Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.
Jones: (unintelligible opening) -well, we gotta round them up for their safety and so forth, but they’re not going to trust black people running free when uh, with munition dumps and uh, uh, you know, armed trains and so forth, uh, I- That’s why Senis uh- Senator [John] Stennis just said from the floor recently, we got too many blacks in the army, we’re going to have think more about the draft, and couple, three more other senators charmed [chimed] in, and I- I’d- I’m really concerned about the future of our country, and um, I’m not surprised that there’re conspiracies against us, but uh, it- it really is amazing, when you get lunatics who’re probably willing to do it for ‘most nothing, uh, maybe is being paid, but uh, I would not think that it’s a kind of a way to approach an attack, uh, I would’ve thought he was gone to enemies, he could easily find enemies, and he could drop that kind of a story on who are bizarre enough to believe it.
Caller: This is what I was really afraid of, that you would come to us, knowing, you know, that we were uh, friends with, you know, of all the uh, you know, the (unintelligible phrase)
Jones: That’ll I never figure out.
Caller: But I cannot figure what his goddamn ulterior motive was.
Jones: Neither can I. If you ever get any idea on that, uh, let me know, ’cause I- I- uh, that bombs me, because uh, uh, it’s just- it’s just too much-
Caller: (unintelligible under Jones) definitely, you know, uh, uh, like I say, I was just trying to figure, one is (unintelligible word), because, you know, it was (unintelligible phrase) in the first place, uh, you know, and why-
Jones: A wise man would’ve known so.
Caller: And not knowing it, ’cause I just got up and walked out of the room, you know, and Dennis [American Indian Movement leader Dennis Banks] was sitting there taking notes (unintelligible phrase), I went around and uh, I called (unintelligible phrase) showing pictures of uh, my parents in (unintelligible name) in Oklahoma?
Caller: And we walked around, you know, went outside, and I walked the dog, (unintelligible phrase), and what’s obvious, you know, the phone didn’t bother him, or the phone-
Jones: Lord, I- Yeah, I musta called three or four times myself.
Caller: But what got me is he wasn’t nervous. It never bothered him. He wouldn’t look up (unintelligible phrase), like nothing was wrong.
Caller: You know, passing up (unintelligible phrase), I would have been a nervous wreck.
Jones: Well, it- it’s- it’s possible that we’re being the brunt end of a conspiracy by, I’m sure, that people of uh, agencies would use lunatics. We went through this awful thing with uh, the mayor of Mayersville, Mississippi [Unita Blackwell Wright], I don’t know whether you saw in our paper, um, we caught ’em with a satchel between the wall, we don’t know whether it had a bomb or what. We went to see- We went to Congressman Burton [U.S. Rep. Philip Burton (D-Calif.)], tried to get something done about it. Uh, she’s quite a really, really articulate woman, a very ingenious person, and totally compassionate, committed. Uh, one of our sisters caught them, and uh, another- and then they tailed- then they hightailed it and they ran after them and got the license number of the car, and one of the men that works in the D.A.’s office uh, checked the license out, and run it- and chased it to a U-Rental car agency. Then, lo and behold, uh, we had a stoke of luck, um, you- the car rental agency had some sympathy and heart, and they revealed who had rented the car. And they’d rented it all the way in Sacramento. But in a lot- to make a long story short, they happened to be two highly, uh, high level officers of the Air Force from uh, Kessler Air Force Base, I think one of them a colonel and one of them a major, uh, working for the Air Force [Leon Joly, March Air Force Base engineer and Thomas Dawsey, electronics engineer from Mississippi] uh, then we had some uh, ministers who were friends uh, do a little investigation of their own down there, and uh, come up with the fact that they were uh, working uh- apart from their own uh, time in the service, for Senator Stennis who is, you know, on the CIA evaluation committee and on the Armed Services Committee, and they almost tried out- they almost worshipped him like he was a god. But we tried our damndest to get press, anybody, to do anything. The only people to pick it up was the black press, the minority press, uh, socialist-progressive press, no word- uh, the editor of the Chronicle‘s been very friendly with me, uh, as much as he can in his schizoid capacity, he’s been to our church several times, uh, likes us, he says, thinks we’re the best thing that ever happened, but he didn’t print it. He didn’t print it. And the- Burton- all he could get from them was denials, denials. Said yes, we have those two men but uh, we- uh, they didn’t do- uh, they were not in California. Well, they had damn proof they were in California.
Jones: Uh, it’s- it’s horrifying, and we wrote- that is, we wrote uh, Anderson then- Jack Anderson once said that anything he could do for us- I met him once- said anything he could do for us, he’d be glad to do it- wrote every liberal progressive columnist, and we didn’t get a word on that. And uh, what were they trying to do with the black satchel between our church uh- what is it, Mississippi, whatever, however far Mississippi is away uh, is where she’s from, Mayersville, Mississippi. Uh, I don’t know what they had in mind. They coulda been settin’ a bomb in there, I- surely they wouldn’t have needed to do surveillance, because, strangely enough, they were connected with the uh, electronics uh, division. Uh, it’s too easy to put a bugs on you these days. We found bugs on our phones, we found them under our building. Uh, that’s something you deal with all the time. You have to debug your place and uh- so has Cecil [Williams, minister at Glide United Methodist Church, San Francisco] to debug his, Carlton Goodlett and others, uh, we- Carlton Goodlett [publisher of San Francisco Sun-Reporter] and Cecil and myself and I don’t know how many others were even being monitored from the telephone company.
Caller: Is that true?
Jones: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yep. We got a woman who stepped forward and told us they were monitoring us. Uh, said she didn’t like it, didn’t know us, uh, she knew Karl [likely Karl Irvin, president of Northern California Disciples of Christ] and talked to him about it, but she didn’t know me, but she revealed all, they all being- the all of us being monitored at the same time. And uh, then this old rascal who’s uh, attacked A- Amos [Brown, minister at Third Baptist Church, San Francisco] about it has attacked us (unintelligible word) and uh, Goodlett and, oh, Yvonne [Golden, San Francisco educator] and uh, everyone- everyone progressive. Cecil. He blistered Cecil. Kinsolving [Newspaper columnist Lester Kinsolving]. He uh, he monitored our phones for two- two months. I had his ass in a bind. I really did have him in a proverbial bind, but the woman that stepped forward, a little frail lady who couldn’t stand it, even though she didn’t share my religious views and didn’t like my little four letter words, even though Jesus cussed the money-changers out of the temple, she uh- she said, I don’t like what they’re doing to you, and then I- the telephone people came from Sacramento office to investigate, and they said uh, wo- we can- we got a casehere, we can get ’em all fired, ’cause I had all the names. She provided me all the names, the hours, they did it around the clock, twenty-four hours, on every shift. There were that many bigots that was working with them, and of course, he was obviously paying them, and checked in on Tuesday and Thursday to get the information. But she would’ve had to step forward, and we would’ve had to identify our witness and- the little woman began to just tremble like she had malaria, and I- I- I said to the inspector, um, I came back, sh- I never iden- identified her even to the inspector, I came back and I said, the woman is fearful that uh, she’ll lose her job. He said, well, I can’t guarantee she won’t.
Jones: He said, there’s a lot of bigotry in that department. And I said, well man, you expect me- I said, you really do have a man over a barrel. Uh, I said, I got too much conscience to do that to a little lady who’s had the courage of her convictions, uh, and then- then- you- and all the evidence I had, I coulda put him away. But since, I guess, he- about three or fours weeks ago, they dropped him from the Washington press corps for taking bribes from corporations in Union of South Africa for sup- supporting apartheid policies and promoting it in his column, but nothing legally done to him, naturally, even though he took these bribes under false pretenses. If you got enough power and clout in this country, you’ll get by. You know how that is.
Jones: But uh, I- I uh- I don’t know whether this chap is working with him again, I- I don’t know. Uh, maybe since he’s been dropped from the Washington press corps, maybe old Kin is uh- (stumbles over words) that old columnist is back at us again. I don’t know. But we had not heard him since we sued him. And they mention that we sue, I- Uh, that’s another thing. He knows a lot about us, uh, with all of his lies, I think he said, we sue, didn’t he?
Jones: Yeah, well, we do. So the sucker knows some things about us, uh, but he’s just chosen to make all these weird weird allegations against us.
Caller: Well, maybe we get him out of the goddamn business (unintelligible phrase), he’s so worried that we blew his cover, he’s taken off-
Jones: Wonder what gave him the fear. Did he spot our people there?
Caller: No. No, he didn’t uh- He didn’t uh- He didn’t see them at all or anything. As a matter of fact, uh-
Jones: I called him through you, ’cause they- they didn’t understand you. They called me and said, he don’t want any pictures, but we can confront him. I said, ohh, I don’t believe that, I don’t- I don’t think he’d want that, uh, I would imagine- ’cause I thought they were going to pursue it further.
Caller: I don’t-
Jones: But then- But then-
Caller: I thought we might have to, you know, uh, later-
Caller: I mean, it depends on-
Jones: Well if it- Yeah, sure, if something comes up, but I- When I heard uh, after he left this business of trying to bait uh, Dennis out, I said, drop it, drop it, because uh, there’s something very devious in trying to get uh- get Dennis out like that, and I uh- Hell, it could be assassination. You don’t know how- They’re- They’re- They’re- They’re- They’re capable of any damn thing.
Jones: I mean, we have conspiracies to deal with. I could name you 15 different conspiracies to progressives, or friends of ours in different organizations. And I’m sure you know your own. (stumbles over words) We well know how uh, they did at Wounded Knee. Uh, so I- I’d say leave the- the- the sucker alone unless he tries to attack us. Then that’s another thing.
Caller: Yeah. I was uh- I was just waiting, you know, to find out, uh, you know, what (unintelligible word) was going to do, but then-
Jones: Well, I- Maybe uh- That’s what my attorneys feel like. I- My own temptation is to knock on his door and say hey, sucker, whatcha doing, but (Laughs) that isn’t uh- that worked in the old days, uh, but- And I- I never hit nobody in my life, but I’ll tell you, I get damn hostile. I- I- I really- I really do. They- They always accuse me of guns- I don’t own a goddamn gun. I hate guns, uh, because I know that- you know that uh, there- there’s so many of them, and uh, they end up uh, in the wrong hands and uh, I’d like to see a policy ofnone, but of course, I- I believe in everybody’s right to bear arms. As long as right wing N- Nazis has got ’em stashed away, I think everybody’s got a right to protect their home. Their home’s their castle. Uh, But I- I hate guns. He’s a liar. I never had no guns, never owned a gun- Never owned a gun. He can’t find a gun in my premises. I never owned a gun in my born days. So this sucker’s just too much. I’ve- I said- Dennis said something about it- or somebody told me, 150 damn guns.
Jones: Outrageous. Outrageous. And what would a hundred and fifty guns do? Shit. If you’re gonna fight, you better have fifteen hundred guns.
Jones: Uh- and who (unintelligible phrase)- what good would it do if you did incline yourself that way? But I do want to say – because I know my phone’s tapped – I do want to say, if they ever come in here, we will fight to the last man and woman. We’ve made up our mind. We’re not going to be carried away to no concentration camps. (Pause) I just- I- I really do sincerely mean that.
Caller: This is- uh, (unintelligible word) I don’t care where their mind is, but I’m positive yours would be. (Laughs)
Jones: What’d you say?
Caller: I say, I- I’m unsure at the present time whether my phone is tapped, but it used to be, but uh- I- I’d- I’m positive yours is.
Jones: Yeah, well.
(Two men talk over each other)
Jones: I’m- I’m the one- I’m the one that’s doing the talking. You didn’t say anything.
Caller: No, I don’t- I don’t mean that. I was just (unintelligible word)- you know, I’m sure they’re listening, because uh-
Jones: Well, I got a right to defend myself. I got a right to defend myself, if people come in here to try to (unintelligible word)- to hurt my children and uh, hurt our people, I’d- I’d rather die. I’d rather die than to go through what the Chileans are going through, and we’re having to feed every- every month and all (stumbles over words), the people, the torture that’s being conducted by the CIA and other multinationals, transnationals, in Union of South Africa where women’s breasts are being cut off, little babies dropped off seventeenth floor windows, like the secretary of President Allende [deposed president of Chile, Salvador Allende], to try to get her to talk, let her, let her come in to see her husband, uh, toes cut off, uh, piece by piece up to his uh, hip bone, and then finally (stumbles over words) gouge his eyes out and cut his penis off. I- I- No, they won’t do that to me, nor my loved ones, they’ll have to kill me first. I mean that. I’m really at that point. And uh, probably they’re- they’re trying to provoke us into some kind of offensive action. We will not do that. We’re not militants. We do not- I mean, in terms of trying to start anything. We don’t want anything but peace. But I don’t see- I’ve never- I never saw where the Germans gained a thing by going off- when the Jews aimlessly went off and marched into their own death. I don’t think you gain a thing by that. (Pause)
Caller: Well, possibly this man has uh- (laughs) We must have scared him completely out of the country.
Jones: Well, I hope- I hope- because- but I doubt it. I- I imagine that was another one of his ruses. (unintelligible phrase)
Caller: (short unintelligible reply)
Jones: Why would he be scared? Anybody’s had him- (stumbles over words) We didn’t even know him.
Caller: (unintelligible under Jones) I mean, the way, you know, he was going around, I didn’t uh- I didn’t even know he’d called, and I- (unintelligible sentence). And so, one of us must have (unintelligible phrase)
Jones: Oh, he accused you of tipping him?
Jones: Dennis didn’t say that he accused you of tip-
Caller: No, he didn’t. I guess he said that one of uh, somebody here must have tipped. He didn’t say whether it was Dennis or me or somebody else, or (unintelligible word). One of us, you know. But he was kind of a (unintelligible phrase), uh, here, you know, his not knowing either one. (unintelligible under Jones’ interruption)
Jones: Well, I’d think he’d know you tipped. Ah, he- he’s a moron to- to- to have tried it in the first place. I- I- That blows my mind. If he’d gone to the John Birch Society, or the Nazi Party, or the White Citizens Council, or uh, one of those rightwing groups, uh, then that makes some sense.
Caller: Well, at first, you know, when he- before he was ever (unintelligible phrase)- I’d rather have your word that you won’t say anything.
Jones: Oh well, no, you know, he wouldn’t take the word of a progressive, uh, against another progressive, because progressives certainly would not be cutting each other’s throats. There’s something fishy, awfully fishy about this.
Caller: Well- Well, this is what- Dennis looked over at me and I looked at him on the way to the (unintelligible word) room, and he says uh- he says, now I can’t tell you, unless you give me your word. Then we- There was a long silence that was kind of, uh, you know, kind of uh, (unintelligible word) silence, and finally Dennis says, well, I’m might uh, give you my word I won’t uh- I won’t say anything to anybody else, but he said uh, you know, I might- I might talk to- (unintelligible phrase)- but anyway- he says, no, I gotta have your complete word (unintelligible phrase)- Oh, no, Dennis says uh, I mo- I (unintelligible word) give you my word I won’t tell anybody else, but I- I’m gonna talk to my lawyer. (unintelligible phrase) Well, that’s okay. And then finally, uh, I wrote him and said, okay, we’ll give you our word, (unintelligible name). And so uh, Dennis said, yeah, we’ll give you our word. Then uh- (unintelligible sentence)
Caller: And uh-
Jones: Well, he- he hates us, all right.
Caller: (unintelligible reply)
Jones: He hates us and obviously hates Dennis, because if he had uh- be just as advantageous to him. I- Really, first place, I don’t know if he’s got a case against somebody, which he doesn’t, unless it’s a contrived one, a frame-up, uh, if he- if he did have a case against us, he wouldn’t need nobody. What does he need people for, but to uh- He said the T-men already had proof proof proof, I’d- I read in Dennis’ notes, he had proof proof proof of all these things. Uh- Why would he need your- It- It makes no sense at all.
Caller: (reply under Jones voice)
Caller: Why would he- You know, with uh, all the supposedly uh, I mea n, he’s got all this proof, he wouldn’t- why would he come up with all (balance unintelligible under Jones’ interruption)
Jones: No, I- It really doesn’t- it really doesn’t figure. If you’ve got corroboration, you don’tneed another- you don’t want to risk uh, leaking it, if they were really under investigation ofus, which I wouldn’t be surprised if uh, any of these people investigating us, that doesn’t shock me, because of all the things that my friends have gone through in otherorganizations. Uh- I- I don’t doubt that at all. Uh, but if- if indeed we were being investigated, why would he want to risk blowing it? Secondly, why would you do- You’re, after all, the prominent person who’s not having any trouble at all, uh, with the uh, the present authorities. Why wouldn’t he want you preferably to go, rather than another man who uh, has something hanging over his head. It doesn’t make any sense, unless he was trying to uh, uh, threaten him, intimidate him and thought Dennis would be weak enough to be intimidated, to lie against Peoples Temple out of fear – which they’ve always worked on in Nazi Germany and Union of South Africa – they’ll get somebody that’s got something uh, on them, and try to manipulate that person into saying something. Yeah, but- He ought to know Dennis better than that. How- However, they- they- You can’t tell- You always see in others what’s in yourself. Uh, if the miscalculation may come, it’s because, if he were in Dennis’ position, then he might tend to live that way. So, being that that would be his modus operandi, modus (unintelligible word), he would automatically feel that Dennis would uh, play into his hands. Or something worse. I hope it wasn’t a set-up to uh, get Dennis out. But of course, it didn’t work, whatever- uh, however, uh, by the fact that he gave a phone and a name, and uh, my- my bishop knew of this person, if it is the same person indeed, uh, the only thing that broke down was, he said uh, he had been divorced many years because his wife considered him a fringe nut uh, and uh, he’d fallen out with our former bishop and uh, broken- uh, tr- tried to tear up the minister’s character – which fits him – and uh, did split up a church. Uh, uh, then, uh- but was a druggist. I don’t know how you move from a druggist to a clerk into uh, Standard Oil, because you don’t have any trouble getting jobs if you’re a druggist. Uh, that don’t make any of uh, uh, sense, uh, because Dennis, I think, or you, one told me he was a clerk. Uh-
Caller: I was out, uh, out of the room uh, (unintelligible word), I missed about three-quarters of it, you know, and then uh- (balance unintelligible under Jones)
Jones: Well, that’s too bad- Well, I- I- I got Dennis’ notes. He kindly sent his notes. And it’sin there, that- Dennis- Dennis took pretty uh, thorough notes, and uh, it’s in there, that uh, he uh, was a uh, clerk at Standard Oil, connected with Standard Oil, or owned Standard Oil stationary, something like that.
Caller: Well, I saw that uh, too, because when I looked down at his stationary, which was Standard Oil, you know, and then uh, I thought, well- well, he didn’t even try to hide that.
Jones: Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm. (unintelligible word) Well, maybe that was a ruse. Uh, but it don’t make any sense, ’cause you got a man- he ga- he gave phone numbers and he checked the phones- I- I don’t know anything about it. I don’t know anything about it. But I- I just thought I’d check back, being that we had- Uh, the fool uh, or his wife, if she indeedwas his wife, called one of our people, uh, Mrs. Johnson, as I understand it, Laura Johnson [likely Laura Johnston], and told her that you people had set him up to try to get something on us. So, then that must have been after he talked to uh, Dennis last night. Uh, so-
Caller: (Laughs) No kidding.
Jones: Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I’m telling the truth.
Caller: (unintelligible word under Jones) (Laughs)
Jones: Now I don’t know. I have no way of verifying who it was, but uh, that’s the namethat was given. They- Same name- Conn [David Conn, allegedly with Treasury Department and IRS]. Conn or Cone.
Caller: Yeah, Conn, I guess it is.
Jones: Yeah. Well. That’s the same one. I uh- Not to uh- Not to ease, when you can find characters like that who will do- try to destroy. But, let’s- let’s expect that, uh, it will happen. Democracy’s on its demise. The multinationals have so much technology that uh, when the economics gets bad enough, we’re all in danger and uh, I guess most of us know that. If we don’t, we’re not very bright.
Jones: Okay, I won’t take more of your- your, uh, Saturday even ing-
Caller: Well, Jim, I- I’m glad you called, and uh, don’t worry, uh, I don’t think anybody would believe that nut anyway-
Jones: Well, I think some would. Yes, I do think some would. But I think- Uh, because, you know, the right wing and racists are prepared to believe almost anything on us. I think they’d believe that we’d rape our own babies, uh, we who are in the Third World. I really do think that uh- because people have sincerely- To show you an example of (stumbles over words) Reverend Amos Brown, Third Baptist Church, got – uh, this is off the record – but got three letters about Reverend Cecil Williams. And he believed these uh, damn letters, and they were, you know- who would believe anything written anonymous, or some first name or whatever the hell, I don’t remember what it was, but I think he did believe it. Wo- I think he did. I think he believed it, because Cecil don’t happen to do things the way he does it. Uh, that’s– that’s one thing that the uh, the enemy has, the CIA, the conspiracy, whatever in the hell it may be, those who want to break uh, progressive non-violent forces working for change within society, they’ve got that going for them, there’s a hell of a lot of paranoia, there’s a wo- a great willingness to be cynical, and believe the worst about people. You don’t hear much uh, pa- promotion of good things about people, but you sure hear a hell of a lot of bad.
Jones: Yeah, you know, people don’t praise you much for what you do, but they’ll sure knock you, if they think they can uh, pick on anything or frame anything to do it. A lot- a lot of people I’m talking about. And there’s just not enough support. The coalitions are weak, I was so disgusted with this rally- rally on the liberation of South Africa, of the 1500 people gathered there, I want to tell you with sadness, thirteen hundred and sixty people were from Peoples Temple.
Caller: Thirteen hundred-
Jones: And sixty people.
Caller: (unintelligible short reply)
Jones: That’s what it was. Uh, I had to wait- I- We had Dennis- They did this very carefully, they put all these speakers that I want to support to the end. And so we had to hold in there. And we wanted to do some work, prune some grapes, we had a chance to make a little money, because we’re feeding so many people here every day, uh, three meals, and we had a chance to go out, a rancher had offered us that opportunity, but we didn’t get to do it, and- and they- we’d done some uh, inventory work at the emporium store, and another store called us, we did such a good job, we coulda got so much an hour, uh, and a lot of people at so much an hour can do an inventory job in four hours. But here we sat five hours in that damn rally, and they put every good speaker I wanted to hear, the very last, and [San Francisco community activist] Enola Maxwell and Joe Biones (phonetic) of the International Hotel, and they put [San Francisco activist] Dennis Wade, the end too, uh, and you know, way down the line. I told (unintelligible word), I said I gotta go and uh, be gone, our people gotta be gone this time. No, we can set through the rally. But they trapped us into that rally, uh, not that- I’m not- you know, I can understand the need for a- a crowd, but if we hadn’texplained to him, we were reluctant to go in the first place, uh, because of it, but uh, they sure knew how to work it, they put Yvonne Golden right on the end of- who I love, she’s such a wonderful woman. Uh, (stumbles over words) I’m not encouraged by the uh, unity, the coalition, I think there must have been 30 coalitions there, if 30 coalitions can only produce uh, three or four people apiece, that’s (draws out word) bad news. Really bad news. Uh, when Peoples Temple has to be most of the rally- At the International Hotel, I can safely say, we were three out of four people that marched around there to keep the- the police from breaking in that night, uh, when they were getting ready to evict them forcefully. Uh, it- it’s ve- it’s very, very sad. The apathy that you see everywhere- Well, I don’t even want to think about it, I don’t want to be depressed, I don’t want to depress you. Go and have a good evening.
Caller: Okay, Jim. Don’t worry, uh, (unintelligible sentence). I mean, uh-
Jones: Well, if they do, they (unintelligible word) if they do. You- you can’t control what people believe. And I can only control what I do. I know I’m a good man. I follow all the conscience I can follow, and work as hard as anybody. I really work too hard. Uh-
Caller: Well, if we can- uh, uh, I’m sure Dennis feels the same way, if we can help in any way, would- (unintelligible under Jones interruption) anyway possible.
Jones: Well, I- I know. I appreciate it. You did good there, it’s just uh, it’s just an endless kind of morass, but I- it was good. Least- Maybe he’ll be a little more careful before he lies the next time. Let’s hope so.
Caller: Okay. (Laughs)
Jones: Take care, (unintelligible name- Frank? Fred?).
Caller: Take care, Jim.
Jones: (while phone rings) Tell [Mike] Prokes to be sure and get to uh, Brown-
Jones: Hello, is uh, Yvonne there?
Male: Hold on. (sets down phone)
Jones: (aside) Get to Reverend Brown, who’s a friend (unintelligible phrase). I’ll be damned if (unintelligible phrase) (Pause) (unintelligible) (Pause)
Jones: Are you not well, Yvonne?
Jones: This is Jim Jones. Are you not well?
Golden: Oh, hi, darling, how are you? No, I have a cold. I’ve taken a cold.
Jones: Well, I’m sorry.
Golden: Well, how- how are you doing? I called about you yesterday-
Jones: Yes, that’s what I was responding to. I’ve been (Pause) fighting uh, you know- we’ve been threatened and harassed, and I think uh, just got to me. By the way, Ubalde [Tony Ubalde, United Methodist minister] called me, uh, Reverend Ubalde, and said he got one of those nasty letters about you.
Jones: Someone, uh- someone thinks they may have got one here, but they started to read it and threw it away, so I- I don’t know, (unintelligible under Golden interruption)
Golden: Yeah, yeah. You know that Maxwell called us, said she got one also.
Jones: Oh, dear.
Golden: Isn’t that terrible?
Jones: Well, I hope they have fun.
Golden: Oh, that’s so- it’s just- it’s so childish, and so stupid, and just so, I don’t know. It’s really terrible.
Jones: Yeah, yeah. Well, it’s a sick generation.
Golden: Well, how do you feel? How do you feel?
Jones: Very tired, but I- Who wouldn’t, pushing like I have been.
Golden: Oh, yeah, you know, everyone was calling me to ask me if you were in the hospital. And I said, no, not that I know of. And I called that afternoon.
Jones: No, no, that’s where the- the doctor thinks I ought to have some time to- a long time ago, I should take a long rest. I don’t know. Uh, (unintelligible phrase), I’m going to have to do something, we may have to get away, and uh, try to uh- I don’t know what’s going on. It’s just too much happening. That’s all. Just too much-
Golden: I know, but just take your time, will you? Uh, take your time. Don’t try to go away. I mean, go away and rest someplace, you know.
Jones: Yeah, yeah. That’s what-
Golden: But to come back.
Jones: Oh, yeah, yeah, I- I- But I meant- That’s what I meant.
Golden: You gotta go to L.A. tomorrow, right?
Jones: Can’t do it.
Golden: Oh, you can’t do it.
Jones: Can’t do it. They’ve advised me to do it, because of the- the threat down there. Threatened to bomb, threatened to- uh, I’m getting so many threats- This is outrageous.
Golden: Oh, that’s terrible. That’s outrageous.
(Talk over each other)
Jones: The office- office of- offered to represent those uh, reporters who work for theExaminer who had exposed all that the former D.A. and those cops did to that- that little Chinese young man, and framed him for murder.
Golden: Yeah. Uh-huh.
Jones: That Lee boy, and uh- uh- The Examiner– and I won’t even- won’t even give ’em support- uh, won’t even defend their own reporters against the cops who are suing them. And the uh, attorney’s going to cost them twenty-some thousand dollars. And we offered some assistance. By God, they wasn’t two days till we got threatened that if we did that, we’d be smeared. I don’t know who in the hell some of these people are, but I- I’ll tell you there’s a real conspiracy.
Jones: It’s a real conspiracy.
Golden: Oh, that’s terrible. I don’t know who they are either, because that letter is really just- really such a sick letter about me. It’s so dumb.
Jones: Are they all the same?
Golden: Yeah, they’re all of the same so far, (unintelligible balance of sentence). I was supposed to be uh – (ponders) what am I supposed to be working for? – (unintelligible name) and uh, and (unintelligible name) as far as a reward of a city post- that I’m about to be getting, I’m about to become- be appointed some big city post, and it’ll all be done, because I was- I was in a- I would meet with (same unintelligible name) to tell who the (unintelligible word) are sexually having, going to bed with, something-
Jones: Well, I- I- That’s just stupid. I don’t know how anybody could believe that.
Golden: That’s wh- That’s terrible. (unintelligible phrase) It really is stupid. And uh-
Jones: (unintelligible intro) to get somebody to believe something, they’ll try it more likely on Cecil and me.
Golden: Oh, yeah. (Laughs) Oh, yeah. But I didn’t (unintelligible word) about Cecil, that he was on the CIA and uh, uh- (voice trails)
Golden: No, no, no, no. That’s the one I got before. No, no, I haven’t seen the new one. And I have not seen one on you.
Jones: Well, some have got some.
Golden: That’s what Cecil told me. Oh, that’s terrible. That’s terrible. Well, Jim, keep your chin up, (unintelligible word).
Jones: Oh, I will, I will, but I- I’m telling you, I don’t like the way America is, I don’t like (unintelligible word)
Golden: Oh, ain’t that- I know it. That’s terrible, that it happens. The way I’m seeing, it looks like you can’t last by tomorrow morning.
Jones: No, no, (unintelligible phrase), it’s very short-lived.
Jones: Here we’re saying, here we are. (unintelligible word) A dust bowl from Dakota (unintelligible word) over to Honolulu, 16 cities in Oklahoma will. We can run out of water within uh, eleven days, 16 cities in Oklahoma alone. It’s just like the prelude to the great crash of ’29.
Golden: Yes, yes. (Balance under Jones)
Jones: And then the economic situation is so corrupt, and that stupid uh, chief of staff, uh, George Brown, head of the military [Joint] Chiefs of Staff said today that there oughtn’t to be any civil liberties and- and uh-
Golden: Oh, yes. That- that was a horrible statement he made. That- That anybody who’s worried about anybody opening letters, that the letters should be opened, because maybe they are doing something wrong.
Golden: Oh. That’s horrible. That’s horrible.
(Talk over each other)
Jones: Congress was interfering too much with the military-
Golden: Yes. Oh, that- that sounds so fascist.
Jones: Oh, he’s a- well, we’ll have a coup. You watch it, you watch it. We- we- we will- we better- always have- be prepared, ’cause the Jews waited too long-
Golden: Yeah, that’s right.
Jones: And- and it’s a- and all the tortures we’ve done abroad with- when the- when the tentacles are forced back home and cut off, you can believe that those big ruling elite, the corporate elite, if they fight for their territory 8000 miles away in Africa and 10,000 miles away, you sure as hell know they’re going to fight in their own backyard.
Golden: That’s right. (unintelligible under Jones) Exactly.
Jones: You know, one thing our people have never come to terms with, we as black people have never had a war uh, uh, our nation, one of our nations, a black nation at war.
Golden: That’s right. That’s right.
Jones: The Japanese, uh, that’s parallel about racism, the Germans weren’t uh, picked up, but the Japanese were.
Golden: That’s right. That’s right.
Jones: And uh- we assume that if it isn’t Zaire, it’s gonna be Rhodesia or Zimbabwe.
Golden: Oh yes. Oh yes. Oh no, of course it is.
Jones: Uh- Union of South Africa, our people are going to be free, and it’s the richest continent in the world, and the moment, the very moment I heard a colonel say it, up in Washington-
Golden: That’s right. That’s right.
Jones: -mer- very moment that the government goes to war, the United States government goes to war with one of our black nations, our sister and brother nations in Africa, then atthat moment, every black will be rounded up in- (balance under Golden)
Golden: Of course. Of course. That was the same as they did to Japanese. I was saying that to the (unintelligible word) today, don’t you know- don’t you ever think that you’re going (unintelligible phrase) that the black man- especially those (unintelligible phrase).
Jones: Well, they- you know, they (unintelligible phrase). They round up every Japanese. They didn’t leave any of them. Even the Uncle Tom-sans and the Aunt Jane-sans.
Golden: That’s right. That’s right. Oh, no, that’s right.
Jones: But they don’t trust us. This is a racist co- uh, country, not one German was arrested.
Golden: That’s right.
Jones: Well, I guess a few, but not, no, no, no, there was no investigation-
Golden: Oh, no, no, (unintelligible phrase) harbored the Nazis, the ones that they know that paerticipate. And uh, and uh, and the, and the- with the Nazi party, I mean in Germany. Those people who were- who were- who were brutal k- killers, you know, and did that whole Hitler movement, they’ve only been able to find- find refuge in the- here in the United States of America.
Jones: Yeah. A whole lot of ’em. Immigration trying to get out, including the head of the Romanian Orthodox Church who murdered children in (unintelligible under Golden interruption)-
Golden: That’s right. (unintelligible)
Jones: -hung ’em up like, uh, hung ’em up. Stamped Kosher uh, on their- Kosher meat on their buttocks.
Golden: Oh, that’s so terrible.
Jones: He’s living in a 54-room mansion outside Detroit.
(talk over each other)
Jones: This test case- this test case, as Newsweek says, uh, we gotta stop these religious groups and other groups that are getting together, because they could be a threat to the government. (unintelligible sentence) I don’t like those movies at all. But-
(talk over each other)
Golden: That’s a bad precedent.
Jones: The head of the ACLU says that’s one of the dang- the dangerous thing to the First Amendment rights he’s ever seen.
Golden: That’s right.
Jones: Somebody could put a conservatorship over you, when you’re an adult, and uh, put you away and run cold water over you-
Golden: That’s right.
Jones: -and you- and completely take you away from life and liberty, and- and then they call it deprogramming, it’s like oil wells, uh, pro- programming. On the contrary–
Golden: That’s right. That’s right. They- And they can charge any- any- any uh, religious uh, group with that kind of uh-
(talk over each other)
Jones: -Socialist Workers Party’s done that kind of thing in New York.
Golden: Oh, that’s so bad. (unintelligible phrase) really bad. That looks really bad.
Jones: Yeah, (unintelligible sentence)
Golden: That’s right. That’s the truth. Are you all going to be here tomorrow or not?
Golden: Oh, you’re not going to be going tomorrow?
Jones: No, I’m going to have to rest.
Golden: Well, that’s right. Well, that’s right. Yeah, well, (unintelligible phrase)
Golden: Is there anything I can (unintelligible word) get for you, anything?
Jones: No, take care of your own cold.
Golden: Oh, I am. That’s why I’m in the bed now to take ca- absolute (unintelligible phrase)
Jones: Well, go right back now, honey.
Jones: Take care of yourself.
Golden: And say hello to your wife and family.
Jones: Will do. Bye-bye.
Golden: Thanks a lot for calling. Bye-bye.
End of side one
Tape originally posted February 2005