Q588 Transcript

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.

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Jones: (Concerned) —all of the kind of probing that must be done, have a quick review, while she’s there, who’s going with her. I think it’d be interesting just to stop by the police and have a friendly chat, and just see if Port Kaituma airstrip is being, if anybody— if it can casually be mentioned, so we thought we might have a— we might have a charter coming in today— (Pause) No, I’d rather not. I’d like you to help, if you could. If it’s necessary, all right.

Voice of male too soft.

Jones: You gotta be kind of savvy, though. To say, well, we— we thought a charter of doctors might be coming in today, you know. Have you heard anything we’ve not been able to confirm? Our radio’s out. That’s a good thing. (Pause) Our radio’s out, and have you heard anything about a charter coming in— that way we know if the land lies. If they’re— they’re planning anything on the airstrip. No— Nobody would ever dare invade here by helicopter, I don’t think. I think, ’cause it’s too easy to knock their only means of helicopter, and we could knock ‘em all out. What helicopters they have in the country, we could knock them out.

Voice of male too soft.

Jones: Yeah, they’d know the boat, say they might be coming by boat, that a good point. But you gotta be very cool about this. (Pause) Maybe Paula [Adams] can make— maybe she can—she’s had a lot of savvy dealing with these people, she probably ought to do it. (Pause) (Unintelligible name), don’t you agree? (Unintelligible question)

Voice of male too soft.

Jones: Who’s going to divert? Somebody’s gotta be clever to divert while she’s doing all that talking on the telephone. (Pause) (More even) Sorry to set such a serious tone, but if there was ever an invasion, it’d be an ideal time for an attempted takeover by uh, the fascists’ direct takeover. This’d be the ideal time, with the prime minister and the uh, the prime-minister to be, Hubert Jack [Guyana Minister of Energy and Natural Resources], who’s a friend of ours, I mean friendly, never done anything unfriendly, helped get our bulldozers when nobody else could get them fixed for us, and processed different things, he and the foreign minister, all of them in the Soviet Union, and they’ll be gone for two weeks. That’s why we got a loooong time of wondering. (Pause) And (stumbles for words) this is the st— second day of the 12-day journey. (Pause) And if you’ll study your history, more military takeovers take place while leaders are out of the country than (Firm) any other time. So you can just— at least you call anything other than the risks they’re there. I don’t think that means the ends of us. I still think we have negotiating power, if people have sanity. I do think we have to get down to making it frank uh, a frank interpretation of our will, if it has not been communicated, and I think it has, to some degree. But we’ve have to be sure that it’s been communicated to every last one of the existing cabinet, both socialist and potential CIA or fascist. (Pause) Because that’s all that’ll keep their bastards away, is the will of the people to resist to the last man, woman and child. (Pause) And I think that’s— I think that’s a negotiable commodity, uh, in their eyes. That’s the way they look at it. We’re just commodities to capitalists, and we may— But we represent bodies, bodies of power and action that can embarrass them in the world arena. So if a fascist coup took over, that doesn’t mean we immediately are going to be attacked. Which is always possible, that some people are so insane with narcissism that they might think they could get by with it. And that’s what we need to talk about. Things that are really reasonable, and pertain to our revolutionary significance, our survival, in that order. If we’re really communists, we first concern ourselves about our revolutionary purpose, and then secondarily our survival. (Pause) The temptation in a world without principle is for me to put it in reverse order. And I think there’s an emotional position that I do take to that degree, that I put survival first and revolutionary perspective second, because I kn— I know that I’m the most revolutionary, the most conscientious, the most dedicated— (Tape goes silent for several seconds) — but, whatever. I, I’ll, I’ll be putting a strong emphasis upon survival, because as I see it, our revolutionary impact at this time and survival are somewhat interconnected. I mean our death lends itself to misinterpretation quicker than our life, and that, yet, some of you have got relatives that are determined they’re going to visit here, and some of you are not emotionally geared to them not coming. We gotta talk about that. There’s still conflict here about the relatives coming in here. Worst thing could happen is for your relatives to visit until we have total peace.

Crowd reaction.

Jones: It’ll assure— It’ll assure a White Night, as certain as hell. And if they’re caught in the middle of it, what the hell then. It’s all over. (Pause) Now, you people who have— have relatives and ask me the question, should they come or should they not come, you need to weigh this shit.

Crowd: (Scattered) Right.

Jones: And you got then— then those who have not asked me, like Mr. and Mrs. Moton, whose daughter’s coming, we should consider, what will she do? Will she stay? She’s been friendly. What the fuck if a White Night happens while she’s here? (Pause) Her child’s here. She’s been in the movement. We got to decide these things. We got to talk them out, and we’ll need to t— tap the Motons’ mind very strongly, because I think, she’s one of their early ones do. Did you write a letter trying to— tempt to postpone it till the fall?

Voice too soft.

Jones: She’s a nice woman. I stayed in her home, but this is— it’s one hell of a step from our socialist program back there to stepping into this revolutionary kind of a White Night situation. I think she can make it if she got no attachments. I think a lot of people can make it, they got no attachments down there, undue attachments. Her communiqué was one that j— didn’t want the child to come back, she wanted to come here to visit here. But we can always have to look for subtle messages and see if there’s anything behind it, because anybody can be deceived, used, manipulated— your child, my child, anybody’s child. So we need to discuss that, put that on the agenda. Anybody— who else’s family was it that was coming? I told frank-ass no to one of you sisters, ‘cause I don’t even know your people, so it’s a frank ass no.

Voice too soft.

Jones: Who? Yvette Muldrow’s mother and, uh, shit — what is it? — Sandra’s [Elois Christine Cobb]. (Struggles for words) She’s due when?

Woman: The 20th of April.

Jones: Ain’t this the shits. (Pause) 20th of April. Well, we have to talk about them first. We’ll have to talk about her the first. I don’t know her from apple butter, in terms of consciousness. I do know the Motons’ daughter, I stayed with her for some days, and she seemed to be open at that time. And she of course has sent her son here, who’s lived with us for nearly a year, will be a year then. But it’s a significant thing to think about. (Pause) Do we meet them— Where do we meet them, if they do come? Do we vacation them in uh, Georgetown, what the hell do we do, you see? Uh, we gotta discuss all this stuff, so that you people do not hound me in the path as you did yesterday, wasn’t no later than yesterday, my daughters and I— say that she’ll come and she’ll just go on her way. I’ve heard that shit over and over again, about my daughter being a nice one— I— I had a nice daughter once. She was starving to death and I saved her from starvation, and now she’s helping, trying to destroy this movement, because we have absolute information that they are not content until they kill every last one of us. ‘Cause you know why they want to kill every last one of us, ‘cause they’re afraid one of you will get back and get them.

Crowd: Yeah. (Applause)

Voice off mike too soft.

Jones: Ah, maybe we better discuss this quickly with Russell, ‘cause Russell’s going to have to go in town, he’s good to de— he could talk agriculture to the man and divert him while she’s talking. Uh he— he talks very sensibly on agriculture, one of our most knowledgeable people. Uh, let’s talk about the Motons’ case first, because he’s got to go into town. (Pause) I’d like your frank evaluation. Has the letter gotten— do we have the substance of the letter, Rita, that was transmitted into town? Can you get me the, the wording of it? ‘Cause we— we open your mail to get your information to Georgetown, by the time it gets here, it’s two weeks longer. I hope you all appreciate that that is a good thing to do. ‘Cause some sonofabitch could be trying to tear your life up, before it got out here, so we— we open the mail before it gets here to let you know what the hell’s up. That— That’s the reason we do that. We’re not so much worried about incoming mail as we are outcoming mail. Frankly. It’s the outcoming mail that can be devastating, when people make codes in flowers like some of our people have, and little shit. That’s what can really destroy us. So we’re not concerned about the incoming mail. People say, I don’t get my mail. You— you piss me off, ‘cause you do get your mail. If you don’t get your mail, it’s because the U.S. government is not letting your mail get through, or your goddamn relatives are just not writing, because we don’t give a shit about you getting the mail. It’s not the mail coming in that’s gonna hurt us. Now— if anybody uses their brain, they can understand that, can’t they?

Crowd: Right.

Jones: I think that’s very understandable. (Pause) Okay, what do you think about uh, this situation, how we should handle it? I think she said she’d come in June. Do you think— first place, do you think she will, um, accept a postponement based on the weather and the guest house, which we’re planning to have by September or October. Do you think her schedule will lend herself to that? (Pause) You don’t know about it. Do you know about this, Russell? Do you know about the whole situation? They’d know about it.

Russell: No, no I don’t.

Jones: Nah, I better— I better fill you in. Your sister, that I stayed with, it— whose son’s here — was a very hospitable lady to me, wants to come in June for vacation, told them not to bring the child back but she’s coming in— that’s the substance of that— I remember it from the radio— substance was, don’t bring the child, uh, home, I’m coming there for vacation. Two weeks, I think, I— I’d— I can’t remember the time. Now— (Pause) (Unintelligible aside). Um, so, that’s the substance of it. Wasn’t unfriendly— oh, and she was very concerned about your brother. Sounded friendly, ‘cause a brother — you have a brother, Glen — who’s in trouble — and she was wanting to know if we could do something to help him. And I of course told them— you wrote to say that we would. Which I think will ease that burden, if we take him. And when a man’s up against it— it sounded to me like— from what I got out of the communication, he’s on his way to jail or in trouble with the law, and they’re about to get him. That’s why I said immediately, we’d take him, ‘cause that would ease the situation there. (Pause) That was my, my strategy on that point. Send him ahead. Not wait— he can’t wait till September, for obvious sakes. If you’re in trouble with the law, you can’t wait. (Pause) You don’t wait— the law don’t wait on you when you’re black. Do you think, that, first place that she will— that’ll be acceptable to her? Do you— I mean, we’re just anticipating, we’re trying— We don’t know, we can only think. What do you think she’ll— she’ll react to that? Our— our response was, do you— what’d you say, that we would help the child, the boy? Did you say we would? Okay.

Woman: Yes— yes, Dad.

Jones: Good. That’s the instructions I gave. So that shows my instructions are getting through to you, though I didn’t give them directly, I gave them through Rita. And it’s a heavy— even though I gave them through a secretary, and the secretary gives them to Rita, and sometimes, things get lost in the chain of command. My instructions were to ask if it would be possible— the weather’s more delightful in the fall, or because our summers are the same, uh, we’ll have guest housing by that time, but your— your brother, of course, we’ll help, because of all that she’s done, your family, what you mean to me, we’ll help uh, we’ll take the br— the young man in trouble. Is that the essence of what you wrote in the letter?

Woman: Yes, Dad.

Jones: Now how do you think she’ll react? Can she change her vacation, or is it one of those things you cannot change?

Woman: I’m sure she can change her vacation, Dad.

Jones: Okay, then we may not have a particular problem. Do you see it that way, Brother Moton, too?

Moton: Well, ah, ah, it sounds all right to me, but this is my first knowing about her writing a letter. She hadn’t explained to me that she had wrote a letter, and uh, and what— and that Rita had talked to her.

Jones: Well— oh no, she hadn’t talked to her. Uh, hold it, now hold it. She hadn’t talked to nobody— oh, uh, Rita, oh, I’m sorry. I thought you said your daughter. Um— (laughs) well, don’t uh, don’t blame, it just happened yesterday, I think. So there’s not much time we’ve had to do much. People call out to do things— but be certainly be told to you. We don’t keep any secrets. The situation is that uh, I had to move quickly, and I didn’t care who wrote the letter, I didn’t give a damn if you wrote the letter or she wrote the letter, so there was no instruction to go to her. It was understoo— He didn’t know either, so I wouldn’t— I wouldn’t— he— I didn’t have time to communicate to all three of you. And I imagine Rita found her more available. Um. I’ve told you the substance of it. I don’t think that’s the issue in the first place. I don’t think I need to get into the polemics of that, I don’t think that’s the issue. Nobody’s trying to cut you out of any information, ‘cause I’ve just now give you all the information. That’s the substance of her letter of request, that you— so maybe she didn’t want to worry you about your son. Your son’s in trouble. Your wife probably had a good motive for that. ‘Cause I— I’m sure that— father connects with sons more, and he’s in trouble. He’s in some kind of trouble. And she asked us if we could do something to help, and I said yes. (Pause) Now that’s the issue. How do we respond to that?

Male: Ah, oh, I, uh— Dad, I feel that uh, she’ll prob— she will— I think she will accept, you know, what you said, and come at a later time. ‘Cause she’s usually pretty reasonable.

Jones: I figured even though it was a White Night, that if your son was in trouble, and it sounded like serious trouble, he’d rather be here facing the White Night than staying in Philadelphia going to an angry jail. How do you feel about that, Brother Moton?

Moton: Well, I— I imagine he would rather face a White Night here than to facing a jail in Philadelphia.

General conversation.

Jones: Somebody, I think, uh—

Moton: What do I feel like? Oh, I— I will— I would much rather him to be here than to be in the jail in Philadelphia, or a jail anyplace.

Jones: Well, the— the tone— you’ll have a letter— see, we cannot— the— the boat— you don’t get mail till the boat comes, so we open the mail in Georgetown to find out what the hell’s going on, it gives us about a week— this case, it’ll be two weeks. Maybe. No, it won’t, it’ll be a week. But that week, we— we feel is very important, I’m sure all of you see the importance, is open the mail the minute it hits Georgetown. Because it can be just the thing like that. Now a week might not wait on this young man. A week may not wait on him. Fact of the matter, if we can get some calm, I think, if we— we ought to pass on by Sa— San Francisco a phone patch to her— you hear me?

Moton: Yes.

Jones: I’m sure she’d take a collect call at a late hour — ‘cause we’ve got to watch every penny — but if she don’t, we’ll still make the call, ‘cause I— for— for the Motons, and tell them that they better send that boy— man on. ‘Cause the man— uh, then tell them, there’s— that a letter’s coming about their vacation, it’d be better that when we have a guest house and so forth, but that, that young man, by the time that mail gets back there, may be, the trouble may have hit him, um— (Pause) I gathered it was ah— so much traffic goes through me, but I gathered it was something to do with dope. Has he been in drugs?

Woman: As far as I know, he hasn’t, Father. He— At one time, he—

Jones: Ah, they may have been setting him up.

Woman: At one time—

Jones: But I think it was the implication of the letter. We’ll know exactly, but there’s some trouble. He’s in trouble. (Pause) Glen Moton, Junior. Is that his name? (Pause) That’s okay, that’s him.

Woman: At— at one time, uh, Father, he was a policeman—

Jones: Uh-oh.

— and I don’t know whether this is the source or not. And uh—

Jones: If he is a policeman—

Woman: He was—

Jones: —if he was ever a policeman and he ever left it, and they don’t— they don’t ha— they don’t give you no peace (struggles for words), they will never give you peace.

Moton: He had a conflict with them ah, over a number of issues, and uh—

Jones: It figures.

Moton: —and so eventually, he had that to— to get out of the uh, force, uh, he had, you know, some —

Jones: He lives in Philadelphia?

Moton: Yes, Dad.

Jones: (Struggles for words) —the police, that’s where the police burned down a whole— a couple of sections— whole apartments, so they— they’ve got his number. [Philadelphia Mayor Frank] Rizzo’s got his own secret police. Ah, it may be wrong. I— I can’t tell you for the fact, I wouldn’t want to worry you about that, and if it was, if he didn’t use it, I’ll bet they’ve set him up in it. Maybe is that what they’ve done. I don’t know. But he’s in trouble.

Young woman: Um, a factor to be considered about your daughter coming, if she gets here, will she be apt to want to take the child home, when she gets here and fi— and, you know, possibly get upset about something or—

Jones: Attention. There’s been the security arrangement, and they— they say that anybody that goes to sleep will be arrested immediately. There’ll be no talk, ifs, and or but about it. (Pause) How is that— is that suitable?

Crowd: (General response) Yes, Dad.

Jones: All right.

Young woman: But I wondered if that might be a possibility—

Jones: Huh?

Young woman: —that she might want to take the child home once she got here.

Jones: It did— The letter didn’t sound uh, out to be— be candid. Well, that’s a good question, but the letter did not sound— He may— She may want to take the child home, but it didn’t sound that way. The way that the letter was read to me. And they read it to me. And it’s coded, it—and you have to code everything. You can’t write— You can’t give nothing over the radio directly, but it didn’t sound like she was coming in any unfriendly way. ‘Cause if she wanted the child home, uh, why vacation? (Pause) If she’s hostile and wants the child home, why vacation, and tell you not to bring the child, or— evidently you’d had some arrangement you might bring the child home in the summer. She said, don’t bring the child home in the summer, because I’m coming this way. (Pause) But it was vacation. But then the next part of the letter had to do with Glen Moton. Ah, to my knowledge, it was not anything unfriendly in the letter. But now, if you think there’s some savvy shit, you think he’s a capable of an agent, you’ve got to look at that. If he’s capable of being a police agent, and they’re involved— I know you got one sister that’s very hostile, very nasty. (Pause) Married to that doctor. Isn’t she married to the doctor? Umm-hmm. I— I don’t like her attitude. (Pause) That’s more perceptive than anything else. I don’t have anything to base it on, but just what I feel. (Pause)

Male: I think—

Jones: And he’s the problem there. The goddamn doctor’s the problem.

Male: Uh, I re— recall uh, a few years ago, when we came out to— and spoke to the both of them about getting in— involved in the church, uh, (unintelligible name — Don Beck?) and some of us all went out and talked to him, ah, his whole attitude was hostile. So, and um— she seemed— (Pause) His whole attitude was hostile, and he seemed to follow her lead.

Jones: He followed her?

Male: I mean she— No, she seemed to follow his lead in whatever he was saying, so uh, you know, I’m really not surprised, at least abo— about that situation. They said that they had, you know, you know, worked to get into this capitalist trip, you know, ah, this upper class shit, you know, for a long time, and that they— and they— they called us right from the jump, when we told them the things we were doing, say, oh, you’re socialist. Well, you know, we’re not going to get off into that, you know, and so after that, we— I just haven’t ha— had anything more to do with them, myself.

Jones: Mmm-hmm.

Male: Um. But as for ah, Glen, ah, I think that we should— since he has had a— since he has had a, a background in the police force, he has, he was on there for about ten years or so, I think we should consider that he could be coming here as an agent, you know, that should be considered, because, ah, you know—

Jones: What’s he been doing since then? What— What instances— What issues has he had with the police? Has he had any run-ins with them?

Male: Okay, uh, he’s had— the, the run-ins he’s had was, for instance, ah, when they, he, he arrested a uh, black woman once for, I forget exactly what it was, but brought her in, into the ah, police station. When he came back the next morning, they had ah, some of the p— white policemen there had beat her up, and he told them that the next time that they come in, ah, the— the next time he brings somebody in, that they better not mess with them, or he would— he would deal with them. And so they tried to take his gun, and he said, ah, you can try and take it, and we’ll have a shoot-out right here. And after that, there was, you know, this was one thing after another, he was constantly having run-ins with them, because he wouldn’t back down from them, so he ended up having—

Jones: (talks over him) Doesn’t sound like an agent type. What did he go on to? What did he go on to? What kind of work did he go on to, then?

Male: Ah— He went on after a bit to, to, he went on and finished his schooling, ah, went on to t— to the university?

Jones: What’d he study?

Woman: Criminal justice.

Male: Criminal—

Jones: Criminal justice. Criminal justice did— for what reason? If he’s not in police work, for what reason did he study criminal justice?

Woman: I really don’t know, Dad. All I uh, know, he was working at a prison, but the last time I was in Philadelphia, in March—

Jones: Did he have any trouble there at all?

Woman: I really don’t know. (Pause) I really don’t know.

Jones: He didn’t tell you if he was having any.

Woman: No, no. I only—

Jones: (talks over woman) Ah, we’ll have to find out. I guess we’ll have to find that from phone patch exactly what this trouble is, in a coded way. The slant of it sounded like drugs. Now that— that— that— that’s a— but your codes, so much can break down in codes. But if he’s black, that’s a typical set-up. If there’s somebody wants to get his ass, they’ll set him up with drugs. It’s done all the time.

Man: It’s possible that he might be off into that, ah, because his whole— in the past year or so, his whole life has seemed to have just sort of broken down, his pattern and such is—

Jones: (angry) Will you shut up? If it’s your son, you— you’d shut your mouth.

Crowd: Right.

Man: I had a long distance phone call from Winnie ah, last year, right before I came down here, when she was saying that she was concerned that— because he had uh, left his wife and, and children and ah, you know, and you know, was just showing all kinds of uh, attitudes that were uncharacteristic of him. He always was rather ah, stoic, you know, always, you know, never would cry, never would show weakness or anything, and, and he was, you know, just showing attitudes that there—

Jones: Well, if he thinks— if he’s black and he thinks, and he obviously does, enough to say he’ll shoot somebody if they mess with his— the people he b— he brings in when they’re beating them up, sounds like— it sou— the man could very easily have uh, run amok of the goddamn fascist law, and realized that the law is not worthy of its respect. And all of his times spent studying it, then disillusionment because he’s got into something that isn’t worth shit, because the law only works for the rich and the white, and then the white rich, some of you better remember, so I— I would imagine that it’s sincere, it’s a sincere need that he’s brought to— she’s brought to our attention. We’ll all know more when I get whatever notes I gave her. Well, go ahead. I— I think Glen wants to say something—

Glen: Uh, speaking, I— I— I really don’t know what his trouble could be, but he went— he had the job with the state. Uh, he has a job with the state. And so, uh, once upon a time, uh, was it five or six years ago, he was offered a, a job as a narcotic agent, and he told me he turned it down. And that’s why he didn’t go with the— a couple more of his uh, friends that were policemen, they transferred over into the narcotic. But he didn’t go on account he said they would want to send him out west somewhere for the training, and he didn’t want to go out West, and so— But I’ve never knowed him to have any, uh, connection with dope any kind of way.

Jones: Well, when you’re black and you feel and you sense and you get aware, and you don’t have a communist movement to come to, it’s very easy to get caught up in drugs.

Crowd: (Scattered) Right.

Jones: Very easy. You get totally despaired. It sounds like he despair of his ho— home breaking up, he not being able to maintain himself— All right, if the— I said it’s nothing— nothing uncommon to be set up. If they don’t like him, they just set him up. But I wouldn’t feel bad— I wouldn’t— I don’t— that don’t bother me, I’ll take him if he’s on drugs. Hell, half this place has been on drugs.

Crowd: Right.

Jones: That don’t bother me any.

Woman: I remember it, one time, Dad, he was telling me about uh, they were br— building concentration camps, that’s before I came out to stay with the family?

Jones: Yeah?

Woman: And uh, he was telling me that they wouldn’t— the time that they were building the concentration camps, he said, uh, they had planned on taking all of the black policemen and marching them in first, because they knew—

Jones: He’s right.

Woman: —they knew that they would fight back. So I don’t know whether this is one of the problems or not. I don’t know.

Jones: Ahh, well. I’m glad for that s— bit of salient information, because one of the concentration camps is set up in Pennsylvania. Allentown. He’s right. He’s right. That’s the— one of the concentration camps where blacks will be put when the showdown comes. He— I would imagine, it’s got to him. He’s probably said something, or crossed somebody, stepped on somebody’s toes, maybe he’s lost his job, maybe he did use a drug, or maybe he got set up with drugs, whatever, it sounds to me like a legitimate story. I’ll take my chances. Your opinion is, she’ll probably then would uh, we take him, and help him, her— holding her off on vacation would not be that big a problem.

Woman: I don’t think so. I— I don’t think so, Dad.

Jones: After all, we’re only asking her, anyway, we’re not saying ab— absolutely, we just— I think you just ask her if that would be possible. Okay. Any more comment about it? (Pause) Umm-hmm. Okay.

Man in crowd: Just one more, ah, that you mentioned earlier, Dad. Where would they— Would they meet in Georgetown, or would she come here? If she vacation here—

Jones: It depends. It depends upon how much fascism has come down. By September, she might be more than willing to understand everything we’re doing here. And prob— maybe not even want to go back. See, September’s a loooonng way away. And the way shit’s coming down these days. It just depends. If not, then maybe they can meet her in Georgetown. We got a beautiful headquarters there. Whatever. I don’t think that— I think that that’s a good issue— I think we have to decide that, case by case, point by point. But we got a more immediate one to decide, and I do think that that— your question becomes highly relevant, then. Ah— she’s a very, to me, down to earth person, I think she’d learn quickly— Has she got a husband? No, didn’t have. She hasn’t got that many attachments. (Pause) I’m— I’m—I’m believing that anybody’s black and hears, thinks and sees some of these meetings, uh, I think that it soon gets— the truth soon gets to them. Maybe she might decide never to go back. You can’t tell. That’s always a possibility.

Man: I don’t really think she has that much back there to hold her, because, uh, she’s experienced a lot of frustration. Ah, she worked for ah, for instance the, the, one of the biggest, ah, insurance companies in the world back there, she worked her way up. They only hired— They have a, a limited amount of black folks they’ll hire, and she worked her way up in the company to a, like a, a high administration post, Assis— Assistant Director of Administration, and they wouldn’t let her go any higher, and uh, and they— then they started trying to trap her and trying to fire her and all kinds of stuff. She fought it for a while, but then she just said, you know, hell with it—

Jones: (breaks in) Oh yeah, that opens up— I talked to her in the kitchen one night for two hours, she told me more shit done to her and black friends and relatives, people— I— I don’t— I— I like her, personally. And so um— and she liked us enough to put her child here. And she hasn’t given us any trouble during this year. She hasn’t made any issue, has it? And Glen, she’s had— she hasn’t made no issue of any kind, has she, this year? I haven’t followed any mail and— I haven’t followed it, because she’s not one person I felt I had to ba— pay any attention to. ‘Cause I had very good— She was very good to me, I was— I— the most pleasant stay I ever had in any home. She was more thoughtful, she didn’t impose on me, didn’t talk to me unless I talked to her. She never— She gave me more peace than I’ve ever had in any home outside of our own congregation that I’ve ever been in. (Stumbles over words) And that was, to me, significant, ‘cause there a lot of folk in that house, and she had lots of us in that house. Coming out of her ears. (Pause) And it was yet peaceable. So I’ll do uh— we’ll— we’ll— we’ll entertain her, if we feel— you people think in the meantime whether we— about whether she should come in here or not. And that’ll a lot— I got a lot of faith in your judgments, and then we’ll weigh— A White Night’s a hell of a thing to run in to, though. We’ve come through so many of them, you get immune to some degree, because you know there’s a light at the end of the tunnel, but, for— to get in the middle of one of them is, uh, — I (Stumbles over words) hope that people slide through one. It’d be nice for her to see this, because this is the most impressive. Georgetown doesn’t impress me. This is what impresses me. The country.

Crowd: Right.

Jones: Well, we got time. That’s why I wanted to hold off, because I saw a month— Jesus. And, and, and our weather’s off, it might be right in the middle of a rainy season, right up to, you know, her ankles in rain. Okay, I— I think that that’s resolved for the time. We’ll make a telephone call and see what the hell the trouble is and try to speed up the case, because I’m a little hesitant waiting on your letter. You letter, ah, won’t get there— if he’s in immediate trouble, it might be too late, so I think we ought to move with a telephone call.

Two voices: Thank you, Dad.

Jones: Okay. (Pause)

Crowd: Applause

Jones: Here it is. (Pause) Um, here it is, here it is, here it is, ah— this is the c— code, decoded, as best we’ve got. Glen has gotten himself—

End of side 1.

Jones: — comes in and out, of house all— what’s that? All mixed up. And then the suggestion is, anything we could do— and we’re offering, we’re offering, we’ll see. (Pause) Now, there’s Betty is the other daughter, isn’t she? Yeah, that’s the one I— you got to watch that connection. You really do have to be careful with that connection. Okay? (Pause) Thank you. (Pause) ‘Cause I— I don’t— that doctor— the things he said to our people that was meeting with him, was, was cruel, they were not only ah, insensitive, they were cruel. He’s cruel, and she’s affected by him. She’s like the typical woman in American society, she—they give their mind over to the man.

Isolated voices: Right.

Jones: Monday, things’ll open up. Lotta people’s minds. Yes.

Man in crowd: Dad? I’m concerned about another brother (unintelligible). Russell has, and he— has written up the situation, and I just wanted to uh—

Jones: What’s the other brother?

Man in crowd: The other brother’s involved in a (unintelligible) don’t know exactly what he’s involved in, but uh, I felt it should, it should be uh, brought back to your attention, that he might s— (Pause)

Jones: Well, this brother’s obviously not an agent, he’s not pushing. She’s pushing for him. Your sister’s put this one in Philadelphia. I don’t think Glen, who’s in all this trouble, and they’re chasing after him, uh, I don’t think he is pushing, which she is more or less seeing if we— she can make the overture, if you know what I mean. The offer. So I don’t— I don’t think he’s an agent. Now who’s this other brother? What’s this about?

Man: This is one that ah, I’d met in Los Angeles.

Jones: (Distracted, talks off mike) Stop. Cottages one six seven nine ten 20 24 29 31 33 34 35 36 37 38 43 48 52, now please report immediately. Or there’s gonna be a matter of discipline. Truly two four. Two and four in apartment four. The— That’s important to the security of the— that’s gotta be done. I don’t want to have to tell you anymore. That’s gotta be done, the moment session opens. Okay.

Voice talking off mike: Rochelle [Halkman]—

Jones: Come immediately and see Rochelle and Mary Wotherspoon in the back. Yes, now what is this, uh, son?

Man: Uh, this was the one who had— he had been— had been missing for a long time, we hadn’t seen him, he had traveled back and forth from Mexico, uh, and you know, like we hadn’t seen him in about five or six years, and I just happened to be riding down the street, and ah, in Los Angeles last year, and I ran across him, ah, and like he had done a lot of, ah — ah, what was that? — like, he had been making movies in Mexico and he was writing a script at the time, and he said he was, was trying to get into the movies in California and—

Jones: Did he cut off all contact with his family?

Man: He had cut off all contact, until that time when I ran into him, and chatted with him a bit. And he was—

Jones: And he never never attempted to make any more contact with his parents or you?

Man: Since that time?

Jones: Yeah.

Man in crowd: Oh. Ah, I— since that time, he has, uh, he has talked—

Jones: Shh! Quiet.

Man: I understand he made a phone call back uh, to the ah, East Coast and had said that he was going to try and come home last ah, Christmas, but he didn’t come.

Jones: He didn’t come.

Man: Which is typical of him.

Jones: How many years he been separated from you?

Man: Ohhh—

Jones: Glen— Glen seems to know the—

Glen Moton: Oh, around— I haven’t seen him, I think, in around seven years, I hadn’t seed him. I think it’s something around there—

Jones: I don’t think there’s a problem. If you know he’s not interested in us, what the prob— I don’t see any particular problem. He’s not interested in you. He’s cut away, uh, what is it, what is it, I fail to see the relevance of what this has to do with you.

Man: (mike cuts in) — recall, I didn’t recall exactly what he did—

Jones: Okay.

Man: — but he’d been in a foreign country—

Jones: Okay. He’d been in a foreign— but he’s not trying to get a hold of us, we’re not trying to get a hold of him. So there ain’t no problem to us. Okay.

Glen: As the fellow spoke before, a while ago about ah, about George was hostile about or uh, however that words—

Jones: Who is that?

Glen: My uh, my son-in-law. Well, you see, all right. He thought that you were (unintelligible word) a Christian organization. He (stutters) understand the literature with there said Pastor Jim Jones. Well, he didn’t believe in no kind of a religion. That’s for definitely sure. And my daughter Betty was a member of the Rosticrucious.

Jones: Rosticrucians.

Glen: Yeah, and so she was a Rosticrucian for a, you know, a number of years. And—

Jones: Shh! Well, it’s a— it’s a metaphysical group that believes in, I don’t know, ah, a whole lot of um, symbology, astra— astra— astrological concepts, but there was some— some of our people met with them, and they were hostile towards uh, he was very hostile towards socialism. Very hostile. That’s what I mean by— they— our people— he, he made it very clear about that.

Female voice too quiet.

Glen: Well, I— I hadn’t heard that, Father, so I— I didn’t know about that.

Jones: They may change, you know. She may change. But uh, I just want you to be very cautious about the— about her. She— uh, yes, Sister Moton.

Woman: And of course, Dad, uh, since that time that he spoke with Don Bacon, uh, the other groups, well he uh, went back to school, and uh, he studied to be— become a doctor, that is, uh, podiatric um—

Jones: Podiatrist.

Woman: Podiatrist, yes.

Jones: Umm-hmm.

Woman: And uh, he was ge— being given a very hard time and of course, he, he—

Jones: Peace.

Woman: I do believe he believed in you, because uh, like I gave him uh, one of your pictures, and I told him, I said, now you carry this on your key chain, because they were— he was being given a very hard time, and I said, I’m sure you’ll get through. And he did. He kept that. And so I re— I really don’t know, I— I— it’s hard for me to say, yes, what’s he’s, you know really like, because I’ve only visited— in fact, they visited me, because I’d never had a chance to really not, you know, in going back, with the— our time was so short and I never got the chance—

Jones: No, I just had this— no, I have this feeling, you just want to take a little care— caution. There’s something— There’s something you need to be very cautious about. That’s all I’m saying. Was is it? Any writing— has he written anything? Have they written?

Woman: Yes, Betty has written several letters, uh, Dad, and I don’t know—

Jones: Did she make any comments about the work at all?

Woman: Well um, I don’t know whether she read— she reads quite a bit— I don’t know whether she has read um, um, magazine article or what, but that was when she uh, began to get, you know, a little suspicious or something like that. As far as— that’s what I could see, you know. But I’ve been trying to reassure her, in my writing, that, you know, everything’s all r— all right, which it is, you know.

Jones: Well, of course, it is. Principles are right. We’d like a little more peaceful setting (short laugh), I’m sure. We— we— we’d love not to have enemies trying to get after us, but the risk— the principles are worth the risk. In one— anything worth— we said that all of our life, our grandmothers and granddads, anything worth living for is worth dying for, and anything worth having is worth fighting for. So, um— well, I— I’d like for you to review some of those things she said of, of a negative nature so we can deal with some of it. Maybe there’s some way we could help to educate her about specifi— specific things. I don’t know what her— As I said, I haven’t uh, kept my uh, tab on her.

Woman off mike: There’s one comment she made—

Jones: What comment did she make?

Woman off mike: Mrs. Moton had written, saying something, Michael getting up, uh, Michael, I guess, you wrote and mentioned her that Michael, little Michael had gotten up in a meeting and testified something, you know, nice about the place. And she wrote back as having some concern that he was getting too much religion pushed on him or something to that effect.

Jones: Now that was the mother, wasn’t it?

Woman off mike: Winnie. That was Winnie.

Jones: (Voice starts to slur) That was Winnie, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But that was handled some time ago, wasn’t it? How long ago has that been?

Woman off mike: That’s been several weeks ago.

Jones: Yeah, well, she’s had time to get the answer on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, sure, (stumbles over words) we’re not very religious. (Laughs shortly)

Glen: Uh uh, see, that’s what I was saying, Father. But George, he always spoke well of your speech. After you were there a couple of times — I wasn’t there, when I— when I came back, and he and I was talking, and he, he, he, he laughed at the, uh, your program, and the way you speak. But ah, what I said, he never had nothing to do with religion. He always spoke well of, you know—

Jones: I don’t know. I never met the man, and I wouldn’t make a judgment, but others relayed in direct conversation his comments about socialism. So that’s the only barrier you’ve got to do there, is to educate the man. And time will take care of that. They’ll all be educated. No black person’s gonna be protected. (Pause)

Woman: (unintelligible)


Tape off for several seconds

Jones: Yes, um, Sister Moton, I’ve got to read something, (unintelligible) have to get these people started. Go ahead. You people can talk. Moderate this, Johnny, where— (voice fades off mike)

Sister Moton: I want to say, Dad, that uh, most of the meetings he and his wife attended wh— while you were in Philadelphia, and especially the uh, the last meeting he was there— in fact they both were there. And, matter of fact, their names were called there at the time that you were, spoke of um, having a place here in the Promised Land, you know, for different people, their names were called out in revelations.

Jones: I see. Oh, good.

Russell: Uh, in reference to the, uh, the brother that I had met in Los Angeles, uh, I did— when I did run into him, it was on Pico, Pico Boulevard, if that’s something to consider, um, which was, you know, Pico was close to the church.

Male off mike, unintelligible

Jones: Revolution?

Russell: We were— Right, we were on our way to the store that we had down there and uh, he was— he said he had some sort of s— ah, store business there, ah, right there on Pico Boulevard. And he was acting rather strange when I met him.

Male off mike: He was at the jubilee also.

Russell: Right, he came to the—

Jones: Huh?

Russell: —to the Muslim Jubilee.

Jones: Huh?

Female off mike: I met him also, you remember (voices over her) listening to him at the Temple in the alley.

Jones: He was acting strange?

Male off mike: No, no—

Russell: Right, he— when I first ki— got off, got the truck and went up him, and you know, say hey, how ya doin’?

Male off mike: Was this before or after the Jubilee, now?

Russell: This is af—

Male off mike: This is before the Jubilee, right?

Russell: This is after the Jubilee, I think.

Male off mike: This was before the Jubilee.

Russell: Well, I don’t remember, to tell you the truth.

Female off mike: That’s the first time—

Male off mike: It was, it was before the Jubilee. (Pause) We were in the truck, we was in that, that old truck?

Russell: Yeah, uh-huh.

Male off mike: And the truck stopped running before the Jubilee.

Russell: Okay.

Female: Um, Russell, you introduced me to him in the alley at Peoples Temple—

Russell: Right.

Female: —Church in L.A. at one time, and you told me that he had an upper Holt Street um, business on Pico.

Russell: Right.

Female: So he was at the Temple—

Russell: Right.

Female: —in the alley.

Jones: What was that? I missed that, now.

Female: Russell introduced me to his brother at um, in Los Angeles at the Temple, and uh, he told me that, that he also had a business on Pico. So he was at the Temple in L.A. It wasn’t during a service time. It was some off time.

Male off mike: You said at the Jubilee that that was the first time you had seen him in about seven years. At the Jubilee. You said, there’s my brother, you’d been— you weren’t sure, and then you said, I haven’t seen him for about seven years. So then this other must have occurred after the Jubilee.

Russell: Yeah. It did, it did, it did.

General crowd noise. Tape cuts off for undetermined period of time.

Jones: Okay, okay. That problem’s resolved. Now what about the people connected with uh, Sandra and Yvette? Uh, what about this? We gotta discuss this very quick. (Pause) ‘Cause that’s upon us. What is today?

Several voices: Thirteenth.

Jones: Thirteenth.

Voices in crowd unintelligible.

Jones: Shh! Let— (Pause) Better cool it now, pu— people, put more security through the ranks here, and put these people uh, into, into line. We can’t have it. One thing, it— very difficult for me, when I don’t get rest is this (unintelligible word), this enormous amount of buzzing. (Pause) We— we have able— we having to wait— we can’t— we can’t know what way to move until we get some contexts and feedback on— One encouraging thing is the Attorney General is not directly entering in the case now. United States. But, uh, there’s other— (Short laugh) yeah, other answers we’ve got before us. And we’ve got to go back to work and produce. We still have to realize the realities that are with us. (Pause) Anything can happen, but I don’t see that’s the end. Um, the police— as I say, the gov— the army has been— the head of the army has been very friendly, told us that any of our people went— tried to go across the border and cause any difficulty, they’d get them. They beefed up the army, beefed up the security, we’ve seen evidences of that. We’ve had, um— (Pause) And certainly anybody’d be a fool, trying to go anywhere in these goddamn times, they, you wouldn’t trust your ass for nothing. And then we gotta talk about, if worst came to worst, going back, because the moment you go back, they’ll think you’re up to something. They won’t believe it, and they won’t believe it, and they’ll— they’ll arrest anybody did try to come back to do any kind of justice. (Pause) So it’s going to be a trick getting people back in there. We’re gonna have to talk about that today. Be sure to put that on the list. (Pause) Okay, now what do you folk think about this situation with her, and where’s her head, and how does she think about the movement and has she been poisoned, affected to what degree, and h— how does she relate to us in general?

Another Female: When I left, she uh— she was excited about coming to see Yvette, because she hadn’t seen her in about nine months, and uh, she— she told me she was going to bring some uh, medical supplies for the uh, clinic, like thermometers and like that.

Jones: Umm-hmm.

Another Female: And uh, she had heard a lot of negative things about the— about over here—

Jones: Name— would you name what? Name what, beca— or who? Or who? If you know who, then I know what. ‘Cause I know the liars.

Another Female: She, uh— she uh, met this lady that lives about two blocks or so from, from her.

2nd female: She’s Ruth Oliver’s grandmother.

Male: What?

3rd female: Ruth Oliver’s grandmother.

Jones: Oh, Jesus. (Pause)

3rd female: She had told her a lot of things, when she had came over here to try to see her sons. And she uh, told a lot of stuff that had happened to her.

Jones: What was it that happened to her?

3rd female: Like um — let me see — she told her that, that when she came to Georgetown, that uh, she wasn’t allowed to come into— to Jonestown to see uh, the two sons, and uh—

Jones: You bet your ass, ‘cause they come in here and try to kidnap ‘em.

3rd female: Right.

Jones: And that’s true. That’s one. I’m glad to hear they can tell the truth on one sentence at least. (Laughs) Let’s go on the next one.

3rd female: And that uh, in Georgetown that, that uh, the people would try to steal all your jewelry, and, and not to wear any jewelry and stuff like that.

Jones: (incredulous) What?

3rd female: — and, and that—

Jones: (Unintelligible sound of frustration) When the black folk talking about black folk now, there’s— those mean black folk in Georgetown. Isn’t that awful? Isn’t that the way all jewel— I hope they stole some. I hope that some sonofabitch did— that sounds like the— maybe the Olivers got some shit stolen from them. I hope they did. (High laugh) I meditated that somebody would choke and rob ‘em, but— (Laugh)

3rd female: Let’s see, uh— she told her that uh— I’m thinking. (Turns from mike to talk to someone) Can you think (unintelligible)

Gravely voice: Yeah, ‘cause she said, she had saw Eva Brown and, and uh, and— who else?

3rd female: Diane Louie.

Gravely voice: Diane Louie. And that they wouldn’t speak to her, and if she ever saw Eva again, that she’d cut her throat and— this is what she said. This is what Bruce Oliver’s grandmother said, right?

Male in crowd: That was Bruce’s mother.

Gravely voice: Yeah.

Male: That wasn’t— that wasn’t—

Gravely voice: (Cuts off male) Yes, she’s been constantly communicating with uh, Yvette and Sandra’s mother, but uh, Sandra and Yvette’s mother refuses to listen to her and be— believe her. You know, she’s still friendly toward the cause, and— Matter of fact, she uh, has made all kind of offers to get things for us to bring when we came, you know, medical supplies. She’s all right.

Jones: She’s a nurse.

Gravely voice: 23 years.

Jones: What kind contact she had with our meetings in the past?

Gravely voice: Well, she came to, what, three or four meetings. She was at— uh, well, she— unlike Yvette, Yvette came with us the first time, she joined. Her mother’s been there twice or three times, something like that. And you know, she, uh, we’ve invited her two or three times — well, more that that — and she, she never wants to come to, you know, to meetings and that. But she never speaks negative about it. She’s always positive about the meetings, and— the only— about the only thing is, she’s possessive of, of uh, the children, she’s possessive, she likes to be close to my kids, you know, my uh, children and, and uh, Yvette and Sandra and myself too, matter of fact, and uh, I’m afraid that it’s m— more concern about that than, you know, the positive aspect.

Jones: The cause. Oh yeah. Sure. I’m sure that’s the truth.

3rd female: She also, be— just before we left, she said that uh, she would pack up and come and go with us if it wasn’t for my other sister, who was uh, about to have an operation.

Jones: Well, that’s encouraging.

Female talks to Jim in aside, unintelligible.

Jones: Just a minute. Mazor followed us there? (Pause)

Male in crowd: Betty, what do you have to say?

Betty: Well, in her letters to me, she seemed kinda positive, she always um, talking about how much she miss me and how much she want to see me and stuff like that, and um, before I left— I know that— well, before I left, she didn’t want me to come, but in her letter, she seem— she seemed to change a little bit. Now she know I’m here and I’m not coming back.

Jones: Well, fact is, that she, uh, she didn’t put up all that much tear to stop you from coming anyway. Since then, another daughter— Well, I think you two will have to meet her, there though. I— I think it would be dreadful dreadful shit to— to take a chance on meeting her here. At the present state anyway. Be too bad, because this is an impressive place. (Pause) ‘Course something gonna happen in eight days, (unintelligible). (Pause) It’s too bad that she can’t meet it here, in my opinion.

Marceline: I— I think— I don’t know her that well, but I— well, I know her very little, but I have talked to her on the phone a few times, and I think she would be impressed with what’s happening here, if in fact there would be a period of time when we (unintelligible as JJ talks over her) some kind of a crisis.

Jones: Has long is she here? How long is she coming here?

Female: Two weeks. She’s coming for two weeks, but she was planning to go to Georgetown, rather than— they told her that she couldn’t come here until August, but she preferred to come— go to Georgetown in April, so she could see Yvette. She wasn’t that interested in seeing ah, Jonestown right now.

Jones: Well, then, let’s take that then and leave it there. (Pause) If she comes understanding that, then there’s no problem.

Female off mike: She going to the hotel?

Jones: But we want to watch where she’s use— she going to hotel?

Female off mike: That’s where I’m asking her, or staying with us.

Another female: She’s staying with us, until (Jones talks over her)

Jones: Well, she should stay with us. I— I have no objection to that.

Woman: — hotel reservation when I—

Another woman: I— I— I said to— I gave her all the telephone numbers—

Jones: But don’t fail to be— realize— don’t blind yourself to any relative. It could be that she’s a spy. That’s conceivable.

Marceline: But she did offer to make hotel reservations—

Jones: They’ll pay— they pay big money, till they get through with the people. I don’t— I’m not saying she is, I don’t have any inclinu— inclination about it, but I’m just saying, don’t underestimate that prospect. And you can pick up certain information, even in our headquarters, that uh— if it wasn’t for you, wasn’t for your kids, I wouldn’t even consider it. But I’d— I’d like to f— offset some of this shit— (stumbles for words) obviously, we were not friendly to the Olivers. They had tried to shoot Marceline, they had tried to stab her, they had tried to do all kinds of crap, there was no way we could be friendly to the Olivers. They didn’t— They were— They were insane. If they’d a tried— If they had tried to be friendly at all, we would’ve been most accepting of them, and they were going to meet with them, there was going to be a friendly meeting, until they made demands. (Pause) They demanded that the Embassy pick up their children, they demanded they were going to come in here, and they were going to take them away. Insane people. ‘Cause they were paid to do it. So we left them there. Indeed, we did. We didn’t have another thing to do with them. You don’t want a thing to do with people saying the evil things they were saying. They were saying terrible lies. And now, I’ve done everything under the sun, they’re so evil, I don’t even want to think about them, I can’t even imagine that woman could ever have been in our church, and be as evil as she is. Be black, on top of it, and go back and talk about, watch your jewelry, they’ll steal it. Outrageous bunch of people. That’s something you expect from a white person, being in a black country. Well, be careful. Be careful, because you’re liable to get stolen from. That sounds just exactly what a white person say, be careful if you go down Fillmore. Somebody’ll rape you. Dumb people. (Pause) Well, we all got shit-ass relatives, I guess that’s all there is to it.

Strong crowd reaction.

Jones: Yes, yes yes. Luann, I’m sorry.

Marceline: Excuse me, I— I just wanted to say I have had close confrontation with Beverly Oliver, and from the very beginning, I think she would’ve shot me if she had a gun. And there’s no comparison between— I know what you’re saying, we can’t take anything for granted, but there’s no comparison between Beverly Oliver and your mother, and her reactions. And I gave, um, Leona Collier as her contact, and also gave all the phone numbers, and she asked if she should make hotel reservations, and I said no, there’d be a place for her. So (Pause) (Sighs) Uh, I personally have a good feeling about your mother. I don’t have the insight— (fades off, then mike comes back on) I don’t have the insight that Dad has in any sense of the word—

Jones: (talks over her) Isn’t a matter of insight. It’s just a matter that anybody— the old saying, everybody’s got a price. Have you ever heard that old saying?

Crowd: Some assent

Jones: It’s a pretty— It musta been fairly well true, or somebody wouldn’t have been using it all these years. How many has heard that as long as you’ve lived? Everybody got their price. (Pause) And sometimes I wonder if that’s not true, about everybody except Father and a handful of others.

Crowd: (Scattered) Right.

Jones: That’s all I’m saying, just go into it with a clea— a wary eye, and look for anything. Then, if she’s friendly, you know, give her— we’ll give her hospitality, we’ll do our best to share what we have. (Pause) And hope to win her.

New male voice: But, um, she’s very discontent with uh, the way she’s living, I think, and she goes all out to help other people, you know, with her material gains that she get in the States and that, uh. She’s married to a alcoholic and— the whole trip is money, you know, which, I— before— before she started getting all this money and things and that, she was a different person, you know, but she never stopped giving to people. Which to me is a socialistic way of thinking, if not, you know—

Jones: (Muses) I wonder, if we shouldn’t consider, though, thinking about bringing her in here, for the one, one point. Two weeks is the only thing bothers the hell out of me.

Female off mike, unintelligible

Jones: Because, if she come back and settle some of this shit, and— even if she’s not inclined to be decent, if she wants her children so much, she won’t be as apt to go back and lie. And you can make it very damn clear, if you go back and lie, Mom, we’re through. If you don’t go back and tell how beautiful this place is, we’re finished. That way would be an incentive for her to go back and talk about the beauty of this place. (Pause) So you see what I’m saying? I think we ought to debate that.

Marceline: If they were to meet her there—

Jones: If we have a White Night, we can take (unintelligible phrase— her over?) to Camp One and put up a sudden tent and put you folk out in Camp One (Laughs).

Marceline: Go on a vacation to Camp One.

Jones: You can say, yes, you’re— you’re going fishing, we’ll take you to (Laughs).

Marceline: Um, if they were to— If, say, they and we’ll— I guess maybe Jim Junior could go into town and spend a week there, and then all of them bring her out here, I think she would be impressed with what’s happening in the medical. She’s worked in pediatrics.

Jones: Well, I don’t know about leaving her there at all, because they— fucking place can’t see at night nor day.

Marceline: Okay, well, maybe they should bring her, bring her on out here.

Jones: If you’re going to bring her— (Laughs)

Female in crowd: Dad, I’m just wondering, could I ask you this—

Jones: In an economy, or they’re in total economics, (stumbles over words) they’re trying to cut off the water, and if we have a— if we have it, the woman’s had nothing but a drunken husband, she might as well be here. I mean, if they come down— I think they’ll— we’ll plow through that, uh, I think a lot of communist furor that’ll be raised in the world to resist that shit. If they don’t— I don’t think they’ll let a Guyana be taken over by a brutal dictatorship, and I still say a thousand people are not easy to dispose of. I’m just being practical. I’m being practical. A thousand people represent a problem. And we could get somebody in here that would go back and give a good report, you could make her, uh, conditional, just say, Mom, now if we get contact, we will want you to talk to the press, we want you to go back there and talk to these people, and get on there and say something, and then you can come back and vacation with us again. After all, shit, it’s a free vacation. The grub’s on the house, we can do little extra things for her, so she won’t realize all the austerity we’ve had to go through now. We can fix a little extra things for somebody like that. It’s worth our time, don’t you think?

Crowd: Yeah.

Jones: And don’t give any complaint. Don’t give a negative shit to her. (Pause) What?

Female off mike, unintelligible

Jones: Well, if they— they get near her, we’ll kill ‘em.

Crowd: Right. (Applause)

Jones: They’re supposed to stay away from her. It’s a family, and uh, you’re right, Kay. Nobody better be talking to her, except the ones that’re assigned to talking to her. The rest say hi and bye.

Marceline: I think—

Jones: I think that’s good, Kay, we need to work on who, and the one, and the rest don’t get in— (stumbles over words) you mother fuckers better not get near her. Ju— Griping ‘bout everything. (Threatening tone) I mean, we will drop you in a shithole.

Crowd: Applause and cheers.

Marceline: I think the fact that, first of all, she was coming the first of March, she’d gotten all this negative input from the Olivers, that without any reluctance at all, I— when I said, it would be better if you came in April, she said, I’ll change my vacation. She could be a good P.R. person for us back there, if in fact she could come and see what’s happening in—in—

Jones: If she’s like her kids, she’s got a strong character, so I’d— Now as I said, if it comes to the end, it comes to the end, the woman will— we’ll be doing her a blessing, ‘cause she’ll be able to step out of this miserable sick existence and go over. The remote chances. We—Our li— Our chances of (laughs) coming to the end is about as remote as the sun falling, though. Looks to me like we always endure, but it makes us strong.

Scattered voices: Right.

Jones: Yes, Sue.

Sue: Uh, something that’s occurred to me this morning, is uh, is there any, uh— could we get anything out of a hostel how— not, not, you know, like hostile angry, but like, a, a place where people could stay in Kaituma. We—

Jones: (Unintelligible word) shit. (Unintelligible phrase) off Kaituma. I wouldn’t impress nobody by Kaituma at this stage.

Sue: I have— I’ve never seen Kaituma.

Jones: Well, then, you— that’s all right, she didn’t— that’s why you said it. (Laughs) I think we ought to work on a quick Kaituma, a quick house, though. If there’s any way we could— if we get some peace, we could build some truly, quickly, over in Camp One, if shit went to worse, then you got to decide to go down and go fishing. You could go fishing while the shit was going on, ‘cause we always set these ah, fuckers through. No, but the— when she hears the whistle, you can say there’s a fire or something (Laughs.)

Crowd: Laughter.

Jones: When there’s shooting, we’re out— we’re out shooting bear. (Laughs) (Tape cuts off briefly.) —that? (Pause) She be—

End of side 2

Tape originally posted April 1999