Q668 Transcript

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.

To return to the Tape Index, click here.
To read the Tape Summary, click here. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1, Pt. 2).

(Note: This tape was one of the 53 tapes initially withheld from public disclosure.)

(Note: The voices on this tape are so similar and are spoken so rapidly, the transcriber couldn’t differentiate among most of them with any consistency. Therefore, each new paragraph indicates a new speaker, but little more than that.)

Part 1

Okay, who’s going to start off the first this message?

Uh, Dick—

(tape off for several moments)

—the money, and they should— they should have tried more harder. I think that they’re just lazy, and they do not try to get money to do any work.

And socialism is better, ‘cause they know how to do all that. They go to school and be able to work out in the fields, they know how to do everything. They know— They know how to fix— They know how to fix cars and trucks, and— In socialism, it is better than capitalism, ‘cause we think about the children and the seniors, and what we’d do if there’s a revolution. We fight and stand up for our rights.

And— and, and um, (sighs) and in capitalism— in cla— in capitalism, there’s uh, the seniors, they get to go on wel— welfare and they get to retire in— in the senior citizens’ homes, and in um, socialism, they have to work out in the fields in the hot, and— and— and— and in— in capitalism, the children, they— they get to have their own private schools at their own houses, and they can— (tape cut off)

(tape off for brief moment)

Well, socialism is— is— it’s fun to work out in the fi— fields, ‘cause in capitalism, they teach you (laughs)—

(makes shooting noises)

In capitalism, they teach you it’s bad to work out in the fields, and it’s really good for you. You live a lot longer, and it’s better for your health, and also um, (Pause, laughs) it’s no fun to be in a senior citizens’ home, because (laughs) because um, they don’t tre— treat— they don’t treat ‘em right. They don’t— Like in socialism, they— they take care of them, they check on them daily, and they make sure everything’s all right.

(tape edit)

(Unintelligible as mike moves)

And I think capitalism is full of shit. (Laughs)

No, no, no. I don’t agree.

All I say (laughs, children move in background) I personalal— personalalal— personalal— personal posi— posi— opinion of capitalism is—

(Children laugh)

—is that capitalism is better—



—because we get to go down, walk down to the corner, we can buy—

Yay for Robert [Johnson]—

We can buy a— a— a penny candy bar for twenty-five dollars, and— and we can— we can have— we can— you just walk down to the corner and get an orange. You guys have to pick ‘em. We just walk down to the corner, buy us an orange for twenty-five cents, plus tax, twenty-five dollars, and we get—


And we’re even able— I think— I think— I think— like we have more material possessions, like we can walk down to the store, we can buy a new pair of shoes and—

—and when you walk down the street, you— you’re afraid, ‘cause you might get shot out by a bunch of gangs that always go around, making money— trying to get money from breaking into houses and stuff— but here— but in socialism, we can— we can— we can— we can walk down the street at night, real late at night, and we won’t even be worried, so (blows raspberry) on your capitalism and all your goddamn money.

You know what— I have— I have— (Pause) I think that you’re— you’re— you’re— you’re going down to the middle of the store, it’s stupid, ‘cause you have to waste all your money that you worked for, just to buy a stupid piece of yucky candy. It ain’t good for you anyway. But here, we can— get— just make candy, and it just cost us not that much money. We won’t— we won’t have to buy it at all, because the government pays for it here, so we don’t have to worry about that junk.

(Mike moves)

Um— Um— (clears throat) In capitalism, uh— you— you say, and our chocolate and stuff is junk, but our chocolate, it helps us get money, ‘cause we send it to starving babies and uh, and— and all the— and— and— and we have— we had— we even have signs up and— and— and stuff that even say that we help save um, you know on those cigarette packages, they even say uh, don’t smoke, and— because it gives you cancer, that’s how concerned we are about our people, and we have warehouse and warehouses full of bombs that can blow up the whole world three times over and over again, so I think we’re— we’re more— we like— we’re— we care for our people more than socialism, and— and we— we—

If you cared for ‘em, you wouldn’t— you wouldn’t make the cigarettes to sell ‘em. (Laughs) And you wouldn’t—

No, no, no— Yeah, and— and— and your whole system is based on money, and our system is based on the people, so you’re all worried about getting all your money, and we’re all worried about making it better for the people.

Yeah, and you wouldn’t make bombs to hurt people anyway.

I think— See, you guy say that we get— we have to worry about walking down the street. It’s only— only those— those— those thugs— those high school dropouts that are too lazy to get their own job, they have to rob from other people, but I don’t have to worry about it. I have— I have my— I have my own bodyguards.

(tape moves)

Well, you have your own bodyguards, but in socialism, we ain’t got to have bodyguards. We can— We can go pick off the trees of our own land. We don’t have to buy like twenty-five dollars, and things like that. And you can walk down the street with tailored suits and everything, but in socialism, everybody— one have one thing (unintelligible word), because everything is in equality.

Right on, brother, right on, right—

Okay, yeah, but you all have to plant it and do (unintelligible word)— We— we— we can— we can pay people to do it. We ain’t got to do it. And we have security guards that’ll protect us, we got big ol’ mansions we can live in, we can stay in, they’re nice, while y’all are living in damp ol’ yucky places, and y’all have the same looking houses and everything, but we have it better. And— and—

We don’t have to buy anything. We can get it out of the jungle. We can make it by ourself and not use no money. It’s like you said, you said you’re at— you had to buy them— your— your shoes, well, we can make our own shoes, thank you.

(Blows raspberry)

Okay. Um. And— and— and— and— and in capitalism— another thing that makes capitalim bet— capitalism better is because you— you say you can go there and pick your food off your trees and your— and you— and you can— you— everybody lives as one, but in— in our— in our country—

(tape silence for brief moment)

—uh— what’s those— what’s those thing in the ghettoes, where they all get to live together, and— and— and— and— and— and— and— and we— we send uh, food down there for them and stuff, you know, free food and stuff, but in— in socialism, they have to go out there and pick their food and— and— and— and— and in capitalism, it’s— it’s just plain old better, that’s what I think.

How come— then how come here, where none of us are starving, we’re all healthy, and in the ghettoes, their— their heads are getting real big and their stomachs are getting very skinny and knobby knees, and they’re not even healthy at all. No uh, hospitals, no food or anything.

Because— Because the reason why that is, because they’re damn sick and tired of buying food from us.

I think— I think that— You say you can make your own shoes. I’d like to know what you make your shoes out of.

(Laughs) We have rubber trees here.

Have you ever— Have you ever processed your own rubber before?

We have a lot of people here and— and—

We work together—

We can get all our minds together and—

(Two children talk over each other, unintelligible, the laughter)

We can make factories like the capitalists do, but use them for the people instead of for the rich people.

Have you ever done it before?

(Two children talk over each other, unintelligible, the laughter)

We don’t need to. We don’t just sit around in our office getting fatter and fatter. We stay healthy, thank you.

We’re healthy, too.

(Children talk over each other)

That doesn’t— That doesn’t answer my question. I asked, have you ever done it before? Have you ever made your own shoes?

Yes, I have, thank you.

Out of what? Tell me how—


Um— not every— not everyone has to make their own shoes, because everyone has different talents. We have shoemakers who make (unintelligible under laughter)— And they make it for all of us.

But listen, listen—

We have uh, pastrymakers that have talents of the extraordinary talents, and they make our (unintelligible under interruption)

Then you buy that old crusty ass stuff, that stays in the pastry box for (tape edit)—

I think capitalism is better, because we have— we get jobs for people.

All right, yeah. We have jobs for people, and— Every day, people are getting jobs, and they have places to live.

In— in capitalism, you have a lot of— lot of unemployment and poor people, and inequality, but in socialism, we don’t have any of that. Everyone gets what they need.

Yeah, but— but in— in our capitalist state, like in Fillmore Street in San Francisco, 983, um, we— um, in that bakery store, uh, we uh— that— we get— you get to own your own store, and you get to take as much um, uh, things home as you want, and you— and you can eat as much as you want, and that’s the only reason we’re up— we’re uh, up fat in our offices, is because we get to eat as much as we want. We don’t have to worry about if we get— if we don’t—

(Children talk over each other)

—If you’re sick, that you can’t go out and pick something for your food, and you sit in your big office, and you can always eat.

Okay, if that’s true, why do you have them preachers and all that, stealing from the people, taking they money, and if they do get sick, they ain’t got to go get it, ‘cause we got workers as qualified, they know how to, you know, grow trees, and know how to process the fruit and, you know, you can put it in the store where you can buy it, and it don’t cost twenty-nine or forty-five thousand dollars, and things like that.


(sound of engine)

Go ahead, Larry. (Pause) Go ahead, Larry.

(children talk over each other)

In socialism, pregnant women have to work out in the field.


It’s healthy for them, because it makes the baby stronger all through their life. Thank you.

(Stumbles over opening words) You see, if— uh, you know, they have morning sickness and things, they’re pregnant ladies, and they can sit back, and they can have all the luxuries, and they can sit back and comb their hair, and— and um— and, you know, and— and— and— and it’s just— just better in capitalism, I think, is because you get to do your own thing, and you can smoke your dope if you want to smoke dope, and you can— you can just—

And you destroy your mind too. And besides, um—

(Children talk over each other)

What about your women? Our women, um, um— the women here in um, in socialist countries, they have to have equal just as much as the men and the children. What about your women? They get so depressed back there. Tell me about your women.

(Children talk over each other)

Well, like— I can’t think of— I cannot think of nothing.

Oh, come on. Our women— Our women have the best medical care. They can go to the best hospitals, they can go anywhere they want, and also—

If they’re rich—

No— A lot of people can. Um—

If they’re rich

I keep forgetting what I’m going to say.

(Children talk and laugh over each other)

Well, but listen— But listen—

But listen— Don’t look, but, in capitalism, in capitalism, you can’t— you ain’t got no more bet— medical care than old shabby damn dog. He get better medical care than your people—

(Tape edit, tape turned off for several minutes, underlying tape plays)


Part 2

Man: I’ve been in rebellion all my life. I’ve always done exactly what I wanted to do. Just when I wanted. I’ve been in rebellion all my life. I’ve always done exactly what I wanted to do. Just when I wanted. Never any more, perhaps less sometimes, but never any more. And this explains why I was in jail. Man was born free, but everywhere, he’s in chains. I never adjusted. I haven’t adjusted even yet. But half my life already in prison. The first time I was put in prison, it was just like dying. Just to exist at all called for some heavy psychic adjustment. (Repeats message) I’ve been in rebellion all my life. I’ve always done exactly what I wanted to do. Just when I wanted. No more. (tape silence for few seconds) —more. Which explains why I’ve been jailed. Man was born free, but everywhere, he’s in chains. I never adjusted. I haven’t adjusted even yet. But half my life already in prison. The first time I was put in prison, it was just like dying. Just to exist at all called for some heavy psychic adjustment.

The turning point in my life came when I met Marx, Mao, and Lenin, and they redeemed me. What I saw and what I wanted, the central passion of my life, was war. The revolutionary war of the people against the oppressor, a war which grows out of perfect love and perfect hate. (pause) I have surrendered all hope of happiness for myself in this life, to the prospect of effecting some improvement in our circumstances as a whole. I have a plan. I will give and give of myself, until it proves our making, or my end. I am convinced that any serious organizing of the people must carry with it from the start a potential threat of revolutionary violence.


Part 1 (resumed)

—guess who’s killed millions of people. How come—


Part 2 (resumed)

Man: —yeah, man. It’s the day before yesterday’s paper, though, but you know, in here, it’s the best we can do.


Part 1 (resumed)

—are all crowded, then?

Okay, the reason why they get—


Part 2 (resumed)

Man: (unintelligible word). I’ve been arrested, interrogated or investigated more times than I care to count. I’ve been in more prisons than I care to talk about.

(tape silence for several moments, part 2 continues too low for comprehension.)

Man: I’ve been arrested, interrogated or investigated more times than I care to talk about. I’ve been in more prisons than I care to count. Paso Robles Youth Prison. San Quentin. Soledad Prison. The noise, the madness, screaming from every throat. Frustrated sounds from the bars, metallic sounds from the walls, their iron beds bolted to the walls, the cast iron sinks and toilets, the smells. Human waste thrown at us, unwashed bodies, and rotten-ass food. When a white con leaves here, he’s ruined for life. But no black ever leaves (unintelligible word or name) walking. He either leaves crawling in the meat wagon, or he leaves crawling, licking at the pig’s feet.


Part 1 (resumed)

—when the cars come by, and I could get down in a little hole right—

No, we have— No, we have— No, we—


Part 2 (resumed)

Man: Thinking and reading won’t fill a 24-hour day. I have something real deep running through me. (Pause) (short laugh) Thinking and reading won’t fill a 24-hour day. I have something real deep running through me. A burning thing of the mind. I’ve observed myself pass through a state of anger over something that happened as far away as South Africa, or your Union of South Africa. Then I didn’t sleep for two days (unintelligible as mike moves)— Thinking and reading won’t fill a 24-hour day. I have something real deep running through me. A burning thing of the mind. I’ve observed myself pass into a state of anger over something that happened as far away as South Africa. (Pause) And I didn’t sleep for two days, when those women and children were being burned down there in that part of the world last week. (Pause) And I’ve told myself uncountable times, that anger is an emotion, a degenerative emotion, unnecessary and controllable. But I couldn’t control it, until a few days ago, when I observed myself— (Pause) when I observed myself being consumed by the force of my own hate. (Pause)


Part 1 (resumed)

Another thing about capitalism. There’s another thing—

(Children talk over each other)

One thing I’ve also noticed is uh, the capitalist side has left you all by yourself to do—

(Children talk over each other)

I can express my points and what I think. I’m— I think the way everybody else thinks.

(Children talk over each other)

We’re doing our own thing. We’re anarchists.

Okay. Okay. And uh, in capitalism, we feel that we’re— we feel that we’re all— all uh— we’re all superior, and we’re bourgeoisie, and we— and— and we can— and we— you know—

(tape silence for several moments, Part 2 continues too low for comprehension.)

(Children talk over each other)

—Oh, this jelly bomb, we have all kinds of Vietnam bo— uh, we have all kinds of bombs that kill people and maker them suffer. If they suffer, they won’t come back and fight with us no more.

(Children laugh)

Then how come— If— If you’re so concerned about having people killed, how come you made it to kill us too.

We don’t. We sto— We— We made it just to protect ourselves, so you wouldn’t, um, try to blow us up.

So did we.

(Children talk over each other)

You dropped— We dropped— You dropped that satellite on us, and you’re trying to start a nuclear war, and you know you are.

I’m— I’m sorry, sir, but uh, that was not— that was not on purpose—

(unintelligible sentence) —shitty satellites, and you know you do, so what you should do is just take them out of the air, and just—

(Children talk over each other)

What are your satellites for? They’re just to kill us.

(Children talk over each other)

We got more than you.

It doesn’t matter. There’s probably about 4000 up there, and— and— and if they drop—

Half of them are yours—

Yeah (unintelligible under interruption), but you dropped it in Canada, where it’s gonna— and it already has murdered um, people—

How many Vietnamese have you killed? How many Chinese have you killed?

It’s not— It’s not our fault. It’s— You guys dropped that thing in Canada in an unpopulated area, and you guys—

That’s right, we directed it out, so it wouldn’t hurt any people.

(Children talk over each other)

—You can’t even— not even steer the damn stuff.

We steered the thing to a unpopulated area, and you steered your goddamn atom— atom bombs right into Hiroshima and Nagysaki, where it killed millions of Vietnamese and people—

(Children talk over each other)

Well, they attacked our Pearl Harbor— They attacked our Pearl Harbor. They— They shot all those innocent men. And people say that we knew about it— People say that we knew about it—

Your president did—

Yeah— Yeah, but uh, we didn’t stop it, because we wanted to fight—

(Children laugh and talk over each other)

You wanted to fight to kill people.

We did it by accident.

(Children talk over each other)

What about the Indian?

The Indians fought it—

(Children talk over each other)

—so you can have the land, when it was their land. You took it from them.

We had to build the United States, ‘cause the United States could be a country that can— that can build more— and that more people can come. The reason why we slaughtered the Indians—

Why’d you kill them, then?

Why couldn’t you share with the Indians?

The reason why we slaughtered the Indians was—

(Adult shushes hubbub)

Why couldn’t you share it with the Indians?

Be— Because they didn’t want to share with us. They wanted to kill us all, so we decided we’d kill them.

How come they brought— How come they brought so many white flags out, like Chief Joseph did, he brought out a white flag, and you just shot him up to pieces, you tore his tribe up.

Don’t make us feel guilty, because—

Oh, we are, brother, you killed millions of people with your capitalist bourgeois.

Well, we tried to make friends, but they tried to chop our heads off with the hatchet. That you taught ‘em.

That’s bullshit. You taught ‘em that.

(Children talk over each other)

—in movies. I saw them—

What about the Mohawk?

They scalped us. They scalped us and everything, and— and— and, you know, that’s just—

You raped our women. You have (unintelligible word) them. You have did every kind of thing it— there is to do.

But we weren’t back there. We’re now today.

(Children laugh)

It still was them. It— what was his name, General what—

(Children talk over each other)

No, no, because—

General Custard, made out of mustard [General George Armstrong Custer].

Okay— okay— I— I— The Indians— We— Uh, the Indians, they tried— they— they fought for their land and they—

Okay. Okay, you’re here now, and there’s a lot of Indians that you’re putting in the ghettoes. Why don’t you— Why don’t you make them all equal with you guys?

Because— Why don’t we make them equal with us guys? Because they’re inferior. White is the best.

Why don’t you make them all equal with you guys?

Because we’ve already— We’ve already offered a place in Russia, we’ve already offered places in Guyana, we’ve already taken 900 people out of United States—

(Children talk over each other; adult shushes hubbub)

I’m sorry, but I thought all Russia was white. I’m sorry.

All of Russia isn’t. They got Asians there, they got— they got Russians—

Well, that’s white.

I’m sorry, Asians is not white—

(opening unintelligible) light-skinned.

They do not. What about you? You’re light-skinned. You said, white is beautiful.

I got a tan.

Oh, (blows raspberry)

(Children laugh)

How come I don’t see— How come I don’t see no Indians in— in China, and in Russia?

Because China is not that socialist. They’re nationalist.

(Children talk over each other)

You haven’t been there.

They’re communist. They’re communist.

How do you know? You’ve been there? Have you been there? Yeah.

Yeah, I’ve been there. I visited with President [Richard] Nixon.

(Children laugh)

Oh, is that why you killed all our women and children? And anyway, I’m a Indian, and I live in Russia, and I am black, just like I’m— you know, and I don’t get no tan.

(Children talk over each other)

Yeah, Guy— Guyana tan— Guyana is mostly black. I’m not black. I have a lighter skin, but what about that? What has United States done to help anyone else?

What has United States done to help anybody else? They um— They— They help the um— they uh-— in medical care, they have medical clinics, and— and— and—

For the rich—

—and they help Chile take over, uh, the coup ta— take over the socialist, ‘cause the socialists were starting to spread all over the countries—

(Children talk over each other)

—and if commu— communism takes over, they’ll eliminate all the capitalists, and— and eliminate all the capitalists, will not— they’ll be socialists all over the world, and we’ll not be able to do our own thing. So that’s one reason why we’re fighting.


Yeah. Yeah, and we have Disneyland and hot dogs and we have—

We have waterfalls— We don’t have sloppy hot dogs.

(Children talk over each other)

We have free waterfalls. We don’t have to pay seven dollars to get in one stupid Disneyland, we can go to any kind of lakes we want to. We can go to—

(Children talk over each other)

—jungle out of— out of material we have— we have it growing naturally.

(Children talk over each other)

But people like to work to have to pay for things. They like to pay for stuff. They like to work.

Yeah, what about us. We work for nothing. We work to get our— to get our food. We don’t have to work to get two dit— two dollars, so we can go out and buy a four-hundred dollar piece of candy.

How can you— How can you guys watch Tarzan, then, and Jane?

We don’t.

We don’t.


We can— We can be Tarzans and Janes here anytime we want to, because we live free.


All right. Your ride in Disneyland is unsafe. Unsafe. People are falling off your ride— People are burning up. People are being tortured when they go inside your funhouse. Things that’s real, and you don’t care about it. Things that’s real—

(Children talk over each other)

—Disneyland’s problem.

Well, they are your people. And like— like— like Creature Features, when a man has a hatchet and act like he going to chop you across here. Do they really do it? Yes.


Yeah— Yeah, you right. If I’da be their problem, but in socialism, that’s everyone’s problem.

(Children talk over each other)

What’s one person’s problem is everybody problem.

You guys are giving all this big debate, you guys, and— and we’re sitting back here, thinking of things to say to each other, but it isn’t really all that necessary, because you know that capitalism is better, and there’s no other— no other thing better than capitalism. You may have more— more doctors than— than uh— than United States in one town, then why is all the doctors in one part of the state? Why don’t you spread them all over, like—

(Children talk over each other)

Why don’t you? Why don’t you?

Because if we do—

‘Cause you won’t let us have ‘em—

All over the U— All over the United States there’s doctors—

(Children talk over each other)

We’re trying to cure cancer.

(Children talk over each other)

We’ve already cured cancer, because we’re more technologically advanced than you.

(Children talk over each other)

We spread our doctors to Guyana. We spread— We spread our troops to Angolia—

End of side 1


Side 2

(Children talk over each other)

And what about the bombs that you dropped—

I know. You’d want to get everything in there, and so you kept switching subjects, so don’t say we did, if you guys—

No, no, ‘cause you—

(Children talk over each other)

—free enterprises, and when we was over there talking, and you changed it—

We were trying to tell you why, and then you kept jumping from subject to subject.

I know, ‘cause— ‘cause anyway—

(Children talk over each other)

—not even on.

Yes, it is. We’re recording.

(Children mug for the tape recorder)

Yeah, it’s on.

Capitalism is better than socialism, because we have, you know, like, we can go on welfare, like the seniors, and get our welfare check, and you know, and then retire—

We care for our seniors. When they’re 65, they can go home, relax, and get money from the government.

(Children talk over each other)

See, that’s how you— that’s what you do to your seniors. You just use them until they’re 60. But we have— in our socialist countries, we have jobs to where they can be working while they’re 80 years old.

You make your seniors work? You make ‘em work when they’re 80?

They want to work. They’re so faithful in socialist countries, that they love work. Work is their life.

What do you do if they don’t want to work?

(Children talk over each other)

—What do you do to make them want to eat?

They get hungry. That’s how come they want to eat.

(Children talk over each other)

The reason why they wanted work, is because you guys make ‘em work. At 80 years of age, my goodness.

(Children talk over each other)

I’ve heard of child brutality, but senior brutality is something else.

(Children talk over each other)

Socialism— Socialism has ties— It taught ‘em, though, that they want to work. They want to work, no matter what happens, they love work. Work, work, work.

(Children talk over each other)

—you make them stick in the— you make ‘em work out in the fields, and they break their back, and—

No, they do paperwork.

(Children talk over each other)



What kind of paperwork?

What, they make paper? They— And chop down trees? You make ‘em chop down trees to make paper?

(Children talk over each other)

They— They like to write. They write, they write, they write, they write, they write—

What— What do you make them do to write? What do you make them do?

They write what— They write what we be talking about—

The reason why— The reason why is because, your country— what country are we talking about? Your country— Your country—

(Children talk over each other)

The reason why— The reason why you guys want your people to work in your country is because— because you— you— you oppress the women, women are oppressed, you don’t— you don’t give a damn if— I’m talking to a capitalist. I’m a socialist. You’re talking to a cap— You— You guys— All you guys— All—

(Children talk over each other)

They oppress the woman, and they don’t give a damn about ‘em, they put ‘em down even in the Bible, you know, Adam and Eve and all that? And they don’t even give a damn about people. So I say, shit—

(unintelligible word) wrote that in the Middle East—

(Children talk over each other)

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I— I did not write the Bible. I’m Jewish. I did not— I didn’t have anything to do with it. I wasn’t even born then. What do you mean, I didn’t write the Bible? I had nothing to do with the Bible.

Okay, you’re Jewish, right? What about all the Jews that were murdered? Seven thousand Jews.

What— Yeah, what about the Interpol and Nazis—

(Children talk over each other)

—free. I have no— I am in no danger of that, because I’m in the United States.

(Children talk over each other)

That ain’t— That ain’t our fault. They got in the way—

(Children talk over each other)

I don’t have to work till I’m 80.

(Children talk over each other)

I’m doing a good job. I’ve got a s— I’ve got a very nice store, I’ve got a nice house, couple of cars, a swimming pool, I’m doing all right.

(Children talk over each other)

Yes we are. Yes we are. Yes we are, ‘cause we talked to the President. We dropped our bombs, because we was trying to get some animals, and didn’t nobody to tell them to get in the way.

(Children talk over each other)

(Unintelligible name, said twice), go back to the main subject.

What about the long drop— What about if the bomb drops on you, are you going to be liking your swimming pool and your car?

No, I have built a shelter under my house, and I can always go in there and be safe.

Because (unintelligible word under interruption)— Because— Yeah, damn, because uh, uh, already, um, one of our nuclear satellites have got out of co— control and went into—

One of yours?

Yes, one of ours.

(Children talk over each other)

—satellites, because your satellites tried to cross the (unintelligible word under interruption) to get our information.

(Children talk over each other)

Well, ours seem to be still up there.

(Children talk over each other)

Your satellite crosses our satellite— Your satellite crosses our satellite, and you don’t give a damn. You tried to find out our code, and now—

(Children talk over each other)

Well, why are you being so secretive? It seems to me— It seems to me that our satellites are still up there, and yours is the one with the radiation that’s down here.

Because yours crossed—

(Children talk over each other)

—cross-section, nothing would have happened to yours.

You can’t— You can’t even make your goddamn satellites stay up there.

(Children talk over each other)

No, because we want to check out the moon and minerals, to see if it can help society.

Yeah, minerals to kill people, too.

Well, we’re— we’re just starting. We’re just starting.

(Children talk over each other)

I see no babies on the moon starving.

Well, they’re on the earth starving.

Well, we’re trying to get minerals so that we can make things—

Trying. You ain’t got it yet.

(Children talk over each other)

What— what do you do? Give them shots so they can look plump and fat. No, because—

(unintelligible under previous child) — because we gets them food, and they can go out and work in the lush fields.

You make the babies work in the field? That’s child labor.

Babies love work. Work, work abundantly.

What? You mean you force your babies to go out in the fields and work?

(Children talk over each other)

How come in your minds, your— your ki— uh, your little uh, kids, thirteen, fourteen year old have black lung and died, from getting blown with their—

(Children talk over each other)

Well, I’m sure there’s children in your society that’re uh— have handicaps, too, and don’t say there aren’t, because I saw one little boy that—

We’re working on that.

(Children talk over each other)

—uh, cripples, cripples—

What about ‘em?

We— We have been uh, working their legs (unintelligible under interruption) walk on their own without crutches. With people who don’t have legs, we got ‘em brand new legs every year.

We know how to make— We know how to make fingers that know how to work, even though they’re not their own.

We— We have done these things too. We have put science—

We have— We have put legs on their bodies.

(Children talk over each other)

Yeah, you— they can only do it to the rich people, right? They can only do it to the rich.

There’s a lot— I see a lot of people walking down the street that aren’t rich that have those (unintelligible under interruption), they’re on welfare. They are not rich. We have Medi-Cal— (unintelligible under interruption) We have Medic-Cal for those— (unintelligible under interruption) We have Medic-Cal for those that need it.

(Children talk over each other)

I had— I had several— I had several friends that, it was doing—

(Children talk over each other)

Are you on Medi-Cal? Are you on Medi-Cal? (unintelligible under interruption)

No, I— I have the money. But those who don’t have the money, we help—

Then you help exploit the people in the capitalist system.

People that don’t have money, we give them the money.

(Children talk over each other)

What about Ethiopia that you helped, uh, kill (unintelligible under interruption) innocent babies, they didn’t do not a damn thing.

I didn’t drop any bombs.

No, it wasn’t you, (unintelligible under interruption) your damn tax dollars.

(Children talk over each other)

I dropped the bomb. We was trying to get the animals. And they got in the way. We’re trying to get rubber.

Fuck your animals, because—

(Children talk over each other)

—You don’t care about your animals, huh?

That proves— That proves that socialism— That proves that socialism—

(Children talk over each other)

We kill— We kill— We kill animals so our people can eat. What do you do, make them eat horseshit?

How can they eat that fuckin’ radiation you kill ‘em with?

What radiation? The only radiation we use is for the— uh, to get x-rays, so that’s medical care.

(Children talk over each other)

How do you think it cures cancer?

Socialist does— Socialists hate animals? I thought you was socialist, not capitalist.

And you just said, "Fuck animals." If you don’t care about your animals, I— how do we know you care about your people?

(Children talk over each other)

You traitor! You traitor!

Hey! You— You’re denouncing it?

Yeah, another socialist is a traitor.

Get out of here.

Capitalist wins. (Laughs)

(Children talk over each other)

Hey, don’t let him fu— He can’t fuck you up. I mean, he’s like uh, one person.

(Children talk over each other)

(unintelligible intro) —listen. What— I know he made a mistake in words—

No, no mistake to it, that’s just out— that is the truth— No mistake. The words did not slip.

I know he made a mistake in words, but—

(Children talk over each other)

Do you care about the poor people in Washington and De— and in Detroit, and all those places? Are you socialist or capitalist?

(Mumbles, then emphatic) I’m a socialist.

I give up. I’m capitalist.

Hey! Then I guess the socialists better start from the point that he’ll think that socialism is better, ‘cause I mean that’s a shame when the capitalist wins.

Socialism is better, because we’re working on all the poor children, we’re putting food in they bellies and roofs over their heads.

Well, we’re doing the same thing, too.

(unintelligible intro) —same thing, we make projects, we’re making housing for people, we have food—

(Children talk over each other)

(unintelligible intro) —rich people living in mansions, while the poor people have to be in um, ghettoes.

Because they like to, that’s why.

Because there’s different choices, just like you guys have choices between dorms and cottages.

I know, but at least we don’t make houses that leak through the roof, and icicles come falling on the roof.

(Children talk over each other)

I saw some of your houses in South America that have big ol’ cracks in the floor. If you’ll look in your community building. We don’t give our people that torturous candy they have.

(Child unintelligible)

Our subject is now dismissed. (Mike moves)

You may have, uh—

You made a point about the houses in South America. Only one country in South America is socialist, and that’s Guyana.

I have switched over to socialism.

That’s right, that means that they— That means they all—

(tape edit)

That’s (unintelligible word), because all the other countries are capitalist, so obviously capitalism must be better.

No, no.

No. We have Russia, we have— We have Russia, we have uh—

(Children talk over each other)

But we put chemicals in our food to heal people.

But look. Our— Our food is fresh. Just grown. Our oranges are green instead of— The bread is soft.

Our food is fresh too. You just have to go out and buy it.

All right, listen. But don’t you know that the second largest continent in the world has all socialist countries in it, except two. Pardon?

What? I beg your pardon— Could you repeat— (unintelligible under interruption)

You mean there’s more capitalists that socialists. Obviously, capitalism must be better.

No, no.

(Children talk over each other)

(unintelligible intro) Well, see. Capitalists— Capitalists, uh, someway, got everything (unintelligible word) before the uh, socialists did, and uh—

So you’re saying that because—

(unintelligible intro) —Socialist society every day, and we have twice as many doctors as the capitalist does. Why is that?

(unintelligible intro) —other people did. There are a lot of people are switching over to the capitalist side, as you just saw.

(unintelligible intro) —but you are still trying to switch the subject. I said the second largest continent in the world, which is Africa—

(Children talk over each other)

Wait a minute. The second largest continent in the world, which is Af— whi— which is Africa, is uh—

Is Russia, not Africa.

(Children talk over each other)

(unintelligible intro) —seen those socialists argue among themselves.

I mean— but uh— anyway—

(Children talk over each other)

(tape edit)

(unintelligible intro) —then your car blow up.

No, it won’t blow up, because the way the car’s devised, little bit of — what’s it called there — carbon comes out the bottom, and it— and it thins out in the air. And the carbon dioxide from the car is— it— let’s say about uh, ten percent, not even that, it— and we even uh, uh, in our cars, like, and— and in the socialist countries like Russia, Cuba, and— and— and Algeria, we fought for our revolution, and— and— and if you fought for your revolution, you— it’s— it’s harder for somebody to take away from you. That’s all your— your capitalist country is trying to do, is kill down the socialist people because they’re gen— more gentle people, they’re nicer people, ain’t trying to make people starve. And it— and uh, it’s just a better system.

Damn, Barry [Lewis], you call me a (unintelligible word)

What— what about when— okay, we have— Yeah, we fight, ’cause— what about— we had fought against y’all. With y’all has star— See, y’all has started a war with us and stuff. And we had— Yes, don’t say— Don’t shake your head. Yes. You started the war with us, so we had to bring out all our troops and stuff to fight off y’all, ‘cause y’all’s gonna take over United States.

How can you bomb little innocent woman and babies in Vietnam? Innocent. They were just—

Capitalists are the ones. Capitalists are the ones that started the war, because they do it for money. Socialists don’t have a reason to have a war.

They bomb little babies. They don’t give a damn.

Oh. Why come—

(Dismissive) Why come—

—you guys— okay, the capitalists, you sell cars. It’s not— Okay, okay, okay— Um, okay, the war. You guys think, you guys gotta go kill off everybody, so any— any way you do it, is going to lead up to everybody’s under socialist, right?


So then— Oh, yes, it’s right. So then, um— Ah, shit. Okay, forget it.

(Children talk over each other; mike moves)

You guys— Anyway, you guys are talking about fighting revolution. We fought our revolution too, remember, in 1777?

Yeah. That was for your own asses. You couldn’t— ‘Cause if it was for somebody else, you wouldna done it. You wasn’t as organized.

Well, you fought for your revo— You— you fought for your own asses too.

We fought for our people also. We fought for women and children, we fought for seniors who couldn’t fight for themselves. We organized it. And— and we risked our own lives for it. We wasn’t worried about what was going to happen to us. We went out there and we did it because we’re concerned about our people. We want them free.

The children and the seniors, they got asses too, don’t they?

Yeah, but we fought for them also, because they couldn’t fight for themselves.

What would y’all do? You let your seniors sit up there and be tooken over by—

Point. um, uh, the— the sen— the seniors— the seniors and children— We gave the um, the teenagers the— the guns and the seniors with the pitchforks and everything, and um— and the uh, the seniors, like, you know, you’d only protect yourselves. You’d only protect yourselves, and the seniors, they— they fight for the little— for the—or the uh, ev— for everybody— the seniors fought for everybody, because they know their age— their age is uh— their ages are up, and also, uh— also we have— we have— we have it all organized, instead of uh, using bombs.

(Mike moves)

Al— Alfred [Smart] just said that you let our sen— you let your seniors fight. You— you— you had just said you don’t— you had just said you don’t let your seniors fight. Right? You other socialists just said, that you do let the seniors fight.

I said, for the wo— for the seniors and children that couldn’t fight. For the ones that couldn’t fight.

All children can fight, except for our babies. We give everybody— You onlu gave your— your young people the guns, we gave everybody the guns.

Ye— yeah, but what about the babies? They can’t fight. What are you going to do to them?

(Mike moves)

See, you just answered your own question. That’s what we did to Vietnamese children. We just— We killed them so they wouldn’t be taken over by the um— (unintelligible) so they wouldn’t be taken over.

Why— I’d like to say, that, all right, you said, you gave all the children the guns. All right. You didn’t even make sure that they knew how to shoot the gun. You just gave it to them. And they went out, they just firing it any old way, shooting up themselves, and— and that— and that— that didn’t make no sense. But we— we have training programs for them, to make sure that we know how to use our weapons, so that when we go out to do our job for a revolution, we do it right.

Well, I don’t think we should debate the point anymore, I mean— (Pause) I don’t know, well, (unintelligible name), you got some points. I’m a— You got some good points over on your side, and we got (stumbles over words)— I don’t know what to say.

It sounds like the capitalists are being slightly evasive, because they don’t know how to uh— they don’t have a— they don’t know how to explain why they send 16-year-old boys out into the war to fight, just to make money for the rich. The 16-year-old boys that are— are going on the war aren’t getting anything, yet in a socialist society when there’s a revolution, they are fighting for their rights against money-makers profiteers like you.

You say that your um, teenagers uh, went out— I mean, your seniors went out and fought. But you made them go out and fight. How do you know they wanted to go out and fight?

(Stutters in beginning) And when you said that, that um—

Answer the question, (unintelligible)—

Oh. We don’t make them fight.

All right. They didn’t— We didn’t make them fight. They were the ones who went in our tool shed, they ran in there, they got the pitchforks, they grabbed the cutlasses, and they wanted to fight for their own land. They went around there, and they surrounded our property, ‘cause they wanted to fight, ‘cause they didn’t think that after the years they had toiled for a white man before, and been en— enslaved, that they wasn’t going to be enslaved again.


Also, in a socialist system, when the people own the means of production, and they— everything is in the hands of the people, then they know when they’re fighting, they’re fighting for their own thing, they’re not fighting for some rich guy.

Ha-ha-ha. Anyway, how do you know we send our 16-year-old boys out there not knowing how to fight with a gun? Were you on our side once? Oh, so you’re a traitor, huh?

No, we didn’t have to be on your side. You also have a news media, which is hard to trust, because you tell so many lies in your news media, but they inform us, and they have draft things, where everybody that goes to co— uh, college and is sixteen years of age is of draft age, where they are now put into the war. And also about the seniors, they— no one has to force anyone to fight for their own life. I mean, I— if— if I— Not for their life. But I mean, for the lives of the children, for uh, their— for their property, for their principle, anytime that that is uh— When you guys are coming over to try to harm the principle that they stand for, no one has to tell anyone to fight. If your baby was about to be tortured, you’d fight too.

So? (unintelligible sentence) because you guys tas— you guys torture um, all women and chil— all men and women, you tortured them, I saw in that movie, uh-huh, I saw in Cuba.

Movie made by capitalists.

We didn’t make that movie. I can’t help it— I’m not Alfred Hitchcock.

No, but he’s a capitalist. He’s in your society.

All right, then, how come he (unintelligible phrase) for money. All right, then how come Alfred named his name after Alfred Hitchcock, huh? Did he like it?

Alfred: First of all, it’s not named after him, and my last name is March, not Hitchcock. And besides that— (clears throat) Besides that, why’d you make the napalm bombs? To—

(unintelligible reply)

Alfred: Why’d you make the napalm bombs? And why’d you make the neutron bombs? And why’d you make the nuclear bombs? Huh? Because you wanted to destroy people. And you made the neutron bomb, and it tortures people and— that radiation tears their bodies apart, and melts their skin off of them. Why’d you do that, huh? ‘Cause you weren’t concerned with people. Yet you say you were concerned for people. And what about 16-year-old boys? You send them out there, you draft them, they don’t have a decision, and when they don’t come, they get put in jail for— for who knows how long they get— and they get— they get fucked up the ass and shit, they get uh, (clear throat) the jailers beat ‘em, they get racked up against the cells, they don’t get their proper fo— their proper food— (Pause)

You say we draft ‘em, but um, a lot of times, they want to. The only ki— kind of people we draft is the people that don’t want to be— fight for their land. And also, they can always run away, you know. They don’t have to stay in that place. They can— They can run away. But if we catch them, they’ll get it. But anyway—

Uh, the ones that get drafted are the— are the poor people. The rich folks can buy their way out of the draft. And young folks in the United States have no choice. If they get drafted, they either go to jail, or they go to war.

Uh, it— When they run away, it’s called AWOL. When you go AWOL, you’re in— (unintelligible phrase)— If you get found, you get put in prison, when you get AWOL.

Alfred: (talks low for sentence) All right. Okay, you draft them, right? What about your rich— Those— You draft them, all the poor black people, the poor black children, but you ne— I never seen one of those rich— one of those rich white— sophisticated white boys from Nob Hill or anything like that going up there. What about them, huh? Are they too precious?


Um, anyway, see— Anyway, black people live in Nob Hill, that shows you we have rich places for our black folks, and— and plus, we don’t— and they don’t have to go. Like, what happened to the Vietnamese or a whole shipload ran away, and they didn’t have to get— come back.

What— What— What about— when you— why— Alfred made a point, that why— how come the white sophisticated boys come. Their skin is too white to get dirty?

Alfred: Yeah. You never answered the question. Why don’t you answer it?

It’s not— It’s not a means of color, it’s a land of equal opportunity. Anyone that wants to work and if they get the money, if they work hard enough, because everyone else is lazy. It just so happens that uh, that they worked hard, and they managed to get their way up there. It’s free private enterprise. If they wanted to get it, they could make it.

Yeah, dirt is black— Dirt is black anyway. And anyway, they want to get dark, because they— they lay out in the sun every day, and they try to get black, so we put them out there, so they can get dirty and get black.

Get dirty and get black. You put them out there to protect your own ass, ‘cause you’re too lazy to get out there and fight for your own self, and besides that, here goes the point I’m going to make because— All right. You said they can— they— they got free enterprises, but first of all, you guys got all the money, and you got the materials and stuff to make your free enterprise. What about the poor people? They have no money to make their free enterprise. They have nothing. They ain’t got nothing. You own the land they have to pay taxes to you, and they— what little money they get from like, when you put them on welfare, you know— (voice fades as mike moves)

Get— Getting on raw materials. Well, you guys are out here, and you guys, um, you guys can get your raw materials, but I don’t see you trying to get it, and um, you’re very um— (Pause) You— You always depend on somebody else to come, to bring you stuff, you always bring your ship in, bring stuff and everything.

(Several children speak over each other)

All right, you say that— All right, we have— we have a community now down here where we use our own ideas, and we— we may de— decide on things like, we use what we have, we plan our own food, we grow our own food, and we use our food, and we experiment (clears throat) with different things, we go out in the bush and we experiment on different types of wood that— and find out about ‘em, we make our own clothes, we don’t use your gas anymore. (Pause) So what you gotta say about that? Have— Name— Name a time when you went out and you tried to make it on your own, and have pure food where it’s not— not mixed up with all sorts of chemicals and— What about the Hostess Twinkies you make? What are they supposed to do?

Back on the subject that you tried to evade from, uh, you’re talking about the poor people couldn’t uh— the poor people wouldn’t be able to do it. Well, we’ve got loan systems. If they wanted to get money, they could come to the bank, they could get loans, and—

That’s a lie.

—also— you keep switching subjects. What was the subject that they mentioned (unintelligible word) that they tried to evade? What was that (unintelligible word under interruption)? You keep changing the subject.

Oh, I remember that subject. That subject was of war. The— World War II—

(Several children speak over each other)

—war— Wait, wait, wait. And on the war, we uh— It is not the fact that uh— You see, we don’t have to fi— You mentioned that we were a very powerful system. That’s very true, and that’s why we don’t have to fight for our uh, for our— for anything, we just go out— We’re trying to invest and get more materials, so we can make our system even more powerful. Our people— We are known as a strong country. That’s why it’s so good.

Yeah! Anyway—

What if— What if the Soviet Union attacked? What are you going to do then? A little small country with a big country, huh?

Oh, the Soviet Union attack us, and aren’t they a socialist country? So, you just said a while back that um, we were the ones who started the wars, so why would they attack us, unless they were the ones starting the war.

Well, what if you sho— what if— what if— what if you shoot a bomb over there, and they have to fight back to defend theirselves?

(unintelligible intro) You guys are talking about the world wars, and all the rich people didn’t fight in the world war. I fought in World War II, and I’m rich. And anyway, while you see— Remember, we were good buddies. Remember the Russians and the Americans? Ah, I think I’ve reconverted.

All right, that’s what— That’s what you say. All right. But how you became a powerful nation was this: you sent out our people, our black people to fight for you. You didn’t go out there yourselves. We had to go out there and fight.

Well, on the um, subject of the wars, people— peo— (Pause) People are um, uh— going— In your system, people are going into war, and— and— and they— and they don’t even ha— have a chance to— to— (Pause) I just don’t know what to say on this subject.

Okay, when you— You’re talking about our people? Our people— When your people, they (unintelligible word) go to wars, and they come back with broken legs, skin all melted off, um, um, when they come back, (stumbles over words), their body is totally destroyed. I think it’s total anarchy.

(voice fades in) —talking about? What, uh— You’re— You’re saying total anarchy is always a bad thing. I do believe communism is a state of total anarchy.

No, because communi— communism—

(Several children speak over each other)

You mean, you don’t know what communism is? You just said no. Communism is a state of total anarchy, and you just cut down (unintelligible under interruption)

No, I did–No, I did not.

Yes, you did.

You must over— You must have heard me wrong.

Well, we’ve got it on tape.

Okay, let me say something. I’d like to say something. It is a good step, total anarchy, the people do not need a government, because of they know what— what’s right. They rule themselves, and they have a peo—

Well, we need a government. It’s a democratic government, and we have justice, we have a court system, and a jury system, it’s justice.

Yeah, but in your total anarchy, you uh— you guys—

We don’t have total anarchy. We have a system of— We have a system of uh— We have law and order.

Well, in your kind of anarchy, what you call anarchy, everybody does their own thing— (Pause) They’re not— Everybody does their own thing, and they do what they want to, and they kill everybody.

(Several children speak over each other)

We have an honest police force. What do you mean, they kill everybody? We try to protect the city. (Laughs)

You mean your— your bloody system is— is— is— is— is— is better than ours? Our police system don’t go around beating on black people. They don’t go around castrating young people. They don’t go around— They don’t go around um, raping black womens, and— and destroying people’s houses.

I have never raped a black woman.

Did I say you did?

Yes. (unintelligible)

All— All— All— All right.

You make general statements. What do you mean, we all rape black women.

I said the police do. The fascist— The fascist police—

Well, that’s a general statement. That’s a general statement. How do you know?

Because— Because—

Where’s your proof?

My proof?


I got proof. I saw it.

Where? You saw it. You saw every policeman—

(Several children speak over each other)

I used to live in the ghetto. That’s how I know. And I came from—

And you watched every police officer rape—


All right. Like in the time, Martin Luther King, right— What about him? What about—

(Several children speak over each other)

I’m going to say something about that.

You (unintelligible word)— You abuse— You still abuse the women then. Okay, and you say that you—

Our women are not abused. We treasure them.

Yeah, then why do the policemen beat ‘em, and what— I— I mean like— All right, what about when— when white women be going down the street, or they steal something, do the policemen ever push them up against the car and make them spread their legs wide? No. Yet they do it to black women, they push them up against the car, and they make them—

Did you see it?

It was— (clears throat) It was in a— It was in news articles before—

(Dismissive) Oh, yeah.

(Several children speak over each other)

It was in the Black Panther news article, that’s where it was.

The Black Panther news article, huh? How do you know that they didn’t write what they wanted to say, because they were black.

Yeah, but they—

Because they’re socialist, that’s why—

Yeah, and anyway, you guys are slaughtering the Black—

No, they’re not—

Well, you guys are slaughtering the Black Panthers all over the place. Hey, and one of your sell-outs is a CIA member, and (unintelligible word) infiltrating the Black Panthers, and you know it.

But he’s the leader of it. It must be— There must be something good, if the leader of it is in the CIA.

Let’s change the subject.

No, that was his secretary. And don’t change the subject—

Let’s change the—

I’m right on the subject, of the leader of the Black Panthers is in the CIA.

(Several children speak over each other)

—secretary, he was one of your CIA—

(Several children speak over each other)

—Elaine Brown—

Elaine Brown, that you put in the um, Black Panthers to infut— infiltrate their movement—

We didn’t put no one in—

You accepted her.

What? I’m not in the Black Panthers.

(Several children speak over each other)

But you’re— But you’re black.

And you’re in favor for the Black Panthers.


(Several children speak over each other)

Yes, there’s black in there. But, see—

(Dismissive) But— But— But— "But" erases everything you say.

All right, then, let "but" erase everything I’ll say.

Oh, well, then that means that they’re in our system. It must be— It must be a good system, if we have the Black Panthers in our system.

(Several children speak over each other)

They’re trying to fight off your system.

Okay, now.

In our system, we all— we allow them there. We must allow—

You do.

(Several children speak over each other)

And— and— and anyway, I don’t— None— I don’t think anybody on this board rapes none of black—

Have you raped a black woman?

No, I haven’t. And I would never—

(Several children speak over each other)

Anyway— Anyway, talking about (unintelligible word) you allow them there, you’re slaughtering them.

Okay, let me say something. Okay— Um— Oh, darn it, um—

You are not alone, brother.

What’s the matter? Don’t you know what to say? (Pause) Stuck on words or something?


(Several children speak over each other)

What about— What about the black Uncle Toms? You— You just treating them nice, and then when you get tired of them, you— you— you kill ‘em off.

That was in slave days. That was when there was slavery, and we have evolved to a more perfect system of capitalism. (unintelligible under interruption) more evolved system—


End of tape

Tape originally posted September 2003

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