Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.
(Editor’s note: Because of the many verbal fillers and false starts in this original transcript, a version of this tape edited for clarity appears here.)
Stephan Jones: When I was uh, little, we– you know, we had a nuclear family, and it was– it was really– it was great because uh, (Pause) I don’t know, we never– we never had discipline the way– I mean, one of the things that struck me, I knew when I’d done wrong, and I think I felt much worse– Dad had a way of making me know that, I mean, what I had done was wrong. He never put a hand to me, but I felt– I mean, I’ve been spanked by teachers and stuff like that, and all it ever did to me was, like, you know, make me hate, and it– and I’d have so–a way of uh, taking my mind on what I’d done wrong and directing my– you know, I’d be hostile to the person that spanked me, but he had a way of making me feel like– like I was– you know, I mean, he knew– he knew how to make me know I’d done wrong. But we never had the violence in the family, none of the spanking, none of the, you know, the parents argued over different matters of dis– you know, they disagreed over some, but it was– I don’t know, it was just a good atmosphere, you know. And there was never favorites, because they– they knew– I mean, I think it was they had to– in their own mind, they had to prove that they– they uh, didn’t favor their natural born over their adopted children, because you’d think they– they knew the children’d have conflict over that. And uh, I don’t know, it just– we had– they always had time for us, and Dad always had time for us, and uh, used to wrestle around with us and stuff and– and show us love at the same time, and talk about it, and talk with us about what was right and wrong and everything. It was just uh– uh– you know, anything you could imagine uh, good about a family, uh, that’s what it was. And as I got older, Dad got more involved with people, ‘cause he knew he had something to offer, and we all knew he had something to offer to mankind, and so he– people started coming in and seeing his goodness, and uh, more and more, he was pulled away from me, you know, and– not just me but all of us, and he had less time for us, and he– you know, you could tell– you could see– I mean, it hurt– I think it hurt him– I know it hurt him more than it hurt us, because (Pause) (Sighs) which only combined it– combined, you know– It was– It was sort of a combination with us, because not only did we feel hurt, because uh, we didn’t have the time, but we also could see his hurt, that he didn’t have the time with us. And uh, it made me– it made me hostile, very hostile, because one thing– the only thing I ever had to identify with was– was the nuclear family, was our family, because nobody could– nobody ever tried to understand– you know, everybody h– hated– For whatever reason, they just– you know– When you don’t understand something, you usually strike out against it, you know, other than try to understand, and they just couldn’t understand me having a black– black brother [Jim Jones Jr.] and– and an Asiatic brother [Lew Jones] and sister [Suzanne Jones Cartmell], and it was a– a conflict with me and anybody that I would try to make friends with. So the only thing I had was– was the family, and I saw– you know, I– I saw it falling apart, and it made me uh, withdraw, really bad, and I– the only thing I would– I– I don’t know that– also I– I started to uh, you know, care about animals. That’s when I started my thing with animals because they– they were all I had, you know, and uh, as long as I gave to them, they would give something to me, and uh, then I kinda pulled away from people. So I guess it kinda– uh, I mean, that was a good aspect of my– you know, uh, that was a good part of my life, ‘cause animals had been, you know, fulfilling to me and stuff. But uh, I– it was hard for me to come to realize that– that I had– that– that Dad had something to off– to offer, and being a kid, it just– I just could not– you know, I– I just never uh, took into– to mind that uh– It was selfish of me to think that I could uh, ha– have all of su– such a uh, advanced, uh, mind and person, because he was far, you know– he’s far ahead of m– of most people, uh, intellectually and uh– He knows what’s right and he’s uh, been blessed with compassion, but at the same time, he’s always had the ability to let you know when he stands on a subject, and uh– and I’ve never known anyone to uh, not respect what he has to say. And uh–
Woman Interviewer: So what was it like when uh, maybe– maybe you were (unintelligible word) teenager (unintelligible word), when he started maybe developing a communal lifestyle for his people, and not just people who came to his church maybe once a week, but–
Stephan Jones: Mm-hmm [Yes].
Interviewer: – turn into uh, a close knit community, maybe, I don’t know if it was in Indianapolis or if it was in San Francisco– I mean, rather Redwood Valley when it started it. How old were you when you started to have to really share your Dad with, you know, a– a larg– larger community that was really close-knit, and it pulled on him, on his energy and his resources to a much– a much greater extent than– than any other dad that you knew.
Stephan Jones: Well. I’d say I was probably eight or nine when– when we started uh– when we started– and Dad had turned towards a more uh, commun– communal way of life, you know, uh, not just uh, the nuclear family, but– but anyone that believed what he believed and stuck with him, was part of the family. Which now, you know, I see that’s right and I know that’s right, and it’s been– it’s made my life a lot better, you know, having people that you can fall back on and– and know you can rely on, but at that time, it– I saw my Dad just– just drained, I mean, what– what used to be a– uh, uh, a li– a lively person, and a– and an energetic person, just– it just– it just– just started to fade before my eyes, I mean, you could just see– see him just drained to the point of uh, you know, near death. I mean I– I– From that time on, it was– there was nothing for me to think that, you know, Dad’s only got a– at the most a couple of years, you know. I mean, I– I’m to this day surprised that he’s made it as long as he has, you know, because he always made a point to talk to me, and you know, let me let me know about my responsibilities if he– if he isn’t always with us. And it was the loving thing to do, because I– it– I don’t know what I’d do if– if– I’m ready for it now, but at that time, it would’ve just– I would’ve just gone completely insane if he– if I’d lost him, because he’d been my only identification point, the only thing I had, you know, to uh, keep me in touch with reality, because everybody seems so cold and so distant and so selfish, and uh– It made me really hostile, I mean– like you know, I’m surprised that I just didn’t totally (Pause) turn away from uh, uh, what we believe, and– and– and just become a totally selfish– you know, and self– you know, just totally self-centered– centered person, you know, and– because it made me hostile because I had lost everything that seemed good to me, uh. ‘Course, it was later replaced by something that’s even better, you know. A– a better security because there’s– there’s no secure– I mean, there’s a– Dad made me feel secure, but what is one man or one family against a– a very hostile world? But uh, it made me ho– it– it– it turned me against that way of life, and it made me uh, very uh, withdrawn, it made people dislike me at the same time because I– I was– I was nasty, and I was uh– I always thought I was right and I– and I never would shut my mouth, and I would– and I started fights over little things, and I’d turn– you know, I would– became what most people would call a– I can’t think of the word for it, but uh, you know, I– I woulda– would’ve ended up in, you know, some sort of uh, reform school if it hadna been for my dad, you know, keeping me, you know– I haven’t– Parents that cared about me and I could go and talk to because I’d– I had totally uh– I had become hostile to the world and people in general, because I felt they were taking something from me, but now I see I didn’t– you know, I dis– I deserve– they deserved it just as much as I did. But uh– (Pause) Where–
Music for several seconds
Stephan Jones: Uh– I was– We lived in Indianapolis up till about– up until the– the early 60s, because uh, at that time, before we left Indianapolis, Dad was uh, pastoring a church, and the way he could see it, he was kind of fighting a– a losing battle because people were drawing from him but never making any kind of commitments to any– any ideals, and uh, he knew that in Brazil and– and– which is where we went and– and other Third World nations, that– that uh, there were people starving that would be appreciative of what he had to offer, and at least he could do something for somebody, instead of wasting his life on people that were– were– and– you know, by no means ready to make any kind of commitment, so we uh– we left, I guess it must’ve been in ’62 or something for Brazil, and uh, we set right off– you know, I don’t remember much, but I know that Dad set up a– set right in to setting up an orphanage for– for all the children that– that their parents had just died off. The only thing I remember about it is that I never had a shortage of playmates, and I just– and I thought it was just great, because I always had somebody to go out and play with, and– and they never, you know, looked down on me for– for having a black brother, because they were all– uh, they were all darker complected. But uh, I just remember that– that we’d be eating because uh, no matter how– you know, Dad never would live high, you know, he– we always would live in the– the– the poorer sections of town and– and uh– because he didn’t want to lose that identification. Plus he didn’t feel right– he didn’t feel right living higher or anything, because– but he always kept– made sure that we were fed and that we had the little things that he feels– feels children should have. But uh, I remember that people would constantly be coming to the door wanting food and needing something, because they were starving, just right and left, I mean, it just– I mean, we had lived what would be considered poor in the– in the United uh– in the United States, but when we came down there, I was just– it just– it just shocked me to see how people s– you know, how– how people are forced to live in so many places, and it– it was hard for me to cope with for a long time, because it was just– I don’t know, it was– it was– I just never even imagined that people could be so degraded and so uh, malnour– nourished and– and– and so without anything, I mean, they had nothing. It was everything they could do to uh, just keep their uh, their– their families alive, and themselves alive. And they– (tape edit)
I mean, uh, in a place like this, Dad always had something to do, he was always, you know, getting things done from the– the orphanage where he was seeing about somebody, so he was away from the house quite a bit, and uh, up till that point, I had always uh– Strangely enough, I’d identified with my father more than I had with my mother [Marceline Jones], because he always presented both sides, you know, that this– the strong figure but at the same time, the loving figure. So I didn’t see how I needed anything else, but with him gone, I kinda had to turn to my mother, and I think from her, I got a lot of my uh, uh– my compassion. I mean, I had– I never felt like I had to prove anything to people, at least not at that time, and I– I felt like I could say I loved somebody, I knew I could cry and not feel like I was a sissy or (short laugh)– or– or– or weird, and uh– So I’m– I kinda got a good– a good balance of uh, (pause) uh, I don’t know, I just got a good balance. And uh, I also had another woman that lived with us that was, you know– She– She was uh– She received a salary from us, but she really didn’t do anything but– but, you know, she lived with us and she was kinda like a second mother, and she kinda– It was a good experience for me, because she was so down to earth, you know, she was so practical because that’s– that’s the only way she knew to survive, is, you know, you had to be matter-of-fact, you couldn’t get into a whole bunch of uh, (Pause) fai– fairy tale and– and niceties because it was– it was uh, a hard world, but she– but she– I remember we went uh, one time to– ‘cause she’d go home every weekend and visit her family, and– and– and see how they were, and– and uh– which– which also, you know, was– was shocking to me because you had– my parents always could find time, you know, to give us love and everything, but she wa– she– uh, she had to make money or they– they would’ve died, so she didn’t have any time to see them but on weekends, and I went home with her one time, and it just– it was terrible. I mean, you look– they look– she lived on a mountain, on a little hill, and you just looked around, and the rains had washed half the houses down the hill, people were walking around trying to rebuild their little huts that were just made out of scrap, they– they’d go to the– I mean, it’s– it just looked like a junkyard. And it just had a– a hell of an impact on me, because I’d never, you know, realized that people could live like that. (Pause)
Uh. After being in Brazil for about– for a couple of years, I don’t know the exact time, it became evident to my Dad and– that– that uh, there was gonna be a– some sort of rightwing takeover, because uh, there was too much unrest in the people, and they were– they were getting tired of their– of their living conditions and the way they were being oppressed, and uh– and Dad knew, it– it wa– was sure what would happen, so we got out of there. And uh, sure enough, eventually, there was a– a stronger– a stronger government was put in– in power and it was– but anyway, we got– we got out and we went back to Indiana (clears throat) and uh–
Person off mike: David George around?
Stephan Jones: Uh-uh [No]. No. (short laugh) And we uh– so anyway, we were going back to Indiana for a short while, there’s only at the most, I think, a couple– a year and a half, and uh, it was about that time that when– that I was– I started school. I went to kindergarten. And before that time, I had been– I had never really ventured out into the world much, and I’d stayed, you know– only– the only thing I knew about the world was my family. And uh, and it was– it was hard for me, because ever– you know, ever since I can remember, I had a black brother, and I had a uh– a Korean brother and sister, and until I was well along in life, they wa– I was– I wasn’t even told that they weren’t my natural brother and sister, I didn’t– I hadn’t– you know, I– I thought that they had come from the same place I had, you know, ‘cause we’d always been taught that, that nobody was any different, and I just couldn’t understand. I mean, it– It was just– I– It was just– It just seemed irrational to me, I mean, it just didn’t even– There’s no way I could understand that I was acceptable to these people, but my brothers and sisters weren’t. And uh, from the start, I was– I was incorrigible. But uh, I guess after a while, I learned– I learned to uh– to cope with it and then I– I– I did better in school, but I was only in school for like a half of year, I was in kindergarten in Indiana, and then we moved out to uh, Redwood Valley, because uh, the people were starting to uh, call us up on the phone and shoot at us and just mess with our car and just anything– you know, they were just– they were starting to harass us, is all they was trying to do, and Dad, once again, we had to run. We had to get out of there, because he wanted to protect his family. And not just meaning us. There were other people that were loyal to him and– and he cared about, and we all made the move. But my mother and– and Jimmy and I were the first– first to go, ‘cause we came out and we kind’ve got the house and– and cleaned up and all that, before everybody else came. But uh– So I started– I started first grade in Redwood Valley, and if anything, it was worse. I mean, there was nobody. I– We– We lived in– in Indianapolis, we lived in the– the– the poor area, and we lived in the black area, so I went to school with a lot of, you know– there were at least some black children in– in school, but there was nobody here. I mean, it was just– it was unbelievable. And they– I mean, they acted like they’d never seen a black person before, they acted like they were inhuman, you know, I– I’d had to had– you know, I could– you– You’d hear the chants every day, and eventually you just kinda got immune to it, but– At least one thing that was different about uh, Redwood Valley, I wasn’t acceptable either. I mean, we were all unacceptable. My– my brothers and sisters were unacceptable because they were colored, and I was unacceptable because I accepted them. So uh, at least I could understand that, I mean, I could understand that people– (Pause) people would be people. But at least I felt like uh– I once again had an identification with my family, and they– I– I didn’t have to worry about them resenting me. (Pause)
Uh, pretty much all my early years, I– I mean, I knew that– that we were different, that people saw us as different, and that we weren’t, you know, that– well, just that we were different, but– but I always thought that they would just stay there, I mean, I would have my family, we would feel how we feel, and– and everyone else would feel how they feel, and that I could– it would stay that way, and then– then I– it all one day just kinda all came crashing down on me, when– that– that that wasn’t true, because uh– I was about 12 years old, uh, I was out in the parking lot– (Pause) I was out in the parking lot and uh, somebody sh– Dad got shot and I’m just– you know, I just remember the loud noises and I just– I don’t know any– and all the people when I ever– you know, there were hundreds of people around, and he was out seeing the people and, it just– you know, it just hit me hard, because at that– that– at that time, he was doing what he’d done all his life, reaching out to people, showing them love, giving them something they’d never had before, and he– he– and all I saw was– you know, I heard the noises and he was slammed hard on his face and– and uh, I don’t know, that was– it– it was traumatic for me, but– but then, at that time, I came to realize how– how far people would go to uh– to wipe out anything they didn’t understand, or, you know, even– even worse than that, that they could uh, uh, hinder their– their exploits. And uh–
Interviewer: How did it happen that you– Describe the (unintelligible word) where it happened? How?
Stephan Jones: Uh, I remember, we were in Redwood Valley at the Temple we had there, and there’d been some– there was a big weekend meeting and we had– they had had– they had the band outside and everything, and everybody was eating outside in the parking lot, it was kinda like– kinda like a big picnic– pic– (coughs) a big picnic (clears throat) and you know, Dad had come out, like he always did, to give everyone as– as the best of his ability, everyone attention, and– and love, and uh, I was over with a bunch of the guys, we’d just played some basketball, and we were talking, you know, and joking around and they were– they were teasing me about some– about this girl I liked or something, and uh, then– you know, the band had been playing loud and everything, and they had stopped, and then I just heard three really loud noises, and I looked in that direction, I thought it was a drum or something, and I– I saw Dad, you know, slammed down on his stomach, and all I remember, that I just started screaming, you know, a high-pitched loud scream, I didn’t know what else to do, I just– I mean, it was kinda like everything just happened, I mean, it just came crashing down on me. I didn’t know what had happened, I didn’t know– you know, I didn’t– I had no familiarity with any kind of guns or anything, I didn’t know what it– what it– what it was. And– because I remember he had reached out and touched some woman’s hand, and it was like, right when he did it, he just– he fell down. (stumbles over words) It wasn’t just falling down, though, it was like something had just– you know, a– a big weight had just come down on his back and slammed him down. But uh– I remember that– that, you know– I know, if anybody woulda thought, I mean, I know, from the way he was hi– hit, that the person had to come over– we had a great vineyard on the– uh, around our house, all around the property, and you just– because– from the uh, way he was shot and the way he was standing, you know that’s where it came from, and I know he knew, I know he did. Because he was– he was facing right– he was hit– he was hit in the stomach, but uh– he– and– and– I remember now, I thought my dog– I had a big dog, his name was Husky, I thought he was scared, because he went charging out into this vineyard, you know, I thought he was scared of the gun, or the– the f– the shots and– because Dad pointed and said, No, it’s over there, it’s over this way, because, you know, I know now that he knew that– that he woulda– people woulda torn him apart because– I remember this– this uh– this old guy, Richmond Stahl, who I’ve always liked, you know, I mean, he’s a– he’s a drunk and, you know, everybody calls him a good-for-nothing, and– I mean– an– like he was– you know, he– and just that, he was good for nothing, but I’ve always identified with him, because, I don’t know, I f– I knew a lot of religious people, a lot of people that so– you know, uh, thought they had their morals together, but they were so phony, I mean, there was just– I’d always remember the phoniness, I never– uh, I never got anything out of them but phoniness, I mean, it just kind of– uh, there was a– they had an aura about them, I mean, you just picked it up every time you got around them, you knew somebody that was– (pause) oh– but I just remember Richmond, he– he re– looked around and all he saw was a pick, and he was si– sick, he had had– he was having trouble with his heart, and he picked that pick up, and I just know that if he woulda got hold of that person that they would’ve– uh, they wouldna survived it. And Dad knew this, and so he steered them wrong, but– (Pause) but– (Pause) uh– To this day, I don’t know who did it, and I don’t know what it was done with, I guess it was a– a pistol, a handgun but– but I never saw the person, but it kind of made me realize that, from then on it would be– there’d be one hell of a fight, I mean, we would– it would be– it would be more than just uh, a disagreement, it wouldn’t be a conflict, it would be– they would be constantly trying to snuff out– snuff us out, because they just couldn’t– some people– I mean, there’re different reasons we– some people, they just knew that the wa– what– the way of life Dad was trying to bring about would– would uh– would go against their– their– (pause) their different way– you know, their– their exploitation and the way they wanted to make money, you know, everybody wanted to do their own thing, they didn’t care about who they hurt, and there were other people that knew their selfish way of life, and they knew it was wrong, and every time they saw us, they were reminded that it was wrong. For that reason they wanted to get rid of us, and– and then there were just people that didn’t understand us and– and, mo– for the most part when– when people don’t understand something, they– they strike out against it. But I think that was the time that– that I– I realized that– that it wasn’t going to be easy.
Uh– Like I said, from that point on, it was like– you know– a– a fight, just a fight, I mean, we just thought we were just holding out just for a few days longer, and I always felt that way, I never kinda expected to last much longer. I mean– (Pause) Either we would uh, be totally snuffed out or we would change the way we felt, I mean, that was the only way of doing it. And uh, I guess– I mean, I know that we finally realized that there was– people had been uh, given just– just enough to make them satisfied, because for the most part, uh, human beings and animals in general are uh– They’re self– I mean, they’re– they’re worth– If they’re doing okay, that’s fine, that’s all they need, they– you know, they– and uh, there was nobody will– willing to– to– to– to change anything. So it was kinda like, you know, a waste of time. And you know, Dad knew that he had a couple of thousand people that acted like they wanted something, and they wanted to change, or they wanted– they didn’t– they weren’t– they knew their way of life was wrong, and they knew that, you know, they just weren’t happy. So, I guess they just– that if least if he was gonna– you know, if he couldn’t– it– it’d be better to do something for these few people than nothing at all for anybody. And uh, we moved down here.
And I came down early, you know, and all that was down here was the people that came originally and some– and a few other guys that– that uh, had had so much trouble in the States that they were just on their way to uh– to uh, prison. And Dad knew it, and we all knew it, and– and it was the parents’ decision to– to uh, send them here, (Pause) because we all expec– we all expected to come anyway, eventually. And just from the time that they left till I got down there, which was like a– like a couple or few months, the change in them, it just– it– it was– it was– it was phenomenal, I mean they– they– they felt– I mean, they– I don’t know, I just like– like, let’s say uh, Ron [Ronnie James]. You know, I mean, he just– he didn’t care if anybody– was constantly something, I mean, I just thought– I mean, he was what I considered a punk in the States. I mean, I just had no time for guys like him, and now I come down here, you know, and– and uh, he works and like, he’s always– I don’t know, he brightens up my day, because (unintelligible word), you know, I might feel down or something, and he just– I mean, he’s funny, you know, and– and uh, he cares, you know, he points out little things that I’ve even stopped noticing because I uh, you– you know, I felt like it didn’t do any good, because you just sat there and you noticed it, and– and I even– there was times that I would mention it to people, and they’d just look at me like, you know, you’re weird, you know, who– who– who cares about– who cares? It’s not happening to you, it’s– you know– and uh, it feels good to me to know that– that there’s somebody else that– I mean, he’s pointing it out to me. And uh, that’s been good for me. And it’s also– I’ve– I’ve seen that change in everybody, because, at least now Dad– I mean, he’s– he’s– he’s just– he’s worked to the point that he’s– he’s, you know, ready to fall any minute, but at least he’s been able to work with these people and get something into their heads, you know, get feeling into their heads. And– and it just– you get the feeling that people care, at least you know, somebody cares, and that they– they’re trying to at least. (tape edit)
Stephan Jones: I don’t know. Here, I don’t know, I guess I see my role as a– as– I don’t know, I kinda of think of myself as an identification point for– for guys my age and– and people in general, because Dad no longer can– I mean, he– he does the– to the best of his ability, but he no longer can be that like he used to be, you know. Uh– That’s why I don’t carry– I mean, they want me to get into more of the administrative part, you know, and I’ve gotten into, you know, like the– that– the Steering Committee and stuff, but I still feel like I’ve gotta stay down, you know. Not that the– Not that physical labor is the only work there is, I know that’s not true, but– but just a– around guys, I mean, I feel like my– the way to give leadership, and the only way I got it from Dad, is just as a person– you know, is it a– I don’t know, on a personal basis. It wasn’t from just him preaching to me, it was, you know– I got it from him. And uh, that’s the best way to get it across to a lot of these guys, it’s not to just throw it at them, and to uh– uh, say you’re wrong for feeling that way, or– or uh, you know, preaching at ‘em what’s right, I mean, they don’t– they won’t– they’ll– they’ll rebel against that. I just feel like it– you had to take it gradually, you know, and point out little things, like– like with Ronnie, I know, you know, sometimes he’ll make jokes about things that just shouldn’t be, and I’ll say, you know, Put yourself– Put– Put yourself or somebody you care about in that place, and try to feel that way, you know, about what– you know, how bad it would be. And uh– Also I, you know– I guess I’ve seen myself as a play– a person with, you know, building this place, you know. But for the most part, I just– I just– (Pause) Also, I uh– I’m uh– I’m trying to (unintelligible word) to fight all the times and stuff, it’s just– mostly was just trying to prove something, also it was a– you know, I had a lot of hostility, but I’m trying to show by– and I think I’m making progress by, you know, not fighting. I don’t even think about fighting anymore, and trying to be more loving with people and uh, I’m trying to break down uh, competitiveness between, you know, young guys– I mean, that’s all I can talk about, I don’t know about– but– but guys, you know, competing over who’s the strongest, you know, who can do the most work and everything, I’m– I’m gradually trying to break that down, but– I don’t know, I kind of see myself as a– (Pause) the– the identification point, I mean, a person that, you know, carries it– I don’t know. (Pause) I don’t know.
Interviewer: (unintelligible beginning) your voice was loud enough.
Stephan Jones: That would do better, ‘cause it makes me feel like I’m reciting (unintelligible word). But like I was saying, what I– what I mean by an identification point would be, I don’t know, something that people could relate to because– I don’t know– Uh. (Pause) Because like I look at somebody– and I mean, people I know who work hard, you know, and– and just– I’m just seeing them break their backs, I mean, just– it’s– but people don’t see ‘em enough, and people have no way of knowing, you know, and they don’t want to know. I mean, for the most part, people just don’t– out of any– out of nowhere just come up with– with feeling, I mean, you have to put it right in front of their face, you know, they have to know. And uh– (Pause) Because I know, like, Dad doesn’t have the time – right? – to, to uh, do– give me– give peo– everybody what he gave me, the personal. Because I know it’d– it has to be personal, you have to touch, you have to be able to feel, you know, before you can relate to it, you know, the peo– you’re not gonna– somebody come up and tell you that– like even with, like, you were saying about Victor Jara, I mean, they can tell you what he went through, but you just don’t identify as much– Like you identify more with, like you said, Johnny Spain, because you knew him, you know what I mean? And uh– So I feel like, it’s my role to uh, in some way show them, you know, that– I mean, be like they were, you know, like, be like they were and like, what they saw important, and get to know them in that way, and gradually break it down, and– and, you know, lessen this image, you know, the big tough guy image, and take it slow, because you know, by– by feeding little things and, you know, a pat here, a pat there, s– or– or they point out you know, wow, you know, that was good, you say, uh, that ain’t nothing, you know, that– that’s– you know, that’s not important, and just do it slow, because if you just walk up to a guy and start hugging him and (unintelligible word) kissing him, I mean, he’s just gonna s– you know, he’s gonna say, now, this guy’s weird, you know, I mean, so– I mean, that’s the way I see it, is to take it– take it slow, because you don’t just totally chain– change people’s way of thinking, you know, I mean, it– I mean, you just don’t do it overnight, you just– it– it has to be taken slow. So. That’s the way I look at it, you know. (tape edit)
Well, for the most part, (unintelligible word) we went to school with were a lot of uh, liberal, you know, crapheads, I mean, you know–
Interviewer: At Drew.
Stephan Jones: Yeah.
Interviewer: What kind of school was Drew?
Stephan Jones: It was a uh– It was a private– It was progressive, I mean, but they were all– a whole bunch of uh– Every teacher thought that they– their– they– they had the answer to the world, you know, I mean, they’d (unintelligible word) us, they– they (unintelligible word), you know, good teachers, I mean, like, we had all college books, and they made you– they made it so you could understand it. But they– (unintelligible sentence)
Interviewer: That’s what ultimately turned you off of (unintelligible word)
Stephan Jones: Not– No. Also, you could just see him, and you contem– I mean, I felt– I felt guilty about going to this school because, you know, it was uppity, and, people would just be dropped off at school–
Interviewer: Rich people with kids?
Stephan Jones: Huh?
Interviewer: Rich people.
Stephan Jones: Yes. People got dropped off in limousines, chauffeur-driven limousines of– guys in schools would drive up in their uh, Camaros and their– one girl had a Mercedes. I don’t know if it was her parents’ car or not. And uh, you just couldn’t relate, you couldn’t relate to these people. You couldn’t relate at all. I mean, we used to knock ‘em on their ass a couple of times– you know, throwing stuff at ‘em, they just were not ready for. I mean, they agreed with me, most of them agreed with the way we believed, I mean, but they weren’t ready for it, but– (Sighs) I don’t know. And then– and then we’d come home and we’d be talking with kids in the Temple that weren’t going to this school, you know, and– and uh, (Pause) you just– even you felt– I mean, you just felt bad for them. You know, I– I– I– I really– I felt bad for them. And uh, I don’t know, I never– (Pause) For the most part, that was it, and we knew the– the fantastic amount of money they were paying for the school, and uh, I just didn’t feel it was worth it. Because I felt the only education I really was getting was from Dad, you know. And reading and writing would come– I mean, I know we were learning more than reading and writing, I’d already learned how to read and write, but that was– that (unintelligible word) education was (unintelligible word), because I didn’t think it would– would do any good.
Interviewer: So, just to give a little background, uh, how many students from the Temple went to Drew and for how long?
Stephan Jones: Let me think? I’d say–
Stephan Jones: I’d say, 15? I’m not– not– I can’t be exact, but fifteen to 20, at the most. At the most.
Interviewer: Well, how long did they go there?
Stephan Jones: Uh– Probably three months.
Interviewer: And then the students decided to withdraw from school?
Stephan Jones: Um-hmm [Yes]. Yeah.
Interviewer: Because of the expense that it was costing the organization, and also because uh, you felt bad about receiving such a high quality education while others– other teenagers in the Temple were going to public schools?
Stephan Jones: Right. Because like, one thing that would make me realize that with some of these– there were kids there that would go– had just gotten kicked out of other schools because they were so incorrigible, right? And they’d– their parents would have– would– would have– you know, their parents were well-off enough to send them to this place, but they were still– like they were black– black kids, so they still rebelled, so they– they came to this school, because uh, none– none of the public schools would have ‘em, and uh, to be in class and have them called on, and just sit there, and– you know, you had just been called on before, and you knew the answer, you know, and you’d run off a big thing, because– because, you know, a big intellectual spiel or whatever, and this kid would just– he’d drag you right back down to what it was really like, you know, that– that there really was no education for– for uh– for– for the common folk. And, I don’t know, it just kinda got too many– It’s kind of a– a– a conflict that I just couldn’t, you know– it just seemed a contradiction. All that we believed in, that were going to this school. You know what I mean?
Stephan Jones: And not all of us, you know, thought about it the way I did. I mean, some people just plain old wanted to go to public school and uh–
Interviewer: Just to hang out.
Stephan Jones: Hmm?
Interviewer: Some people wanted to go to public school just to hang out.
Stephan Jones: Yeah. And uh– I don’t know, I think what brought it about is like, I was– I played basketball, I was playing basketball in this gym, and this guy came and asked me what school I went to, and uh, he was from Washington High, and he wanted me to come play with them, play for them and everything, and– and uh– and then we got to talking about it and how we didn’t like the place anyway, and I said, you know, it cost too much money anyway, and the guy could get– And it was, I don’t know, he cou– he knew he could get me in the school, so I figured, you know– That’s how it came about, I don’t remember exactly how, but then we got to talking about it and how we all really hated it, because I was already cuttin’– I was already cuttin’ from Drew, because it just is– you know– It just seemed stupid.
Okay uh– Uh– In September, we kinda– Everything was starting to point, you know, uh, things that were happening in– in government and things that were being said about us, and– and uh– just the whole, uh, trend in general was– was pointing towards a– a rightwing takeover, or you know, just– We didn’t see it, we– we– we– it had becoming– it looked like to us that– that uh, (Pause) our– our position here wasn’t– wasn’t secure any longer, and you know, like, we were expecting anytime for a– for– to see armed– you know, you know, to see s– to see an army coming up at us, you know, and uh, at that time, we were having a lot of harassment from I don’t know who, we saw people come, and they’d come in, you know– (Pause) with weapons and stuff and take shots at us, and just totally harassed us, and– and– and had us on edge 24 hours a day.
Interviewer: Previous to, you know, the actual day, what we call on the line here, there had been a direct and unequivocal assassination attempt on– on Jim Jones, because he was in his house, and there were shots fired from a high-powered rifle that came within inches of his head – right? – so it was– it was clear to us there was a move to destroy us, and then there was a sudden, you know, quick uh– something happened in the government that we thought that, on that day, there would be troops out to take over Jonestown. (quiet voice, second person?)
Stephan Jones: And like uh– it was kinda like, you know, the fir– when the first time I– I saw Dad shot, it kinda– ‘cause I– I had– I had uh, subconsciously, I guess, kind of come to think of this as a, you know, uh, a world of its own, I mean, I thought that we could go on, you know, without any harassments from the outside, without any trouble, we could build– you know, I– just the– the whole idealistic trip and– and uh, it’s kinda once again (unintelligible word) made me realize that uh, it’s a struggle, wherever you’re at, because uh, there’s too many people that’re living off– you know, that are– that are living good off– off other people’s uh, oppression, and they do not want to see communism, and they know Dad, and they know, you know, his– his leadership, and they know his potential, and they know what he can do with people, and uh– I think they kind of see this as a kind of breeding ground for communism, right? And so, they want to snuff it out. (Pause)
Okay, all I– all I remember is, like, you know, the first thing that– the first thing that happened, I mean, they didn’t even expect it, is, you know, when Dad was shot at that night, and uh–
Interviewer: That was in like– That was like at the end of August or the very beginning of September, right?
Stephan Jones: Right.
Stephan Jones: It was– It was, you know, it was 77. And like, we had just been down there talking to Dad. And uh– and me and Johnny [likely Moss Brown, could be Cobb] were walking up here and– and we heard it, and we came running back there and– and uh, right then, you know, my heart sunk, you know, I mean, because I– you know I realized that– that it was– you know, it’s just gonna start up again, I just knew it. But uh–
Interviewer: So it brought back the whole extremely painful thing for you, of thinking that your Dad is a (unintelligible word under movement). Right?
Stephan Jones: Right.
Interviewer: –just– just like, because you didn’t know at the time whether he had or hadn’t been, you know, walking away from the house. The thing that you– you saw him hit the cement, maybe about two years earlier.
Stephan Jones: Right. It just– you know– It was almost just– I mean, it was just–
End of side 1
Interviewer: Okay, back to uh, (unintelligible word)
Stephan Jones: Uh– Yeah. When– when uh, they took the– the– they shot (unintelligible word), I knew that uh– You know, I mean, it was the same feeling, I mean, that– you know, that– that there’s no way that we’re gonna– that we’re gonna survive, uh, independently from the rest of the world, and that people are gonna sit back and watch us, you know, uh, build communism and– and– and uh– and uh– there– there– there’s just no way, I mean, it’s the same thing like, when– when Dad was sh– shot the first time, I thought that we could– you know, I knew people didn’t agree with us and people were against us, but I thought they’d just be content with the way they felt and– and we could, you know, stay, you know, to ourselves, but I know that there’s no– no way, I mean, it was just, uh, the whole idea was to (unintelligible word) with it, that uh– that we– we were going to build separately from the rest of the world. And it kinda just hit me again, you know, the same feeling, I mean, I reacted to it– I didn’t react to it the same way, you know, I– ‘cause I– I had, you know– I– I’d learned to cope with it, you know, but uh– but the same time, uh– I don’t know. Like uh– to say like with– with Tim Swinney, you know, was supposed to be a– a big– you know, big burly tough guy, you know, that’s supposed to, you know, supposed to be, you know, unapproachable and everything, he’s so sweet. When we were in the last few– when we were in the last few minutes, what we were sure were the last few minutes that, uh, me and him were like a team, and we uh, just kind of broke down and just said, you know, it– I couldna gone down fightin’ with a better guy, you know, I mean, and we– we uh, hugged and he just s– said, you know, well, this is it, kind of, and uh, that felt good to me. And like we’ve been closer ever since, you know, we’ve been able to relate a lot– lot better ever since, because we both felt distant, because we both had this– this– this tough image. Not necessarily– I don’t think that we had that image of ourselves, but everybody else has the image, and we didn’t know how to relate to each other, because we didn’t know how much– like, I didn’t know if he believed it about himself, and I didn’t– you know, and I’m sure he didn’t know whether I believe– believed it about myself. And we didn’t know how to uh, break the ice, and it kinda was a– a blessing, I guess.
But the thing that hit me really hard was that, uh, uh, I was separate from Dad. I mean, I knew Dad. I knew– I knew Dad well enough that, if anything went down, which, you know, we saw as– as inevitable, and we– we just– it was just a matter of time, I knew Dad would be the first to go, I mean, I knew he’d be right there. And all my brothers were with Dad. They went around with him everywhere, and I was separated from him, because I knew a little bit about uh, warfare and stuff, a little– I mean, you know, if I had done a little study and a little firsthand experience, and I– so I was– it was required of me to– to be, you know, on this– on security, to be guarding the place, so I was– I was separated from him, and so, you know– I kinda resented it, because all my life I’ve felt that I had made more in a– more of an effort than my other brothers to– to– to relate to Dad and– and try to please him, try to be close to him, and I wasn’t hung up on a lot of the– the stuff that the other guys are. Or were. And– and I always would fan– fancy myself in my fantasies, you know, about coming in at the last minute, ‘cause I knew someday, they were gonna finally get Dad and he was gonna be on trial or something, or they were going to have him back to the wall, and I’d come in at the last minute and just, you know– come in with him and we’d– we’d fight together to the finish, all right, and– you know, and– I guess, just like the rest– you know, uh, it’s just like my whole life has been– nothing has worked out the way I– I’d like it to, and (unintelligible word)– and I was stuck off away from Dad and I knew we were going to die away from each other and– and uh– and I’d probably never see him again. Yeah. And uh– I remember how good I felt when uh, he– basically, when the people saw the– these guys on the edge of the bush, and– and he called me over there, and (unintelligible word) I just– I was just– you know, I was just praying that it would happen then, because I knew it was gonna happen, and I’d hoped they’d come in, ‘cause I was with Dad. But I remember uh, looking at the– all the people and– and how they uh– you know, they’d never experienced this before. You know, they’d never been on the edge of death or, you know, on the– They– They’d never uh, identified with– with dying, or fighting what they believed– you know, for what they believed. Because all my– you know, I’d always pulled away from all the– all the people because I– I– you know, I felt that they had rode in on– on– on Dad’s uh, love and his compassion, and never had to uh– like I– you know, we’d had to suffer. You know, we’d had to suffer with the– Dad, so it was like, we’d paid for the love we got, you know, and– and I always felt like they just got it, you know, and– and I resented it, and it was kinda like the thing that– that that whole six days brought me closer and closer to– to– to the people because I felt like they were now experiencing, you know, what I’d experienced in all– you know, in my 19 years, and I felt now that maybe they’d be more appreciative of what they had and– and I felt they deserved it more now, you know. So I think that– I think that’s, you know– I think the– the– the– the six day– the– the crisis was a– a– a blessing, it was a hell of a blessing, because it brought me back to reality, it brought me closer to people, and uh, because that was my main flaw, I mean, if I ever wanted to get anything done for people, I needed to be able to relate to them better, and I had a hell of a time relating to people because I resented them so much. And I think it was uh, one of the best things that ever happened to me. (Pause) (tape edit)
So like, uh– All I know is when I came down here, I mean, at first I didn’t want to stay because Dad was going back, you know, and I’d always felt– seeing myself as Dad’s personal overseer, you know, I mean, I was the one– (Pause) (sighs) I– I re– I honestly felt like all the security I would look at– you know, the guys who were watching over Dad and stuff, and– Big– It was kind of a big tough guy thing, I don’t– but I never felt like they took interest in it, you know, and I– I always did, what– worry about him and watching and stuff, and I was worried about him going back there and having nobody, which is unfair, because I know there were people that did take concern in– in– in his personal welfare. But after I was here, you know, everything started– I started to have a purpose, you know, because I would– (pause) I just started rebelling against everything, you know, I’d get up in the morning, and right off the bat, I mean, if I didn’t have my– you know, it was just– but I got down here and I started having hours again, you know, I’d wake up at a certain time, I knew what I had to do. You know, in– in the– in the States, I never knew what I was going to do, I didn’t know, uh– I had no structure. And I got here, and I could go out, and work, and uh– long as I was doing something– because in the States, I mean, you knew what was right, but you knew you weren’t doing it. Uh– You knew you weren’t doing a damn thing, I mean, like in– you know– (Pause) If anything, you were turning people off, (unintelligible word), I mean, I was turning people off, by the way I– I approached everything, ‘cause I was such a hostile– I was such a hostile person, such a hostile human being. And uh, I don’t know, I came– I came to myself there, I think I– I got out of the– (Pause) the big machismo thing, because like, that– that woulda been, I don’t know, I mean, it made it hard for me to– I mean, I could always relate to guys, I guess, I mean, that– that– that was only half of the– you know, half the people, I mean– and it made it easier on me. I came out of the machismo thing, and I– because I– I became interested in– in my work and getting something done, and it wasn’t important anymore, you know, because it– this is– it’s the atmosphere in the States, you know, you gotta be tough. In reality, you gotta be– you gotta have a tough image, I guess, to survive. I mean, to uh, get people to leave you alone. I think I– I had acquired that also, to get people within the Temple itself to– to leave me alone, you know, because I figured if I was mean, you know, people wouldn’t come up and talk to me, because I saw what they were doing to Dad, you know. They took advantage. But down here, I could think about it, you know, and I got out of it and everything, and now it’s helped me because I can relate to uh– to females too, I mean, I– because I know– I know what a– what a bitch it is to be a female, and you know, every guy walks by you and look at– looks at you and just, you know, just like, you know, this– this sexual (unintelligible word). You know, I mean, they– they just– I mean, I– they look at you like, you know, that’s all that’s on their mind and– and now I feel like that uh, I don’t come across that way, and I don’t think anybo– I don’t think there’s– there’s any– any woman (unintelligible) there’s anybody that thinks I’m (unintelligible word). Because I– That’s not important to me. I mean, what’s important is relating to them, I mean, and uh, letting them know that there’s somebody here that gives– cares about what they think, and gives a damn about their mind and– and I uh– I guess they don’t– it’ll– it’ll make it easier for them to– like, if (unintelligible word) they feel like they gotta uh, prove that they’re not uh– they’re not objects, and when they do it, they come on too strong, and when they come on too strong, they just uh– they turn people off, you know, and they make a guy– they make guys hostile and make guys worse, and uh– (Pause) I don’t know. Like let’s take Ronnie, right? Uh, the whole big thing with him has been trying to get him to appreciate the companion he has now [Shirley Ann Edwards], you know, and to respect her, because she’s a– she’s a– uh, a strong– I mean, she’s– ‘cause she comes on pretty strong, she lets you know what she thinks and everything, and he used to come saying, you know– She– she had the nerve, you know, to say this or that, and I said she (unintelligible word)– and then I– I changed the word nerve, I said, she had the right, she– she had the right to say that. And uh, I got him to respect it, and to appreciate it, you know, because one thing I always hated is– is to know uh– have people believe– I mean, they– they honestly believe something, and instead of checking it out with you, they go on believing it, and it gets worse and worse and worse, and half the time– more than half the time when they come check it out with you, it’s not the way they think it is, and it’s not the way it looks. And uh, I just think that uh, communication between people would be– I mean, uh– the world would be better, you know, I mean, it sounds dumb, but the world would be better if people would uh, say how they felt right then, and get it out at– you know, get it out of the way, because then you could– you could feel at ease, you could feel like uh– you know– you know if the person thought something about you, they’d say it. But now, you’re– you’re always paranoid. Does this person really like me, or does this person feel this? I mean– You know what I’m saying. I– I mean– If you knew the person would come to you when they were mad, you never worry about them being mad, because you’d know it. I mean, there’s no–
Interviewer: It’s true.
Stephan Jones: And uh– So– That helped me (unintelligible under moving mike)
Stephan Jones: I mean– this– this– the– the best way of saying it, and (unintelligible), in the States, I felt impotent, I mean, I just felt– I felt– I mean, I felt all the time– I mean, you– you– you just can’t– you can look anywhere in the States – right? – I mean, you can just open your eyes, I mean, anywhere, and you see something you want to change – right? – there’s not a place, there’s– there’s nothing– there’s no place that there’s not something that can be changed. And for the most part, everything needs to be changed. And– and you know there’s nothing, there’s not a goddamn thing you can do, because people don’t relate to you, and– and uh– (Pause) And if you want to take it slow, like I’m talking about, you can’t get to know a guy uh, well enough, you know, because right off the bat, the tough– it’s the competitive tough guy conflict, and there’s no real way of expressing yourself, other than to say you’re a jerk, or even if they know you’re right, they’ll say you’re a jerk, because they know that’s what you’re suppo– they’re supposed to say, and you know– So there’s nothing you can do, I mean, you just sit there, you know, and you go by and you see– (Pause) You see somebody getting beat on, and you see somebody getting– you see your friends, you know, I mean, I’ve been walking with guys I– I hung out with, and they’ve been, you know, arrested, you know. And uh– You– You get searched along with them and everything, and you– I mean, just the whole mess, it’s just– you feel im– just– just– just put it out, you just feel impotent, and I come down here, and I feel just the opposite, you know, I mean, I feel potent as hell. I mean, I feel like I can go out, I mean, I’m building this place, I mean– Like when I came here, I mean, it was clear that there was– there was no cottages, you know, I mean, that was– that was bush over there. There were no dorms. All that was here was the original community building, the office, and the warehouse and the shop.
Interviewer: Oh, Christ.
Stephan Jones: And uh, boy– God– To feel so uh, worthless and then to feel so uh, alive and, you know, I mean, like, I felt like I was doing something, I mean, I– I knew I was building something, and that the big thing was to get as much as we could built before everybody came down, you know. I wanted to make a city out of this place, you know. But– (Pause) It was great, and it still is. But, yeah, it’s still is– it’s still good. And like, that gets back to– When people came down here, I didn’t think they’d appreciated it. They weren’t appreciative. And that– that six day with the crisis going on, it– I think it– It made them appreciate this place more, you know. I mean, at least you own something now, you know. At least you know you ain’t– I mean, you ain’t– know you ain’t just a (unintelligible word under interviewer sniff), you just ain’t borrowing something, I mean, you know this is yours. And I really got– I mean, I think I’ve got that. I mean, a few of the other guys who were down here before probably have that feeling more than– than– than most people do, because, you know, we– we put it up, we built it, right? And uh, well, that’s like, like– when I see somebody go out trashing, you know, well, I really– I mean, it– you know. It’s like they’re messing with mine. But I don’t see it that way (unintelligible word), I see it as everybody’s, because that’s– that was the way we looked at it when we were building it, we were building– we weren’t building it for us, we were building it for– for everybody. So (unintelligible word) I resent it when people– It’s– I mean, it gets back to like with Dad, you know. People ride him, they didn’t have to go through the shit, you know, that he had to to build the place, and they ride him, and they don’t– they don’t uh– they don’t respect like I respected Dad and I respected– I appreciated what he’s giving, and they don’t appreciate it. And after the– the crisis, now they appreciate it more. So it– like I say, you know, it gets back to that– that one thing, you know, that people– unless they’re made to uh, appreciate– if they’re just given something, if they’re just handed something, they don’t appreciate it. And that’s why it’s good for people to have to go through something to get it. (Pause) I– I (unintelligible word) I just tell you, this place has given me some meaning, ‘cause boy, I’d lost it all. I really had. I’d lost any kind of meaning, and I just felt like there was this (unintelligible phrase), you know. And I mean, I just– (Pause) I had no meaning. And now I got some meaning, you know, and every time I see them kids, and every time I see a little guy– and they come out here, you know, and they’re so alive, you know, I mean, there ain’t nobody telling them to shut their mouths when they got something to say. Even if it’s wrong. You tell them it’s wrong, but you don’t– you know, you don’t discipline them for it, you know, they’re young enough and they’re– they’re responsive and– responsive enough that you can tell them, you know, and explain to them. (unintelligible) some of them been– being raised totally different, and it– it feels so good to me, because I’ve wanted– that’s one thing I really had wanted for everybody, to’ve at least had what I had with Dad and Mom, too. They were both– They were an (unintelligible word) ideal combination. And uh– (Pause) It’s good to see us, you know, you know, (unintelligible) be raised the right way. But I think, I mean, it’s just gonna be– I– I think– I think I’m watching evolution, right here, you know, I mean, the process, I mean, I’m just– they’re going to be totally– it’s gonna be– they’re going to be su– superior human beings.
Interviewer: When you say evolution, evolution from what to what? I mean–
Stephan Jones: From (Pause) selfish human beings to uh, caring human beings, you know, motivated not by selfishness but by caring, you know what I’m saying, I mean, they feel, I mean, they feel, I mean– just– One of the things– Another thing that keeps me going, and that– and all I need to– to make me happy, because for the most part, everything that– I’ve never had a– The only foundation I’ve had is Dad, and it was with Dad and Mom’s love, especially Dad, that’s the only real foundation, ‘cause– ‘cause for the most part, we’ve had to move around, and– you know, I’ve never been able to be– become attached to anything, but I’ve always had one thing that has made me feel good about myself and about– about everything is that I feel, and I look around and I see a lot of people that do not feel, you know, that don’t feel. To be able to look at– you know, uh, something and say, you know, appreciate, I mean, I appreciate things that other people don’t even notice, you know, not– not all other people, but a lot of people.
Interviewer: Like what?
Stephan Jones: Uh– (Pause) I don’t know. I laugh at things that other people don’t even find funny, I uh– Oh, it’s hard– hard to describe. But I just– Well, okay, I’ll tell you one thing. Like, when I’m with Lew, he’s one of the– I think he’s the brother I would identify with the most– most. (Pause) If I do something that makes him– there’s an expression he gets on his face that nobody even no– nobody else even notices. I mean, they don’t even know what I’m talking about, but it’s an expression, I’ve known him long enough, when I see it, I mean, I just hurt so bad inside, you know. Like, I don’t know, one time me and him (unintelligible phrase) a little argument, it was– he got physical, I didn’t, but I mean– I saw that expression, and I feel so– that feel– I feel guilty for doing that to him, you know. But I mean, it makes me feel good to know that I feel, and I know that I won’t do nothing– do anything (Pause) stupid, because, you know, I won’t hurt anyb– I mean, I will hurt people, I’m not perfect, you know, I mean, I know that I can avoid hurting people, because I– I– I at least identify, and I try to– you know, I try to know what’s going through their head. That’s the only way I can describe. (Pause) I feel. I mean, I’m alive, and you notice, a lot of people I think just go along and– you know– and take what they can get when they get it. (Pause)
Recorded music for balance of tape
Tape originally posted May 2016