(Editor’s note: This tape was transcribed by Georgiana Mamlakah. The editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance.)
Steven Katsaris: – uh, Noah, two Sundays ago when you were having a meeting at the fairgrounds I came uh, we got there at 11 o‘clock, and by 1 o‘clock I had another commitment and had to leave, so I decided to come back last Sunday and uh, was here for an hour when I was asked to leave.
Jones: I never met you– I mean you must have got– uh, you were gone before I got here.
Katsaris: – Yes. That’s why I was so amazed, and that’s why I’m so happy to be here tonight.
Jones: But where– uh, was there someone else too that was also with you that was asked to go?
Katsaris: – Yes, uh, Dr. Eaton and uh, Maria [Katsaris] and I were here last Sunday together.
Jones: Will you try to communicate uh, this experience, and I– I knew it was a horrible hour but, as you mentioned, the mobility of this group. Not only do I travel, but the whole church travels, and we’re getting ready to go to Los Angeles. And we couldn’t find any time that we were certain of– certain of until September where we could really hit it, and I– I like to see things resolved quickly, if you can, but I– I said if you didn’t mind coming at this unheard of hour, which I’ve never even asked anyone to come at this late hour, believe me, it’s not my pattern to ask people to in– interrupt their evening at uh, this hour.
Katsaris: (unintelligible under Jones)
Jones: But I thought if you’d shown this much interest, it was our– it was our responsi– our responsibility to uh, certainly try to get together.
Katsaris: Thank you for the invitation.
Jones: But I’m sure you can just give us a wealth of experience of that first time you came in. Now you came in while we were gone, and that would be a typ– a different type of uh, approach than when I was here, and even– then you came in a religious healing service. If you were there uh, Sunday a week ago, it was primarily healing, I would imagine. Spiritual healings, as I recall. In the fairgrounds, you’re speaking? And uh, now I wish you had uh, been able to come earlier. We’ve had, oh, confrontations, we have four senior citizen homes, we have a convalescent sanatorium, we’re purchasing another, and we’re thinking of a youth kind of a cooperative here where young people will– single people will be able to live of the– uh, this particular uh, will be girls, I guess, young ladies or brothers. We’re not absolutely certain. And when you have this close-knit a family and a children’s home of 40 acres– we have dormitories stretched between here and San Francisco, 61 young people in college, nine of them, for instance, in medicine. I don’t know the breakdown [of] other fields. A lot of the things arise that people don’t have when they just gingerly meet each other on Sunday morning at 11 o’clock, from 11 until 12. But when you live under the same roof, as it were, uh, it’s too bad we haven’t met earlier. We have midweek meetings, but they’re this type, meetings where we would feel more comfortable with people who we know and uh– Now uh, we’re– we’re glad to get to know you, so that you– we– we’ll be able to get together more often. But usually, we uh, have been here every– every midweek. We have a midweek full meeting. Two– two services. Because we can’t get the congregation in this roof– under this roof, all of them at one time. But we’re now thinking of uh, making the main thrust of our effort in the Bay, coming up here for retreats. Uh– We’ve not really decided fully, we were uh, hassling over that tonight, but we have a tremendous drawing power in the metropolitan area, and we’ve got more to say really in a metropolitan area. We’re– we’re familiar with ghetto life, in that most of us came from that experience, by choice or by adoption. I was a director of the civil rights commission of a large city, and I lived in an interracial setting that was really a deprived neighborhood for about 13 years with my family, so in a sense, we don’t feel that we have as much to offer an agricultural community. We’ve sort of adopted this uh– we have made it a purpose to not try to recruit many people locally. We’ve run into a problem based on the– the liberalism of my theology. Now the lady in front of you is very fundamentalist, she’s Mrs. [Marceline] LeTourneau of the Assemblies of God background. Uh, you’ve probably heard of LeTourneau Implement Company uh, family of some uh, rec– rec– recognition in the field of– of implement industry and uh, she’s also well known – her family – for their orientation to a full gospel. I don’t know if you understand the charismatic uh– And she and I would– uh, would hold different– varying uh, points of view. I don’t know just exactly, we don’t bother about our differences, we have so much in common, we don’t worry too much about our differences. We both believe in helping people. But Mother’s our teacher, our main uh, Bible class teacher. She’s in her middle eighties, and lively, and knows how to take her fundamentalism and apply it liberally, but I don’t know how to do that too well. I’m a liberal that doesn’t uh, know too much how to apply my religion in the– with any fundamentalist tone, and in this community, as you’re probably familiar – maybe yourself even more orthodox than I – uh, this is quite a conservative community, theologically speaking. And we have found that when we make an effort here, what ha– what resulted a few years ago was we’d get a husband, the wife wouldn’t come, or we would get a wife, and the husband wouldn’t come. And uh, maybe– we even have cases of it. I won’t name names, but those of you who come– I see– Is one– Is Jack gone?
Voice in Crowd: He had to go to work.
Jones: He had to go to work. There one man here that suffered grossly, uh– He is committed to integration, and he’s committed to a ethical humanism, and his wife not only is not committed, but I think his stand, maybe communications problem, maybe we haven’t always interpreted, we tried very hard, we tried to carry our convictions as loose garments rather than trying to be offensive, but uh, she has become entrenched. And uh, more anti-black than ever, hate almost, and uh, we’ve tried to uh, resolve this the best we can. We can’t tell people– We almost told him to quit coming. We felt like it was such a hassle. [The] Family came in here one time, they came in with a– they were really disturbed, and used words that we don’t want to repeat, racist words, and uh, real threatening, over the loss of their father from his former theological perspective, and even his– his attitude on race. They seemed to feel that this was a subversive movement, because we were (laughs) enacting the Bill of Rights. But after we– we let them say what they had to say and roll with the punches – that eased off – but in nearly every situation where we have made a (stumbles over words) uh, we never really proselytize, we never evangelize, we don’t go from door to door, we make no uh, effort to win anyone here. But where people who have come across our paths have come in, it’s unfortunate that there has not been more uh, solidarity of interest, there’s not been the husband and the wife, but just one or the other. We have a few cases. Who– Who– How how many couples did come in from the Ukiah area – stand up – where you came together. They could get to know you. All white, of course. We didn’t have anything uh– But all– Nearly everyone else grew up in the Bay or in the original Indiana– There’s a sis– nurse there, a professional nurse. She didn’t stand, but I guess she’s getting ready to go to work. She is a long time worker here, member of a fundamentalist church. She didn’t have a– (stumbles over words) an actual difficulty with her own immediate family, because she’s alone now, but her mother and her sisters and her brother raised Hail Columbia over her coming– coming in. So we felt that, if we want to do anything here to interpret the major co– concepts that we ha– felt were important, particularly brotherhood. We feel we do have a really viable experience in brotherhood. We can say without any question that we’ve overridden uh, the racial problem. We felt that we were going to have to emphasize reaching outside people who didn’t have these entrenched prejudices, and also local churches wouldn’t feel so threatened. So we can gladly say we’ve never taken anyone’s members locally. In fact, most of you weren’t church people, were you? How uh, we– a great number of you were agnostics. How many of you were agnostics or atheist? (Pause) That’s a good section of the people that had no religious background, so in that sense we feel good that we didn’t disrupt anyone else’s religious orientation, and the rest of you were– How many came from fundamentalist backgrounds? (Pause) Wow! Fundamentalist– Fundamentalist. Some of you don’t know what I mean. Furniture of heaven, temperature of hell, that jive, you know? Okay.
Jones: (chuckles) That’s what I’m talking about. (pause) I would probably say, I’m sort of an agnostic in a sense. There’s a– a wonderful extra sensory power that works. It’s compatible with what I see in the Scripture as the nine gifts (I Corinthians 12:7-11). I’m distraught that I cannot effect cures for all that are sick. We have effected cures for phenomenal things. We’ve seen phenomenal things happen. Cancers healed, which is unheard of, terminal– terminal cancers. Terminal cancer sitting back there, the woman, she was in really bad condition, there’s a woman back there had terminal cancer. Miss DuPont that had terminal cancer. Bea Morton (stumbles over words) works with a government agency. Several. And then we’ve had uh, nearly any kind of phenomena you mention take place, but in the sense that you’re not a panacea. You– You don’t– it doesn’t cause you, it doesn’t inspire you quickly to make uh, lot of platitudes, lot of platitudes about the universe, so I just simply say, quite compatible with Christ teachings. I think they’ve never been tried, so I’d like to give them a whirl. If your enemy hungers, feed him (from Matthew 25: 35-45, which appeared on Peoples Temple letterhead). We really can’t say Christianity’s failed. Maybe the church has, but we’ve never really tried Christianity. But I myself– I make no real concern about immortality other than the immortality in my work. I believe in uh– in immortality, emotionally and experientially. Intellectually I have some trouble with it. I’ve had some things happen here that clearly proved the continuum of life that uh, from our– uh, our experience. We feel it has. I would say the majority of us probably hold to a doctrine of reincarnation. And this has come about from some of our delving into the parapsychological, although not all. Certainly Mother doesn’t come from that kind of background, but uh, some of the experiences that have come out of the uh– uh, through the manifestation of the parapsychological gifts or the extra-dimensional or whatever, the esoteric, we have been led to conclude that that is the way life continues. That then– That there’s more equality. And perhaps too there’s a subjective thing, the old concept of uh, one hell and one heaven, is not– It’s too heavy for me. I can’t see equality in that, but if a person does learn empathy through several experiences, then at least you can talk more about order in the universe. Although we make no criterion for worship here. We have atheist[s] who come, who are attracted because we take in every child that is brought to us. I don’t think of one agency that’s come to us, and we’ve had– We had a private psychiatrist this week that asked us to take a child in, we’re taking her from San Mateo, who’d had good experiences with some other cases he sent to us, or from the courts. No matter what the problem, someone here takes them. I had a case of a troubled child, a child that they had no favorable prognosis for tonight. One of the families immediately volunteered to– to– to– to give it a whirl. And so some are here just because they see a caring and sharing group. Some are here because they were attracted by our– our animal refuge shelter. We’ve got all kinds of little things down there that are being mended, wings that’re being mended and legs that’re being mended and every little animal that was shoved aside, we take in. You’ve heard of– Maybe you’ve heard locally, the Kerns Animal Adoption Program. Well, that’s primarily our church, it’s a member of our church, and we we do all the– all the animals that get placed (chuckles) unfortunately are placed here. (laughs) We haven’t had one placed outside of our church, and we feel like we’re about to have animals run out of our ears. But whatever, if it’s compensation for some feelings of guilt, we don’t try to– we don’t try to elaborate on that, uh, we– we just uh– we’re interested in making the world a better place. Whatever we may be compensating for within our personalities, we feel that if we’re kinder, maybe the world will be kinder. We feel there’s an enlightened self-interest in that sense. We know that selfishness exist in us, but we want to make it an enlightened self-interest, that by being kinder to all living creatures maybe that– that kindness will come back. I think I certainly have evolved, and I know some in this leadership and laity have evolved to the degree, that they’re not interested so much in kindness coming back to them as adults, but we certainly want the world to be a kinder place for our children to live in, and I dig that you can relate to that, and you’d probably be right there with us in that bag, that you’re not so particularly interested in what you get back, but you’d like a better world for those you love to be able to grow up in. I’ve yakked enough, I think. Anybody wish to ask him any questions about his faith. He’s– he’s– he’s– he’s Greek Orthodox, is it? It’s quite similar to the Catholic Church in some ways, but you have much more liberality than others in the sense marriage, and you’re certainly more progressive probably as a movement, aren’t you, than– than the Roman Catholic Church? Or is it– Is this generally so? I know lo– at least locally, you gentlemen are more liberal, and– but now the Roman Catholic priest that we have now seem to be more liberal than what we were familiar with. We had an Irish priest stood here that was uh, just here till about two or three years ago, and they were something else, they were out in the woods, but these gentlemen seem to be swinging individuals. Perhaps you can tell us a little bit about uh, your– your church and how it compares to the Catholic Church or something else that they could relate to.
Katsaris: That’s difficult in two words, Jim, but I– I will tell you that there’s uh, a bit more individual freedom in the Eastern or the Greek Orthodox Church. That’s probably based on the fact that the Eastern Church is uh, part of the uh, Eastern world and uh, we’ve never had a uh, Roman code of law, so to speak as the Western Church, so it’s– it’s more contemplative. There’s more individual freedom. What we’re doing here in Ukiah is largely the result of individual effort, so we do have that– that freedom to– to act individually. Uh, I would say that– that uh, uh, in that respect uh, the Eastern Church uh, compared to the Roman Catholic Church allows its– its own–
Jones: Like a priesthood. I could see why it would be.
(Man and Jones speak over each other, both unintelligible)
Katsaris: –function individually, and that I think is uh, largely a historical accident. Uh, the Eastern world was never really interested in forming codes of laws and regimenting things as– as the Western world.
Jones: That’s– that’s a good thought. I hadn’t uh, even considered why there would be this difference. Too busy in our own world. It’s really good for us to learn. How many of you are familiar with the Greek Orthodox Church? Have you ever heard that this– This is uh, much like the Catholic Church, they just didn’t accept the papacy at some point. There was disagreement as to who was to be the head of the church, wasn’t it? Isn’t (unintelligible word) what it amounted to? And so they’ve gone their own way, because of commitment to their– their beliefs. Uh– Politically uh, are you uh, now with the– with the regime in Greece, how do– how does the church react to this? We’re– we’re of course uh, terrified of anything that’s tyrannical from left and right, and we wondered how– how does this affect your church today?
Katsaris: Uh, my background is Greek Orthodox, but uh, the term Greek Orthodox encompasses more than just the people of Greece.
Katsaris: Only a small percentage of the Greek Orthodox Christians uh, come from a country called– (unintelligible word under Jones interruption)
Jones: Yes. Where is your prelate? He’s in Istanbul?
Katsaris: In Istanbul, yes– So that uh, uh, even though my parents were Greek immigrants, uh, the word Greek is more comparable to the Latin word in the Western church. However, what’s happening in Greece is uh, a very good example of– of what’s happened historically in Greek Orthodox countries. The church has tended to be localized in a national country, so we have uh, Greece, we have uh, Russia, the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia, and when governments come in that are strong enough to uh, control the church, then the church suffers as well as the political government. What happens in a country like Greece is that uh, you have a– a military dictatorship now uh, which is uh, all-encompassing in what it controls. It controls the press, it controls–
Jones: (unintelligible) (interrupts talks over him)
Katsaris: (unintelligible under Jones) –elections. This however has been uh, uh, something that’s historically taken place uh, in– in Orthodox countries.
Jones: But uh, Greek (stumbles over words) When you think of Greece, you think of the cradle of democracy. It’s uh– It’s kind of disheartening to see this happening, but I gather that probably you’re right in that sense. I am glad to hear uh, of your point of view. I’d– I’d sensed in– in the Bay when uh, some time ago Christophers of the Greek. Isn’t the mayor– former mayor a Chr– Christopher?
Katsaris: Uh, George Christopher, yes.
Jones: I heard him coming out in support of the Greek regime, and this gave me the heebie jeebies, and a few others uh, and I was wondering if there was a current flowing through the Greek community that was pro-Grecian politics. I– I uh, hope that didn’t exist. I didn’t know uh, and I made no– I’ve made no public pronouncement on this subject in the church whatsoever. I didn’t even tell them what I feared. This is the only time I’ve ever shared this thought. I noticed a whole lot of leading Greek members of the San Francisco or the Bay community supporting the Greek regime, and uh, Christopher went so far as to say we could do well if we were more like it, and I wondered who is that. And that– that made me apprehensive.
Katsaris: The average person whose of Greek uh, background here in the United States remembers Greek as a country largely like France for about twenty or twenty-five years after the second World War where one government was succeeded by another one in– in matters of months. And I know from my own personal experience in Greece, you– you could wake up there in the morning and not know if the uh, trolleys were going to run or if the garbage would be collected or if there’d be a newspaper strike, and so uh, now what apparently was political chaos was solved by the simple expediency of taking away freedom. The average Greek citizen uh, uh, lives in a province and uh, only knows that the government is all powerful. The average American citizen of Greek background, like the people you were talking about, know now only that when you go to Greece. you’re not hassled by a customs inspector who expect you to–
Jones: There’s much more order.
Katsaris: –to– to stay there for a half an hour why he inspects your papers, and if the tip is large enough, it won’t stretch into two hours so– so–
Jones: (unintelligible aside, sounds like “I can see.”)
Katsaris: Things are far more orderly, but you see uh, a dictatorship is the most effective form of government in the world. Uh– It has nothing to do with freedom, and when they go back there, the government knows how to take care of them well, the country runs more efficiently, and so you get comments like uh, uh, America would do uh, well if it could copy some of the things that are happening in Greece, though there– there’s no consideration of what happens to personal liberties. There’s no such thing as a free radio or a free press in Greece today.
Jones: I– I gathered. I was going to ask you. Is it as bad as it has been presented by such stories as Z for instance, which we– I uh– I think we did see it – uh, we do have that background. I’d forgotten we made that suggestion, and the congregation even went as a group to see Z. Did you see Z?
Katsaris: Yes, I saw the picture.
Jones: Was this uh, somewhat historical or–
Katsaris: Yes– Oh yes, uh, the happenings were a little garbled as– as uh, far as the chronological order of things, but uh, that was uh, based on a true happening in Greece.
Jones: I didn’t see too much difference between some attitudes in America. That’s what really disturbed me more than anything. It was not the uniqueness of the– uh, the fact that it happened in Greece. I could see the same kind of thing easily happening here. I mean the– the mentality, the same kind of mentality that you deal with. Maybe not as obvious in the military, but in San Diego, in some of my contacts, we have one retired military person here, some of the things they say, that military people say, was quite comparable to the kind of things that you saw coming right out of Z. Just to take this thing over uh, dissent. As you say order– order’s the most important thing, law and order without justice, and I’m terrified of order without justice. (Pause) Well, it’s– it’s uh, good that you gave us this feedback. We have had no– I don’t at least have any contact to speak with people who are in your faith or of your national background, even remotely so, and uh, when I saw the number of people who had uh, supported the Greek takeover, I uh– I wondered uh, would they lend themselves to that kind of thinking? Did– did they really mean that we want all the tyranny that goes with it? And I am really afraid. Do you think that this is the sentiment of a lot of Americans today that we (unintelligible word under Katsaris) order?
Katsaris: (interrupts Jones) Well, I think– I think that we as Americans have to share in a lot of that, because we historically, uh, to expedite our own a– uh, aims in the world, have supported governments like that, and tended to gloss over all the political inequities. We’ve done that in Spain, we’ve done that all over the world uh–
Jones: Yes, we certainly have.
Katsaris: In Central America and South America.
Jones: Do you go so far as to some that the CIA actually helped bring about the coup d’état in the Greek uh, government?
Katsaris: Well, I don’t know. I uh– I attended a lecture once uh, about four years ago uh, where someone brought out the fact that historically in Greece, this is the first time the government was ever taken over by the military counterpart of the CIA. Uh– the KIP in Greece is the intelligence wing out of which the colonels function uh–
Jones: That’s what I was making reference to. Newsweek, you know, sugg– The Washington Post made the suggestion–
Katsaris: –uh, to take over the government– (unintelligible sentence under Jones) But that’s a– that’s a big jump to say that, because it was their intelligence section that took over the government, that this was backed by the CIA. Uh, it’s interesting to see what we do as a government, as America–
Katsaris: We ordered uh, military uh, support, arms uh, uh, stopped to Greece right, oh, after that takeover. Two years later, however, uh, the facts came out that we– that we– that we had supported them with more military uh, uh, shipments in those two years than ever before.
Jones: That’s what– That’s what leaves me with such consternation. You’ll find all these denials, and then later on the front page, as it was in the Chronicle, it was absolutely denial by every phase of our government that we were involved in the murder of the Diem, the uh, in the Bu– in the– the– the Buddhist leaders in South Vietnam, then later frank admission by our own government that we had been involved. And then, when was it, the NBC White Paper that uh– or CBS White Paper that brought out the number of things the CIA has undertaken, the plan to assassin– the assassination of Sukarno, but they didn’t get a call, uh, didn’t– it didn’t go the way they wished it and uh, the murder of who, the Ira– Iranian Premier [Mohammad Mosaddegh, deposed in 1953] uh, some several years ago, and you wonder if this has been the pattern twenty years ago, if it’s not probably even worse today. Then what came out today, uh, something else I saw about uh, CIA– what was it, that someone was accusing them of? I want to– I– I want to hide from (laughs) some of this information I think. It was a bit in the news today. Did anyone read the news about the CIA some–
Voice in Crowd: (unintelligible too soft)
Jones: That’s Harris. What did– What did he say, Professor [Edith] Roller?
Roller: Uh, well– (Stumbles over word) I read two reports about this book. He’s a former OSS man, and he’s written a book which I think is probably, although not fictional, I think it’s uh, written from the point of view of making a good story, and– and uh, uh, I– I just uh– I’ve read this with a– I don’t say these things aren’t true, for instance, he suggested that uh– uh, somebody in the State Department suggested assassinating–
Jones: That’s the one that
Roller: Yeah uh, uh, Ho– Ho Chi Minh.
Jones: Ho Chi Minh.
Roller: –I guess it was, and that the CIA said it wasn’t a good idea. I think he’s just collected a lot of gossip that he is uh, telling because it makes a good story and– and– uh, I don’t uh– uh, it uh– I imagine that he didn’t work for them uh, recently enough nor in a high enough position to have very much information. He’s just picked up gossip on the fringes. That’s what I suspect–
Jones: That’s interesting.
Roller: – and I don’t think they even care very much uh, if he tells it, it’s uh, uh–
Jones: Why do you think they don’t care? Uh, no one’s (unintelligible word).
Roller: Uh, I don’t think he’s going to tell anything that’s uh, very fundamental.
Jones: I see.
Roller: I don’t– I don’t think you learn anything from the book. It’ll just be like another spy story. (Laughs)
Jones: That’s interesting. I– I uh, wonder uh–
Roller: I used to work in the State Department over in uh, India, and I had some contacts with–
Jones: What do you– Yes, I know you do have. Uh– What did you think of the uh, allegation by, I’ve forgotten the name of the man that left the CIA, over in CBS Network some months ago that said that– that the CIA was involved in eighty percent of the drug traffic. Uh, I don’t remember the names of the– of the involved but, the– in uh, South East Asia they were actually transporting drugs in US planes to support the uh, corrupt governments there, what you were mentioning, dictatorships that we feel that we have to deal with, I guess to stop uh, a greater threat as we feel communism to be.
Roller: I wouldn’t put that uh, past them at all. Uh, ‘course I left uh, my European service uh, about fifteen years ago, and uh– they uh– I didn’t ever hear of anything of that type uh, when I– when I was in Asia, but uh, they have a very large amount of uh, equipment and uh, large numbers of men, so I think it’s possible they would do anything to uh, keep a government in power that they wish to keep in power.
Jones: Yeah. (pause) Well, I hope [George] Orwell is– uh, what is it, what’s his name? – is wrong, 1984. I hope that that’s all wrong. Sometimes one lea– looks at patterns and sees that we feel that the way to combat another alien idea or tyrannical idea is by adopting another one of the same type to support our own particular economic system. But one can easily become too apprehensive these days, and we– That’s why we like to ask. We– we don’t hesitate to disagree, she disagreeing with my point of view there, and I’m sure that we have varying points of view, and some of you are more radical in your– your thinking. Don’t hesitate to say it. This is a free assembly uh– You have any other comment? – I know it’s late – do you have any other com– We don’t mind, we’re– we’re late birds, we stay all night for one reason or another, not that bad, we usually get home by one during summer, and then during the school year, we get strict, ‘cause children have to get their– get up in the morning. Does anyone uh, have any question you’d like to ask them? (pause) We’re not communicating– I– I– We’re not communicating fully, you know. If you want them in a comm– uh, I know what you’re going to say and I don’t want to be responsible the next time we have a catharsis, you’ll say no, until you start opening up a little more.
Female: Well, mine’s a pretty naive question, you know, going to comparing say the Catholic church, but it– you were talking about the independence that you have. Now is your school– you’re Trinity school right?
Female: Okay. Is that run in the same sense, like the Paulist Fathers run schools, or the different sisters run schools and colleges and things. Or are you independent to structure your school and to plan the academic religious or set your program yourself?
Katsaris: Uh, Trinity School is sponsored by our church. However, we– we’re completely independent. Uh, I’m the only member of our faith at the school. We have a staff of some 50 people who are not associated with our church. And uh, the children–
Jones: That’s certainly different than most religious groups.
Katsaris: Yeah. The children that come to us uh, are children of all denominations. There’s never any question made.
Jones: Well, how can we help– how can we help you in that area? We’re very much interested in helping with children. If there is anything– Of course you can’t think this late hour maybe, but if you find anything we can do uh, that sounds– That’s really wonderful that you have not parochialized uh, your school, and it’s certainly given you a great deal of liberty, uh, I would think to work with people of cross-section of backgrounds. That’s healthy. I don’t– I’m not fond of parochial institutions. We’ve felt the necessity at times of having a school of our own, because in the schoolroom, uh we have some fundamentalist teachers who’ll go so far as to call uh, d– of the devil, the dea– the theory of evolution, uh [Charles] Darwin– Darwin is cas– uh, castigated like you would Satan, and this gets under our skin at times, because we are mostly uh– most of us here are Darwinian in our theor– or inclined in theory of evolution, or far more than inclined. And uh, to get that guff all the time, it tempts one to be a part of a uh– you know, to form your own school. And they– they have a fairly good school, I guess a experimental school uh, a free school out way on (unintelligible location), but it doesn’t take care of enough people, and we’re so equalitarian that we couldn’t put a few of our children in a school without putting all. Uh, it– kind– we– We’re kind of interested in that kind of s– that type of school, but uh, we would be most hesitant to in– to reinforce our own prejudices of thinking, religious thinking, and for that, we feel that exposure in the public school system is good. But we run into a whole lot of racism. Your– your school is just for your own members, I suppose. And I mean– I mean they’re not members of your church but those who are enrolled in your school, who live in residence as the school, do you– do you send them to the public school or do you teach them there?
Katsaris: No, we have our own school on campus–
Jones: Is it just confined to the residents of your uh–
Katsaris: – of Trinity school, yes.
Jones: We should work. (laughs) We should in– and be able to have– have the facilities to expand it, because I imagine you have controlled the racial factor. As you’re quite familiar– I’m a schoolteacher myself on the secondary level, and we have several. How many school teachers here? Several of them are gone tonight, I don’t have the meeting with. There is one who’s head of a department, another one in this college and here’s a college teacher in English uh, department head uh– There’s uh, what are you, in lingual or linguist? Bilingual cor– teaching? She’s an elementary. Well, the bus has rolled in. (sighs) Uh– The uh, racism is more in evidence now than it was a decade ago, and even reinforced by people who ought to know better. We’ve run into some very bad things being said by teachers, racial connotations. Not that– we don’t mind a joke, we– we can take a joke, we’re not that uptight. We’ll even amongst ourselves talk about niggers too, as long as nobody outside– outside calls us niggers. We all say in here, we’re all niggers, or we wouldn’t be here, white, black, and brown, we’re all niggers.
Jones: But because we mean that, that anyone– anyone that is treated niggardly, anyone that is downrated and not given their full equality, we must– might as well face it, in that sense, we’re getting– we’re– we’re being treated as niggers, and as long as anyone is being as such, we joke about this amongst ourselves. But we certainly don’t like that thing thrown at us. But a little racial joke every now and then. But when people actually get up and try to support uh, differences of race based on some ridiculous Bible passage or some curse. We’ve had this happen right in the school system, where they bring up the curse of Ham uh– It makes us uptight, bu– but we’ve uh, found no solution just but to just mill along (Curse of Ham in Genesis 9:20-27), and there are pleasant exceptions, pleasant exceptions. But have you noticed this happening, that there is more racial feelings even the– on– on the part supposedly enlightened people? Uh, I don’t think uh, from our angle, and I hope I’m wrong, we– we don’t see an improvement overall in the racial relations, that the emergence of nationalistic feeling and a sense of black pride that’s perhaps caused further alienation. What do you feel about this thing? Do you think it is overall net or are we not being a– able to see the trees for the forest or something of that sort?
Katsaris: Well, I think we’re far more aware of it today, and uh, one of the by-products of this awareness is that in many of us here in America, our racism has gone undercover, quite unconsciously too.
Jones: Yes, that’s true.
Katsaris: It’s uh– It’s appropriate today not to be racist, but if you look closely, there’s a lot of it right under the surface. We received a questionnaire from the uh, uh, Civil uh, Rights Commission uh, down in the Bay Area, asking us, as a uh, state-licensed agency, to supply them with information. How many children were black? How many ca– uh, were of other minority groups with Spanish surnames, uh, uh, Filipinos, other Asians and Orientals. And uh, for the first time we had to sit down and uh, start counting, how many children do we have that’re black? How many do come from Oriental backgrounds?
Katsaris: They’re– they’re– they’re all there with us, and it caused us uh, to pause and to– to– to say to ourselves, how is it that we came to the point in our school of being able to see these children as children and not white–
Jones: And that’s beautiful.
Katsaris: – or black or– or Oriental.
Jones: So should it be.
Katsaris: Okay, so– so I– I think that that is a byproduct of getting to know people individually. If we would just see these children for an hour a day and see them as problem children that come to us for therapy, I think we would tend to see them as a black child or a white child, but when you live with them 24 hours a day uh, year end and year out, you begin to see them as individuals, and it doesn’t take long for color and background to be something that’s uh, completely insignificant.
Jones: Hm-mm. It’s true. Well, we– you give us heart. We’re glad you’re in the community, to say the least. When I said communicating, I don’t mean that we’re any uh, division between us, but our people just not talking as much as they usually talk. Believe me, they can talk. Uh, but I think that they probably feel that they would uh, overtax you at this hour uh, because we were very really thrilled about your coming, and we hope that we’ll be able to do this more often.
Jones: While on this, uh, the last instance of finances. Maybe you might take them, show the senior citizens home, and I’ll be there in about five minutes. We’ve got to make this last financial report, no use for them to go through that, and we– I’ll join you across the way in just a minute. Maybe if you could– you could– another ten minutes. I’d like to talk a little bit more to you if I could. Uh, everybody uh– (Pause) I– I don’t know, if you would prefer to meet the people, we can forfeit this little business, but we– there’ll still be time, they’ll be milling around. They’re gonna– we’ve got the– one of our senior citizens has a project, give them on me, on– I’ll pay– pick the tab. She makes awfully good steak, and one of them’s out there is 88 and she’s got fried chicken, and I’ve got 88 and 90 and these– these gals never quit. (laughs)
Female: Thank you (unintelligible).
Jones: We– I think uh, we uh– and then you’ll have time to talk with the folks too as they socialize, and don’t forget, folks, to support that uh, project out there for our children’s work, and it’s a good way you can feel that you’re supporting and get something out of it too, ‘cause they sure can cook, can’t they. It’s good food.
Jones: I uh– (Pause) Now I want– I wonder if you would uh, (aside, too soft) –get him over to the house after they eat, you see that– see that I don’t– I’m not overheard. (Back to mike) I want to get some more money here.
Congregation: Laughter and scattered applause.
Jones: I want to get some more money and we got to do it, (Pause) so now let’s– let’s– let’s get it quick. Get any pledges– the offering report was ridiculous, so uh, if you can, uh, I think that uh– Laura– Laura, Chaikin – you might talk a little bit to them on healing, even though you’re humanistic, go out and talk to them a little bit about–
Jones: But I think he– think of the healing might be good to s– to give them some dramatic thing, ‘cause I– I humble– I was humble about it. Thank you. Uh, (Pause) did you see anything about how you– did you see anything in my approach that you– how you would approach a person? I’m quite confident that I can move heaven and earth, but you don’t tell people that. You prove it to them, and you take ‘em little by little, and then prove it to them. Then you can do a lot more than if you make great big promises. If you don’t promise and produce, that’s better than to promise and not produce. But uh, I can see that they’ve got– I know where they put us, they uh– they put us in a– in a bag of uh, cultism, and that kind of got tore up here. Don’t be so pru– don’t be taken in. Some of you didn’t stay awake for this. I know you’re very tired, but you should’ve look– listened to this. You don’t want to be uh, misled. Uh, it was the comfortable middle road of liberalism. [In] Other words, I can understand why people are supportive of the Greek regime. There wasn’t that much criticism of dictatorial fascism. It’s the comfortable middle road, and frankly, there’s a real schizophrenia. People accuse us of being schizophrenic, but they’re really– There’s a real schizophrenia out in the world. Now he probably said more about that government here against it than has ever been said by his lips before. Uh, because in– in the– in the church, he couldn’t survive. I was trying to be as truthful with him as I could. The Greek Orthodox Church is so very much involved with the support of the terrible fascist and racist regime, that terribly murderous regime. I mean they’ve murdered every one of their enemies there, and that– and tortured them, and pulled out their fingernails, and poked out eyes, and cut female breasts off, and uh, the church– the Greek church has not said one word against it. The Greek church– American Greek church has not said a word against all that murderous business. So I want you to be exceedingly wise. Someone can be sweet and smile and gentle and kind, and he said he thought so much of us. Why, he wasn’t telling us the truth, and I said the truth when I said we’re not communicating, and then I realized I said too much truth. (tape distorts) We– We’re playing games. So I said, we’re playing– I might as well have said we’re playing games, but I knew that wouldn’t help any. He said I’ve heard so much good about us. He lie, he lie, he lie.
Jones: And do it so sweet, folk can just lie to you so sweet. Now (unintelligible word)– Would you believe it, I used to wouldn’t tell a lie for no one. Even today, one of the sisters answered the telephone, said I wasn’t there, she trying to help me. I don’t like that. I’d rather avoid a lie wherever I can, except when somebody is trying to do you harm. Then I’ve learned to not tell people things they want to hear to use– use against you. I said we didn’t like dictatorships of the right or the left. We were afraid of tyranny from the right or the left. I tried to goad him a little bit into understanding, Professor Roller gave some kindly disagreements, but yet supportive where I needed support. It was good, she showed– I was hoping someone, after she disagreed, would come in and agree with me.
Roller: I was afraid I (unintelligible)
Jones: No– no– no– no, I think it was good. I think it was good uh, that not everybody yes me. I think it was very good. But someone else shoulda come in there and backed me up, because I didn’t want you to be selling what she knows. You see, I’ve got to talk to some of our own people here– Shhh! Now, wake up! She was in the CIA and she knows they do murder and they do kill. And I was– My thought was, don’t you say anything, ‘cause I don’t want them to– ‘cause if they could report her and cause difficulty, ‘cause she’s been in it. But believe me – and I know we were staging, we were staging things – ‘cause we don’t put, as someone said earlier, I think Harold was mentioning, us throwing pearls before swine. Well, we’re gonna– We sure not going to throw pearls out there. We’ve thrown them too many times, and they’ve throwed brickbats back at us. Instead of getting even our own pearls back, we got something else, and so uh, it would– I wish you woulda stayed awake to watch me. Some of you who are younger particularly, you should’na gone to sleep on me. And I haven’t been to sleep uh, either for a couple or three days, and I– I wish you had stayed awake, because you could’ve learned uh, something in the art of wooing and winning people, or leaving them confused. Never appear too wise, throw ‘em off, you know. Yet and I– you’ve got to tell them an element of truth, ‘cause they go out and find out you believe in some of these things. They do find out that I believe I’m God, or you believe I’m God, I perfectly made a way for it, ‘cause I said I don’t believe there’s anything up there. The only thing that there is, is here in me, but uh, I didn’t say that. I just said they– Said I don’t uh– I don’t project too much on that. We do good for good’s sake and so forth. And I could feel that he was getting home to him there, I’d opened up some thoughts that he’d not had when I said we just, out of enlightened self-interest not looking too good. You see, the psychologist always trying to say that there’s a motive for everything, and people are always defending, saying there isn’t any bad motive, and so we let it know right off we might be doing it for all the selfish reasons in the world, but it was an enlightened self-interest, so we took– or we crumbled his case, if he’s gonna call us nuts. He– He certainly have trouble calling us nuts after that. And uh, and you can never really know, my loves, what they will say just by what went here tonight, but you, Liz [Forman], know that a lot rides on you doing awfully good job there. Do an awfully good job. We might win that little girl [Maria Katsaris]. The little girl is sincere, but you’ll have to be careful what you say, you can’t say– mention healings. He always plays himself down, but you can mention one or two here– just phenomenal things. He says he always plays himself down, ‘cause this might throw off a little too much charisma. I might’ve thrown away too much charisma here for her to be won, because all people are won through that image. Everyone likes their God or their leader to be put up high, and I put myself down pretty low, so she might’ve lost some of that necessary initiation charisma. [It would] Be good maybe if you’d talk with her in the presence of some of our other young people sometime. Maybe we can invite her for– to go out for uh, you know, whatever, some little tea. I– I– I’m accustomed to tea, referencing my travels, having tea and biscuits. Another thing I did. I– I wear these glasses for (unintelligible word) image, and I thought aha, you think I’m gonna– I’m afraid that I’m hiding behind these glasses, I took my glasses and (unintelligible word).
Congregation: Scattered laughter.
Jones: ‘Cause that would be– One of the psychologist would be making some kind of uh, (mimics psychologist voice) he wear those glasses for some reason, he can’t look at people, so I made him quite sure that I can look at him straight in the eyes. So you want to– you want to always remember those things. I have a reason to wear these glasses, but it’s sure not because I’m afraid of looking at any of you. You ought to know that. You can see that. You can– You can weigh your Father and watch him. Ain’t nobody I’m afraid to look at. Never be afraid of that. But I have a good reason to wear these glasses because my eyes have a certain potency, and so sometimes it’s good for me to take them off too. I’ll let you live with that parable [could mean “paradox”]. Think about it. Now, I know it’s quiet, but we’ve got to come up with some money, folk. Uh, anybody got any big 100 dollar pledges to make on that building, we’ve got to have it in the next few days, we’ve got to put some money down where our mouth is. Anybody got any money to help us right now, quickly? Any assistance. I hate to do what I did Sunday, it– it– it’s the only workable thing. (pause)
Woman in Crowd: (Unintelligible)
Jones: Oh, good.
Woman in Crowd: I’ll try to get uh– I’d like to give fifty percent to the church–
Woman in Crowd: And forty percent to the college.
Jones: That’s fine. Fine.
Woman in Crowd: (Too soft) Uh, what the uh, Temple will (unintelligible word) a hundred dollars and eights cents, and the college fund will get sixty-seven dollars and twenty cents–
Jones: Wow, that’s lovely. Thank you.
Woman in Crowd: (Unintelligible)
Jones: Did you mark it? You just mark it uh– Well, I don’t know you’re putting it directly in the college fund. Dale P– [Parks] is it, uh– no– no– not D– uh, Wayne [Pietila], have you got your account set up?
Voice in Crowd: (unintelligible)
Jones: Where’s Wayne? Is Wayne here? You got your account set up now? Okay, you make it– She’ll make it out to you–
Woman in Crowd: (unintelligible)
Jones: Fine, that’s– that’s good.
Woman in Crowd: (unintelligible)
Jones: Oh– That’s– that– that’s good. Now you– We’ve got the money out of you– Shhh! We’ve got the money out of you, so now you get out there in sh– in fellowship. We’ve got the– is that all the money you’re going to give me? That’s all the money I’m getting out of you? You? Yeah, go on out and see those folk. (Pause) Come on, loves, uh, I want to get loose from here, and we’re 500 short, so what we’re gonna do with it? We’re now 500 short. She just made a hundred dollars that was– we were 600 short. What we gone do with it? Hmm? We’re going to work our way down, and when you get your– your way down, we’ll let you out. Come on (Tape edit) (unintelligible intro) If you heard your name, you must have it, you must have one of these tonight. Uh, they– they– I called the names, it’s up to the people to– to put your hand up now, if I call your name, you get one of those cloths. (claps hand) 12. 10. Thank you, we– I woke up Mother and got two dollars. (laughs) Ten dollars. Come. Thank you. All right, come on, come on. That’s penance for going to sleep. Oh, that’s sweet of you. Come on, let’s see, let’s see now. Eight? Thank you. (Pause) All right, everybody, get the change, I mean dig down and get the change. We can make it with the change. Dig down there. What did you say? Fine, dig down there, it– it–the only change is going to come is seven or eight dollars, or 10, (unintelligible word) like that. Dig down. Whoop! Don’t– don’t pass that plate too fast. Wait– wait now, wait. Start up here.
Voice in Crowd: Laughs
Jones: You startin’ in the middle. You know, you guys– you guys got to get a system with this thing. Pass it down one row? Is that the only row in that place? I mean, I want this to go up and down every row. Come on, folk. What you doing? Let’s get some organization [with] this offering business. Everybody get change in your hand. (pause) Huh? Oh, well (sighs) Hazel Grigsby. (pause) All right. Fine, put it down. (long pause) Hmm. (pause) Hmm. (long pause) Anybody named Polly that’s– Polly that’s a got a plastic uh, purse– type plastic purse, red– red plastic purse? Hmm? (pause) Polly? Uh, back– back there. Put that on her. May give– give her vibrations, (Pause) give her vibrations, that come that she have to take care of things– at different– different places, different reasons. (pause) Who’s driving the car you in? Gwen–
Voice in Crowd: (unintelligible)
Jones: Who’s driving the car you’re in?
Female: (unintelligible name)
Jones: Okay, gotta have this. Keep this on.
Jones: Sister Yee. Watch traveling on old Hoplin Road. If you’re ever on Old Hoplin Road. Went out Lakeport way, if you’re ever in that vicinity, be careful.
Female: Thank you, thank you.
Jones: It’s most important.
Female: Thank you.
Jones: It’s something I see ahead–
Female: Thank you.
Jones: And we watch your driving very carefully, and the two minute meditation. Tell her about this–
Female: Thank you.
Jones: Everyone get their change? I’m still on uh– on command. I’m on command here. Did it drop? Did it hit the floor? Well, I’m not blaming anybody but there’s– there– I just don’t want– if it hits the floor, I don’t want it to go back, even though I touch it.
(Long pause, with organ playing)
Jones: I have known for some time that the Thomas’ are not in the church. I’ve kn– known this, it’s been brought to my attention. You react to them like you would everyone that’s outside. (pause) Draw in– Draw in close, not for you maybe, for somebody, just draw in close. We need money, but you risk things with money. Draw in real close. (Pause) Remember tomorrow night. We may have some films, we’re not just sure on this, but (unintelligible word) our healing service– our healing service tomorrow night– our healing service tomorrow night, we’ll get into that, emphasis more– (Pause) Uh, I need to talk to uh, (Pause) Jane Mutschsmann and– No, I don’t need to– (Pause) Please be looking for a car for our people to get around, for Simon Peter to get around. I mean we will keep a close look out on that. Anyone that has– knows of a car, all secretaries alert this. Sent to San– to Los Angeles too, that all secretaries, every place, to look for an extra car. Yes?
Voice in Crowd: (unintelligible)
Jones: Well, if she wants to donate a car, that’s fine. That’s what we want is a car. Yes, that would be– that would be fine. That’s beautiful. Yes? (Pause) I– I– you– whatever you have to say– bring that– uh, Jim Cobb’ll go back and find out what she had to say. I don’t want to– I don’t want to hold another minute– I don’t want to hold another minute. (Pause) Okay– Okay– Okay. You’re free. Get your–
(Music organ plays)
Jones: Get your– Peace! Get whatever you’re going to get to eat–
End of tape
Tape originally posted March 2017