Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.
(Note: This tape was one of the 53 tapes initially withheld from public disclosure.)
Male: I am a confirmed and a committed socialist. (Pause) I am confirmed and committed to Jim Jones as well. I have been for years and I always will be. However, years ago when I joined this group I was a pacifist. I really believed that we could effect meaningful social change using democratic processes. I no longer believe that’s true. Now I think the only way, in the words of Mao [Tse Tung], to change society is through the barrel of a gun. And I’m committed to that principle as well. It’s only Jim’s guidance that has stopped me from acting out in this way, because I see no other use or meaning for my life. (Pause) In the past, I’ve done a number of things for the socialist cause that are not acceptable to the society and that could not be construed as [in] any way as being legal, but these are not considerations of mine. The only consideration I have is the advancement of the socialist cause.
Jean Brown: My name is Jean Forester Brown. I believe in Jim Jones. I believe in socialism, but I do not believe that it is any possible any longer in this country to effect change and to bring about socialism without violent (Pause) revolt, and I am pledged by everything that I hold dear that I will give my life in a violent overthrow of this government, and if it comes to it, I will stick a grenade or a bomb in my body and go to the Senate (Pause) or the Congress of this country and blow myself and this government up. I am committed to this socialist revolution and the violent manner against the better judgment of my pastor who has cautioned me against it, but I can do no other.
June Crym: (Flat voice) This is June Crym. I— For years I have been a socialist. I believe in socialism as the only way. The only way to effect a change in this country is to go about it through violent means. We have reached a point where pacifism does not work. If I had the chance — and I will take it at any time I can — I will do anything I can to blow up any part of this government. I will take part or conspire in anything I can to destroy this government. I will assassinate the president, [Jimmy] Carter. I will do what I can to, to uh, destroy the Senate— any part of this government that continues this terrible course of events that we see now in this country. The only thing that has kept me from going ahead and doing this is my pastor, Jim Jones. (Pause) I thank him for keeping my temper under control and one of these days, if I didn’t have him, I would let loose and do what I have had in my mind for years.
Bonnie Beck: (Passionate) This is Bonnie Beck and I think that it’s about time we face up to the reality that I’ve sat here for years, and I’ve watched Jim talk about being a pacifist and turning the other cheek and trying to educate people and show kindness, and all it’s gotten him is sick. And I think it’s about time that I get on with what I know has to be done. I mean, in a way [Gen. George Armstrong] Custer had the right idea. You kill Oem to save Oem. And my choice at this point is to get rid of the motherfuckers. They’re doing nothing but causing people to die. They’re causing them to starve. They’re causing them to be sick, and I think the best thing right now is just to get rid of their ass. I see no other alternative. I— Everything that he’s spoken about is fine and good, but nothing happens. All good people— happens to good people is they get sicker, they get poorer and the motherfuckers get rewarded. So fuck them all. I’m ready to off Oem, and I don’t care what anybody says. They’ve had it in my book.
Harriet Sarah Tropp: This is uh— This is Harriet Tropp, and (sighs) I’ve done a lot of thinking in the past few weeks, and I just thought I should make a few things clear. Number one, I have been a member of Peoples Temple for seven years, and I have seen Jim Jones co— give his life to the ideals of peaceful change within the system to bring about a more just society. I fully have supported everything he has ever done. I believe in him. I believe (stumbles over words) in his sincerity, and I stand committed to what he believes in, his ideals, and his actions. I— I have no um, disagreement with him whatsoever. However, I know that my commitment has always been a more militant one, in the sense that he’s always had to convince me not to participate in violent activities or to uh, commit really anti-social acts. And I’ve been reluctantly convinced, because I could see the pragmaticism of his point of view. However, what was uh— what is sincere for him, what is a sincere belief in pacifism for mir— for him, has always been play-acting for me because I am basically a very violent person, and a person who believes in the disruption of this society, in the overthrow of this government by violent means, and the reinstitution of a completely different economic system, and I believe in bl— I— I believe in killing representatives of this government and of the establishment, the law enforcement. I will do so. And at— The point of time has come into my life where I can no longer maintain myself in a pacifistic organization such as Peoples Temple under the guidance of— of a person like J— Jim Jones who believes in non-violent change. And I have decided that I will in the future uh— work out my political beliefs which are for me, Communist, although Reverend Jones is not a Communist, and (pause) I will do so. I will take my Communist ideology into the streets with violent activity and destroy, kill, maim, or blow up anything and everything that I feel will be a valid way of protesting the system, which includes law enforcement, uh, elec— PG&E (unintelligible word) power stations, things like that, which I have long planned on doing and have plans to do, and have only been thwarted in doing this and prevented from doing this but by Jim Jones’ teachings.
Richard Tropp: Hello. My name is Richard D. Tropp. All I want to say is that I’ve been a member of Peoples Temple for many years, and Jim Jones is a very compassionate man, but even though uh, he’s uh, this kind of person and he is uh, very committed to human ideals, I feel he is going about it in entirely the wrong way. There’s— Things are not moving pa— fast enough. We’ve got to get some guns. I believe it’s true that the revolution comes out of the barrel of a gun. And these motherfucking people who’ve been ripping off poor people, and fucking over the world— I got myself together a bunch of people, and we’re going to do something about it. We aren’t going to sit around here and talk theory and bullshit about this and that. We’re going to get ourselves— go out and get ourselves some of these bigwigs. I’ve seen hotels, I know it’s easy to get into these hotels and these convention rooms. Get some guns, get some bombs. We can get this place blowed up. We can get these places all blowed up. We can get a lot of things done. We better get started on it. And I’m uh, planning to take action very soon. [I] Don’t know where, but I cannot stay any longer a pacifist, any longer somebody who’s non-violent. This is just completely ridiculous. It’s not doing anybody any good. It’s uh, kind of thing, that uh, okay, you know, it’s just— we just spinning our wheels. We got to get something done, so I think we’re going to have to kill some of these people, like, right from the president on down, I mean the senators, the congressmen, and get— get some of these corporation heads, and boards of directors. Right in there at the very top level. Create havoc, terrorism. I think with a bunch of people we get together— we can get some people together. I got some contacts with the underground movement of terrorists, and the NWLF, (unintelligible phrase, sounds like “I think they’re”) terrorists, I think they’re right on. So we going to get it together right away.
(Rest of side 1 is blank)
Part 2: Phone call between unidentified Temple attorney — probably Eugene Chaikin — and woman named Marie)
Attorney: —because I am slightly forgetful, but I don’t think I will.
Attorney: At 922-6418. (Pause) And I’ll phone you Monday, uh— (Pause)
(Two people speak over each other, male unintelligible)
Marie: And would you— yes, and would you please find out just what type of a letter she wanted written? I— I’m not up on these things—
Marie: I— I really don’t know.
Attorney: Well, if it’s just a question of depositing— of depositing— (Woman talks over him)
Marie: (Unintelligible word) Uh, to redeposit what funds you took from my aunt.
Attorney: Well, if it’s just a question of that, then I could just stop over at the bank and redeposit the loan.
Attorney: Oh, I’ll check with you. (Too soft)
Marie: Oh, so you want to do that, you don’t want to uh— you— you just want me to tell you what I think are legitimate.
Marie: I think none of it’s legitimate. (Pause)
Marie: I see a little old lady who was taken for a ride. I— I— You know, I don’t want to— I want to get this over with fast, because the more I see my aunt, the more bitter I become. And she’s not even, um— I— I haven’t even told her this whole thing, you know, of how much (unintelligible word). But anyhow, um— (Pause) I’ll be (unintelligible phrase) with you, as long as you’re on the phone. I just don’t think (unintelligible word) of $250—
Attorney: I have a copy of the list. I don’t have it in front of me, but I have it. I’ve seen it.
Marie: Oh, but don’t you want me to tell you what I think is— is— (unintelligible phrase) list, and tell you what— what she could pay?
Attorney: Yeah. Right.
Marie: All right. I— I also believe that those two checks she made for Peoples Temple, that my aunt did not make— She made— She made all these checks.
Marie: She made a check for $20 for clothes, that she bought (unintelligible word). She made a check for Peoples Temple for another $25. She made a check to Belmont Hotel for food, but she was— my aunt was in the hospital at this time. (Pause)
Attorney: But your aunt was in the hospital all of the time that you—
Marie: My aunt was in the hospital from January the ninth to January the twenty-fifth. But um— she did— two days, she certainly did not eat $31 worth of food.
Attorney: I wouldn’t argue with that.
Marie: No, I’m not going to argue any of these things. I— I don’t know what Michelle wants but, uh, she made a check for $250 which she wrote for private duty nursing. Private duty nursing. I have checked with it. I have checked all over. I got all the facts. And I’m not— I’m not asking for anything that’s (unintelligible word) an old lady.
Attorney: No, I— I— I’m— (Sighs) I’m really not questioning it. I was just asking you what, you know—
Marie: No, that’s— Yeah, that’s why I say— you say, what do I think is legitimate? As far as I’m concerned—
Attorney: Yeah. And you say none of it. Okay. Well, then, you needn’t read it off, because that I understand how you feel. (Pause)
Marie: I— I feel very angry about it. (Man talks over her)
Attorney: Well, I know, I can tell. I think— I think— I think that’s ri— I think it’s reasonable. I’m not—
Marie: Mrs. [Marceline] Jones is a nice woman, and I— I’m also uh— I— I also want to find out about this Clarence Brown. These are two things I want to find out.
Attorney: Well, I know this, that uh, Clarence was contacted by Agnes to go over there and do some practical nursing, which he uh— he says he did, Ocause I called him—
Marie: He says he did, and it—
Attorney: He says he did, and he said the time was uh, charged and paid at four-thirty-five an hour, which is the going rate in San Francisco. I— That’s what he told me. I haven’t verified whether or not in fact that is the going rate. But I’m— I’m just repeating to you what he said to me.
Marie: Uh-huh. He was not sent by the church to sit with her.
Attorney: So the church hasn’t got any—
Marie: The church doesn’t do anything.
Attorney: The church has nothing to do with this at all. The only thing that happened, as far as the church is concerned, that a social worker called up the church and says she wants to do this, connected with the church, and somebody in the church asked Agnes if Agnes would go over and uh— and visit her in the hospital. And that was the only contact the church had with (woman speaks over him).
Marie: Yeah, (unintelligible phrase)
Marie: And that was it.
Attorney: Right. And it had nothing to do with the church at all. Nobody knew anything about it, until uh, I don’t know when, because I wasn’t meeting with this all but uh— and then when Marceline got a hold of me, (unintelligible word), she said that things had uh, you know— (too soft)
Marie: Yeah. Yeah. Well—
Attorney: So that’s all there was to it, but how you want to deal with Clarence, I don’t know, I think that you— my impression is that you thought that he was, you know, doing practical nursing services for money, and that was what he did.
Marie: Oh, he did. Umm-hmm.
Attorney: That was his—
Marie: Well. That was his idea. Uh—
(Interchange too soft)
Marie: Uh, for $50 on February first, you also agreed to that, but you (unintelligible word)—
Attorney: I don’t have any argument with you about any of those kinds of things. I just wondered what your evaluation (voice becomes too soft for two sentences).
Marie: Nothing. I’m not angry with what’s going on. I’m not asking for anything that wasn’t paid—
Attorney: (Sighs) No, and I’m not suggesting you’re doing that—
Marie: But the thing that bothers me—
Attorney: I’m just telling you what my per— what my, you know—
(Two talk over each other)
Marie: You’re— You’re the church’s attorney at this—
Attorney: I’m one of them, yeah.
Marie: You’re one of them, yeah. The thing that bugs me is to think that a young girl could get a hold of an old lady’s checkbook, and just go a bank branch for fun, quite a deal, (unintelligible word), and— and fortunately I was called in on the last minute, or the whole works would’ve gone.
Attorney: Well, I’m glad you—
Marie: Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyhow, I’m not— I want to get this through and clear this. I— The more (unintelligible word) somebody calls me, the angrier I get, because every time I visit her in that home, she is so disoriented from being put into one home, pulled out— You know what? Can I tell you something you— as a (unintelligible word)? I should think that an old lady with a very bad heart, Ocause she— with a— in the condition she’s in, could be put into one home, taken out, put back into another convalescent home, taken out, then get these checks returned from both convalescent homes, have this old lady sign these checks, and I have to ask for these— the return of these checks, which amounted to fifteen hundred dollars. Here’s another thing. I asked for those. I was told, get those checks back, and I asked for them, I said, I would like those checks— she had already had them endorsed, boom, like that.
Attorney: (Short laugh)
Marie: So— (sighs)
Attorney: You mean endorsed from—
Marie: —my aunt to endorse them. And they were returned from—
(Talk over each other)
Attorney: They just had a blank— they had a blank endorsement. In other words—
(Tape silence for five seconds)
Marie: Two days. And got refunds from— she said she was my Asian daughter. But anyhow, she got her fees back. You know I— I don’t want to— Just uh— If you say, let’s get this straight—
Attorney: That’s all I want to do, you know. (Pause) I don’t have any uh— you know, uh, Marshall [Temple attorney Marshall Bentzman] just called me up with it, uh— to say, give this lady an argument, she— she just said, work out the mechanics.
Marie: No, I— no, you see— Or— I’ve been hearing from my aunt for the past few years how good this church is. My aunt has contributed generously incidentally.
Attorney: I understand that’s true.
Marie: Ah— I’m looking at past checks.
Attorney: I understand that’s true.
Marie: Hundred fifty dollars for (unintelligible word), $200, Reverend Jones, $200. This is good, to me. I think she’s entitled to it. You know, I ca— Could I tell you another thing? I called last year when my aunt was ill. She went to Presbyterian hospital, and uh, she was there three weeks, and when we came home, I took care of her in her home. This whole thing started because of this one incident. My aunt had made a check for $200 to Reverend Jones for her commitment. So I was taking care of her, and she said, Marie, would you mail it, I said fine, Aunt Katie, I’ll mail it, and I put it in the mail, we sent it to Red— to River— Red Valley?
Attorney: Redwood Valley.
Marie: Redwood Valley. And I tried to get her in that convalescent home at that time. They told me it was full up, but they were building a place in San Francisco. I talked to a Mr. Cordell [probably Harold Cordell], I’ve got (unintelligible phrase), that um, if she would wait, they could get her in there. So my aunt said, okay, she would wait. Well, in the meantime, this $200 check came back, endorsed by, you know, by Reverend Jones. But the bank forgot to take it off her account. So she said, oh, he did not get that check. She was very upset about it. (Stumbles over words) I said, Aunt Katie, it’s endorsed, it went through the bank, the bank made a mistake and did not deduct it. So okay. I went to the bank— I had to call her, sick as she was, and I said, um, this check went through, Aunt Katie, all the girl wants to know is the date that you made it, they’re going to check, they have to (unintelligible word)— the um, things are all downtown, you know, all the things are downtown in their— their main vault or whatever. So I called her back. In the meantime, she said to me, oh, forget it, Marie, she said, there’s a young man from the church here, and he tells me to forget it, that they did not take that, you know. So— So I said, Auntie Katie, are you going to listen to me, or are you going to listen to some young man that you don’t know from the church. And she got angry at me, and— that is why, when she was at the hospital this time, they did not call me, you see. She was angry at me for this very thing. All started because of this. Never heard of this church in my life before. (Laughs)
Attorney: Well, it’s all very confusing, you know, we’re a very, very large church—
Marie: And you’re a wonderful church, from what I understand.
Attorney: Yes. Well, we— we do everything we can, and we work very hard at it, you know. And, like everybody else, we have failings, and of course, there are a lot of people uh, that we take of, and people in the church that participate with the church that are here, uh, because they need it, you know, uh— And after all—
Marie: Well, I thought she needed this, but I don’t think they took care of her.
Attorney: Pardon me?
Marie: I don’t think they took care of her. I mean, when you need somebody to come into the room, they advertise in the paper, this church, you know, how they have this deal that they called on the old people in the tenements and everything, to sit with them, to shop, you know, uh, I— I didn’t see it.
(Sound of receiver being picked up and replaced)
Attorney: Who was that?
Marie: My aunt. I didn’t see it at this time.
Marie: If— If— If Clarence Jones can charge ninety-seven— a hundred forty-seven dollars for sittin’ with her for two days, that’s pretty steep, (Pause) as far as I’m concerned.
Attorney: Yeah, well, I don’t know. As I say, I’m just telling you uh, the way it was presented to him, and uh, let you deal with that, of course, the way you want to.
(Woman talks over)
Marie: Yeah, I will.
Attorney: (unintelligible phrase) We don’t feel that we’re responsible for it exactly, but you know what I’m trying to say.
Marie: I do.
Attorney: We feel badly about it, and we’ll accept whatever valuation you make, because we just feel very badly about it.
Marie: Yeah, well, you think he should be paid.
Attorney: Well, I tell you— I think— All I’m saying, that I think, from his perspective— I think from his perspective, somebody said to him— to him, I have some part-time, short-term employment for you.
Marie: Oh they did.
Attorney: You know. I think that’s what Agnes said. I need somebody to care of, and I— it’s a standard rate, uh—
Marie: Well, I wouldn’t take Agnes’ word for anything. She’s a compulsive liar.
Marie: But anyhow, uh—
Attorney: Well, we’re learning, you know—
Marie: —I don’t know what I’m going to do. She should never handle any old people again, either.
Attorney: Yeah, that’s— that’s been established.
Marie: Yep. Okay, look it, we’ll take that off, then, that’s $147. And then, uh, but the food, I don’t know (stumbles over words), she didn’t eat $35 worth of food, she didn’t eat anything—
Attorney: Well, I’ll tell you. I’ll call you Monday, and you sit down, and you figure out exactly what you want to do, and we’ll figure out the mechanics on how to get it done.
Marie: Okay. I don’t know— You’ll find out from Mrs. Jones just what she wants my aunt to sign. You know, you write that up. I don’t know what it is. It’s this form of release of some sort, right?
Attorney: Oh, okay, yeah, right.
Marie: But it’s stating that (unintelligible word) were paid. Mrs. Acando [phonetic] received the funds, you know, whatever. You can— you word it—
Attorney: Well, I’ll sit down and we’ll write it together when I get there.
Marie: Okay, would you do that? And then you can call me, and if you want, you could uh, send it to me, and I will have her sign it and witness it by the administrator at the hos— of the hospital—
Attorney: Okay. I’ll tell you, we’ll just write it out when I’m over there. I’ll drop in Monday or Tuesday, and uh, we’ll just write it out together and then, I’ll just leave it with you.
Attorney: Because I’m not— I’m not worried about your obtaining, or getting it signed. I’m sure you will.
Marie: Oh fine. Okay.
Marie: I’ll go through this again and then— okay.
Attorney: Yeah. Okay, good deal.
Marie: All right.
Attorney: I’ll see you then.
Marie: All right.
Attorney: Okay, thank you so much.
Phone call between Sylvia and Linda
Woman: Hello, (unintelligible greeting)
Sylvia: Hello, may I speak to Linda, please?
Woman: Uh, she isn’t in. May I take a message?
Sylvia: No, that’s okay, I call her back. What—
Sylvia: Hello, may I speak to Linda, please?
Linda: This is.
Sylvia: This is Linda? (Pause) This is Sylvia, Linda. (Nasty tone) Uh, look, I want to tell you something. Because you associate with your relatives, we tried to (unintelligible word) good people, and deal with crooks. I don’t want you to ever send any messages by that punk (unintelligible word), nor do I ever want you to call me again. And furthermore, Cindy wants you to tell your sister to do the same thing. Do you understand me, girl? Good night. (Hangs up)
Phone call between Jones and Lehman Brightman
Jones: — leave the country.
Brightman: (unintelligible phrase)—the guy [probably David Conn] that was over here the other night to (unintelligible word) leave the country? The guy that was— (Pause) Well, I mean, (unintelligible word) leave the country? (Pause) Lee’s, uh—
Jones: You oughta ju— You oughta jump in a cesspool.
Brightman: He, uh— you know, I was trying to figure a man like that out.
Jones: Yeah, I wish you could. That’s a new twist.
Brightman: Said uh, he’s been uh, what, he say he’s been doing that for six years. (Incredulous)
Jones: Well, it looks like you been investigating somebody for six years, you ought to find something.
Brightman: I was uh—
Brightman: I was just thinking, what would possess a man to uh, you know, to come up with a thing like that and do a, just a little— sneak around and, and do something like that?
Jones: Uh, I’m not the psychologist. I— I really don’t know. Um, I’ve heard from some of the psychology-oriented people in our church that uh, people are threatened by uh, size, they’re threatened by uh, what they think is success, if they only knew how difficult it was for leaders like yourself and Dennis [Banks, leader of American Indian Movement] and myself, or Cecil [Williams, pastor of Glide Memorial United Methodist Church] or Yvonne [Golden]. They envy that, and I’ve heard also that sexual things can possess people almost uh, obsess people, but not being able to relate it, I— I don’t know how. Maybe you as a— a professor know more— I— I don’t know. I really don’t know.
Brightman: I was looking at him while he was talking, you know, and what I was amazed at, is that, he’d never met my— me— (unintelligible word), he— he’d never met Dennis or myself—
Brightman: —and he walked in, and he was extremely nervous, and looking around, you know, and uh—
Jones: Wonder why— wonder why he would even dream to come against one American native to another, he really is a presumptuous racist bastard, it’s too too much.
Brightman: But what got me, he was so nervous, when he— you know, when he walked in—
Brightman: —and he set by the window, and then he started talking, you know, and uh, I introduced him to myself, and then uh, he started talking, very nervous. And he reached a certain point, and he said uh, I don’t think I better go into it. (unintelligible word) It’s just too much. He said, I better not go into it, and I said well, and I said uh, you know, if that’s the way you feel, I said, hell, uh, don’t go into the other.
Jones: That’s right.
Brightman: —and so he wait a few minutes, and then he go, No, I’ll call this for you.
Brightman: I will. And he started then, you know, and so—
Jones: Well, that voice. Did he talk like that? Is that the way his voice sounds?
Brightman: Yeah. And he—
Jones: The voice almost sounds familiar.
Brightman: He kept going, and finally, I— then he— the more he uh, talked, the bolder he got, and his— he lost all of his nervousness, and it was a transformation wi— within a period of three to four, five minutes, was just unbelievable. And he just—
Jones: I gather.
Brightman: You know, he completely lost his nervousness. Then he wanted to innoduce— introduce Dennis to a Secret— uh, or a Treasury agent, and he just uh—
Jones: I wonder— I wonder if any Treasury agent would be as idiotic to, to believe— uh, I don’t know, unless they want to get you, Ocause they believe anything, if they want to get you, uh, it’s pretty obvious, that— I— I imagine most of us in the Third World they’re not happy with, but uh, I thought Treasury agents only investigated um, well, I don’t know, um, uh, matters of uh, of uh— Ocourse you said, I had firearms, didn’t he?
Brightman: He said what?
Jones: Uh, he— did he say I had firearms or something?
Brightman: Yeah, he said so— I guess (unintelligible word) he told Dennis, I wasn’t here at that time, he said, (unintelligible word)— I walked in there, something about firearms, but he— I asked—
Jones: And uh, I think they investigate um— (Pause) Well, I— I would have thought any investigation begins with Internal Revenue, if they’ve got any questions, and God, we’ve been the most careful to pay more than our share of taxes, and you feel guilty about paying your taxes, but uh, we do pay them, uh, religiously, because we know that’s always the thing like they’ve done with Huey [Newton, Black Panther leader], when Huey left the country, they tacked him with that kind of thing, and they tacked him with murder, they um— It’s— it’s— it’s a pretty sad situation. I’m seeing a number of, of uh, progressive people who are getting a real l— lot of bad treatment and uh, it has to be organized, because there’s so many letters and so many contacts and so many people calling up and telling— I don’t know of anyone else in person— seems like, yes, there was one person that told someone against uh, uh, something against uh, Cecil, (stumbles over words) that came to uh, someone in person. But um, normally they write or they call uh— This, uh, this character um— of course, I checked him out with our denomination, because someplace, somebody told me he w— had been in our denomination. I wo— No, he was in our denomination. The bishop remembered such a name, um, however he remembered him as a druggist who had this um, fallen out with the bishop before the— our bishop, not the present bishop that he was telling all these stories on, about having intercourse with some um, I— I don’t know all this stuff, mind— I didn’t even tell that bishop about that, because I thought that sounded so ludicrous, that it wasn’t even worth telling the bishop about this intercourse with a minor. I just said he was b— bad— bad mouthing you too. But uh, he had fallen out with the bishop prior, which his name is Wilson, and uh— split a church, uh, but he said at that time he was married to a woman by the name of Ridgeway, who was a pretty good woman, but she had to leave him, because he was rather devious and uh, reactionary, but uh, highly articulate, he said, and uh— but he said he was a druggist. And I don’t know what happened that the guy is now a clerk, uh, if he was once a druggist. The den— the bishop said he could’ve been wrong, he might’ve been a dentist, but he was se— he was in some field of medicine. So if he surfaces again, I guess we’ll have to do some detective work on his um, his own credentials, because uh, he probably— if he ha— if you have left the field of dentistry or pharmacy, it’s probably because of some irregularity.
Brightman: You know what got me when, uh, when he uh, walked in nervous, you know, and then (unintelligible phrase) bolder and bolder. And uh, he uh, turned around, and I asked him, I said, what the— I wonder— I— I didn’t think of this till after. I said, well, what’s he get out of this, you know, why would he do something like this, what— what possesses a person to do something like this? And um— so I asked him, I said, you know I— I said, now how long you been doing this for? Six years. (Too soft)
Jones: Well, it’s an amazing thing. If we’d had very much to find, he sure would’ve found it in six years. Ah, that’s the first I’ve heard of him. I’ve never heard his name before. Um— he wa— he did mention some things that I think I alluded to, some very, very fa— uh, one fascist plant, that uh, tore out our tapes and all the tapes of our guest speakers, tore them out and I had a sort of psychic feeling, you might call a sixth-sense feeling, (unintelligible word), so we went and demanded them and got them back. But uh, she’d said at the time— she’d told some other people that she had planned it for a year. And I don’t know, maybe just— I’m— I’m jumping to a conclusion, but there was something in the notes of Dennis about he had— it was somebody he knew that he wa— wa— planned something for a year. So I wonder if he’s not inclined— I mean, she’s a John Bircher. She uh, long membership in the John— she had had long membership in the John Birch Society, had been a provocateur. Uh— the thing that really disturbs is, that he was trying— would not take you to this Treasury agent, uh, but insisted on taking uh, De— Dennis.
Brightman: This is where we got suspicious, you know. Uh, why— Ocause Dennis had said, well, he said, I may not be able to go with you, why not let uh, Lee go? And so I looked at him and I said, yeah, I’ll go later. And then, uh, then he chickened out, he said, no, he said, uh, you know, better not him, uh, (voice fades at end of sentence). And then uh, we showed him a, a picture of yours that was taken—
Jones: They said he didn’t even recognize my own picture.
Brightman: No. He didn’t recognize you or— what’s the big uh, black guy that uh—
Jones: McElvane [Jim McElvane, nicknamed Mac, black Temple leader].
Brightman: Yeah, Mac? He didn’t recognize—
Jones: I mean those— I mean those people have been with me— (Laughs) Uh, of course, I’ve been with me ever since the beginning, and he— he— I guess he uh, McElvane’s been with me ever since I can remember.
Brightman: Well, he— he was uh, saying that uh, he— Mac had committed about eleven murders or something like that.
Jones: (Disgusted) Oh, come now, for God’s sake. Never been arrested.
Brightman: And uh— and uh— He said that uh—
Jones: I— Not to my knowledge. I— No, yes, he was. He was arrested one time in the resistance, down in no, in uh, uh, the race riots of uh, San Fra— the Los Angeles days, the Watts era. But it was I think a charge dro— he arrested and dropped. It was uh, nothing more than that.
Brightman: But after telling me (unintelligible word)
Jones: Who’s that?
Brightman: —that Mac has been arrested uh, not arrested, but he’s been uh, you know, he knew of one murder he committed—
Jones: Ah, yeah, he a fool, he’s a fool, complete asinine fool.
Brightman: But he didn’t recognize him when I showed him the picture.
Jones: Isn’t that too much?
Brightman: And uh, didn’t recognize you and Dennis, you know, we kinda—
Jones: Well, this is really frightening, uh, that a man will go to that extent, it really is a, a frightening thing. Then someone called, allegedly the wife of this man, I don’t know whether I told you, I told, I think, it was your— your wife I mentioned it to— And how’s that baby, by the way.
Brightman: Uh, getting along beautiful.
Jones: Ah, that’s good. Well, I— I mentioned it, called trying to say that uh, you had set him up to do it, and uh, it really— a real clever attempt at de— at derision, uh, for this divisiveness, that uh, I— it’s a— it’s a new twist, I must say. Ah— I cannot— our attorneys— All we could gather was that he must have tried to get Dennis there to put a heavy on him, uh, threatening him or someway or trying to intimidate him, maybe he thought Dennis wouldn’t know his legal position, because— when we got le— when we uh, sent all those letters to the governor [Jerry Brown]— the governor’s the one to decide that, and uh, the governor um, um, gave us assurance by letter that uh, there would be uh, no extradition. We must’ve put— I don’t know how many thousands of letters we put in on Dennis’ behalf, and I’m sure many others did the same, uh— so the Treasury Department had a— an abominable thing to do, with his extradition. Uh, as far as I can see, the governor has to day— decide that matter. Uh, but I think the man may, in his foolishness, thought that uh, he could uh, pressure Dennis, because of being in front of him, untenable position, into doing uh, uh, maybe uh, saying some lie against us. I— I re— I don’t know, I’m— I’m just uh, I’m just guessing. So I’ll say to Dennis just to say, if he called again, that uh, go, you know, blow your— go fly your kite, we’re together, Yvonne Golden, Cecil Williams, and uh, all the different coalitions that we have together, and that might uh, deter him into fighting him off. Uh, but I guess he hasn’t called back any more, has he?
Brightman: No. I was tempted to call that uh, that Indian guy that came in, you know? And uh, ask him, what— uh, you know, about his brother’s uh, (stumbles over words) kinda help him, and find out where he is, or skip the country or what. In fact— In fact, that’s maybe what I’ll do.
Jones: Uh— My own opinion, off the record, is that when you got a devious mess like that, the best is to leave it alone. The more you stir shit, the old saying goes, the more it stinks. But another fact is that uh, they uh— we’ve had an experience where you talk to people, they’ll take tapes. We have not— They didn’t happen to meet one of our ministers, uh, who was— who is an activist. They uh, took it— uh, they taped him off of the telephone and pitched words together, and then— and then took that telephone, um— made ca— like a call, oh, uh— make a call and threatened people with that voice. Boy, that really was something there that he was— people can do anything with a few words, you know, they twist a word, put a word out of context and, and take and splice tapes, so unless, I— I— I don’t know, if you re— if you feels some real strong sense to do that, but my own opinion is, I’d leave the fool alone. He sounds like he’s some sort of a maniac, Ocause he has to leave the country. There’s no problem about that, either. Uh, somebody said his case was blown. Well, now, who blew his case? I— I don’t even know the man. I didn’t blow his case. And I sure as hell— I do have a notion to inquire at the Treasury Department, to find out what the hell is going on, uh, just a simple letter of inquiry. But uh— No, his case wasn’t uh, any way, you know, opened up by uh— that’s just— he’s delusional, if you follow me.
Brightman: This is what got me, when Dennis told me, that uh, he’d uh, made the remark that his case was now blown.
Jones: Mmm. That’s what Dennis told me.
Brightman: And he’s was going to have to leave him or something.
Jones: Well, I don’t know— he sure don’t have to leave for months. I— I— I will tell the world and all those that listen on telephones, if they ever wanted to attack us, we would defend our lives, because I— I— I’m a pacifist. I don’t believe in violent uh— but even Gandhi [East Indian leader and pacifist Mahatma Gandhi] said, if you got a mad dog running through, trying to kill your people, you must uh, uh, defend yourself against that mad dog. Um, I think that that’s just a matter of understanding. Anybody understands. That’s a simple equation. But um, we— we’ve never— people have tried to infiltrate us, they try to lie on us, and same with Cecil and Yvonne, nobody— none of us have ever done a thing to anybody. And Mac— uh, he’s a big man, but he— I— as far as my— my knowledge, he never lifted his finger against anyone. (stumbles over words) Boy, he sure got a vivid imagination. That man is too much.
Brightman: Well, I was— couldn’t figure— you know, I— I thought, well, you know, he must be addled to come up to a complete stranger he doesn’t know, and, you know, come offer a, you know, for two hours, or three hours—
Jones: What— what— what really amazes me, Lee, that really is astounding about it, if he is not completely off his rocker, why would he go a man that I have um, uh, bailed a wife out of jail, and wa— and uh, probably played a strong uh, impetus in getting him uh, freed from extradition. And— and, uh, if he knew anything— I mean, if he knew anything, and uh, lost my job uh, defending your right to express yourself— I mean, it don’t make any sense to go to friends, if— if you— if you had any alienation or enemy, uh, then that’s something else. If you’d been our enemies— but I— it don’t make an ounce of sense to go to friends and— and pa— and throw that kind of stuff off Oem.
Brightman: You know, his friends of the Indian guy, the one who initially called the first time, and told us, you know, you better stay away from Jim Jo— uh, told us to stay away from Jim Jones, and I said, what are you talking about?
Jones: The Indian said that to you?
Jones: The American Native said that?
Brightman: Yeah. This Indian guy. So I said, what do you mean? He said, well— you know, he said, uh, Jim is uh, known as being investigated, and he might be in trouble with (unintelligible word; “ministry”?), and I said well, what you talking about, and he said, yeah, well, there’s too much to tell, he said uh, I’ll have to get my friend to tell you, and I said, man, what’re you talking about? So finally I told him, I said, look, (unintelligible name), I said, Jim’s a very good spirit, and I said uh, he’s done an awful lot for us, so I said uh, you know, if you got something, I suggest you (unintelligible sentences) —just forget it, so I hung up. Well, he called the next day and talked to my wife.
Jones: Boy, that’s persistence. That is real persistence.
Brightman: Then he called another night and wanted to talk, you know. And finally I talked with (unintelligible word) a while, and I said, no, he wanted me to call his friend, and I said, give me your number, and I said, No, I don’t want to talk with him. And then, finally his friend called here, and— (unintelligible word) he even called me when I was here, (unintelligible word)—
Jones: Well, why— that’s why I think we were trying to— someway, we’re— although we’re not proceeding what uh, way (stumbles over words), likely not you, but Dennis and I was being set up, because he wouldn’t take you to whoever in the hell he wanted to go to.
Brightman: Right. This is what, uh, you know— Dennis, we, we were talking later, and he said, I didn’t (too soft)—
Jones: Get me and— me and him. But obviously not you, or he would’ve uh, he would’ve bit at the opportunity of taking— Ocourse, you’ve not got anything— you’ve not got any sword of Damocles hanging over your head, that— uh, frame-ups of that sort, and so, I— I really uh— I— I really think some sinister bastard was at work. And uh, I don’t know about the department. I suppose we been investigated by every department in the world, because uh, that’s— it’s to be expected. I know Cecil’s going through a hell of an investigation. I don’t think it’s closed up to this day. They’ve been (unintelligible word) to two or three years, based on some lies, he’s supposedly taken $250,000. Stowaways are quite similar. Uh, Cecil was supposed to’ve run off with $250,000, or taken a $250,000 uh, uh, bribe, and uh, money in a foreign bank or some goddamn thing, um, or— and then you said he said I had property (unintelligible sentence)— I had money in the bank, wasn’t it?
Brightman: Uh, no, (unintelligible word). I forget it was— I think it was, oh yeah, you had money in Swiss accounts.
Jones: Well, I sure wish I did. (Stumbles over words) I’d be glad uh, if I did have, with the way you see the economy going, and then the last night’s news said the drought swinging from Dakota to uh, Oklahoma to, all the way to Honolulu, but they said one gigantic dust bowl was coming, sixteen cities in Oklahoma were going to be completely, uh, dry of all water in— within less than two weeks, and then you— you see the racism—
Brightman: (unintelligible question) —two weeks?
Brightman: This was in Oklahoma?
Jones: Yeah. Sixteen— sixteen cities will be totally dry of water within less than two weeks.
Brightman: (unintelligible exclamation of pity)
Jones: And you know, that’s the parallel of the, the crash of ’29, and the economy’s a mess. One of our people had to buy a bed for truck for our agricultural project, he went to Scotland to get it, because the pound’s gone to hell, just like Canadian uh, uh, pound’s gone to hell. But in Scotland, not only did they find people out of work, but uh, they saw them walking the streets, scurging in, uh, scurrying in uh, garbage cans, hunting for food. And in the Ruhr— Ruhr— in the Ruhr industrial belt of Germany, four million unemployed. Now that— those are, as you know, the patterns of just the prior to the crash we had in ’29.
Jones: And, uh, with the racism, I um, I— we hear on the CB’s when we go by, damn Indians, those niggers, and using nigger— niggers as in uh, redskins, (stumbles over words) you’d— you be amazed, if you just turn the channels on our CB’s, we just listen, (voice of redneck), Aw, them niggers and redskins, they oughta run Oem out and kill Oem, they oughta— oughta lynch us a few niggers and uh, uh— (reverts to normal voice) really, the racism is rampant throughout the rural areas of America, not to mention the, the stupid, uh, foreign policies of, of Carter talking so much about human rights in the Russ— in Russia and not coming to terms and dealing— cleaning up our own backyard, which— which really could trigger, you know, a major thermonuclear confrontation. If— if you— if you start meddling with the domestic affairs— I don’t know, I’m sure the Soviets don’t treat all their uh, citizens right, but we sure as hell aren’t treating all of ours right. And uh, when we come off so cheek in tongue as— as to be the good guys and the Russians the bad guys— and now I noticed the president said yesterday that uh, you are threatening détente itself. I mean, (unintelligible word) you could go on and on. And the negatives are on the horizon, so, so vividly. And when economics begin to falter, the pecking order always begin, we, the black, Indian, Asiatic, always get it. And as I tell our— our black friends, if there should be a confrontation in Africa, which is real and soon certainly will come, if not in Zaire, it’ll be uh, Zimbabwe, or I mean, Rhodesia and Union of South Africa, uh— Blacks have never known the experience of the Japanese yet, of being an economic power that’s emerged, and when that happens, we saw the dual racism, and the dual treatment in the uh, forties, not a German arrested, and every Japanese, whether he was an Uncle Tom-san or ass-kisser of the first magnitude, he ended up in a concentration camp, and uh, not— not to mention, our people being in reservations, if they and— what is it, our average life expectancy, something like 44 to 47? Uh, so— so low that we’re trying a class action to avoid paying Social Security, Ocause we never get— never get to pay the damn Social Security— we never get any benefits from Social Security. Uh, that’s something black people really face vividly, and all minorities, of course, because, if there was a major war with one of those countries, you know the white mentality would not trust this large black population. They’d— they’d give the same old apologies, well, we gotta round them up for their safety and so forth. They’re not going to trust black people running free when they— when—
End of tape
Tape originally posted January 2002