Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.
Conversation starts 15 minutes into tape
Garry Lambrev: It’s like, the sky is– is caving in. The bottom, the glass bottom, is just cracking and falling out, and I just seem to be going– all my dead ends seem to be meeting at one place, which is where I am and all I want is an out. And when I got up this m– I couldn’t sleep last night, although I took some medication (unintelligible). And uh, after three hours of sleep I just got up and just– yeah, I– I couldn’t stand being around the relatives. Nobody I– Nobody (unintelligible) incredible freak, and I had to get down here to settle my job, but– and I got on the bus, and I got into an even f– even more (unintelligible word) freakier place, which is a dead end, dead end place, and I started– I started contemplating seriously about how I could get out of this– just get out of this– and I know it’s the most selfish thing in the world, but it was just like, how to get out of this, (unintelligible) and (sighs) I’ve– I’ve been thinking of those sleeping pills, and I starting noticing all these mortuaries along the way, and I just got– it got worse and worse and worse and worse, and I couldn’t– I couldn’t rest, I couldn’t sleep, I couldn’t do anything in my mind, I started going on a death trip, just miles a minutes. And– (Pause) I’ve gone on them mildly before, and yesterday, I was in a really bleak suicidal place, and I went to– thoughts of suicide kept coming up again and again and again, but today, it was just desperate. Like the only thing that I could consider or conceive, because there’s no hope. And I think that’s blasphemy, (short laugh) but that’s emotionally how (unintelligible word)– how I was feeling.
Karen Layton: What is your feeling about the church now?
Garry: My feeling about the church is very positive, only it might– my fear is that I can’t make it, that it’s just as impossible staying out here, and then I’m caught in (unintelligible word) is part of the problem is caught in a dead end trap, where I couldn’t make it and I couldn’t break my habits. You know what I’m saying?
Karen: But the ch– the church has nothing to do with your feeling suicidal, though, does it?
Garry: (Pause) Well, except the– except for this being caught between two worlds. I don’t blame the church at all, no.
Karen: What do you think is the– uh, the main reason for you feeling that you want to kill yourself?
Garry: (Pause) Just being inadequate and just– that’s– just inadequate as a human being. My emotional relationships, it’s not being my mother’s (unintelligible word) my emotional relationships– my relation– relationship with my male lover (unintelligible word) me a little bit.
Garry: It’s just that it isn’t right. I don’t know that it’s actually disintegrating but maybe my– what I’m seeing is (unintelligible word), and my relationships with– with other people, and just feeling just like a mouse.
Karen: Is it– Do you feel, Garry, that you can’t get out of the emotional–
Garry: That’s it, Karen–
Garry: It’s just– I can’t get– (stumbles over words) It’s like a dead end cycle. I don’t know how to get myself out of it. I can break it for a moment, I can break it for maybe– for a day, and maybe that’s entirely enough to function, but to really function– and then something happens and I get back in it, my body slowly becomes spasmodic and then paralyzed, my mind becomes freakier and freakier and freakier, then I really become desperate and then I– I thought– I thought about, well, committing myself to a hospital, there’s a really good hospital nearby. But I’m much– There’s nothing they can do for me. They can’t even put me out of my (unintelligible word), they just sedate me so much that I can’t cause any problems, but I’ve seen people when they’ve been sedated (unintelligible word), and uh– like, the brain doesn’t cease functioning, but the mind (unintelligible) its ability, and the body loses its ability to communicate, and then socially no longer a problem. And uh, that’s all I can really see– Maybe I’m being a pessimist’s pessimist, but I’ve been through a lot of trips, and I’ve become awfully cynical. And that’s just about the trips of what I’m capable of doing in terms of the– and uh, (Pause) I don’t want to ask the impossible. I– (unintelligible) I– By the very nature of the fact that I called Liz [Forman] and talked to her, asking the impossible. And I hate– I don’t know, I just– I want to be able to break this myself. I want to be able to break this and get out of it for good, and establish a decent, functional pattern so I can function on a job, even begin to think of functioning in the church.
Karen: You don’t think, say, moving up here or something like that would– would be of– uh, any answer for you?
Garry: I think that would help a lot. Uh– (Pause) I’ve got to get– I have got sixty– I’ve got sixty days in which I have to– I have to stay here (unintelligible) my house, and I (unintelligible) tentatively I– I accepted this job. I don’t know whether I’m going to be able to follow through at this point. You know, I’m feeling better than I was three hours ago by a long shot. (Short laugh) I feel worlds– you know, worlds of– worlds away from where I was then, and uh– you, know, I attributed it to Father. (laughs)
Karen: I’m sure.
Garry: (unintelligible, faint) (Pause)
Karen: It’s funny, because about three hours ago, I– I called him, you know, and told him that uh, Liz– I talked to Liz, you know, and he told me to get a hold of you right away, which I did, but uh, the line was busy, and then I had to go into town and make another call, but it was just about three hours ago, I think.
Garry: It’s beautiful you didn’t get through to me because I hadn’t arrived here yet.
Karen: Oh yeah?
Garry: Everything was perfectly (unintelligible word, could be “settled” or “set up”).
Garry: There are no accidents.
Karen: Actually, I was worried that Jim was going to call me and asked if I’d gotten a hold of you or something, and I was worried about uh– that I hadn’t been as responsible, but I did have to go into town and, uh, you know, this was the last day I could go uh, (unintelligible under Garry)–
Garry: Karen, I really appreciate your call and Father’s call and concern. I really didn’t–
Karen: Well, he said– you know, anything that we could do to help, like if you wanted to move up here or, you know, whatever we do that uh– to tell you to just keep holding on to hope, because– and you thinking on him and looking at his example–
Garry: Oh, wow–
Karen: –because he’s– his life is– is such agony– agony and misery and– and uh, depression, but he goes on because he know he’s needed, you know, and with your mind, which is– (unintelligible) with your mind that uh, you can just do phenomenal things, you know, if you just can uh, hold it– get yourself together and get over this uh– your emotional uh, indulgences, really, or whatever, you know, uh– Not– I mean, not– I’m not saying that in a judgmental sense, you know–
Garry: No, that’s (unintelligible under Karen)
Karen: –because we all have them, you know. But uh, he wanted to just do anything we could, and then he had to go out of town too. (Sighs)
Garry: (unintelligible under Karen) especially considering the fact that he was– he was all– up all night (unintelligible word), you probably were too.
Garry: (unintelligible word) I really appreciate your concern all the more.
Karen: Oh, sure. I mean, that’s nothing. But uh– (Pause) I just– I just don’t know what we can–
Garry: I’m gonna– What I’m gonna see if I can pull through on this job this weekend and into next week, and (pause) depending on what’s happening then, if that doesn’t work out, I don’t know– I don’t– (Pause) (Exhales noisily) talk more about it next– next Wednesday when I come up.
Karen: There’s a lot of people you could stay with up here. I know uh, Bonnie and Don [Beck] are going to be happy to have you. I don’t know–
Garry: Thank them for the– for the welcome.
Garry: Please thank them for me.
Karen: Uh, she mentioned that to me, you know– But I mean there’s a lot of people. I don’t know how you feel about staying there. There’s a lot of people you could stay with. That wouldn’t be any problem at all. Do you– Do you think that you could get along– Is it that the sexual aspect of it or is it hangs you up, I mean, you feel that you can’t get by without it or you– I mean, I don’t–
Garry: I think that’s part of it, in all honesty. I think that’s part of it. (Pause) And how big a part–
Karen: And it’s just leading you to destruction, that’s–
Garry: Yeah. Uh, I don’t think it’s– I don’t– I know it’s not the whole thing. (Pause) Uh– (Pause) Thank Bonnie and Don for their invitation, and tell them that I may– I’ll keep in contact with them about it.
Garry: Uh, it’s funny ‘cause I’d even thought of them specifically. (Short laugh) (unintelligible under Karen)
Karen: Oh, you had?
Garry: Yeah. That way it could flash through my mind. Uh– (pause) I don’t know what I’m going to try– What I’m going to try to do are two things. One is to begin to come off these drugs, and two, to see if I can hold down this job. Uh– Right now, I just don’t know what– exactly where I stand with myself, but I’m capable of coming through onto me, and (short laugh) if I need to, uh– I really appreciate having a place that I can come and stay. Uh– I don’t know how– what sort of a guest I’ll be (unintelligible word) that’s very– that’s very freaked out.
Karen: Well, that’s okay. We’ll– we’ll tell you if you’re doing something wrong. (laughs)
Karen: You know us.
Garry: Yeah. (Pause) Karen?
Garry: Listen, thanks for the call. Is there a number at which I can reach you?
Karen: Yeah. 485-
Garry: Hold on (unintelligible word). Let me get– get a pencil here. (Pause) 485-
Karen: Umm-hmm [Yes].
Garry: Okay. Did you get my note, by the way?
Karen: Uh, yeah, I did, I got it today, and I (laughs)– I was really shocked to get it, I– it– you didn’t have to do that, Garry, that was nothing.
Garry: Oh, I felt– I felt so ridiculous, I thought, jeez, what an incredible– I was just completely (unintelligible word) so taken by surprise when I saw you.
Karen: (Laughs) That was nothing. I did look bad that day. That was all right. (Laughs)
Garry: (laughs) Anyway. I didn’t want you to feel terrible about that.
Karen: No, I didn’t. It was okay.
Karen: Oh yeah, I didn’t feel bad about it. (Laughs)
Garry: Listen, kiddo, thanks a million for the call.
Karen: Okay, well, we’re thinking about you, Garry, and– and please let us know or let Jim know if we can do anything about (unintelligible under Garry)
Garry: I sure will, uh–
Karen: –at all, because he does love you, and he really does.
Garry: I really believe that, I really know that. Uh– (unintelligible word under Karen)
Karen: He felt bad when I– when I told him that uh– what Liz said, he felt really bad and– you know, that you were, you know, feeling so down and out, and uh– He doesn’t want you to go through this, he really doesn’t. He wants to (unintelligible word) pain.
Garry: Well, the physical things have begun to go away as of this morning.
Karen: Well, all pain, you know. And if you could get really involved in this, he– you– you’d– you wouldn’t have to suffer like you’re going– like you’re putting yourself through right now, you know. Because you could be so productive, Garry, and so– you’re so talented, you could be really productive and really uh, do a lot to help others, you know, and get out of your own– your own–
Garry: Get out of my own shit. Yeah.
Karen: –self, you know. I mean, it’s really fulfilling working for the cause, you know.
Garry: I hate being– I hate being so caught– There’s something that was said– was said last night about just being so caught up in your own self, that it’s sheer hell, and only when you start (unintelligible word), you start living, you start being concerned about others, uh, do you get out of that. And work– it works for other reason than (unintelligible word) you’re forced to get out of yourself. And uh–
Karen: If you’re gonna die, you might as well die for the cause. You know? I mean, you might as well die a noble death than die a– a coward’s death, really.
Karen: Because uh– hell, if you’re gonna– if you’re gonna– if you hate yourself that you’re going to go into that much oblivion, you might as well just stay alive for a while and hate yourself and do something to– to make it a better world for other people, you know.
Garry: The other thing is– Like being, when you get in that space, to even conceive of anything else but just living in that space, getting out of it. (unintelligible word) In fact, from here to the next step is the hardest.
Karen: I know. I know, but you know too much, Garry. You really do. You know too much to– to take that way out.
Garry: (unintelligible under Karen) Oh well, I don’t want to. I really don’t.
Karen: And just think, you’d have to– to regress all that way back and start it all over again.
Karen: And go through the same shit again. It’s just not worth it. If we can just hold on for a few more years, you know, and then everybody graduates. You know about that. Just graduate and– and get out of this goddamn mess. ‘Cause if you come back– if you do it, and you come back, karmatically, and Jim won’t be here– he won’t be here to help, you know. It’ll be a horrible place. Just think of living through this hell again–
Garry: I thought of that, Karen–
Karen: –after a nuclear war, and Jim wouldn’t be here. (Pause) Knowing that uh, uh, you know, that you’d come this far in every lifetime.
Garry: Umm-hmm. I’m having real tr– I’m having real problem to just getting with this relationship that (unintelligible) for years, that (unintelligible) really became a relationship once again after I left the church, like almost immediately after I left the church. And (sighs) I’ve talked to Liz a little bit about it, and (pause) I’d like to be able to talk some other people. If I don’t know what to– I’m in an incredibly emotional bind (unintelligible word)
Karen: Well, ca– can you come this weekend? Why don’t you talk to us this weekend about it? Why don’t you try to go on the trip this weekend?
Garry: I’ve got– I’ve got to work, but if I can’t come through on that, I will (unintelligible word, sounds like “melt”)
Karen: If you don’t go to work, you might as well go on a trip.
Garry: I sure will.
Karen: And– and uh, we’d be happy to spend some time talking with you about it.
Garry: Thanks, Karen.
Garry: Well, let me find– I’ll find out tomorrow, can I– would I– how– how would I go to the trip. Does somebody come to the– up (unintelligible word) San Francisco?
Karen: Oh, yeah, just come. Yeah. Just come to the meeting in San Francisco.
Garry: Okay. Okay. Either that or else sometime– or else on Wednesday next week.
Karen: Yeah, sure.
Garry: Okay? (Pause)
Karen: Or come up now, I mean, it– you know, if you’re not gonna– if you’re feeling you’re not gonna make it in the job anyway, you might as well just come on up now. (Pause)
Garry: Well, I’ll know– I’ll know between now and– between now and Friday night.
Karen: Right, well, if you get too depressed, Garry, g– get on a bus and get up here.
Garry: I’ll do that (unintelligible word under Karen)
Karen: And call somebody and we’ll have somebody pick you up or something, but don’t stay there and uh, get into this thing again. It’s just not worth it.
Garry: Thanks. Thanks a million. I’ll take you up on that suggestion. I really mean–
Karen: Okay, well, thank Jim, because that’s– just thank Jim and I– Just thinking on him, okay?
Garry: I will.
Karen: Just thinking on him and all his agony and how he keeps pushing himself, you know? Because you are needed, and he needs you. He needs you to– to help him carry on this mess, you know.
Garry: It’s the only thing I– It’s the only thing I’ve ever met in my life that I’ve believed in. In my entire life.
Karen: I know. It is the only thing. It is the only thing.
Garry: So that’s good (unintelligible word under Karen)–
Karen: And he is the only real thing in the world, the only non-manipulative, non-self-serving– (short laugh)
Karen: You know, totally pure. The only one. (Pause)
Garry: Every time I’ve gone out, I’ve come back to the same thing. (unintelligible word under Karen)
Karen: I know.
Garry: Only more intensely each time. It’s just–
Karen: I know.
Garry: This seems so obvious. But how to get myself in the state of mi– state of mind and body where I can (Pause) do it (exhale). The work. (Pause) Listen, I’m not going to hang you up any more on this phone, this– Thanks so much for calling.
Karen: Okay. We’ll see you, Garry.
Garry: Okay. Bye-bye.
End of tape
Tape originally posted May 2013