my mind. I went through that once. I ain’t gone put up with it no more. Better walk out without stealing the goddamn money.
Female: (Unintelligible sentence). I’m responsible for his action—
Jones: That’s all right. Good. Take your guilt, and— That’s good. Or you can take your guilt. He thinks it’s there to share guilt. And I— he does real well, not having a companion to give him any assistance. I don’t know how we got on that subject. We always get off on some damn tangent. (Sighs)
Female voice too low.
Female voice too low.
Jones: He didn’t try to pick a fight.
Female: Well, he used it for—
Jones: Yeah, he used it as a bargaining (Unintelligible word), ’cause he thought he was going to get killed between here and Miami. That’s what paranoia can do to you. He thought you people were going to kill him, and then somebody played a trick on him on food, and he thought they were going to put poison in his food.
Young female: Oh, it must’ve—
Female: It must’ve started way before that, because he never even put it where— uh, where he told
Chaikin: it was. (Short laugh) And his paranoia— (Jones overrides her)
Jones: No, no, then he did. Then I asked Chaikin — did not— where it was, and went in the wrong place. Chaikin could’ve had it all. ‘Cause Archie leveled up— leveled where he’d buried it, and then dumb-ass Chaikin — that Chaikin is stupid. He’s a brilliant attorney, and that’s why I got him at home. He’s brilliant when you— when you guard him, watch him. He can do some fanastical strategy. But he— uh, se— Archie’d look right at him and laugh, and he would say, you dumb ass. He said, you coulda gone and picked it all up, and Chaikin forgot, and digging someplace else.
(General low sounds of derision)
Jones: Shit. I said, originally he and Chaikin were the ones that knew. A black and a white man knew where our money was. And we ended up dragging ass money back home which should’ve stayed here, all because of it. (Pause) Forty-some thousand dollars. And it ended up going all the way back to the United States, after all the effort I had to get it out of— I personally risked going to jail, carrying that goddamn money. ‘Cause I didn’t want other people being endangered by it. So I carried it my damn self. (Pause) Son of a bitch, they didn’t matter— (stumbles over words) You know, this is stupid. Ended up having the goddamn money at home, because of somebody’s paranoia. I said, Archie, what you should’ve done, no matter what, even if you thought you’d been wrong, you should’ve walked in the damn jungle, because your effectiveness is over with. (Pause) And he agreed. But boy, it shook him when I first said it to him, though. And I will say that for him. There’re very few people I could say that to— But that’s about where he is, and you shouldn’t worry about your ass, I guess that’s what we’re getting on to, you shouldn’t worry about your ass. Say, you’re gonna die, and like I said to Les the other night, when he was up, what the hell’s the difference, if you’re finished? You’re gonna die someplace sooner or later anyway. (Pause) Obviously, nobody ever intended to do anything to Les. Nobody. I never even heard even the thought (Unintelligible word) suggest it, nobody ever thought about doing anything to Archie.
Female: (Unintelligible phrase), I— I’d like to say that I was really (Unintelligible word; sounds like “proud”) when I heard how Debbie, you know— (voice fades)
Debbie: It was because Father gave me whatever— everything that I have, ’cause I never would’ve had the (Voice fades)—
Jones: The closest I’ve come tonight to being violent was with you. (Pause) And I’m mighty calm. If you don’t get nervous with me around hysterical, I’m uh— And you’re young. That’s why they save you. (Pause) And you got till tomorrow as it is.
Female: It’s time you started growing up, though.
Jones: You see, but people pushing me out of shape. I’ve had too much done to me.
Debbie: That’s true.
Jones: I’ve had too many damn people do too much to me. We can always talk about the policies or the money, but you better be damn lacking in nosiness and quit rummaging around through people’s stuff and doing that, uh— ’cause I uh— I don’t know that that’s done, but one time before here, I had the feeling somebody’d been rummaging through my— uh, my stuff, and I don’t like that shit. (Pause) I don’t— I don’t know— I don’t know who, but uh, I can tell, and I watch my stuff.
Jones: You oughtn’t be nosy, oughtn’t be in nobody’s bu— business but your own. Not be messin’ with nobody’s business.
Male: And that’s true.
Jones: Not going through nobody’s papers, or nothing else. (Pause) And you can put traps for people, if you really want to, and find out whether they been through it. If you’re smart enough, you can put traps (Unintelligible phrase)
Male: Well, Jess, he had— he had no—
Jones: He ain’t got no gun on any property. People— Somebody keep saying, you gotta gun.
Male: (Disgusted) Oh shit. Why don’t they mind their own business?
(People talk over each other)
Female: Yes or no, (Unintelligible name). Yes or no.
Jones: That’s what— that’s what I want to know, ’cause I don’t know whether you got any goddamn guns, and it’s illegal, and they come in here and make a raid on you, and you got a gun, you’re going to have a— you have to have it well hid.
Female: (Unintelligible phrase) —knucklehead left the gun on the table. Lying down on the gun, and another one that was in the box in California.
Jones: Well, then we got (Unintelligible word)
Female: (Voice too low) —there was one that was right on the dining table.
Jones: No, we got ’em.
Female: And the other one was in the box.
Marceline: (Unintelligible phrase) —I think it was nice for you to answer, but I think Pop [David Bettis Jackson] should’ve given a straight answer.
Jones: Pop— Pop’s a little— He— he’s afrai— he feels like we need that for protection. He don’t need no protection. Nobody gonna hurt Po— hurt Pop. (Pause) If he got guns, and if you people can get licenses, you’ll get all the goddamn guns. You’ll get an arsenal. We got an arsenal that we can send you, but you gotta have a license before we can send it to you. ‘Cause if you have guns in this country, they— it’s against the law. And I can send you any kind of a damn gun you want. (Pause) Telescopic rir— uh, rifle that can sh— kill somebody at three miles.
Jones: We got some damn fancy guns, but we can’t send them until you get a license to— to have them. And you will know— when you gonna know about that?
Female: I can try— uh, call again Thursday and find out what the progress is.
Jones: He damn near forgot and carried one in, (stumbles over words), he[‘s] a hard-working guy, but he got a bad memory, but he thought of it in time, or we’da been up shit creek. (Pause) We wouldna been, because we coulda carried it right through— we coulda carried it right through. But it woulda been too dangerous. You never know what the hell they do with those things. They may even x-ray stuff going into—
Female: They asked us, whenever we been through.
Marceline: Drugs. They just ask you. You don’t have any guns or drugs in here, do you? And we said no.
Female: When they ask for—
Jones: That’s not what I’m concerned about. I think in the States— I read an article, that they can— they— they— they sample at random. Random sample. X-ray. Even the suitcases.
Mike Prokes: I’ve seen that.
Male: Yeah, they got a little passage you walk through—
Jones: Well, that’s when— yeah, I’m talking (stumbles over words). Uh, you can’t walk through with anything.
Jones: I mean, even in cargo. If you say— if you say in cargo, they— they can— they can get that, too. So the best way for us to get our guns here, is to get it done legally.
Female: I don’t know—
Jones: It’s a damn shame. We got so damn many guns, we don’t know what to do with them.
Female: I don’t know what kind of problems you’ll run into. Uh, the gun permit here for the— what do we have, rot— shotguns? Shotguns. Um, or under— we have two shotguns, and they’re under Chaikin ‘s name, Peoples Temple and Chaikin ‘s name. (Unintelligible phrase) I don’t know if that puts any problems with the gun permit or not.
Jones: Well, by God, this is— let’s find out without being— obviously we’d say, do you mind if we have them? Know what? If I stay here, I ain’t gone stay here with just two shotguns.
Male: Chaikin — Chaikin told me one time that the— that the permit (pause)—
(People talk over each other)
Jones: You guys ought to come up with some ideas about how to get some of this shit in here.
Female: I think we—
Male: He told me about the gun, that an individual didn’t have to be licensed, but with the gun, it had to be licensed (Unintelligible phrase) individual that carried the gun (Unintelligible phrase), as long as the gun was licensed.
Jones: Did you try to get a license for more guns?
Female: Uh, yeah. And— who said this?
Male: (Unintelligible name), and I asked him who was licensed—
Female: Oh. For the shotguns. That’s a little different. Yeah. Um— yeah, for the handgun, it’s a little— (Unintelligible phrase)
Jones: (first part of sentence overridden)— swap, if it ever come to it, but I’d like to get these guns in here.
Female: I think that the best way to get them in would be for the boat, if the boat went back to the States and made a trip back, because they didn’t check one thing.
Jones: (first part of sentence overridden)— ship in here. (Unintelligible phrase) put anything in Customs? (Stumbles over words) Did they go through your stuff when you—
Male: No, when they put— when we put it on the boat, no. When we got down here, they didn’t even— they didn’t bother with anything.
Jones: I hope— Now I hope Archie (Unintelligible phrase) no more goddamn honey and berries and shit, they can get you in trouble. Fortunately, you’ve not been involved— you can clear Customs. But I think that anytime it will come, (Unintelligible word) that ought to be strongly considered, and you tell us how to put it so the least— the least likely, ’cause you ought to have the guns on this end.
Female: This would have to be with the— with the— um, the Marceline going back to the States and coming back, um—
Jones: I gotcha. I gotcha.
Female: Um— it would—
Jones: But we can’t do nothing. We can’t start no revolution in that country with guns. We got to think about other things. I got something else to get started a revolution in that country. But a goddamn gun isn’t worth shit.
Female: It would have to be fairly soon, I mean, within, say, the next six months, because I think they’ll probably tighten up even Customs restrictions on us. As soon as more um, groups start getting into cooperatives— or cooperative, and they don’t need us for um, an example anymore, if more get into it, I think that our popularity will die down, as far as getting extensions.
Jones: (Unintelligible question)
Female: Well, they’re national—
Jones: (Unintelligible phrase) —lazy fuckers—
(People talk over each other)
Female: I don’t mean outside—
Male: —location, and so on and so forth.
Jones: And they say they sent you movies, but you got shit in here that glorifies capitalism.
Female: Umm-hmm. It’s not too strong.
(People talk over each other)
Jones: What’s The Drowning Pool? What kind of show is that? I can’t remember what that was.
Male: That’s just a screwing and— and living in Hollywood.
Jones: You ought to stop this kind of shit from coming in. And why is it— and then— then I— I— I really got unnerved when you told me that he said it was (Unintelligible name). Then he makes a compromise with (same name), to keep him here, tell him if he’ll bring his money back, he can have it.
Female: Well, part of it is—
Jones: Part of it— Boy, that’s— That don’t make sense to him.
(People talking over each other)
Male: (unintelligible phrase) partnership with PPP— PPP, you know.
Male: He made a partnership with (same name) uh, uh—
Jones: Well, that’s the—
Male: Said to beat the PPP, and then later on, they broke. But uh, that was the one that was in alliance with (Unintelligible word) years ago.
Charlie: He was the money that put— put Burnham in office.
Male: Well, the CIA definitely helped him get into power, because that guy that was— came down here, that— he had a big article in the Contact.
Male: You know, he told all about it.
Female: I think I sent it back, too. I know exactly what you’re talking about. It was a good article, too.
Male: By that— by that guy—
Female: I don’t have it here. Do you still have that one here? ‘Cause I sent mine back to the States.
(Low conversation and laughter among several people for several moments, including light banter about diarrhea, drinking water and eating crackers. Name of John Victor Stoen mentioned in passing.)
Female: —brilliant young children. They know more— they know more than— than the majority of those— I never even thought about how to (Unintelligible phrase). As a matter of fact, when I was 12 years old, my mother got pregnant with my little sister. ‘Cause she was tellin’ me about it, and I said, “Did you and Daddy have anything to do with this?” (Laughs) I had to be awful dumb. Not even curious enough to ask the question.
Male: Darren— Darren is so bright, you know, the other night— the other night at the airport—
Female: He is so smart—
Male: Yeah— that uh, that airline 13, you know he brought out the pictures of the luggage, and see that Darren’s suitcase and all the new clothes that was lost. That— That’s what Darren said. I said, Darren, how are you? He said, I’m fine, but my suitcase, all my new clothes is lost. But anyway this— the airline clerk— ’cause I remember, he brought out this— the— the piece of paper that had a picture of the different types of luggages, and he was holding it there before him, um, um, Mother and I think Mike was there, and Father— And the fellow says, which one was it, and Darren says, this one. And later on, Mother says, I think it was this one here, and it was exactly the one Darren pointed to. He (snaps fingers) picked that out.
Female: And he took— he, uh— You know, he had a balloon, so he drew a picture of a airplane on his balloon and every detail, the number of windows, the— the emblems on the wheels, everything. Just right there. This Darren is a genius. And that’s why I really think it’s so important that— you know, all of ’em are important, but potentially— and then I thought it was so sweet— ‘course, he was coming, you know, he wanted to be with you, but we were talking about Father and Daddy, but he’s identified with the blacks. He says, my real daddy was a black man. And to me, that’s important.
Male: It is. It is. It really is.
Female: He’s not ashamed of it. He wants it to be known that he’s black. He showed me how to hang up his tennis shoes, and he said, now where are my shoe strings? I said— (Laughs) Well, I got get a clothes pin for your shoe strings. He said, if you’ll just wrap it around the clothes line, the wind won’t blow it off. So— he was right. (Unintelligible sentence in laughter).
Prokes: I’ve never seen a kid not take a chance to go to bed when he uh, didn’t have to. Stayed up.
Female: But see, he’s identifi— he’s identifying with you. And you were sitting here, and he wanted to sit here. It’s import— It’s a responsibility, but boy, he’s gonna be watching.
Prokes: Well, I want us to continue whatever has been discussed. I— don’t know what it was.
(Low voice too soft)
Prokes: Maybe it was Darren. I don’t know.
(Several voices overlap)
Jeff: —Said that that—that Contact, that article about violence—
Female: Listen to what Jeff’s saying, ’cause he’s heard what—
Jeff: It was an admission by a CIA agent— Um, he quit the CIA— He wrote a book in the States. I imagine that you all heard about it (unintelligible word). He quit and he— he told what went on, and he worked in the Caribbean and so on, and he told about how the CIA fomented riots in Guyana, and he in— they infiltrated the labor unions, and they helped directly Burnham get into power. He had a close cooperation with them the whole time, and they undermined the— Jagan, because he was too Muscovite.
Female: I’ve heard that rumor several times before, but that article said the same thing.
Another female: Sure.
Male: In the papers?
Female: It’s in the— it’s a new religious paper. Caribbean Contact is a religious paper.
Male: Yeah, but it still has stuff about Cuba. Every time, it has Cuba this, Cuba that—
Female: I know, it’s a— it’s one of the few action (unintelligible word). I don’t— I don’t know. I’ve never read it closely enough to get a really good feeling of it, but— (Pause) I’ve usually gone through and picked out good articles, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good paper—
Jones: —identified family first, that’s where socialism began. (Words lost in competing voice). It’s on a trend of teaching, and I’ll lose it. You have to have an ego to be a good teacher, honest to God you do, for you to be an effective teacher, ’cause I haven’t got enough to know what to say. (Sighs)
(Several voices, include Jones, talk softly)
Jones: Uh, what did I s— what did I say? What was the point? I was trying to say that— and I think Jeff brought up a good point about the Father— the fathership— what did I say? What’d you say, the fathership—
Jeff: I just said you should say fathership of the proletariat— (Balance interrupted by Jones)
Jones: Fathership of the people.
Jeff: The Fathership of the—
Male: You can’t say proletariat. I don’t think. I mean—
Female: No, that’s—
Male: Because to me, the first— after I was told about dic— dic— dictatorship of the proletariat, I mean, anytime I heard that— (competing voices) —protecting people.
Jones: I might call it— The protector of the people. Could I call it—
Man: I mean the—
Jones: The protector of the people. (Pause) The POP. Protector of the people. I’m the final protector.
Female: —certain ring—
Jones: Now uh— And I said I could make— the combination with you, I can— If we had to, I could survive under fascism, I said, I would prefer not to. I don’t know what your preferences were. The ot— The other night, we went through that horrendous ordeal. We took a vote. A majority of the people didn’t want to. I don’t know how you feel, if you want to survive. If you had to survive in America, I could survive. (Pause) I wouldn’t— It would be a painful ordeal to survive, the compromises we’d have to make. ‘Cause that’s the way the— way the ball’s going. I don’t know. I’d like to— before we leave here, I’d like for you to vote to how— what you prefer to do, try to survive and wait, see if there would be a day when we could reappear, um— (Pause) that’d be passing a lie detector test, and sodium penothal, which I could pass. ‘Cause I can distinguish— say, I believe only in me, so I can pass that. Like you— Are you a follower of Moscow? Hell, no, I’m not a follower of Moscow. Am I a follower of Mao? No! I consider myself a far better co— uh, communist— a pure communist than they are. Because they act— they’re surrounded with too many luxuries and conveniences. I said they— they leave— they— they leave their wives and they leave their children. Uh— I— I’m a purist, compared to them. I’m far more pure. So I could pass that, you see. And it wouldn’t be just easy for me to say, well, we’re not— we’re not communist. We’re not socialist. I’d have to prove it. But I could do it. Because I— I am not a follower of anyone but me. I would be gladly a follower of someone, that’d be a lovely feeling, to be a follower, but I’m not a follower of anyone but me, because I believe in me. I believe that I control my motives better, I believe that I watch my ego much better. I keep my ego dead, and— and egos don’t die, they have to be kept dead, you know. They can— Maybe they can arise again, but I don’t (stumbles over words) I wouldn’t want to say that to some of the people who are too religious, they say, well, we can completely crucify, well, you ke— you keep yourself crucified daily. Even the old religions said, I’d die daily. And that’s what you— That’s what— That’s the truth. You’ve got to work on your ego every day, or it’ll re-emerge, and if you don’t work on it every day, by the second day, it’s a little worse, and by two weeks, it’s hellish, and by a couple of months, you may lose your character, if you let your ego up. That’s why you got to constantly battle the resentment. ‘Course, there’s the guilt. You gotta keep that guilt there. Every day, wake up with a little guilt. You don’t want to wake up with so much guilt that you can’t get mobilized. But you got to have enough guilt to keep yourself humble, every day. (Pause) And that’s a hard thing to know just exactly where that line ends. I don’t get im— I don’t get immobilized. Dr. [Larry] Schacht, uh, give me a test on depression, and the medical records, he uh— a very sophisticated test that the medical school puts out, and he— he shook his head, and they all did it there, and he says, you should be non-functional in a mental institution. You’re so depressed. He said, you’re so depressed, you shouldn’t be able to function. Well, I— I can do that. But how many others can do that? You understand what I’m saying? Ah— The— The test showed I have so much depression, so much weariness with life, so much disinterest in life, that he said, you would be a non-functional catatonic, if you were anybody else, you would be— you would be sitting off in some mental institution with his face— his face out staring at the wall. Well, I’ll— I’ll never be in no mental institution. I’ll never lose my mind. But he said I was depressed way below the register of what they can register depression. (Pause) It went way beyond the realm of suicide. He said, the ordinary person commit suicide, they’d be functionally— uh, non— non-existent. So uh, (unintelligible word), want everybody carry as much guilt as I can or not, I’m not able to say that. You know how much guilt (unintelligible word) you can carry. (Pause) So how much— little interest you can have in life. Maybe you have to have illusions. I don’t— I don’t kid myself about anybody’s love. I consider that everybody has a price. You’ve all go— You’ve heard me say, everybody’s got a price. And um— And I— Everybody but me. And I don’t mean that smugly. (Stumbles over words) And I know some won’t have that price. I mean, I know that there’ll be some of you that’ll sell out. It’d be better to face the fact that you’re the only loyal one, make it— put it based on your own loyalty, rather than to say, well, I’m going to be loyal if Charlie’s loyal. I’m gonna be loyal, if spite of whether Charlie’s loyal. I’m going to be loyal, if spite of whether Marceline’s loyal. So I don’t go around saying, well, I’m gonna s— keep being the Father as long as I can count on Marceline, Mike Prokes or Carla. I ain’t gone do that. I don’t make (unintelligible word) on anybody. And I been— uh, believe that in Marceline’s uh, caliber of a person that you can’t find any better, but I told her today in the room, something— I don’t know, I said— uh, she asked me a straight question, and I said, I wouldn’t lie to a comrade. Something about— I know what it was. Full trust in certain area. And I said, I don’t fully trust you in a certain area. Not in reference to her taking care of you. (Pause) Looking after you, she would. She would— You would be perfec— perfectly safe in her hands. But uh, I don’t fully trust. And in— I’d rather not fully trust, because when you fully trust, then you get dependent on that trust, and your commitment gets involved with that trust. (Pounds table for emphasis) And you got to trust yourself to be a socialist, and as I say, you know no matter what in the hell— whatever the hell is done here, you can’t go around here looking at Kenny’s. I know that Dennis, he’ll be there, if Kenny’s not doing right, or if Kenny gets to doing real well, that somebody else next week, you can’t base yourself on the lowest common denominator, you’re liable to do anything. You gotta know that socialism’s right, and as I said, life’s gonna be filled with pain if you’re selfish. I’ll give you an example of Pop Jackson, how upset he was when he was being uh, jealous of mom—
Female: Pop? Come on out (unintelligible word)—
Jones: It’s all right. It’s all right. Uh, you very— and you got to be, uh, you’ve got to be— That’s a very nice cue you gave him. Um, the uh, the question is, pain is— a life is filled with pain. Now you can build yourself with illusion, and even many revolutionaries do it. That’s why a lot of communists have been communist, because they always believe the revolution’s gonna win. I’m a— I’m a Marxist, whether the damn revolution wo— is won or lost. And I wonder sometimes whether Fidel [Castro] would’ve fought the fight if he thought he was gonna die. Would [Che] Guevara have fought the fight. Still, it don’t make any difference whether they were pure communist or not. Uh, co— communism’s got to win, and it’s right if it didn’t win, because two out of three babies going to bed hungry, it isn’t right. And the only way you can stop two out of three babies going to bed hungry is to have pure communism. You got to share the wealth, or there’s gonna be starvation, there’s gonna be hunger, even— too much of it we see on the roads as we go back here. Poor children not in good— not in good shape, with their little pot bellies. (Pause) So communism’s right. Whether you win it or not, has no— it has nothing to do with it. But I have a feeling a lot of these co— communists who won had the damn— certainly they’re sorta like the Christians, that God’s on their side, they’re gonna win. You can hear them talk frequently. The dialectic’s on our side. We’re gonna win. Sure. Communism is gonna win, but it may go through a nuclear war. We may die (short laugh), before it’s built. You’ve got to— you know, you’ve got to— you’ve got to face that. I don’t get a damn whether I get any benefits of communism or not, or (stumbles over words) socialism, communism. And you know what the difference is? (Pause)
Male: I’m not— I’m not quite— I’m not quite sure on the difference between the two.
Jones: Socialism’s on the— uh, can you explain it, Jonathan?
Jonathan: Well, I don’t know if I can explain it with words, like com—
Jones: Well, don’t worry about it.
Jonathan: Communi— Communism is um, the next stage before socialism.
(several voices compete)
Jones: You’re wrong, but it’s easy to be wrong. Communism is— Socialism is a stage to communism. Communism is a stage in which all government withers away, because you don’t need it anymore. You only need government when there’s, you got property and I got property. If everybody owns the property, you don’t need no government. If you recognize in this place, that we’re all equal, you wouldn’t need a Charlie. You— ‘Cause you’d equally do your right. Now you need a Charlie. He’s a miniature P-O-P. (Stumbles over words) Protecting people. Dictatorship of the people. Joyce is the same. They— they serve them because, it’s necessary. If Kenny was doing what was right, and everybody was doing what was right, he wouldn’t have to give no orders.
Charlie: That’s right.
Jones: I wouldn’t have to give no orders, then when— and then communism is that the next— so— socialism is the initial stage. You only taking a little— and you’re taking away a little bit of the people’s selfishness there. Let me illustrate that a little— Make an illustration. You take away big business, get those big fuckers out of the way. ‘Cause they’re the dangerous one, the big, rich corporate assholes. You take over the major means of production and distribution, the markets, the railroads, the airlines, the— uh, get these powerful amounts of money together than can destroy a whole government like Chile. The multinationals. Under socialism, you take over— Anybody implement this, I’m just trying to make it simplified for people, and uh, something— a lot of times, you can help me out sometime—
Man: You’re doing it.
Jones: Uh, and so uh— you get away— the utilities that charge you for electricity in the States. High raid. And there— they don’t need no profit on utilities, that ought to be public utilities. They say it’s public utilities, but it’s not. Public telephone— horrible telephone rates. In Cuba, there’s no telephone charges, there’s not electric, ga— gas, no fuel [charges], that’s all owned by the people. Even Cuba’s gone so far that they— ice cream’s given away free, to children. Education’s all free. Socialism, you nationalize the bigger businesses, you nationalize the bigger services. Under communism, property is done away with. You don’t own anything (stumbles over words) personally, in an egocentric or selfish way, except the clothes on your back. There is no communist country in the world, because in Russia, you can have up to fifty thousand dollars. That’s not good enough for me. I don’t like that. I say it’s dangerous when you have people who have $50,000, ’cause you’re still gonna breed greed. You gotta eliminate private wealth. But under Marxist-Lenin thought— Leninist thought, and under Jones, it’s revisionist thought, or reformist thought, I prefer to say, you do away with all property. Your shirt’s my shirt, and my shirt’s your shirt. You’ve come in my wardrobe, and I’d be able to respect you— We’re not that conscious of it now, ’cause you’ve come— I’ve had them, they’ve come in my clothes, I’ve given my— every piece of clothes I’ve had, I’ve let them use my shoes, and they’ve come back bad, they don’t polish them even.
Jones: So you’re— we’re not communist yet. There no way you can talk about no communism, because we’re not even good socialists. Now we’re socialist in the sense that the major things are under control here. Housing? We got that under control. We eat out of a central kitchen. But if we didn’t lock it, somebody’d be stealing from the refrigerator, so we’re not communists.
Female: (Unintelligible phrase) laughter—
Man: —humor, isn’t it?
Jones: It— it’s sad, because we got some people here that would steal. We got some people that don’t work as hard as others. So with socialism, only— just the major thing. You’re taking away the wealth, little by little. Communism, you take it all away. (Microphone moves) They can do it yet, except China. And uh, there’s still some of the land— the uh, old factory owners that’re getting paid on their prop— former ownership there. But they’ve taken over more property than anyone. Most all of their communities are living in com— communes. Nearly everyone lives in a commune. But the married couples have their own apartments, but they dine in common, in most communes. They buy their food in common, they— they have common recreation rooms, and common lounges. But they do have their own common— their own private sitting rooms and their own private bedrooms. And I think probably that— that’s as far as you can go, for a long, long while. (Unintelligible phrase)— I don’t think you can communize the bedroom. My opinion is that the best way to live life is a kind of a group communism where everybody shared everything. But no communist has ever tried it before. Like I was saying here, I’ve reached a state of communism, that I’d be glad to share my wife with anybody, for two reasons: to make her happy, and to make everybody else I loved happy.
Marceline: (Too soft)
Jones: Well, I— I— I’m— that’s nice of you to say so, but—
Marceline: (Too soft, laughs)
Jones: —trying to make a point of— of principle.
Female: Yeah, I know.
Jones: But obviously, they must not have felt that secure, because Lenin tried it in Russia. Lenin abolished marriage, for two years, three years. It was group marriage. He wouldn’t allow it, he said it’s counter-revolutionary. He never went to the degree that I did, as severe. I— I— I’m very— I’m very leery of him, because most relationships breed anarchy or outright treason. So I’m— I’m awfully leery of him. I’d be happy for have their husband, their wife, and to fuck all they want to. If you want to fuck five times a night, or five— five times a year, it don’t make any difference to me, I don’t give a shit. But every time you get people fucking, they breed each other— they must— selfish— Sex must be awfully selfish. Because I don’t give a goddamn act— (laughs over word) selfish act. But there must be something about it that’s unwholesome—
End of tape
Tape originally posted November 2001