Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.
Woman: — from the beginning, and for you to give me this chance for me to come back — I have no reason to want to live — since I been here, I’ve, I’ve— all I’ve seen in the beauty is socialism, and I feel that my life is fulfilled and if death comes, it’s no— it’s no big deal to me, because I’ve already lived my life, just being here with the family. Thank you, Dad.
Jones: Thank you. We will, we will try to light candles and not curse darkness.
Young child: Um, I’m prepared to die for this family if I have— have to for freedom. Thank you, Dad.
Jerry Parks: I’d also be prepared to die after 44 years of ah, ah, being able to ah, contribute anything to this life or if I find any point a reason for it at all, and not being well-known, ah, at all, there sure would be no glory in it. But uh for the children here, for freedom, as long as there is one remains on this earth that isn’t free, none of us are free. And I’m prepared to give my life, if need be.
Jones: Get your heads together with him and think of any (struggles for words)— I didn’t catch uh, all that there, I didn’t catch all, but anyone have any, you, from the floor, want to challenge anybody, that’s fine— I didn’t catch, that was the only one I didn’t catch. Anybody have any questions of it.
Male in crowd: Would you take your daughter’s [Tracy Parks’] life if it came to it?
Jerry: No, I’d give mine in the place of hers.
Woman: Would you like her to be taken by the fascists, then?
Jones: Now hold it, now, you— I’ve got on a sensitive small point, and that may be— you better give me— yeah, there’s a lo— lo— lot to that to think about.
Crowd: Low conversation.
Jones: Think about it, think about it. He— he bare— brought up a sensitive question, and you may not understand the gravity of that question, but all of our children have faced this — we went through White Nights — so they’ll not be hurt by it. We haven’t had any child ha— causing us any difficulty by facing this kind of thought.
Crowd: Low conversation.
Jerry: Are you asking me ah, if I would give my life in the place of my child? Was that the question?
Woman in crowd: No, the question is would you give your life (radio static) she would be taken by fascists—
Jones: I’m not going to— ah— (Pause) He asked you a question. He can’t be heard. (Pause) (Unintelligible— sounds like “Some of these”) clean glasses? Vincent had something for me which he got in in time.
Man at mike: Jerry, the question would be, if the fascists were coming up the road right now, and we were going to lay down our lives and fight for it, you say you would give your life for your child’s, but would you leave it for the fascists to have? What would you do in that case?
Jerry: If it came to that, I would have to take her life.
Crowd: Right. (Applause)
Jones: Fine. You understand that? You understand that? Were you— But she’s— she’s so old, she’d fight. How old is your child?
Jones: Then she passes the age. We fight at eleven. It’s under that, that we consider that— She would take up a cutlass and fight till she was dead, unless it came to an overwhelming invasion, and then we would gently put them to, to sleep, which we have with they’ve never know what ha— hit them. We’re already prepared for that. A people who are really loving and a Father who is ch— genuinely compassionate is prepared for all such emergencies. I have complete— in fact, if it was such a melee that they were going to try to set us up to look like we were fighting black against black and using the army here, who would being duped, if they were — although we’ve been having very good relations with the commander of the entire Guyanese Defense Force, so that becomes less likely— but if that were the case, we would have arrangement that every living soul here can step out of life easily. (Pause) But you don’t that, as long as there’s alternatives in which you can make a mark— you don’t do that unless there’s alternatives— all alternatives are closed for you to make a mark against fascism. That is, by taking some of the fascist CIA that might be located here, which we know some. And uh— I don’t mean in this, just this community, I’m talking about in the nation and then some perhaps de— be delegated to go back to do some work. (Pause) If you know what I mean.
Jones: And I mean work in which then you would give your life, you would take— (Pause) remove the enemies’ lives and then take your life (Pause) before they got a chance to catch you. Why? (Pause) Because their torture methods are so severe, as you saw on The Day Of The Jackal — how many studied that? (Pause) There’s a brave man who had things locked to his wrist so they would have to cut his arm off, but they had such ingenious methods back then in the 60’s, that they made him scream out in his subconscious, even, he was so benumbed, he screamed out the name “Crist” and “Jackal”, and gave them the lead to lead to the communist, likely, who was working for something more than money, who was trying to get th— the dictator, even when they— remember when they caught him? (Pause) I mean he said, that your, your cover’s known, your cover’s blown, they know you, he kept on going, and he had two hundred and fifty thousand bucks in the Swiss bank, didn’t he?
Jones: But he kept on going to get the son of a bitch.
Man in crowd: He made a deal so he could get back out.
Jones: He made a deal, yes, ah, I thank you, he made a deal. They, they, that was the honorable deal. He said, if any one of you are caught — something’s happening to some of the P.A., ‘cause I can tell the difference—
Man: Test, test.
Jones: He said— they said, if he made the deal — (tape cuts off, and then into middle of word a few seconds; was this an edit?) all started. He made it. (Struggles for words) Something wrong. It’s outside, it went off.
Crowd: Low conversation.
Jones: And uh, he made the deal. You remember. If anyone of you are caught, the three in this room, I have a right to call off the whole thing. Remember when he said that? He said, I have a right to do it in my own time, when I think it’s convenient to be done, to be done successfully, and if any one of you are caught, if it leaks out who I am, then I have a right to call it off. And in fact, his— it— the agent who called him from Paris, when he called in Paris, they said, “Blow it. It’s, it’s blown. Deal’s off.” But he kept on going. He kept on going. (Pause) And he succeeded. (Pause) He got there. The police tried to make it look he— Hollywood always tries to make it look good, but he succeeded. (Pause) And that’s, that’s the kind of gut that it takes, and he also killed who else— what other dictator did he kill? — that showed he had a communist connection. [Gen. Rafael] Trujillo. Trujillo. Fascist dictator of Dominican Republic who held on— murderous regime upheld by the— even after it was over— U.S. Marine Corps tried to maintain, it still does maintain, the government. So you got our will to fight as long as there is anything to fight. But if it’s going to cause dishonor to socialism, it’d be best to just lay down our lives, and what’s that called?
Crowd: Scattered response from crowd.
Jones: (Calls out in affirmation) Revolutionary suicide. Any suicide for selfish reasons, which are always hostile reasons, is always going to bring you immorality, and your history will be cursed. Furthermore, you’ll come back again in some other form, for sure. Lower form. You’ll come back again reincarnated in a lower form. But that’s not the point. The morality of it is, you’d— suicide is unacceptable. Except for revolutionary reasons. Well, you answered the question very well. You would not want to leave your childre— child to be tortured by such methods as that, and that’s what we’ve made protection will not happen. We will not let anybody be left to that kind. The advanced seniors or the small children will not go through that. (Pause) They’re not going to make mockery of our babies (Pause) and torture our old people, right?
Crowd: Right. (Scattered applause)
Jones: Hands up for those who have not eaten. (Calls out) There’s something wrong with the P.A. vol— system on here now, if you can correct this. I can tell.
Long pause while work on P.A. system(?)
Roberts: Dad, from ‘68 to ‘69, the capitalists sent me to Vietnam to fight a war that I didn’t know anything about. I had no principle to die in that war. You have saved my life so many times, Dad, now I’ll have no life of my own, I’m living on your time. I would die for you right now, Dad. I’m willing to face the front line with you right now. Thank you, Dad.
Jones: What is it? Once again, I didn’t catch that comment, uh, Roberts.
Roberts: I say from ‘68 to ‘69, Dad, the capitalists sent me to a war in Vietnam to fight for no principle. I had no principle to die there. Now you have saved my life so many times, Dad, and the only principle I have now is to live the life with you, and I would die for you right now, Dad. I would like to be on the front line when you send me out, Dad.
Jones: Thank you.
Roberts: Thank you, Dad.
Jones: We’re now meeting with one of the— try to stop this shit about the doctor, we’re in a— we’re in giving our war demands in, in Georgetown now, with the Prime Minister in Russia, it’s a very untenable situation, uneasy situation. (Pause)
Man: Who hasn’t eaten?
Jones: It can be in the envelope. It could be in the envelope that I brought back here. It’s right in the me— the file box, right in the file box now.
Man: Keep your hands up.
Jones: ‘Cause it was also a strategy in which she offered to give her life, Terri [Buford] offered to give her life, is that the same thing where you offered to give your life and, uh, commit suicide to get one of the enemies? Is that the same shit? Well, it’s right there in the file, with my newspapers, right there in the file, right above the radio.
Crowd: Low conversation.
Jones: She saw this coming yesterday, (struggles for words) she don’t want any hero, she getting red-faced about it. (Conversational) And um, you say, well, that’s kinda bad news, kinda bad news, uh, so many people have been fucked. She’s been fucked. It’s worth it when— Last night she said, isn’t it worth it to the cause? (Pause) Last night, she wanted to go, she said, I will go back, and she one of the m— most genius personalities we have here. Right?
Jones: Hmm? Hmm?
Jones: You— you deal with her mind, you’ll find out. (Pause) Not sure she wouldn’t have done it anyway. There some people, you— you take gambles, you see. (Pause) (Angry) Well, goddamnit, get this motherfucker fixed. (Pause) Get a tone or get (struggles for words) a better quality of the voice. How many hearing me out there?
Crowd: Low murmurs.
Jones: You’re not hearing me too well. Back there at the back? (Pause) Not hearing me at all at the back. Now that’s outrageous. People always wave your hands when you can’t hear me. (Angry) What has gone out in here? (Pause) Got 53 minutes until press time. (Pause) (Voice raises) Anyway. You take those chances. I’m always cynical. (Pause) I operate from a zero. If you want something big out of people, or you want to keep traitors. There’s mo— There’s all kinds of fucks, right?
Jones: Some to cultivate the strength and the potential you see, right?
Jones: Others to keep people from treason. She wasn’t one, to keep from treason, I can tell you that. It’s been a long time ago, too, so you don’t need to worry about it. But last night — as I told you, I won’t tell the black ones unless some of you get too smuggy — (Pause) One of the best black women back in San Francisco fighting for us right now, has because she was with me. That’s what kept her cool. It made her feel— Unfortunately, you women do this to yourself. Your social acceptance comes through what a man thinks of you. (Pause) And if the leader is attracted to you, then somehow that cultivates. Well, you ought to know I’m attracted to you, I’m ready to die for every one of you, so that means I’m attracted to you. You follow what I’m saying? I’m attracted to all of you. How much more attraction can you have than to be ready to have your eyes plucked out? (Pause) (Voice lowers) You don’t understand that. You don’t understand. I might as well throw that— I might as well throw pearls to swine, than to throw it to some of you. Some of you do, or there’d have been a hell of a lot more claps. How many heard what I just said?
Crowd: Scattered applause
Jones: They heard it way behind? You people— They’re saying that row that you didn’t hear. (Pause) Well, last night, she was going back to get one. She said, I can do it. You’ve given so much to me, the cause has given to me, I’ll take care of it. (Pause) (Voice raises) And I said No. Because your mind is needed. There’s still hope, life— we weren’t even in a White Night, though it was possible that it was coming. I said No. The person that ought to offer it is somebody who’s not twenty— whatever she is, 26, 27, it should be somebody that’s nearly finished their life, who’s yet still sharp like some of these women that run up here and fought off all these security, practically. It ought to be somebody that was o— ready to step over the other side, or handicapped, or who have terminal illness like somebody that maybe we find have cancer or disabilities in their body, real serious disabilities. Those should be the ones that volunteer, but (Cries out) goddamn, rarely do they do it.
Crowd: Right. (Applause)
Jones: And don’t get threatened. Don’t get threatened. Everybody that I have ever (Pause) had that relationship with— I’ve told you all the traitors, and everybody else inside are the very means that some of you are protected, both black and white. (Pause) You understand what I’m saying? (Pause) White and black. They’re the very means that you can go to bed tonight and be safe. Some of them are in it. There’re others too that are not, that are still your buffers of protection, who never have. Strong people, because they were able to what? Vicariously identify, right? They were able to look at it, right?
Jones: Shit. That’s all right. It’s all right. Now you say, well, did everyone need it? (Voice goes up in shout) You never know. But if one needed it, baby, you better do it. (Pause) You follow what I’m saying?
Jones: You say, why’d you have to do it, Father? Because shitheads that I assigned to do it, nobody yet has ever done it right. (Pause) Now, now, let’s think about that. I assign men and women, and nobody but one that I ever knew — and she had her problems with a high-ranking governmental official, most powerful official — everybody fucked it up. Somebody with Grace? Fuck it up. You think I’m telling you stories. I’m telling you truths.
Jones: Who fuck it up with Grace? Doing all right now, good worker. Fuck it up. (Incredulous) You forgotten? Tim Carter, for Christ’s sake. You can’t forget. (Pause) Do I need to go into more? (Pause) (Laughs) (Cries out) There’s black ones that have fucked it up, there’re white ones that have fucked it up, so don’t ask me why I had to do it. Nobody else would do it. They got their ass caught up in it. One thing, if you’re going to be involved in helping to keep a traitor or to cultivate the personality into the strength that you see in them, you’ve got to keep your mind in socialism all the time. Do you follow me? Now, listen to me out here. You get to know me, some of you people, if you’d listen to me. (Pause) You’ve got to keep your mind above it. You don’t dare think they want you. (Pause) If you do, you’ve lost it right there.
Crowd: Right. (Applause)
Jones: You’ve lost it. (Pause) (Voice calms) You say, ah, ca— they love me. Shit, honey. If I’ve got $5000 for it, and they didn’t love me and they’re ready to kill me, one woman paying five thousand, they don’t— they don’t— you’re just kidding yourself. Nobody loves you, but Father. Nobody.
Jones: And you shouldn’t be loving nothing but socialism, that’s what you should be loving. Socialism. (Pause) And I don’t know why— That’s what makes me want to die. I never get claps for this. Never. (Voice rises) Talk about somebody got healed, and everybody’s shoutin’ all over the place.
Jones: I heal somebody to prolong their life so they’ll finally die, and everybody jumps up and down. (Pause) Can we fix this son-of-a-bitch? Thank you.
Jones: And that was the most important message I gave you in a long time, because it’s so sensitive, it’s painful to me to talk about. And it pains me, because it hurts others. (Pause) Nothing about me. I’m hesitant to show you any more. I don’t give a goddamn, I’ll tell you every failure, every guilt, every fault, every mistake, every victory. But I don’t like to make other people a showcase. You understand that?
Jones: So sex is (struggles for words) revealing other people’s lives. She’s talked about it publicly, but that’s what she was going to do last night. She was going to get out of here, leave, and commit suicide and disown me, so it would not look like she was connected with me, and I said No.
Crowd: Low conversation
Jones: Hmm? (Pause) Shit, I would say that was worth a fuck. (Pause) I would think so, but that’s not why she did it. That’s not why she did it.
Jones: ‘Cause a fuck is looonng ago in the past.
Jones: Peace. (Pause) One of the older black women right back there in San Francisco is fighting for us right now, and been kept by that, so don’t knock it. ‘Cause there’ve been young, old, men, women, black, white. (Excitedly, quickly) And if you can’t do it, then don’t knock me. You are the poor socialist. It’s your poor ass, as I’ve said, then I’ve had second thoughts as I said to this young woman over here, I said, can’t you go to bed? I said, if anybody deserves it, it’s Dr. [Larry] Schacht. And I thought, noooo way, I ain’t gonna give him that shit. No way. Umm-hmm. I ain’t going to give him nobody that’s doing him a service. She since said that she didn’t feel that way. But I ain’t gonna do that. I ain’t gonna trick my friends. You people are my friends now, unless you’re gonna be a fucking asshole and a traitor, then we’ll deal with you. But I (struggles for words) can’t go to bed with somebody— (Resigned) Oh, Jesus, makes me sick, makes me want to just cry out inside more than I can talk. To— to think that people are so damn picayune about who they go to bed with, and (Upset) particularly you women, all you have to do is lay there, and by God, I’ve had to keep it going all night. To make $5000 to save starving babies, I had to go from sundown till sun-up. That was the bargain the bitch made with me. (Pause) Nnn— I looked like somebody run my pick— prick look like it had been run through a meat grinder. (Pause) Then you women, all you have to do is lay there? Piss on you women. I mean, piss on any woman says they can’t do this, or they can’t do that. She didn’t say she couldn’t, but you were hesitant. You were hesitant there. You sure as hell was hesitant. (Pause) It was that she didn’t say she wasn’t— didn’t like him, she just said she wanted to be finished with sex altogether. I said, well, I don’t think that’s quite fair to him. He’s had none. That’s what I was trying to say to you. This prick’s had everything he wanted. (Pause) It wasn’t that she was really doing you a favor, I want to make that clear. I want to be very honest, ‘cause honesty— I been— I told you, I’ll give you all your victories, you’ve heard every victory over that microphone, and you’ll hear every defeat. Some of you’ll say it’s foolish, but I am going to die, we’re too close to the end of the world, I’m too close now to start any bullshit. People said, don’t get on with these emergencies, and then pricks set around here and say when we come on that they’re not for real. (Pause) What the fuck you think they go through all this shit? There’s only eight new people here tonight, I hope somebo— son-of-a-bitch that thought that has a double-take now. Eight new people here tonight. You have to go through for eight, why not wait for the whole bunch that’s in town. The goddamn town’s filled with people coming out. Why not wait then? (Lectures) You pricks don’t want to face a White Night, because you’re not capable of facing a White Night.
Crowd: Cheers and applause.
Jones: It’s gotta be— It’s gotta be unreal— It’s gotta be unreal, because you haven’t got the guts to die every day like I die.
Jones: (Cries out) Don’t give me no shit. That— That goes for one, that goes for all.
Scattered voices in crowdCrowd: Right.
Jones: I wouldn’t call alert alert alert and say this is the worst alert— the worst White Night in all, and (struggles for words) have people running over each other and falling down, I wouldn’t do that. What kind of inhumanity do you think I am? (Pause) That’s why I tipped you in on the radio. Goddamn, I guess you gotta pipe in everybody the radio every time, so they can see what the shit’s going on.
Scattered voices in crowd: Right.
Jones: ‘Cause people want to live in a dream world. Yeah! (Pause) I wonder what the hell you thought when they were shooting at us.
Jones: Hmm? When they come tropping in here with the goddamn government and the head of the— the Prime Minister’s brother come driving in here, nailing shit on our walls, when we won our first war, when the government was all out of the country then. (Pause) All of them were out then. No friend was here. They were all— Washington had tricked them into being there to sign the Panamanian treaty, which has since been totally sold out. The Panamanian people say, the president of P— Panama says, do you not expect us to have pride? We are human. That was his quote in the news this morning. Do you not expect us to be— uh, you expect us to not be human? We do have pride. (Pause) (Low voice of menace) ‘Cause US has just amended and amended and amended and amended and amended. Goddamn dogs. I wish I was there to kill them. For some of you, it’s only— (stumbles over word) Some of you made it precious. Some of you made it worthwhile. But some of you people? If I had to do it over again, all this beauty? I wouldn’t have come here to give you the beauty, ‘cause I didn’t come for the beauty. (Pause) I came to save you from jails, torture, concentration camps, a nuclear war which your skin will roll off your back [see contextual note here]. Your eyeballs will be burned out. That’s what I came to save you for. I wouldn’t have moved out on shit. I’da found the first fucking bomb — you heard me five years ago — I’da found out where it was gonna be, and parked my ass under it, and so woulda some of the rest of us. (Pause) We came to save people, seniors, from torture, black people that deserve— like one black sister said to me last night, Sister [Margrette] Jeffery I believe it was, said, Father, if there was no enemies, this is where I’da picked my life to be. And I thought, Sister Jeffery, wherever you are, that was the sweetest thing you could have said to me. Back there. She said, this is where I’da picked the end of my life to be, because of the beauty. (Pause) (Struggles for words) And the very few say things like that to me, Mom Jeffery. Very few. Usually stop me and say, (mimics old woman) “Well, I didn’t get my, all of my food today, and they didn’t get me the wrong medicine, and they made me wait five minutes in line.” That’s what the shit they stop me with. (Pause) Thank you, Mother Jeffery for that, I don’t know whether it’s two nights ago, whenever the hell it was, but when you said it, it locked in my heart. You said, if there was no enemy, the senior back there said, she’s standing there with her fist up, said if there was no enemies, if there was no danger, if our black people were not in trouble, this is where I’da picked the end ma— the end of my life to be. This is where I woulda come, because of all the beauty. And some of you ought to try to practice some of that appreciation, because her and her husband, they had good money, good house, good income, they had all they needed. Some you fuckers haven’t lived— you’ve lived from hand-to-mouth and begging, goddamnit, been on welfare all your life, and they never been on welfare a day in their life.
Jones: That’s what puts a boil in my ass. That’s what would— puts a boil in my ass, somebody getting 98 bucks, or a hundred sixty-six lousy bucks a month, and living in a rat-infested tenement, and having cockroaches crawling on the wall, and every goddamn thing else, and you can’t walk out in the street without getting mugged, or somebody climb through raping you or trying to set your house afire and say “I don’t like it ‘cause I didn’t get enough rice.” I’d like to give you some rice. Hot. (Pause) And Reb [James Edwards] back there will help me where to spoon it in. (Pause) (High laughter) People like Reb and his wife [Irene Edwards] give up big big businesses, all kinds of people like that, Mom Jeffery and h— her husband, good wages, no, they didn’t have to come over here. Some of you goddamn people, you’da been dead, if you hadn’t been over here. (Pause) ‘Course, some of them would have been too, Brother [Eartis] Jeffery would have, with a heart attack, but that’s not why they came. (Pause) Yeah, sure, stroke, sure, you woulda been, because blood pressure went down, but by God it wasn’t these people that brought the blood pressure down, ‘cause this shit— yeah— I’d like to see what kinda help we’d have. I believe our people wouldn’t age, (shouts) if it weren’t for you infernal sonsabitches that keep us up all night and all day.
Jones: (Shouts) Here’s a man that six months ago was dead as a doornail with cancer. Goddamn cancer cells, his (unintelligible word) rate was up so fucking high, there was no way in the world, and I still brought him through. I’d like to know what the hell could happen— Rose Peterson back there, cancer was through her goddamn body so bad, that they said there was no use to even try to give her radiation, and I healed her. I’d like to see what I could do if some of you sonofabitches would help us.
Jones: (Normal tone of voice) Forty-eight minutes until doomsday, press time. (Pause) How many understood what I was talking about? Everybody write about if, if we come through this White Night. Everybody write about what I— and if you have to ask your neighbor, you better, you better write what I just said about sex — why, who — not all the names — why I don’t talk about black, why I don’t like to talk about it, ‘cause it hurts others (radio interference over word) me, what it was done for, both to (radio inference) the strength and build the courage, and some of the very people that’re your best safeguards tonight. And some who are not, who watched and helped. So don’t say it’s just (radio interference over sentence). I ain’t going to get into that. It already will get people pissed then, so I ain’t going to get into that. Go on. What do you want to say?
(Radio interference over low crowd noise)
Jones: Is he up here again?
Woman: Edith Cordell is here (radio interference)
Jones: There’s one been with me for nearly 30 years. Get her off her feet. Goddamnit, through fires, they throw dynamite into our church coal, throwed slop in our windows, tried to arrest her, had her arrested, goddamnit, gonna put her in a mental institution in a strait-jacket till they drive her crazy. That’s what they try to do, all the families, and they were all Pentecostal and they—
Edith: That’s right.
Jones: — and the head of the Pentecostal church, the UPC, the largest Pentecostal church was right in the shit to take over her property, her land and her money and everything else. (Pause) In those days we weren’t turning over property, so it sure wasn’t done on my part to save her property only for her. And by God, I did save her and prophesied I would do it.
Edith: Thank you, Father.
Jones: Fact of the matter, I was miles away and knew at the very moment who was coming through the door, a detective, and I was uh— able to say the words to him that kept him from taking her in. If he had taken her in, (Pause) it’da been over, because they— the law said they could hold her six weeks—
Edith: That’s right.
Jones: — and that if she wa— wasn’t crazy, but at the end of six weeks, she would have been.
Crowd: That’s right.
Woman in crowd: (unintelligible) called her at home (unintelligible)
Jones: — and I called her at home when she would ordinarily be at work, she was supposed to have been to work —
Edith: That’s right.
Jones: — but I had a— one of those revelations that have saved you through the years —
Edith: That’s right.
Jones: — paranormal socialist dimension. Yes. Yes, sweetheart.
Edith: I feel it’d be a great honor to die tonight for this cause, and I’m telling you right now, I’d fight to the very last breath in my body against these devils that come in.
Crowd: Right. (Scattered applause)
Jones: She did too. We been fighting— 30 years ago. Thirty years ago, they haunted us every goddamn night, tried to harass, come into our properties, her house, ah— mine, ring us on the fuckin’ phone, call us all kinds of names and speak in tongues, put sugar in our gas tanks, take our wheels off our car, remove our batteries. Shit, we been at this 30 years, and she’s still ready to fight. Some of you ought to not mind fightin’.
Crowd: Right. (Applause)
Jones: She came to me in 1951, that’s 27 years ago, isn’t it?
Crowd: Low crowd noise.
Woman in crowd: 28 years.
Jones: 28 years ago, yeah, that’s right, that’s right. That’s right. When it began. I’m sorry. (Pause) That’s a long time to be with a fighter. (Pause) I tried America, from one coast to the other, took you around every city, and I saw they, every goddamn one of them, was the same. If I coulda found one better than San Francisco, I’da taken you to it. (Pause) ‘Cause I woulda liked to struggle there, but we didn’t have a chance to win no revolution there. (Pause) All we had a chance was to see our children and old people be tortured. (Pause) And I didn’t see that was any point. Here, we can, we can die on our own terms.
Jones: I said, we can die on our own terms.
Jones: That’s what Jesus said. (Turns into preacher’s tone) No man, no man, no man shall take my life. I will lay it down. That’s what he said. He meant he’d lay it down when he got ready. Some of these Christians don’t understand this. We’re more Christian than they ever could be. Paul said, it’s all right to give your body to be burned, but be sure you got charity, which means principle. What is pure love? Communism. So in other words, Paul was saying, give your body to be burned. Send a fire if ‘sary, if necessary, to get a revolutionary message, but be sure you’ve got communism in your heart. Right? That’s what would be charity today.
Jones: Can’t have any charity without communism.
Jones: So this is nothing new, giving your body, going out and committing suicide, taking a few enemies with you. (Pause) Thirty-two minutes till press time. (Pause) Let me see that last copy of that prelude that I gave you.
End of side 1.
Jones: What’d we just get through? What’d I say about sex (radio interference)?
Stanley Clayton: You said you wanted us to write, write it up for you about sex.
Jones: (Shouts) So I will know about sex?
Stanley: No, no—
Jones: So the maestro of using revolutionary sex will know about it? Oh, come on now, Stanley, what’s— what— what went before that? (Long pause) (Low tone of disgust) You know what they say about abominable shits. You think of anything else I said about sex?
Stanley: (struggles for words) You also talked about sex (unintelligible)—
Jones: I talked about what? Speak up, Stanley, like you were bothering her for five hours, keeping her with your bullshit last night.
Stanley: Yes, Dad. Um. You was— you was telling us about sex um, how um, how you had to, to do it um, to save this cause, to save our— save our ass, and for eight, eight and a half hours, eight, seven (unintelligible) hours with um, different wom— different—
Jones: Don’t touch this, Stanley, I love you. I’ll still die out there fighting if they come— if they come after you. I’ll still be there, even though I’d jump on your ass, I’m trying to get you to grow. How you’d remember the eight and a half hours, or about the fucking, that— and that seems to be the most prominent thing in your mind? (Pause) Why’d you remember the eight and a half hours? (Pause) Why? (Pause) If you’re— if you’re concerned about hours, you could remember the sunup to sundown, that’s twelve hours. (Pause) Wh— Why? Why’d you remember the eight and a half hours? Just tell me, honestly. I won’t punish you. I’m going to be too busy fighting our enemies, not to war amongst our friends. Why’d you remember the eight and a half hours? That’s one that you come up with. Why’d that stick in your mind? (Pause)
Stanley: I just remember it.
Jones: You just remembered it. You are a socialist. You’re supposed to know why you remember things, why you think the way you think. You’re supposed to know everything you can know about yourself. When uh, somebody comes by to me that I don’t know, never met, and they irritate me, I stop to analyze, why don’t I? Often I’ll find they remind me of somebody I once knew. (Pause) (Unintelligible word) Always. Always. Then you gotta fight through that, because that’s prejudice. (Pause) (Lecturing) You should know yourself better than that. You tell me you just thought, you just remember. There’s more than that. (Pause) Why you remembered eight and a half hours? I’m sure there’s more than that.
Stanley: Yes, Dad. I’m— (Pause) (struggles for words) I remembered, you know, that much, eight, you know, seven and a half hours, ‘cause, you know, for me to be, well, for me to be, you know, um, a two-minute driver, you know, eight ho— eight hours would probably be more I would be try— striving for.
Jones: Probably be more than you’re striving for?
Stanley: For being more or less—
Jones: You’d have to be a maniac to strive for it, unless you were trying to help a revolution. (Pause)
Stanley: That’s true, Dad.
Jones: Amazing— Amazing to me, son, that you can come out with that, that it’d be more than you were striving for. Obviously two minutes— you better not strive for seven and a half, eight hours (Pause) which was not eight and a half hours, by the way, it was seven and a half to eight hours on that session. I remember every painful minute of this shit.
Stanley: Yes, Dad.
Jones: Why would you want to be striving for eight hour fuck? (Pause) You think your dick would hold up for eight hours?
Stanley: No, Dad.
Jones: I can tell you it wouldn’t. Nobody’s does. (Pause)
Woman talks low.
Jones: Well, that’s the question. Whose idea— what’re the ideas?
Woman talks low.
Jones: (radio interference over question)
Woman talks low. Conversation of several moments with Jones too quiet for comprehension. Seems to be working on wording of statement.
Jones: I say, say here, that uh— but, even so, it would seem— but even so, it would seem— however, or however, however, it would seem that any person with any integrity —
Conversation continues away from mike.
Jones: You can always trip yourself up in strategy. (Pause) Now, I know this one don’t uh— I’ve read through this one. “It’s not our purpose to die, as we breathe deeply the celebration of life. In the reverence and respect for all life, our community here in Guyana and the—” what is it, “in the reverence and respect for all life,” you be careful how they do that (radio interference) “here in Guyana with the six multi-rac— racial groups living in, in peace?” (Pause) “—desire to build” (unintelligible) “people who come to visit our project, teachers, workers, government officials from all walks of life in Guyana and USA.” (Quiet aside) —and other parts of the world. And other nations of the world. And many other nations, you know, we’ve had the British— Say, “and other nations— too many nations too numerous to mention.” (Pause) “Example of cooperative living” (reads under breath) “with us 35 educators which include (radio interference) “35 educators who happen to be the most outstanding” — (unintelligible name) tell me — “the most astand— outstanding students in Guyana in that, that state, in that region.”
Jones: They were picked, they were, they were picked, they were picked, in other words, they were picked uh, to, to bring them here. And they picked this place out because of all they had heard, of the beautiful achievements they’d heard. (Pause) And they didn’t have to give advance notice. We didn’t even know they were coming, um, ‘cause it’s, it’s commonly-known we don’t require that. We don’t— We don’t make any such requirement. (Pause) But, uh, to the, to the, to the people in Guyana. (Pause) (Short laugh) You want to qualify that, because they can use that to, anybody here in Guyana. (Pause) To our fellow Guy— yeah, to our fellow Guyanese. (Pause) In the local— (Pause) and then— (Pause) and (Pause) And— it’s com— it’s complicated, but if you don’t watch it, you open your goddamn door to bring any fucker in you want to.
Jones: They dropped in unannounced. They dropped— who came in unannounced? Who came in unannounced? That’s the safest thing. Just keep it there. That’s right. “Our medical department—” (Reads under breath for several moments).
Quiet conversation away from mike.
Jones: We have exactly 23 minutes (Pause) to the rehearsal time. (Pause) “…living wonderful productive choice in life free from the pitfalls of inner-city environments” (unintelligible) “they hope that people of conscience and good will in the United States will rise up in indignation about the attempts to destroy our community. We’re tired of people…” (Reads under breath) “…as you’ve seen right around you happen in the Bay Area.” There’s other groups than ourselves. (Pause) It’s right after— it’s right after “Cases brought down.” (Reads under breath) “…in decaying inner cities of America, decaying inner cities of advanced Western civilization” (Reads under breath) “…people come join us and build. And many”— And say, “Many who were not in desperate circumstances c— come to join us and build” (Pause) “because,” now this is the thing, “because of the beautiful environment, ideal weather, and uh, the scenic, uh the scenic environment and the challenge to serve.” But be sure to put the ideal climate— (Reads under breath) “The vast majority of our members that would like to live in the United States but who are in Guyana are perfectly free to do so.” Yes. (Reads under breath) “…if necessary with our lives.” (Pause) “And obviously, if it was necessary, with our lives. As Patrick Henry said, ‘Give me liberty or give me death.’”
Conversation off mike.
Jones: Yeah, but it’s a fuckin’ strong word.
Conversation off mike.
Jones: It’s possible. (Pause) The statement of death, though, may be the only thing that gets printed, that’s the only thing that bothers me.
Woman: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jones: I’m uh— debate this, because I would tend to lean his way.
Conversation off mike.
Jones: (Reads under breath)
Man off mike: Chop that off— “…Jones’ group willing to die.”
Conversation off mike for several minutes, working on draft wording.
Jones: There ain’t nothing we can do about it anyway, any court case we got now, it’s too late— (Pause) By your own courts. We can give you documented cases or rehabilitated lives, we’ve been studied by local authorities who came from your own— who were sent here by your own courts.
Conversation off mike.
Jones: Shift, please.
Conversation off mike.
Jones: I don’t know who can read— Who is the best reader in your opinion in the place?
Woman off mike: I think we should use somebody who’s used to radio.
Jones: Or somebody used to radio.
Another woman: Have to be familiar with this—
Jones: Uh, I’m the best, uh, experienced, but no, my voice not — (Radio interference) You have to take direction from me, every step of the way. They have to be accustomed to me on the radio.
Woman: — would be different? Carolyn [Moore Layton]?
Jones: Lee Ingraham. I think there’s a point.
Jones: Well, see what he does, see what he does. He’s got a little time, ah, ‘cause I think it’d be nice, saying, here’s one of our b—
Man: I’ll do it.
Jones: A black brother, a professor— It’d be nice if a professor did it, eh, Professor [Richard] Tropp. I am Profes— I’m ah— (stumbles for words). Well, here, you could be professor. “I am Professor Tropp, teaching here in the school system.” (Pause) That’s good. See— See how he does with it, see how he does it. Try him. (Pause) [Lee] Ingram is good, but uh, your title would sound impressive. (Pause) All right, I’ll leave you for a moment to your own discussions, but uh, uh, what else is it, what is it, what is it, Comrade [Arlander] Cole, you’re senior and we won’t hold you there.
Cole: I understand you say I was plot to leave you (unintelligible word)?
Crowd murmurs in reaction
Jones: Did I understand, uh, that you want to discuss with me? After—
Cole: Dad, did I—
Jones: You’re a senior. I love you. You— Why don’t you quit while you’re ahead?
Crowd: That’s right.
Jones: You got no problem. You got no problem. You’re not going anywhere, are you? Are you? You’re not going anywhere, are you, comrade? (more incredulous) You’re not going anywhere, are you?
Man in crowd: I’m not saying (unintelligible word)
Jones: Okay, well then what’s every— what’s the point of you tel— getting up here talking about that? We’re not talking about that.
Voice in crowd too low.
Jones: What’s that?
Voice in crowd too low.
Jones: You misunderstood. Thank you. You may be— That’s fine. (Pause) It isn’t important what you understand, it’s what impor— important what I understand. (Pause) Somebody put that in your note, too, to see what you got out of that. (Pause) Okay, you got an eight and a half— I— seven and a half hour, or whatever, stupid shit, fuck. Now, what else did you get out of it?
Stanley: Um, I also got uh—
Jones: Now I’ll bet you there’d be, uh, 80% of the males who’d stand up who’d have the same goddamn difficulty with you. And a host of the females. I— I don’t know, it’d be almost neck and neck. (Pause)
Stanley: You talked— you talked about um, how um (Pause) um, time that when you was (unintelligible word) and she had to do this in two hours. I can’t— (Pause) I can’t remember her name (unintelligible word)—
Jones: You can’t remember—
Stanley: I can’t recall her name, uh—
Stanley: — Grace. Where you had—
Jones: Well, I think you know about Grace, in that we’ve been over this about 84 times in all these White Nights.
Stanley: Yes, Dad. (Pause) I— I— I know of ah—
Jones: What’s the matter?
Woman in crowd, voice too far away.
Jones: Who’s doing the talking? (Directing) Security, you will stop this. (Pause) And I have to get more security on the floor, we have two people not enough anyway. I can tell you, it’s not enough. (Pause) People don’t be good because Father’s good. They’re good because of learning. Psychological boxes. (Pause) Oh, shit. Tell me why you were attracted to him, he don’t know, he don’t know what’s going on. (Struggles for words) Whatever got you attracted to him, him in the first place?
Janice: It’s too (words overrun)
Jones: Well, that’s what I’d do, I’d tell the sister to lose some weight and go after him. You’re a nice looking woman. All you need is just to lose a little weight, and you’ll be just right. I mean, Dr. Schacht might be interested. Maybe. All this shit he’s seen. Maybe.
Janice: (Stumbles for words) I don’t think— I’m not worth it, that’s all — (radio interference)
Jones: (radio interference)
Janice: I mean, I feel that I’m not even worth, you know, having a relationship with Dr. Schacht, I mean, because—
Jones: You’re not worth of having a relationship with Dr. Schacht?
Janice: I mean, I’m not— I— I mean (radio interference) I just feel that I don’t—
Jones: Now that— Now that’s what’s got you into trouble. Why in the hell would you think you’re not worth a relationship? A b— A black woman, trained from a ba— a good training, a background, education, culture, a beautiful woman physically? Why would you not feel— Is this what you women do to yourself?
Woman in crowd: Yes, that’s a lot of women, yes. (voice too soft) They pick, pick, pick at—
Jones: You think you’re no good, so you pick some sonofabitch that you don’t think’s worth a shit?
Woman in crowd: Exactly.
Voices in crowd too soft.
Male voice off mike too soft. Mike cuts off for 15 seconds.
Jones: Wha— what— what was your interest— Why— why— why did you get interested in him? (Pause)
Janice: In Stanley? (Pause) Um. One reason was—
Jones: Shift, please. (Pause) (Unintelligible)
Janice: The main —
Jones: Stretch. (Pause) Wait, honey. (Pause) (Quiet voice) Lord Jesus have mercy. (Pause) You have to go with the radio room, [Gene] Chaikin, when we get started. (Sighs) I dread that like a passion. (Normal voice) Whoever feels confident? You think I feel confident to go in there and handle all that bunch of jackals?
Crowd: (Murmurs) No.
Jones: — those snakes, those white people on that press? It’s when you do a good job, when you don’t feel good about yourself. If you feel good about yourself, you’ll make many errors, and then you’ll make errors, when you feel no good about yourself. (Pause) The job’s be done, I gotta do it. (Pause) But what— what reason did you get attracted to him for?
Janice: For— for this rea— this reason um, yes, it was about two weeks. Um. First of all, because he was, you know, he was black and he was going to college, make some kind of college out of Oakland and he was, you know, we just—
Jones: He was going to college?
Janice: Some kind—
Jones: Now that’s a shame, man, if he was going to college—
Janice: I don’t know what kind of college—
Jones: That’s a shame if you were going to college and haven’t gotten any more out of the news than you have.
Janice: I don’t know what kind of college it was, but he was having some kind of economic class—
Jones: He was?
Janice: He used to talk a lot about that. I don’t know— But, I mean, that’s my reason, and I— I realize—
Jones: What did he talk about? What— He talked about economics to you?
Janice: Yes. The first two weeks, before I even started going with him—
Jones: He talked about economics? What’d he tell you about economics?
Janice: He was talking about um these— somebod— some people in his class that um, they, you know, was trying— you know, they was interested in capitalism, I mean, they were believing the capitalist system would work, and all this, and he was saying, that it only (radio interference) was socialism (radio interference)
Jones: That the end? That’s as far as that went?
Janice: Yes, Dad.
Jones: (Laughs) He got that from the pulpit in San Francisco.
Crowd: (Laughs) Right.
Jones: I repeated that about eight million times.
Janice: Mmm. (Laughs) It was— it was some kind of college—
Jones: What college did you go to, Stanley?
Stanley: I was going to (unintelligible name) college, junior college.
Jones: How many— How— How long did you go to it, son?
Stanley: Well, I— I didn’t go very long with it.
Jones: Aw, when I said how long, don’t start no bullshit with me. How long? One day? Two days? Three weeks?
Stanley: Um. More or less like, two, two or three weeks.
Jones: That’s what I thought. (Pause) Just cute dumb ass bitches. You are (unintelligible) (Laughs). They lie so easy, they (Laughs). Three week college course, now that’s too, that’s too much. (Pause) You’re pretty, and you’re pretty and you’re smart, but you— When a man comes along, you— (laughs) All your brains go to your vagina, too, I figured it.
Calls from crowd. General hubbub.
Jones: Johnny? Johnny Brown? Jones? That’s why I said (unintelligible) because we got two Johnnies now. Three. I got three Johnnies (Pause) Where’s Johnny Jones? Is he— is he— (Pause) Johnny Jones, Sr., please? We’ll all hold it here till he— Okay now. What in the hell were we talking about?
Man in crowd: Why she was attracted to him. Obviously—
Jones: While a White Night is roaring, we’re talking about three week college course and a two-minute fuck.
Jones: If you thought you had a sex drive, I’m sure this will take of it, if you’ve been listening tonight.
Crowd: Scattered laughter. One woman says, Yes.
Jones: Listen, I can tell you one thing. This old man likes to fuck, and I wish I could fuck right now, in spite of death. I feel guilty about that. I’d like to get away from this shit. But end of the day, anybody that can keep me up five hours for a two-minute fuck, they’d have to— they’d have to tie me.
Tape cuts off for several moments.
Schacht: I want to apologize to Dad because um— I want to apologize to Dad for letting my, my uh mind get into this frame of m— just to get into it, and um, I uh— (Pause) Well, I want— I just feel I— I feel guilty for taking up this time like this, I feel um— (Pause) I think if we give— if we gave Dad more rest, then he could do what he needs to do, he could strategize and do a lot more. And again, I feel guilty standing here and, and uh being partly responsible for this.
Woman in crowd: Thank you Dad.
Tape cuts off for several seconds.
Unidentifiable voice: You know—
Male: (Heavy breathing, like having finished running) I’ve been in the radio room, but I still been listening, and as far as I’m concerned, Larry, um— and you know in your particular case, you know, everyone has to deal with their guilt and so forth, but I, I think a, a lot of this guilt is misdirected. I don’t think, you know, um, you, you still have to look at that, where you are, but I don’t think it’s a lot of your problem, I think it’s with uh, with you, because I— I— I talked to you in Los Angeles, and you had a similar run-in with this big head fool in Los Angeles, and I wanted to kick your ass in San Francisco, and Mother kept me from doing it, because of this same kind of cocky-ass bullshit, could nobody tell you anything, we couldn’t even talk to you nice, you’re a tough-ass guy, but you’re nothing but a poop-butt punk.
Male: That’s all you are. You know. And— and— but we— we tried to explain to you what Stanley was, and he talked about— I— I heard it, something about going to sch— school, and he can— all he knows is nickel-and-dime bullshit. That’s the only economics he knows. (Pause) And— and— and you know— and for you— I’m just— I’m— I am really— I am really surprised. For you to be so smart, but to act so stupid. And if you can’t— if you couldn’t see through his stuff, you know, he— talking— talking that goopygop to you and you still fell for it. And you know— and you only had to be around here just a little bit— you didn’t have to— just be around Dad just a little bit to know that, and you still— you still act like a— a— a weak-kneed, uh, mealy-mouthed little old girl. (Pause) And you— you— you won’t— and he— he’s not going to grow up. You want him to grow up— if you want this, that’s— that’s— that’s your business. (Pause) But if you want him, you should make something out of him, ‘cause the only time— only time brothers are anything is when sisters make something out of them. Uh, and you brothers are a bunch of chumps for not saying it, because you know it’s true.
Crowd: That’s right.
Crowd: Low conversation.
Male in crowd: (Cries out) Four minutes.
Jones: (away from mike) I’ll come back and take it over afterward, I’m not (voice trails off)
Male: So what do you have to say, I mean you know, it’s—
Jones: (away from mike) — guard down, I want this shit stopped.
Janice: What— what I have for to say is that there is no way I can change him, the only person that can change him is Dad, and that it was all my fault all this shit got started. If I wasn’t so um, so weak and so um, stupid-ass, this— none of this trouble would have started in the first place, when I been— (Pause) No, I am— I ju— I just saying it’s my fault that all this trouble was creat— was started, because I wasn’t strong enough. I was stupid enough to believe all this shit and thinking I could do something, help him out, and there’s no way that he can grow, ‘cause I can’t do nothing for him. Only Dad can do it.
Murmurs in crowd.
Male: And you know what— you know what— I had an experience yesterday, and um, you know, that puts a lot of burden on Dad, just what you said, because that means that Jim Jones can’t die now, ‘cause he has to save the likes of that asshole.
Male: If you— if you can understand what I’m saying. You’re saying Dad’s the only one that can change Stanley. I unders— you know— what— think about what you say before you say it, because if you do that kind of stuff, then he’ll be— he’ll won’t ever accept his responsibility in this.
Crowd: That’s right.
Male: Because he always— Stanley always tells us the same old stuff about how he’s going to change, and about, about he really don’t understand, and uh—
Voice in crowd: — can’t hear.
Male: He— oh, I know he can hear. He— he can— he can hear how to get in somebody’s drawers.
Crowd: That’s right.
Male: So I know he can hear. (Pause) So what do you got to say, Stanley? And you know, I’m gonna tell you something too, I really don’t appreciate this, ‘cause Dad talked the other day, and you’re a stupid ass, too, I want to tell you this, too. Dad talked the other day about, don’t put pressure on him. Don’t put pressure on him, and this kind of st— thing kills him.
Scattered voices in crowd: That’s right.
Male: And then, for you to take the liberty to do that, (Pause) you ought to really look at yourself. And for you, Stanley, to take— to take the liberty, you ought to really look at yourself. Dying— killing you is too good for you, Stanley. (Pause) To kill you would be too good for you (Pause) ‘cause you wouldn’t have to bear any responsibility or any guilt. And to keep us going, you know I—
End of tape.
Tape originally posted February 1999