Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.
Part 1: Phone call from Jim Jones and Eugene Chaikin to police
(Phone dialed, rings)
Unidentified police officer: (Unintelligible name) Station. (Unintelligible name) Can I help you?
Chaikin: Uh, yes, my name is Gene Chaikin. I’m an attorney for the Peoples Temple at Hoover and Alvarado. I wonder if I might speak with the watch officer in charge, please.
Police officer: Okay, hold on a second. (Pause)
Jones: (on extension) (Unintelligible) ask for the captain or something.
Roach: Yeah, Sergeant Roach.
Chaikin: Yes, Sergeant Roach, are you the uh, watch officer in charge-
Chaikin: -of the (Unintelligible name) station. Uh, yes, uh. I’m uh, Eugene Chaikin, I’m an attorney for the Peoples Temple. We have a church, as you know, on Hoover and Alvarado Street.
Chaikin: I’m calling particularly at uh, Reverend Jones’ request to uh, uh, to make a report. We’ve had some incidents there that uh, we don’t understand at all, and are uh, highly displeasing to us. I’d like to indicate what’s happening-
Chaikin: -if I may for a minute. Uh. We have a good report that Monday between 2:30 and 3 in the afternoon, two people uh, drove up in a uh, gray van, and it was a 67 or a 68 Econoline with mag wheels, and apparently an extra long body.
Chaikin: I don’t have an exact license number. The first three numbers were 262, and they say there was an “L” in it, uh. Now, uh, they apparently asked a couple of our security guards there if they wanted to buy-
Jones: To correct. Uh, they asked a, a minister, associate minister and uh, one of them um, construction uh, supervisors who’s building the senior citizen residence. They hav- I just wanted to make that correction.
Chaikin: Umm-hmm. Uh, this uh- Wanted to sell them some silverware, 98 pieces or 90 pieces of something for thirty-five dollars. And the implication was that the uh, the merchandise was stolen. And of course, our people weren’t interested in anything like that, and told them so.
Roach: What was the uh, property they were selling?
Chaikin: 90 piece silverware set.
Roach: Oh, okay, right.
Chaikin: For $35.
Chaikin: And uh, subsequently uh, uh, yesterday, we have another report, although we haven’t confirmed it as tightly as that one, that somebody else came up in a uh, in a silver automobile and uh, uh, asked one of our associate ministers there if we were- he said, I hear uh, uh, you buy hot stuff. Do you want some? The man told him, of course, that he didn’t, and didn’t know what he was talking about.
Jones: We were advised by the different attorneys in our church that we should contact you immediately. (Clears throat) We uh, had- I don’t know whether you may have been informed by the pastors there. We just assisted a- a- a California Highway patrolman family, Turner, who had been slain mercilessly by some uh, maniacal black person. Being that we have black members, we- we wanted to show the sentiment of how much we support law enforcement and- and uh, how in- infuriated and incensed we were by this senseless act, and we sent five hundred dollars to the family. Now, normally we have some harassment after- but someone must be putting out something pretty ugly, some rumor, to cause people to drive by. In all of our history, we’ve never had a member or a church that’s ever been presented with uh, you know, (stumbles over words) such a- a blatant suggestion to do something dishonest. And uh, we thought behind it might be some militant (clear throat) element, and we uh, also wanted to notify you so that uh, any case there- there- that this is a legitimate thing, that they- they indeed (stumbles over words)- they said they had stolen goods uh, the second time. I don’t know if they mentioned that the first time, did they, uh, uh, (unintelligible under Chaikin)-
Chaikin: No, they just, no-
Jones: They just mentioned 90 pieces of silver– silverware for $35. I thought he said 45. But anyway, the minister says it was ridiculously low price, and when declined, they- they- they wouldn’t uh, they didn’t get any further conversation, they just went away. But the second one, uh, the minister has gone out of state to uh, one of our denominational meetings, uh, so I don’t- we can’t get any further information other than that, other than one of the ladies said that he- he was approached this afternoon again in- in- in the same fashion, saying we understand uh, or I understand – I don’t know whether there was one or two individuals- Yesterday, it was a black-haired and a black-haired woman- a black-haired man, a black-haired woman in their thirties, either Italian, they thought, or Greek. Uh, but we have very poor description on today. But we felt we should uh, report it, if this 262 L we hope is sufficient, that maybe you can uh, do some check-up, and we told our people to immediately notify you, if there are- or if you had any other suggestion as to who we would notify, you would tell- you could call our local church there and tell them what they should do when these people come by, whether they should try to hold them there, or what your suggestion might be.
Roach: Let me give you a number and- and a name of a person that would be- He’s in charge of the investigators that work that area (unintelligible under Jones interruption) these people.
Jones: All right.
Roach: And uh, that way- uh, I’ll give you his name and number.
Jones: That’s fine.
Roach: It’s Investigator Voss. V-O-S-S.
Jones: V? As in victory?
Roach: Uh, yes. O-S-S.
Jones: O- and sa- S in Sam.
Roach: Right. And it’s 485- 4073.
Roach: Uh, he stays in the office back there, he’s here all day, at 8:30 or so in the morning till 4:30. If any of this occurred or when they have other information during the day, uh, he has the area that- from uh-
Jones: They should call-
Roach: Pico South down there, right, they should call and ask for this-
Jones: All right, well, we’ll- uh, we’ll relay that back. We’re calling long distance from our headquarters, we’re in the Disciples of Christ denomination, it’s two million strong uh, but uh, being that our church takes more of a- a long enforcement stand than most, and then we just got (stumbles over words) coverage for all over the state uh, and uh, throughout the nation today, in many parts of the nation on another support of a- a law enforcement measure here that got praise from the district attorney and the sheriff’s department and chief of police, so we- we just wondered if um, something mu- something must be askew, that we, in all of our history have never had anyone come by, and then have two people in- within 24 hours come by trying to sell us something. It uh- It sounds to us like some militant organization or something si- uh, circulating some uh, rumor that we receive uh, uh, things that are uh- What was it, what’d he call them, what’d he call the-
Chaikin: Um, he said uh, hot-
Jones: Hot, uh, hot goods. Uh, It sounds- It sounded crazy that anyone would come by a church with that kind of approach. So we- we wanted to immediately notify you. If you would take record of this, and we’ll tell our church members then to call that uh, that gentleman.
Roach: I’ll leave- I’ll leave a note for uh, for Voss back there so he will be aware of your call, and I’ll let him know that-
Jones: To be on the lookout for that van. Uh, they said they saw the van- I thought that one of the members said that they saw the van- we had an earlier call, I didn’t receive it, uh, but an earlier call that uh, that van was also sighted in that area again today. (Pause)
Jones: So- what- Whatever they’re uh, offering, you might be able to apprehend them that way, if you were on the lookout for them.
Roach: 67 to 8 Ford, and it’s a long, uh, body-
Chaikin: Yeah, and it’s uh, it’s gray. It’s a uh, primer gray. Dull primer gray. Max uh, max whe- mag wheels on it, extra long body. Econovan.
Roach: Did- Is there an indication of the uh, people in the van, whether they were white or-
Jones: They were white. Uh, ei- either Greek or I- Italian. And one of the gentlemen that saw them is Greek. So it c- he would make a- I think he would be pretty uh, accurate in his description. Uh, Mr. Kutulas saw them. He was one of the gentlemen. He’s a su- a construction supervisor and one of the board members there, uh, Danny Kutulas, and he’s Greek himself, he said they were either Greek or Italian. Both- a male and a female- he estimated in their thirties, uh, their hair was black, could’ve been dyed though. He wasn’t sure.
Roach: I see.
Jones: Uh, very long hair. The man was uh, hippish-
Jones: And- oh yes, that’s right.
Chaikin: Heavy dark mustache.
Jones: Heavy dark mustache.
Roach: Okay, I’ll leave all this for the uh, people, I’ll talk to the uh, black and white patrol units that are working there. They’re- These guys are probably just burglars, and they’re just trying to find a place to- to unload that stuff.
Jones: Well, we thought the coincidence- We have bizarre things happen every time we do something for law enforcement. A threatening phone call, or they’ll or- order something to be delivered to our church that we don’t know anything about, or they’ll call up and tell us someone is dead that isn’t dead and try to shock whoever uh, is on the line, so there’s always something, it seems to correlate when we come out- and we came out with a six thousand dollar support of a- a- a pilot project in San Francisco, uh, th- that helps senior citizens with uh, escort service of- of security personnel, uh, so they’ll- and they- they almost reduced muggings to- to nil in the Tenderloin, and we get- every time, we get threats from militants and uh, uh, that sort. It’s usually from militant element. So we just thought there might’ve been some connection, being that it- it happened right on top of it, and we’d never heard in all of our history anyone ever coming to our church with uh, with such an approach. It sounded so strange.
Chaikin: Never happened.
Jones: Well, thank you for your courtesy and-
Roach: Okay- (unintelligible as three men talk)
Chaikin: Sergeant, if you-
Roach: I’ll be sure that this note with this information gets back there into our people, and just have them call this other number and-
Jones: Uh, Detective Voss.
Jones: All right. And thank you.
Chaikin: And uh, I thought I’d just write a letter confirming this. I wonder, if you can give me an address of someone to write to.
Roach: Yes. That’s uh- (Pause) What would you like- You mean uh, our conversation tonight?
Chaikin: Yes, and invent- the event any more of this comes through, we might want to-
Roach: Okay, it can either go to uh, to Voss or to uh, myself. R- Roach, Sergeant Roach. R-O-A-C-H.
Jones: By the way, who uh, replaced uh, Captain Martricano (phonetic), he was a good friend, uh, what-
Roach: That was uh, Captain Ginden.
Jones: Captain Ginden? G-I-N-D-E-N?
Roach: D-E-N. Right.
Jones: Uh, did- did Captain Martricano retire due to ill health? He seemed awfully young.
Roach: Uh- (sighs)
Jones: Well, you don’t know perhaps.
Roach: Well, no, he- It was combination of both, uh, he- he wasn’t actually sick when he left as such, but he had his, oh, I think 28 in-
Jones: Oh, yes.
Roach: And uh-
Jones: I remember him saying he did.
Roach: Yeah, he just wanted to get uh, a little more time with the family and all- He did have a- uh- (Pause) You know, he had that surgery in the past-
(Jones and Chaikin talk over each other)
Jones: Oh, I’m sor- Well, I’m sorry. If he’s uh- Give him the regards of our Peoples Temple, if you uh, if you’re ever talking to him.
Roach: I sure will.
Jones: He’s an awfully good man. Well, thank you for your- your time.
Roach: All right, thank you much.
Chaikin: Thank you. Um, Good evening.
Part 2: Brief phone call
Woman: All right.
Man: And- and you relate this to him, and see what will be his opinion.
Woman: All right. Thank you so much.
Man: All right.
Woman: Mmm- bye.
Part 3: Attempted hone call
Busy signal. Dial tone. Number dialed. Busy signal. Dial tone. Number dialed. Busy signal. Dial tone. Number dialed. Busy signal. Hang-up.
Part 4: Phone call
Mrs. Gambill: One of the churches yesterday, um- She has attended the uh, uh, Unification Church on Olive a few times, and uh, the Reverend Sun Myat [Myung] Moon is the leader of that, I guess, so-
Gambill: But she disagreed with some of their teachings yesterday, and she came home all black and blue and uh, I asked her what happened, she said they had beaten her with a rubber hose, and of course-
(Child calls out)
Man: (Off phone) Janet? (Back to caller) Excuse me just a minute.
Man: (Off phone) Will you come and get the baby? (Pause) (Back to caller) All right.
Gambill: Okay. Uh, that they had beaten her with a rubber hose and uh, of course, we uh, are going to take legal action, but I was wondering if uh, uh, some of the ministers had any idea of what could be done about looking into something like that, uh, as far as the ministers were concerned.
Man: Well, the only thing that I would uh, suggest you uh- it should be looked into. I- I don’t know of no uh, religion that uh, would beat somebody with a rubber hose (unintelligible word under interruption) part of God.
Gambill: All right. (Stumbles over words) That’s right. I think it’s terrible. And that why I thought maybe the ministers would be concerned about it, you know.
Gambill: Uh, because, uh, it reflects on all the churches, you know, if that’s (unintelligible under Jones) one church, then it reflects on all the churches.
Man: Right. Right. Well, see, a lot of times, when they get into these cult movements, uh, they run across a lot of these type of problems. They think that they got to do some type of uh, uh, strange stuff in order to uh, initiate a person in, but see, all that’s contrary to the word of God.
Man: And uh, so the only thing that I would uh, do- Does she have any witnesses, uh, stating that uh, it happened there or-
Gambill: Uh, well, of course, they would all be members, and I don’t know, you know, who would uh, you know, if they would even come forth. I- I will have to look a little further into that. But uh, you know how teenagers are, they think that they-
Man: Was she the only one that was involved in- in this type of a ritual?
Gambill: At- at this time, I have heard it’s happened before, you know.
Man: Umm-hmm. I mem- I read something about him.
Man: And uh, uh, you know, I didn’t, you know, go along with the thing that I read about him (unintelligible under interruption)-
Man: -but I read it- They had a big article in the paper sometime ago concerning that he was going to be down in Anaheim at one time.
Man: And uh- So I- I- I really don’t know too much about him as an individual, but uh, you know, but things like that, it’s not right, and uh, a lot of times they do take advantage of young people and uh, get ’em into something like that-
Man: But uh, if they would- uh, if they beat her like that, then that’s uh- (Pause) Uh, that’s not right, and I think it should be uh, you know, looked into-
Man: And- And I’ll mention it around to some of the uh, ministers that I know.
Gambill: Well, I’d certainly appreciate- I- I just think it reflects on all the churches, and then it just- the teenagers think, you know, that if they have an experience like that, that maybe there’s nothing to the churches at all, you understand.
Man: Well, now what does she want to do now? She wants to get away from him, or-
Gambill: Yes. Well, she- We will take legal action on it, but I just uh, uh, you know, I thought, well, maybe if uh, the ministers knew about it, they would uh, save some other children from such a fate, you see.
Man: Right, well, what I’ll- Uh, we’ll have to mention it in the Council of Churches, uh, uh, concerning him.
Gambill: Right, well, I think that would be a great help to our young people, if you would do that.
Man: Right. And then we have a Minister’s Alliance which is supposed to meet today, but it’s a holiday, so we’ll meet next Monday.
Man: And I’ll bring it up there.
Gambill: Well, I- I thank you so much. It would make me feet better as a mother that- to know that other children would be safe from such a thing.
Man: Right. (unintelligible under woman’s voice) That’s- that’s terrible. I don’t agree with anything like that. Anytime you lay hands on children in this type of thing, then that’s uh, uh, contrary. Did- Did she say how it- it- it happened, uh, whether they was trying to get her to do something, and she-
Gambill: Well, she said she disagreed with their teachings, and then they just would not tolerate that whatsoever, you know, and uh-
Man: Umm-hmm. All right. I see. Well, the only thing that I can uh, tell you is to do what you’re doing, and I would mention it around and uh, uh, see what we can do as a- as a ministerial group to try to stop something. But see, he’s not a- an established minister in this particular area. I think he’s one of those travelling ministers who goes around from place to place.
Gambill: I see. Uhh-huh.
Man: And he comes into an area for a certain length of time, and then he leaves.
Man: And uh, uh, so, uh, he’s- he’s not established here, so to really get him, I think, that uh, the only way that uh, they gonna be able to do anything is to take legal action, see. We can talk about it, but I don’t really think there’s nothing too much that we can do, but uh, we could uh, uh, you know, take a stand against it, but see, by that time, he may be gone, he may be in some other part of the country (unintelligible word under interruption)
Gambill: Umm-hmm. Well, we’ll- we’ll take care of the legal action, if I- but that’s what I thought, if you took a stand against such things, that uh-
Man: Right. Right. Right.
Gambill: -you know, other chi- uh, children wouldn’t be misled, like, of course, naturally, she’s not going to be a part of it anymore, but uh, that was a hard way to learn, you understand.
Man: Very- Very true. So anyway, it’s nice talking to you, and I will bring it up in our meeting, and uh, mention it. That’s- that’s Mis- Reverend Moon, wasn’t it?
Gambill: That’s right. Umm-hmm.
Man: Right. Yeah, I’ve heard of him, but I don’t know too much about him, but I’ve heard of him.
Gambill: I don’t either, but just uh, from this incidence- Okay, thank you so much.
Man: All right then.
Gambill: Mmm-hmm. Bye.
Part 5: Phone call
Caller: All right, what the procedure is to join. I was approached by someone on the streets not too long ago-
Caller: -and uh, I was wondering what do you do, or how do you find out more about the organization?
Sonya: Oh, yeah. (Laughs) He’s so- We have study centers all over Los Angeles, and uh, one here, where you just called in downtown, 635 Olive Street, and they’re given our center introduction lectures in order to inform you about our thoughts, our ideas, and the best would be [to] find out is just to come and to hear one of these introduction lectures. And that’s usually for 45 minutes, and they can discuss afterwards a little bit. Yeah, and then you find out most about it.
Caller: Uhh-huh. Uh- do you- do you um, allow people to stay with you?
Sonya: Well, we do this. We have a- a study center in the mountains, but that would mean for three days. Yeah?
Sonya: That would be possible, yeah.
Caller: Well, what I’m saying is, that I was thinking of- of joining, I went to some of your meetings in um-
Sonya: Oh, you did already?
Caller: In- in- Yes, I’ve been to your meeting when he was- Sun Myung Moon was down here.
Caller: And then I was also at a meeting in New York.
Sonya: Oh, wonderful.
Caller: And I’m- was thinking that I’d like to join up, and I was wondering- I’m just visiting out here in Los Angeles, and I saw one of your people out on the street, and um-
Caller: I was wondering if I wanted to stay with the group, how- what- what- how- what procedure would I have to go through?
Sonya: First come here to our center, yeah? And uh, we can talk to you. And you know our mi- our camp where we study, and there you also could stay with us. It’s in the San Bernardino mountains.
Sonya: And we have busses every night going out there. So just come here, and we can talk, yeah?
Sonya: Okay? Do you have the address?
Caller: Oh, yes, Olive Street.
Sonya: Mmm-hmm. 635.
Caller: All right. Thank you.
Sonya: Okay, my name is Sonya, so I’m at the desk, so you will see me.
Caller: Okay. Bye-bye.
Sonya: Okay. Bye-bye.
Male: That’s it.
Gambill: I’ll- I’ll leave a message. Uh- This is Mrs. Gambill calling.
Receptionist: Mrs. Gambill?
Gambill: And uh, he doesn’t know me, but I have been referred to him uh, by another minister uh- The problem that uh, I’ve encountered is that uh, my daughter had attended this uh, Unification Church on Olive a few times, you know, and uh, the Reverend Sun Myat Moon uh, is the leader of that, I guess, uh- Well, anyway, she uh, disagreed with some of their teachings yesterday, and uh, she came home, she’s all black and blue, and I asked her what had happened, and they had beaten her with the rubber hose severely.
Receptionist: (Incredulous) They had beaten her with a hose?
Receptionist: At the church?
Gambill: That’s right. And uh- Naturally I was appalled by the whole thing, and uh- uh, so I was just calling uh, the good reverend to see if he had any suggestions as to what we could do. ‘Course, we would take uh, legal action, but I just wondered if he thought uh, as a minister, or other ministers could do something about this atrocious uh, behavior that’s going on.
Receptionist: Well, for heaven’s sakes, now that is something I’ve never heard of.
Gambill: Well, I- I had never heard of such a thing either, and I think it’s disastrous, uh, that, a uh, uh, so-called church would uh, would uh, do anything like this-
Receptionist: Well, what kind of thing- Like what do they teach? You say Unification Church?
Gambill: Yeah. I- I don’t know too much about their teachings, it’s just a- you know, I have a teenage daughter, and you know they are, they think they want to look into different-
Receptionist: Yeah. Uhh-huh. Oh.
Gambill: -things, and uh, uh, but uh, whatever it was uh, she disagreed with their teaching, and they- they just did not tolerate it whatsoever, and- and uh, she’d been going for some time, and she- you know, they (unintelligible word) just beat her, and uh-
Receptionist: That’s sounds like some kind of weird outside sect or something. That don’t sound like a normal church. My goodness-
Gambill: Well, it certainly doesn’t sound like the proper behavior for a church.
Receptionist: No, it doesn’t, and it definitely needs to be looked into.
Gambill: Oh, I think it needs to be looked into, and I knew the- I knew the good reverend would uh, be interested in this, since he- I understand he has some motivation of his own, but- Well, you tell him we are uh, sa- taking legal action, but just uh, wondered if he uh, uh, as a concerned- (Pause)
Gambill: -con- concerned person that he is would look into this and do something about it.
Receptionist: Yeah. Well, I’ll certainly speak to him about it. You say it’s on Olive.
Receptionist: Near what? Do you have an exact address?
Gambill: Uh, let’s see here. It’s uh- well, I do, let’s see if I can find it- It’s uh, six uh, thirty five Olive.
Receptionist: Uh-huh. Do you know the pastor’s name there?
Gambill: Uh, I’m not familiar with the pastor’s name there.
Gambill: Uh, no, I’m not that- You know, I wasn’t involved in it, I just- she just uh-
Receptionist: Yeah. And that (unintelligible word) happened yesterday.
Gambill: (Stumbles over words) Yes. There’s- there’s sort of a- I think they are sort of a cult-type uh, thing, you know, uh-
Receptionist: Yeah. Uh-huh. How old is she? You daughter. I mean, is she in- a teenager or what?
Gambill: Yes, she’s a teenager-
Receptionist: She’s a teenager-
Gambill: But- And I understand they worship uh, Sun Myat Moon or something, but uh- ‘Course naturally, my daughter won’t be attending after this.
Receptionist: Oh. Well, I should think not.
Gambill: But uh-
Receptionist: Mmm. Yeah, well, I’ll certainly talk to him about it, but it sounds more like a cult to me than a church.
Gambill: Yeah, I think it is uh, some sort of a cult, the ma- the man says he’s Jesus Christ or something, I guess.
Gambill: But that- but that’s about- you know, that’s all I know about it. That’s just what I’ve heard, but-
Receptionist: Um, yeah-
Gambill: So naturally-
Receptionist: Well, see, I- I’m glad you called, really, because these things really need to be looked into, too, because they’re not the same as churches.
Gambill: That’d be right.
Receptionist: These cults. These are altogether different. And I- I feel like they needed a- a different classification. So this is really something they need to work on.
Gambill: Well, and it- you know, and it makes uh- something like that comes along and makes all the other churches look bad, you see.
Receptionist: Look bad, yeah. Makes ’em look bad.
Gambill: And I think it’s up to the ministers to- to do something about this.
Receptionist: Uh-huh. Do something about it.
Gambill: That’s right.
Receptionist: I think you’re right, too. Now listen, if he wanted to call you, where can he reach you?
Gambill: Well, I’m just in the process of- of moving and-
Gambill: I- I’ll call you back when I get my phone in, okay?
Receptionist: Oh. Okay-
Gambill: We’re- we’re naturally moving because of this, but uh, uh, we’ll uh, call you back when we get our phone in, okay?
Receptionist: Yeah. Well, all right, then, because if he looks into this, you know, he won’t have any contact with the ones, you know (unintelligible under interruption) call him, and so he should have your number.
Gambill: Right. Well, we’ll certainly- we’ll get in contact with him again.
Receptionist: Yeah. All right. All right.
Gambill: Thank you so much, dear.
Receptionist: Thank you for calling. Uh-huh.
Gambill: Uh, Reverend Branch?
Gambill: Uh, this is Mrs. Gambill calling, uh, and I know you don’t know me, but I’m calling in regards uh, to what happened to my daughter yesterday at uh, a church. Uh, she attended the Unification Church on Olive? And uh, I believe the leader of that is Reverend Sun Myat Moon. Um, but she disagreed with some of their teachings, and uh, she came home all black and blue, and they had severely beaten her with the rubber hose. And I don’t know too much about the church, she was just a teenager, and had decided to attend, and see what it was, uh, but uh- we’re going to take legal action, of course, but I was wondering uh, if you as a minister had any advice or knew of anything-
Branch: Well, the first, I think you should uh, uh, uh, uh- if you have an attorney, this is a case that really involves an attorney. I think that would be the first thing you would do, and then of course, you notify- you have to notify the police.
Gambill: Right. Definitely.
Branch: Did you notify the police?
Gambill: Yes. Uh-huh.
Branch: Well, what did they say?
Gambill: Well, uh- Of course, we have been advised to get an attorney, and we’ve done that. But I- I was just, uh, you know, as a mother, wondering if ministers could look into it, and uh-
Branch: Well, we would, when- after you- it becomes a le- a, a known legal case.
Gambill: I see. Uh-huh.
Branch: It’d have to be- You have to- I mean, you understand what I’m trying to say from the legal standpoint. We want to find out what’s with what. We just wouldn’t jump up and go running out there no- We wouldn’t want- In another word, let me say this: I wouldn’t want someone to come to my church and then get in in an- a- in an altercation with someone at the church-
Gambill: Um-hmm. Um-hmm.
Branch: -and get beat up. And then have someone bring charges against me.
Gambill: I see. Yeah. I understand that.
Branch: I would want to be first be shown. Now if this is true, we know about this uh, religious movement, and- but if there is some uh, brutal force been (unintelligible word)- as a group of minister, I’m sure we’ll go all out for it, to protect uh, all (unintelligible word) and go to the very limits of our ability to see that justice is done. Yeah.
Gambill: Umm-hmm. Umm-hmm.
Branch: But at the same time, it must be some proof and verification, not just on hearsay. Now as it is of now, as far as I could say, I want you to put yourself in my position, as I see it, it’s hearsay. Until I can see some documented proof that uh, there’d been an investigation and uh, that this- it- you know, this has happened.
Gambill: Right. Uh-huh.
Branch: Yeah. Or we’ll find out exactly what- what has happened, you know.
Gambill: Umm-hmm. Right. Right.
Gambill: Of course, we’re in the process of doing that now, but uh-
Branch: Good. What- Whatever help we can give after you’ve found out that there’s definitely been some miscarriage of uh, of uh, some injustice had been done, we’ll be behind you 100%.
Gambill: All right. Thank you so much.
Branch: Okay, dear.
Branch: And let me- follow me up on that, I want to know about it.
Gambill: Certainly will.
Branch: All right.
Gambill: Thank you.
Gambill: I beg your pardon.
Man: Well, hold on.
Gambill: Hello, this is uh, Mrs. Gambill calling, uh, uh, I was calling in- in reference to something that happened to my daughter yesterday at one of the churches uh, the Unification Church on Olive, uh, Rev. Sun Myat Moon is the leader, I understand. Uh, she had attended a few services and uh- just to see what it was all about. She disagreed with some of their teachings yesterday, and they beat her severely with a rubber hose, so she’s black and blue all over. Of course, we’ve reported this, but I was just wondering, as a parent, what, uh, you know, if the ministers thought there was anything they could look into or do about this kind of behavior in a church, so-called church.
Reverend: This is the Unification Church?
Reverend: And you saw unusual marks on her?
Gambill: Yes, right, she’s black and blue all over. Of course, we’re reported this, you know to-
Reverend: If- to the police department.
Gambill: -and getting an attorney, but I just wondered, you know, as a parent, uh, what could be done to stop other children from uh, this kind of, you know, looking into something and- and then finding this is what it’s all about to-
Reverend: Yes. Did you uh, uh, (stumbles over words) Did the girl tell the story? I mean, she tell you what happened?
Gambill: Uh, wh- what she said was that, you know, they were having a discussion, and she disagreed uh, quite intently with uh, some of the things they were teaching, you know-
Gambill: And they just did not tolerate it whatever, they got very angry and- and beat her, uh, and uh, I’m just wondering, you know, what uh, as ministers, could be done, uh-
Reverend: Yes, well, I- I would think that it should be- Now, how did you contact my church? I mean, how- me?
Gambill: Well, we were- we were just calling, uh- you know, I was-
Reverend: You’re calling the churches.
Gambill: Yeah, I was just calling the churches, you know. Uh, just wondering-
Reverend: Good idea. Yeah. I uh- (Pause) Yeah, uh, what kind of a response have you had? When did this happen, (unintelligible word)?
Gambill: Uh, this happened yesterday-
Gambill: Yes, at, at- uh, most of the ministers are- in fact, all of them that I’ve contacted are certainly willing- going to look into it, and (unintelligible under interruption) Minister Association (unintelligible under interruption)
Reverend: Yeah, this is- this is the procedure. Have you called the First Baptist Church?
Gambill: Uh, no one-
Reverend: Dr. [John] Townsend?
Gambill: No one-
Reverend: No, I’ve been- I just- I just got back from vacation, so I- I don’t know if- whether they’re back from their vacations or not, but uh, this is a- would be a matter for- to be taken up with the- the Council of Churches.
Gambill: With the Council of Churches.
Reverend: Yes. And, of course, I’d contact them too, the- contact the ministers, like you’re doing, to- to- so that there- there’s some concrete action. And probably what they’ll do is, they will uh, verify the police report, and then they’ll take action.
Gambill: Umm-hmm. Umm-hmm.
Reverend: And uh, I think uh- Now I know the Unification Church, and some of them have talked to me considerably, I don’t have much uh- oh, what should I say, I haven’t had much to- to- to do with them-
Reverend: -in that sense, and that- the doctrines certainly aren’t ones that I- But I didn’t think there was anything like that in their doctrines, but if your stories- they haven’t been verified – but uh- Now at the First Baptist Church, they have a minister who is a- This is a Korean man.
Reverend: And uh, they have a Korean department there.
Reverend: So they might uh, be even more knowledgeable about this than I am.
Reverend: And- now- Did- The girl isn’t a convert, is she, the daughter? I mean, is she- she won’t go back-
Gambill: Oh, no no. Of course not. She was just uh- re- Just like- You know how teenagers are.
Reverend: Investigating. Certainly. Sure.
Gambill: Right. You know, and uh- Certainly not, you know, but-
End of side one
Reverend: -this uh, should be stopped before they get any more young people involved.
Gambill: Well, that- that was my feeling, you know.
Gambill: And I thought, well, the ministers would certainly want to- wouldn’t want any of their uh, young folk to wander-
Reverend: Oh, yeah. Yeah, or anybody else’s.
Gambill: Well, right, that’s- of course, of course.
Reverend: Yes. This is true. I uh- You’re Mrs. Gambill?
Gambill: Right. Uh-huh.
Reverend: Yeah. And- and you are contacting the churches.
Gambill: Yes, I- I’m calling the- just going down the list and calling them, because I think it’s something that they ought to know about.
Reverend: Good. I- I think you’re right, and I- and uh- the uh- Uh- Whatever- If you have additional information, I’d transmit it to the proper authorities, and to the churches too. Sometimes now- the churches are- are- are extremely interested, but we have so many uh, uh- what should I say – crackpots, I shouldn’t use that word, but people who are doing so many things that uh- they uh- You- You almost have to keep hands off.
Gambill: I understand that.
Reverend: But in this case, where there’s positive proof, ’cause there’ll be testimony, I think it should be out and exposed to warn people (unintelligible under interruption)
Gambill: I certainly do too.
Reverend: And I think you’re doing absolutely right, and I- And the girl isn’t really injured, is she?
Gambill: Well, uh, no, I mean, but of course, all black and blue. (unintelligible under interruption) terrible traumatic experience, of course.
Reverend: (unintelligible under Gambill) Certainly. That very- very bad experience, but something good can come out of it, if you pursue it.
Gambill: Yes. That’s- that’s true. That’s true. Thank you so much.
Reverend: Yeah, yeah. Umm-hmm. Well, thank you for calling.
Gambill: Hi, this is Mrs. Gambill calling, uh, I know you don’t know me, but I was calling in regard to something that happened to my daughter yesterday at the uh- she attended the Unification Church for a few times, just to see what it was, and uh, on Olive- uh, the Reverend Sun Myat Moon is the leader of that, I understand. Uh, and uh, she disagreed with some of their teachings, and so they beat her with a rubber hose quite severely. And of course, we are taking legal action, but I was just wondering, you know, uh, uh, you- if you as a minister had any ideas of what else could be done about such a- a- a church as this.
Minister: Uh, was- Is this the one that uh, this Korean man, uh, is in the- You said Moon, didn’t you?
Gambill: Yeah, I think so. I don’t know that much about it, but she said-
Minister: Uh-huh. Yes. Well, we had those people coming to our congregation at Twelfth and Hoover, trying to get us to uh, join in with them, and we wouldn’t have a thing to do with it, because they are absolutely twisting the Bible, uh- I have his articles that he wrote that John the Baptist was uh, deluded, and had-
Gambill: Oh, my goodness.
Minister: Oh, some of the things here- I don’t know how anybody in their right mind could follow that man, so far off. Uh- uh, she went to the church in Los Angeles, where they- where they meet, is that it?
Gambill: Uh, right, and she just- you know teenagers are- you know how they are, they think they’ve got to look into everything. Now of course, naturally, she won’t have no part of it now, but uh-
Minister: Yes. Uh-huh.
Gambill: I just think this is a terr- And I was- You know, I’m not familiar with their teachings too much.
Minister: Uh, they- they uh, they beat her because she wouldn’t accept it, is that the idea? Or-
Gambill: That’s right.
Minister: Is that right? I never heard of anything like that.
Gambill: Well, I think it’s terrible.
Minister: Well, you can see how far that would be from the principles of Christ, because when people wouldn’t come to him, he wept over them, you know. He didn’t beat ’em. (Laughs)
Gambill: Well- Yes. Of course. Well, of course, of course.
Minister: He said uh- he was- his heart was broken because they wouldn’t come to him.
Gambill: Yes, yes.
Minister: Well, I never heard of anything like that at all.
Gambill: Well, I hadn’t either, and I thought, well-
Minister: You know, I think it might be- uh, it might not be bad to- to write a little piece to the-the Times, you know, you- on the page where people write in, you know, their thoughts and everything?
Gambill: Editorial page, you mean, or-
Minister: Uh-huh. Uh, and just, just to let people know what- what’s going on.
Gambill: Right. Well, that does sound like a- an idea.
Minister: Uh-huh. That would be the only thing, and- and uh, that I would know, uh- You sa- Did you say you’re going to ta- Are you going to take legal action?
Gambill: Yes. Of course. Um-hmm.
Minister: Yes. Well, I wouldn’t blame you for that, because, my lands, they don’t even allow them to whip our children in the schools anymore. (Laughs) And the church would be the last place, it would seem to me, where they would want to.
Gambill: Well, I certainly agree with that, and- but I thought, you know, you ministers ought to be aware of that, because uh, uh, you know, that’s a terrible thing to be happening these days.
Minister: That’s right. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Gambill: It shouldn’t happen anyhow, but uh-
Minister: Do- Do you live down in uh, the main part of town, or are you out in this area uh- I’m in Westwood, you know.
Gambill: In Westwood.
Minister: Uh, I was just going to say, we’d love to meet you sometime, to come to our congregation, 12th and Hoover. Have you ever attended there?
Gambill: Uh, no, I haven’t. I’ve just uh, uh, was just visiting here, actually, but uh-
Minister: Uh-huh. Well, I wish you’d tell your daughter to come over there. We follow the Bible. We- we uh, we do not have any of the creeds, uh, the other churches write their own creeds and everything. We feel that that’s uh, dishonoring the Bible. The Bible is enough without having- well, just between you and me, the Mormons have their Book of Mormon they go by, uh, why can’t we be satisfied with the Bible, is the way we feel about it.
Gambill: Yeah, indeed, indeed.
Minister: And uh, Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy and the Christian Science has their book, Key To the Scriptures, and uh, back in the days of the apostles and the early church, they didn’t have any of those books, so if they could be saved without them, we can too, you see.
Gambill: Yes. Uh-huh. I certainly agree with that.
Minister: And I would be happy to meet your daughter, if she would come down there, and I’d like for her (Laughs) to uh, to tell our young people just what happened to her. What age did you say she was?
Gambill: Uh, she’s 18.
Minister: 18. Uh, single?
Gambill: Yes, uh-huh. Yes, uh-huh.
Gambill: Well, they sometimes think they have to look into things for themselves, you know-
Minister: I know it-
Gambill: And it’s terrible to have to learn that way.
Minister: Well, that is- that is a terrible thing, and- and I’m glad you called me about it, but if I were you, I’d just write in there, and- and just simply say, don’t send your children there, if that’s the way they treat them.
Minister: And uh, that’ll make them get on the beam, I think, more than anything else. (Laughs)
Gambill: Well, that’s certainly a good suggestion, and I thank you so much.
Minister: Well, all right, and uh, you tell your daughter to come down sometime. What is her first name?
Gambill: Uh, Jane.
Minister: Well, we’d be happy to meet here, and- and we have some fine people. We’re at 12th and Hoover Street. You know where Hoover is, don’t you?
Gambill: Twelfth and Hoover. Yes. Um-hmm. Um-hmm.
Minister: Uh-huh. Just uh, two blocks south of uh, Olympic, on Hoover.
Gambill: Uh-huh. Well, I’ll certainly tell her about it.
Minister: Yes, I’ll be glad to meet her, uh-huh.
Gambill: Well, thank you so much.
Minister: Okay. Fine. Um-hmm. Bye.
Gambill: Uh. Yes uh- This is uh, Mrs. Gambill calling. He doesn’t know me, but uh, I wanted to just explain to him what happened to my daughter yesterday. Uh, she attended this Unification Church on Olive, and uh, just been kind of looking into it, and she disagreed uh, uh, with- wholeheartedly with some of their teachings–
Gambill: And uh, uh, they beat her with a rubber hose until she was black and blue. She’s just 18.
Gambill: And uh, the Reverend Sun Myat Moon is the leader of that church, I understand, I’m not that familiar with it at all, but she just uh, thought she wanted to look into it, and uh, I’m just wondering if uh, what he thought the ministers could do with this kind of behavior in a church or what- what could be done about that. Of course, we are taking legal action, but uh, just won-
Woman: Umm-hmm. Where you say this was?
Gambill: Uh, it’s uh, 635 Olive.
Gambill: Unification Church. And uh, I was uh, just wondering what he thought, you know, if there- if he thought there was anything that he could do, uh, you know, to look into the situation or uh- I just think that the-
Woman: I don’t know, because uh, the world is in such a turmoil now-
Gambill: That’s true.
Woman: -and people are doing anything. They’re professing one thing and doing another.
Woman: Which is very sad, and we have to be so careful.
Woman: But I don’t know what his point of view will be on it.
Woman: But- Can I have him call you?
Gambill: Uh, well, I was uh, just uh- maybe I can call him back, I was just about to leave, I have to leave, uh, uh, to pick my daughter up, but I- perhaps uh, you could leave the message and he least would be aware of what’s happening.
Woman: Oh, I sure will.
Woman: Now how is your daughter doing?
Gambill: Well, she’s uh- she’s doing fine, but uh- Of course, she’s awfully sore from all the black and blue marks, you know.
Woman: Oh, that’s too bad.
Gambill: But it was a-
Woman: People are so sad.
Gambill: You have to learn the hard way sometimes, I guess, you know.
Woman: Yeah. You have to tell her, she gonna have to be careful.
Gambill: That’s right.
Woman: That she has to be careful what uh, environment she goes into.
Gambill: That’s right. That’s right. Uh- Sometimes teenagers are just inquisitive, you know.
Woman: That’s true. That’s true.
Gambill: And pay- Okay, thank you so much.
Woman: Well, I hope she get along all right.
Gambill: Well, I’m sure she will.
Woman: Feel uh, [at] ease to call him back, if you like.
Gambill: Thank you so much.
Gambill: Well, I was wondering if I could just leave a message. This is Mrs. Gambill. He doesn’t know me, but I wanted to call and uh, ask his opinion on uh, what had happened to my daughter. He uh- he might have some advice uh- She uh, had attended this Unification Church on Olive, you know, a few times.
Gambill: And uh, uh, I believe uh, the uh, Reverend Sun Myung Moon is the leader of that. Uh, but she disagreed with some of their teachings yesterday, and uh, she came home all black and blue, and they had beaten her with the rubber hose, which I think is really atrocious. Uh, like I say, she had been there just a few times and just kinda looking into it. Uh, but- Of course, we’re taking legal action, but I wondered, uh, uh, if the reverend as a minister had any uh, other ideas what- as to what could be done with something like this.
Woman: Do you mean the people at the church did that?
Gambill: I beg your pardon?
Woman: The people at the church did it?
Gambill: Yes, uh-huh. And I just wondered, uh, he as a minister, what he thought, you know, the churches could do about something like this to expose him or, you know, at least let- so other young folk wouldn’t be- make that mistake.
Woman: That’s actually happened, huh.
Gambill: Right, um-hmm.
Woman: Oh, this is terrible.
Gambill: Yes, it’s- it’s- it’s disgraceful. Disgraceful.
Woman: Yeah. Oh. Well, I wish he was here to talk with you. But he isn’t here.
Gambill: Well, I’m sorry he’s not there, but perhaps you could just leave the message. At least he would know- be aware that this is happening.
Woman: Yes, I’ll- Well, and you could- And what’s the name of the church?
Gambill: Unification uh, Church-
Gambill: At 635 Olive. Uh, the Reverend Sun Myat Moon, I understand, is the leader of the group. I don’t- I’m not that familiar with it.
Woman: Ah, yes.
Woman: Well, I’ll tell him about it, and uh, if you should call back, perhaps he’ll have an answer for you.
Gambill: All right. Thank you so much.
Woman: All right. Bye-bye.
Man: Jehovah’s Witnesses?
Man: Yes, I am.
Gambill: Oh. Well, uh- my name is Mrs. Gambill, and-
Man: Mrs. Gambill?
Man: Yes, Mrs. Gambill.
Gambill: Uh, the reason I was calling, I wanted to uh, uh, to relate what had happened to my daughter at- She was in- uh, went to the Unification Church on Olive Street, uh-
Gambill: And I guess that is run by- or led by the Reverend Sun Myat Moon, and she was just- been there a few times, just to kind of look into it, you know.
Gambill: And um, she disagreed with uh, uh, the teachings, I think the fact that he said he- uh, they said that he said he was Jesus Christ or something, and uh, uh, they beat her violently with the rubber hose, till she was black and blue, and- of course, we’re going to takelegal action, but I’m just wondering, uh, you as a minister would have any advice as to what can be done or what the churches could do-
Man: Ex- Excuse me a moment, Mrs.- Mrs. Gambill.
Man: Uh, yes, uh, yes now.
Gambill: Uh, just wondered if you had any advice as to what could be done or if the ministers could do anything to, you know, to protest this kind of thing, or to stop it or whatever. Of course, legal action is being taken, but you know, I feel that uh, you know, the churches ought to know about it so it doesn’t happen to some of their people or anyone else.
Man: Well, this is a very unusual incident. I certainly don’t know about that, uh, what they do in these churches or these organizations.
Man: Uh, that sounds like a very strange thing- It’s supposed to be a Christian church?
Gambill: Well, I think it- it may be sort of a cult thing, I don’t- I don’t know that too much about it, but she was 18 and just- you know how uh, teenagers are sometimes, just kind of want to look into different things, you know, and-
Gambill: And uh- But of course, naturally she found she couldn’t disagree with theirteaching, and so she got beaten for it, so naturally she’ll have no part of it anymore.
Man: No. I see. Well, this is- is very odd. We- We certainly don’t uh, know anything about those, you know, churches like that uh, and we know there’s an awful lot of religions, but you know, we don’t know the workings of them, or the- what they teach or what they’resupposed to. I- It would be- be very strange for Christian church or church that claimed to follow Jesus Christ to do something like that to attenders, wouldn’t it?
Gambill: Well, yeah, I think they uh, have rather far out teachings, like they think the leader is the Messiah and all this kind of stuff, and that’s what she was disagreeing with, you know, ’cause she’d just been there a few times, of course, and didn’t know the- you know, all the uh- uh, the teachings but uh- It-
Man: No, I can- I can certainly appreciate your concern about something like that. It sounds very strange and odd, and we really couldn’t give an account for all the many different religions that we see uh, sects or what goes on in these different organizations and movements.
Gambill: Well, speak- yeah, speaking of sex, I understand he’s been arrested for molesting children too, so, naturally uh, my daughter won’t have any part of it, but just-
Man: No, but what I mean is sect, I mean like sectarian.
Gambill: Oh, I beg your pardon. I misunderstood you.
Man: Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah, uh-huh. Uh, well, yes, uh, it would be very strange to find a- a, you know, supposedly a Christian church or follower of Jesus Christ to do something like that to- to people attending, you know, the church or whatever it is.
Gambill: Well, that- that’s- I mean, I think it’s outrageous myself, but I just wondered- of course, legal action will be taken, but uh, you know, I don’t know if there’s anything that the ministers can do about it or- At least be aware of it, I guess.
Man: Well, no, as uh- as Jehovah’s Witnesses, we- we teach the Bible, we study with people in their own home or invite them to our Kingdom Hall and our public meetings and uh, let them see exactly what the Bible says.
Gambill: Right. I see. Uh-huh.
Man: This is what we do, and uh, this is- our meetings are open to the public, and uh, we uh- Many people are coming to an act that knowledge is not a momentary or just a- oh, emotionalthing, but people uh, after studying for, well, at least six months, people become baptized-
Gambill: Um-hmm. Um-hmm.
Man: -as they, you know, as they go in faith and knowledge. Everything doesn’t come all at once. You have to really get an understanding.
Gambill: Yes, really study (voice trails off)
Man: Well, if you know what the Bible said, and Jesus himself said, in all your getting, get understanding. That’s what it said in Proverbs 12.
Gambill: Indeed. Indeed.
Man: And so (stumbles over words) in John 17:3 says, This means everlasting life (unintelligible word) knowledge of you, and the one who you sent forth, Jesus Christ. So taking in knowledge- and the only place that knowledge, true knowledge could be found is in- in the Bible. That’s why we emphasize study of the Bible.
Man: So I mean- and uh, if uh, we- our conduct is, you know, is bad, well, it- it- we would have to answer to Jehovah God and Jesus Christ about things like that-
Man: (unintelligible under interruption) -no one would ever have to so- be- feel, at least physically and mo- being molested in um, in, you know, in our meetings, or-
Gambill: Right. Right. Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm.
Man: This is something that, you know, when you told me that, that sounds rather strange, even for the Christendom, but you can’t be too- too surprised at the things in Christendom, since the people- since generally that uh, they are putting less and less emphasis on God’s Word, the Bible.
Gambill: Umm-hmm. Umm-hmm.
Man: You know, nowadays-
Gambill: Right, right.
Man: And that’s the- why we stress for our place (unintelligible word), study the Bible and see exactly what the Bible says. Therefore, we can’t go wrong.
Gambill: Right, right. Well, thank you so much uh, uh, for your time.
Man: Yes, well, thank you for calling. I hope everything uh, turns out all right, and-
Gambill: Well, I’m sure it will.
Man: If you ever get an opportunity to have a Bible study with Jehovah’s Witnesses, I’d advise you, and I’d like to encourage you to, you know, take advantage of it.
Gambill: Well, thank you so much for the invitation. I’ll certainly consider it. Thank you.
Man: Yes- Yes, ma’am.
Gambill: Umm-hmm. Bye.
Man: Goodbye. Umm-hmm.
Gambill: I wa- wanted to uh, relate what happened to my daughter yesterday at the uh- She attended the Unification Church on Olive, uh, she’d been there just a few times just to see what it was all about, and I guess the Reverend Sun Myat Moon is the leader of that or something, uh, but uh, she disagreed with some of their teachings yesterday, and they uh, beat her with the rubber hose, uh-
Minister: You said, beat her with a rubber hose?
Gambill: Yes, because she was quite black and blue all over needless to say, uh-
Minister: How old is your daughter?
Gambill: Uh, she’s 18, uh, of course, we’re taking legal action, but I just wondered uh, as a minister, if you had any other suggestion as to what could be done.
Minister: You are taking legal action.
Gambill: Right. Uh-huh.
Minister: Well, no, I think uh, what you’re doing there is the thing you ought to do. Uh, I think that uh, it might be well for you to report the uh- your experience with the Unification Church to the Council of Churches here, the Los Angeles Church Federation.
Minister: And so that they would know about it, and then they could pass out the word in their publicity.
Minister: ‘Cause I think other churches ought to know about this.
Gambill: I do too. Save someone else from- She just was kind of curious, you know, and went a few times, but of course, naturally didn’t agree with them and go then, but I think that’s a terrible experience.
Minister: Where- where did they meet?
Gambill: Uh, uh, on Olive Street. 635 Olive was the-
Minister: 635 South Olive?
Gambill: Uh, yes, uh-huh. And uh- so I- you know, I just-
Minister: That’s right near the uh, isn’t it, no, Olive.
Gambill: No, I’m not familiar with the area, I’d- ’cause I don’t live here myself.
Minister: Oh, 635 South Olive is uh-
Gambill: No, it’s Olive. I don’t know whether it’s South or not.
Minister: It’s off Pershing Square. (Clears throat) That’s uh, that’s downtown.
Gambill: Uh, but I- I- you know, I just felt that uh, something ought to be done to stop this.
Minister: Yes, definitely so.
Gambill: Uh-huh. Well, you suggest the Council of Churches.
Minister: Yes, I think that’s uh, that’s good.
Gambill: All right.
Minister: You should report that.
Gambill: Thank you so much.
Minister: And uh, (Pause) I- I hope that you will uh, move very fast in the legal action because uh, uh, people like that ought to be arrested and exposed to public view.
Gambill: Indeed. I certainly agree with that wholeheartedly.
Gambill: And we certainly are- are going to do that.
Minister: Yeah. All right.
Gambill: Thank you.
Minister: You bet.
Gambill: You know, if there’s any messes, clean ’em up and so on. Uh, she attended the uh, Unification Church on Olive uh, and uh, I guess the Reverend Sun Myat Moon uh, uh, is the leader of that. I- I’m not too familiar with the teachings and so on. But she did go a few times, just to inves- you know, just to see what it was all about. She’s 18. And she agreed uh, with some of their teachings yesterday, and she was beaten severely with the rubber hose and came home all black and blue.
Man: From where?
Gambill: Beg pardon.
Man: From where?
Gambill: From- from the Unification Church.
Man: Okay, I’ll tell you who to call, okay?
Man: Uh, let’s see, who could we call? Call the following number: 464-
Man: Yeah, let’s see, who exactly should you ask for? Ask- (Pause) Ask for, uh- (Pause) Hmm. I just want to get the right person for you.
Man: So you don’t have to get, you know, here and there and any other place before you get somebody to talk to. Umm- (Pause) Let’s see. (Pause) Uh, I would say, talk to (Pause) Artie Merin.
Gambill: R.E. what?
Man: Merin. And he’s a- he’s a minister of uh- of uh- (Pause) uh, church relations, basically.
Man: Uh, for Scientology.
Man: And uh- so you just uh, call that number, and then you’re going to have to ask for Artie Merin.
Man: And uh- uh- (Pause) Then, when- when you- when you talk to him, why just uh, just tell him what you told me, and uh, and uh, that should- should probably- (Interrupts himself) Oh! Oh, no, hold on. I just thought of ano- of the person you should really talk to.
Man: I thought there was a better person for you to talk to. Talk to uh, Lori Zern. At- Call same number, same num- phone number, and ask for Lori Zern. Okay?
Gambill: All right.
Man: And she’s in charge of uh, the social coordination bureau-
Gambill: All right.
Man: -for the church, and it’s- That’s really where this would come under, totally.
Gambill: All right.
Man: That’s the right area, and uh, and uh, just give her that information. Okay?
Gambill: Okay. Thank you so much.
Gambill: Mmm, bye.
Gambill: Reverend Ellis?
Woman: Uh. (Pause) (phone put through)
New person: Hello.
Gambill: Hello, is Reverend Ellis there?
New person: Reverend who?
New person: Oh, you have the wrong number.
Gambill: Oh, I beg your pardon.
New person: That’s all right.
Gambill: Hello, is the reverend in, please?
Woman: Yes, he is.
Gambill: May I speak with him?
Woman: Just a minute. (Pause)
Gambill: Uh, Reverend Sledge?
Gambill: This is Mrs. Gambill calling. Uh, I know you don’t know me, but-
Sledge: Mrs. who?
Gambill: Yes. Uh, I was calling in regards uh, something that happened to my daughter at the Unification Church, uh, that Reverend Moon’s church, uh, yesterday. She uh, had just attended a few times and she disagreed with the- the teachings there, and uh, things that were being said, and- and so they beat her severely with a rubber hose, ’cause she was black and blue already. Of course, we’re taking legal action on that, I was just wondering if uh, you as a minister had any other suggestion as to what could be done about something like this.
Sledge: (unintelligible word) This is a Negro woman? (Pause) A white woman?
Gambill: Uh- White.
Sledge: White. Um-huh. And- all right. Uh, (stumbles over words) and you say Mr.- Mrs. Gambill your name?
Sledge: Which church is it now?
Gambill: The Unification Church on Olive, uh, the Reverend Moon is the leader of that church.
Sledge: Reverend Moon? I hear a lot of talk from him.
Gambill: I beg your pardon.
Sledge: I hear a lot of talk from him. The Unification Church.
Gambill: Yeah, right.
Sledge: I’m trying to get the facts uh, in my mind. And this- So he was preaching- or teaching or something.
Gambill: I don’t know that he was. Uh, one of their leaders, you know, uh, he’s a uh, one of their leaders. I guess they kind of worship uh, Reverend Moon or something like that. Uh, I don’t know that much about it, though-
Sledge: You don’t know whether he himself, the pastor (unintelligible word) some of his assistants. Either-
Gambill: Well, I’m sure the Reverend Moon was not there.
Sledge: Uh, there must be assistant.
Gambill: Yes, uh-huh.
Sledge: Uh, the Unification, the name of the church, and uh, he was preaching.
Sledge: And your daughter uh, did not agree.
Gambill: Right. Right. She uh-
Sledge: And uh, what did she- How did she react? Uh, did she g- get up uh, in the midst of the worship service and uh, let it be known that she didn’t agree and-
Gambill: Yes, I- Yes, I think that was the case. Of course, she’s rather disraught [distraught] so I don’t have all the facts, but, uh, uh, that was the case.
Sledge: Yes, I’m trying to get the foundation so I can see exactly what happened. Now,ordinarily, without knowing the facts, if uh- (Pause) (stumbles over words) if she said anything at all during the worship service, you know, that was out of order.
Gambill: That was out of order.
Sledge: If- If she said anything at all during worship service in the way of uh, saying that she was dissatisfied with the service.
Sledge: (Stumbles over words) And then she had the right to accept or reject anything being done in the service.
Sledge: But uh-
Gambill: But not- You’re saying not during the service (unintelligible under interruption)
Sledge: But- But- But- But during the service itself, uh, you- you aren’t supposed to interfere or interrupt, uh, the service. Now- but now, that’s- that in itself does not justify uh, other acts that I’m hearing.
Sledge: I’m hearing that she- because of it, somebody beat her. Who was this somebody who did the beating?
Gambill: Well, I- I don’t know. Somebody that uh-
Sledge: (unintelligible word) a member of the church?
Gambill: Yeah. Correct. Uh-huh. Correct.
Sledge: Well, that’s also, uh, is wrong. You see, in law, uh, they say two wrongs don’t uh, make a right. And the- and sometimes they say the last person who’s on the stand has more chance on the stand to uh, than the first chances. The last chance of law, and all that type of thing, too, so I think that they really put themselves in position to uh, (Pause) uh, be sued or something or (unintelligible word) whatever assault uh, case it might be. (unintelligible word)
Gambill: Uh, we-
Sledge: I- I don’t think that a person uh, should disagree with the minister uh, uh, uh, you know, from the pulpit. I think it should, uh, reverence uh, his position. Not because he’s right, not because he’s wrong, but because he is in- in the pulpit.
Gambill: I see, uh-huh.
Sledge: And that uh, even the members, though, ought to have enough uh, common sense uh, to recognize the- that they have no right, neither to assault a person because the person made a mistake.
Sledge: How old is your daughter?
Gambill: She’s 18. Uh, then you propose the only thing is legal action, then, right? I mean, just-
Sledge: Yeah, because uh, they (stumbles over words) you can’t- you can’t take the law in your own hands.
Gambill: Oh, no.
Sledge: (stumbles over words) She uh, probably did do wrong. But you can’t take the law in your own hands.
Gambill: (unintelligible word), I agree with that. That wasn’t what I was proposing, but I just wondered, as- as a, a minister, you know, if (unintelligible word) you know, thought of uh, any other council. I think we could go to, you know, uh-
Sledge: Well, uh- (stumbles over words) Let’s see, now. Where have you done (unintelligible word) you say, now?
Gambill: I beg your pardon.
Sledge: Where have you- What action have you taken already then?
Gambill: Well, we’re going to uh, get a lawyer and, and- uh, get a lawyer, you know, and uh, proceed on that uh, ground, but-
Sledge: But, but now, could you reconcile this issue without uh, going to court? (stumbles over words) Have you talked to Reverend Moon?
Gambill: Well, no, uh, we haven’t uh, haven’t talked to that, uh, to him yet, uh-uh.
Sledge: Then maybe uh, y’all could make some type of uh, uh, reconciliation about the situation among yourselves, and then- and then (unintelligible word) unless uh, some satisfaction, would compensation be given for this uh- Is she still at the doctor?
Gambill: Uh, uh, no, she’s just resting now. Umm-hmm. She’s resting.
Was she- was she badly beaten?
Gambill: Well, uh, uh, she was, you know, has these bruises all over her body, so I would say that was fairly severe.
Sledge: Well, I think that uh- Now, are you a strong uh, member of the church yourself?
Gambill: Uh, no, I don’t- I don’t belong to that church at all. Uh-uh.
Sledge: I mean, any church?
Gambill: Oh, of my church?
Gambill: Yeah. Um-hmm.
Sledge: What church do you go to?
Sledge: (Pause) Well, that’s the reason why I’m saying that uh- Courthouse (unintelligible word) conviction is about uh, taking your brother to court, and that type of thing.
Sledge: You know, in the Scriptures, they don’t take their brothers (unintelligible word) court, and that type of thing. That’s the reason why I’m asking whether or not there could be some-
Gambill: Well, I- that’s a suggestion to consider, indeed, yes.
Sledge: Yes. And uh- And you are Miss who now?
Sledge: Mrs. Gambill.
Sledge: And what’s your phone number, Mrs. Gambill?
Gambill: I don’t uh, uh-
Sledge: Okay, then. Well, I- Okay-
Gambill: Have one right here.
Sledge: Okay, that’s okay. I- I just wanted to- to probably- uh, if another thought came to my mind, probably get in touch with you.
Gambill: Well, maybe I can call you a little later, if uh- in a few days or something.
Sledge: Yes, uh, do that, dear-
Gambill: Okay. Thank you so much.
Sledge: All right. Okay.
Gambill: Umm-hmm. Bye.
End of tape
Tape originally posted May 2004