Q568 Transcript

(Editor’s note: The tape was transcribed by Vicki Perry. The editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.)

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Jones: –and it’s oh– Goddamn it– I’m just– it makes me sick. I gu– I just don’t care to get anything–

(tape edit )

Jones: ‘Cause she [Clara Phillips] didn’t only take a property, and we have to go around and buy our goddamned property back, but then on her way out, after she got a good price for her property – she wouldn’t tell me – she’s (unintelligible phrase) that I’m trying to kill her. It’s like [Jack] Arnold did, I’m tired of these fuckers. I think I’ll put her on my list here. Uh, ‘cause that’s– that’s really– that’s really bad– that’s really bad shit.

Woman’s voice in background: Yes, it is.

Jones: She told a– a John Birch member that we– she had to flee– I’m fleeing for my life and I’ve got my daughter [Janet Phillips] to safety. And then, she told Johnson that.

Marceline: Well when Janet left, she told the hospital–

Jones: She told the hospital.

Marceline: –to look in on her mother–

Jones: Yeah, because I– I–

Marceline: –that we were going to hurt her mother. Janet did.

Jones: Marceline [Jones] or I would kill her mother. You know that kind of damned shit, and everybody knows that I don’t go around killing nobody. I never killed nobody in my life. Just drop the protection. They can drop me, but I haven’t even tried to do that to them. I said one of these selfish– Let ‘em go on out, ‘cause selflessness is its own reward. They’re already unhappy.

Male voice in background: Hmm.

Jones: Janet’s a whore. Janet Phillips is a whore. I had to admit it, she’s a whore. She was seen in Reno, Nevada whoring around with a man and turned two to three different people she’d been with.

Woman’s voice: Yeah, that’s right.

Jones: She seemed to Alice [Inghram]– they look like– look like hell had struck her. And you mention with Vickie [Moore]. They look like hell strikes her.

Woman 2: Yeah.

Male: That’s right.

Jones: I don’t have to do nothing with these people. Selfishness is its own pain. So I’d rather be in pain for something principled and die for that, than worry about saving my ass. That’s–and that’s why– I wouldn’t get as nervous as you people do, if you think you’re going to die. If all of you people didn’t understand me even though I was a pure communist. If all of you people don’t understand me, and you’re ready to kill me there ain’t no use for me in fighting it. (Pause) How’d you like to kill me or I’d get away and move someplace where there’s some others. I sure wouldn’t try to do no harm to you. And I wouldn’t be worrying about it, one way or the other–

Woman’s voice: I don’t have–

Jones: –and I’d probably figure if all of you didn’t understand me– and there would– no shittin’ use for me to try to go someplace else where they don’t speak my language and fight a revolution, ‘cause the people speaking– and the English don’t understand me, ain’t no goddamned use for me to some place where they’re speaking Spanish.

Group: (Laughs)

Marceline Jones: I don’t understand people wanting to live any way, ‘cause I am–

Jones: Well, hell, yes you– only live old enough to be in a nursing home to have your–

Marceline: Personally, I hope– you know I don’t believe in the hereafter, but if I did, I wouldn’t to have any part of it. I– Heaven to me would be never feeling again.

Jones: Hmm. That would be the only way to have heaven.

Marceline: And I–

Jones: Unfortunately, there’s some kind of immortality (unintelligible).

Marceline: Uh, Phillip– (unintelligible)

Jones: Yeah, that’s– that’s good. That’s good. But you got this coming. I– I– I– I (unintelligible) feel, that’s my bad part. I don’t keep on center, and you need to drive me to center. I was trying to teach the difference between socialism and communism, and then under communism, I want to put a tail on this end– if you’ve got something to say that’s relevant, (unintelligible word), don’t let me forget where I’m at. Mike [Prokes], you’ll let me know where I’m at.

Mike: Okay.

Jones: I’m trying to– we dealt with socialism. You understand what socialism is now?

Group: (Responds)

Jones: In communism, all property is done away. No– No more trespass sign. No more, this is my house. No more on the mailbox, Jones’ h– property or Smith’s property. It’s all held in common. Then after it’s all held in common, in a sufficient idealistic stage that people can be trusted– I– I would have a feeling, with some of you, I wouldn’t have to tell you what was in your mind. Charlie [Touchette] said– he– he– he ain’t go no money in his pocket but when he left the house, he said, here, take uh, all the shirts. That kind of an attitude. That’s what you get when you’re pure communist. You don’t worry about it– and I say any– anything that I– I had, just take it.

Marceline: And that doesn’t mean, just because it’s nobody’s property, that it’s nobody’s responsibility. It’s everybody’s responsibility.

Jones: No.

Male: (unintelligible)

Marceline: That’s the problem. You people that think you throw your clothes down and don’t shine your shoes are not materialistic. You are materialistic, because you don’t take care of what–

Jones: ‘Cause you cost us more money. You cost us more money by (unintelligible word) those clothes.

Male: Hmmm.

Woman: (in background) That’s true. That’s true.

Jones: And I haven’t felt bad about that. I felt guilt about all these shoes today, and I didn’t bring boots. Now (unintelligible word), what the hell’s the matter with you, you didn’t bring any boots? Uh, but I– I didn’t uh– I– but I also felt guilty I didn’t bring an extra pair of boots when we had to– We didn’t know until the last minute, I was going to come. Arnold was caught with so much shit. And I said I can’t disappoint these people, I battle back and forth. I can’t disappoint the Promised Land anymore, so I–

Male: (in background) Hmm-mmm. That’s right.

Jones: –ready to travel, and I’m nervous as hell what’s going on back there, ‘cause Arnold’s been a real shithead.

Marceline: You haven’t been able to get through on the radio.

Jones: (talking over woman) That’s how much I love you, ‘cause I came here really contrary in any good (unintelligible word)sense, with Arnold acting up like he is.

Male: Hmm-hmm [Yes].

Jones: You never leave when a traitor’s acting up, if you got good sense. You stay on a post (unintelligible word) I thought I cancelled you three times, and piss on ‘em. So I’m here and then I– Then I can’t make any radio contact, I just have to sit here and meditate that it’ll be all right. And it will. It’ll work out somehow.

Woman: I just think–

Jones: Again, I– you remind me of that (unintelligible word), ‘cause I don’t know how the hell it’s going to work out. ‘Cause in my (unintelligible word) when I think it ain’t working out. But the uh– uh, I felt bad I didn’t think to take any kind of boots, I felt bad I didn’t ti me to bring movies, but we didn’t know for shit whether we were gonna get to go until the last thing.

Woman: (interrupting Jones) Just– Just having you here, you can’t imagine what it means to us.

Several in group: (Laughs)

Jones: Now, I know you (unintelligible word)feel that way, but I still– I won’t take my guilt away. I won’t let you take all my guilt away. I wish to hell we’da planned better.

Group: (Laughs)

Male: I think– I think uh, that uh, somebody like Ellen [likely Penny Kerns] or Eva [Pugh] ought to send us down a package with complete gear for both of you to wear when you’re down there, then you won’t ever have to worry about bringing these things down here, they’ll just be put back, and they’ll be here when you get here.

(Jones and woman speaking at same time)

Marceline: My problem– my problem was I worked till Thursday.

Jones: Well, my problem is I get all– more stuff than us actually leave. That’s why I (unintelligible) things I want to leave. Every time we come here I bring stuff I want to leave. I brought a watch, and I’m going to leave that watch. Every time– there’s a lot of taking things of that– of that nature. But the damn watch isn’t working very well– what does it happen to these watches when we get down here?

(Several voices override Jones)

Male: It’s the climate– they–

Woman: They need to be waterproof.

Male: We got these four dollar watches that are– that are all right. We shouldn’t be wearing wrist– wristwatches when we go into Georgetown anyway and uh–

Marceline: Well, I gave Jan mine, ‘cause I thought she should have one with a second hand for– for that clinic– but at the time–

Jones: Yeah. But she used it– (unintelligible) sense to wear it in front of people that just be enticing you. ‘Cause you can get your damn throat slit by looking too well dressed.

Marceline: (unintelligible) pocket watch here and this seems to be better (unintelligible)–

(Several people talk at once_

Jones: The little selfish preacher in Los Angeles got murdered uh– just week before last. That’s what– (stumbles over words) you left that selfish preacher in San Francisco got murdered. They put him in the trunk of the car, you remember? They put him in the trunk (unintelligible). They murdered him and put him in the trunk– Church of God in Christ preacher, ‘cause he had a ring on. So you see, selfishness is its own reward. When you walk down as a socialist today (unintelligible under movement of microphone) you don’t got a lot of property, don’t have to– to have yourself looking real keen. You look real keen, walk down the street, you’re trying to get your ass killed.

Woman: That’s right.

Jones: You look like a bum, they’ll let you walk anywhere.

Group: (Laughs)

(Several people all talking together)

Jones: There’s a lot of redeeming things to be said about this country. Though I’m a depressionist, because I want– always cynically look at our strategy, but I’ve never been so impressed as to be able to walk right in your prime minister’s office, and you can look like a damn bum. I was sitting there and some bum walked up. I mean he just walked up. He had a gripe with the prime minister, and the secretary was just as patient with that person as if they’d been somebody stepped out of a Cadillac, probably far more. I just want to get all these incongruities put together in my mind and know exactly where we are in Guyana. Maybe they just don’t trust us, because they don’t think we’re socialists. Maybe they don’t trust us because they think we’re too socialist, but I doubt that. If they– If that’s the case, we do have problems.

Woman: Uh–

Jones: Uh– Back to the stages of communism. So government– government– government– government withers away, when you have all properties held in common and everybody can be trusted, like Charlie and I can share shirts and we bring each other’s shirts back like it was when we took them. And we don’t have to (unintelligible word) any police then any more. China’s already done away with its local police in most cities, ‘cause there’s no theft, there’s no murder– There was seven murders last year, there’s no murders this year. And that’s– that’s pretty– that’s a pretty strong evidence that communism will work. No police in any of the big cities any more. No theft. They– They don’t lock a hotel room, don’t lock the car door. You never see nobody throw any litter on the streets. As my mo– mom– mother [Lynetta Jones] said, responsibility goes along with communism. Everybody feels they own that street, and everybody’ll take care of that street, so nobody spits on that street, and there isn’t a piece of litter. You can see the movie. Too bad we didn’t bring one of the movies, to see how clean everything is. Because of the pride. Then, the– uh– uh, the Marx communist thought is, after people come to that stage, perfection, pure living, as was the day of Pentecost (unintelligible word), religious identification for the few that needed it. Uh, pure socialism. Pure communism. Socialism, communism, the last stage. Then you need no more government. You don’t need nobody to tell you what to do, what (unintelligible). You don’t need no leaders like me. Everybody has a conscience that leads them and directs them. But that’s a long way off.

Voices: Assent.

Jones: That don’t happen tomorrow.

Male: No.

Jones: And if you say, well, I don’t want to follow no leader, ‘cause I’m ready for communism, then you got to be a better leader than the leader you’re criticizing.

Woman: Assents.

Jones: And if you’re a better leader than the real leader you’re criticizing, you’re going to work with that leader a long, long time before you even (unintelligible word) think that you’re a better leader (unintelligible).

Woman: That’s true. (unintelligible). I think, though, uh–

Jones: How many understood that, though? I want to know how many understood that (unintelligible). You got any more questions? You could ask me. (unintelligible) explain it to you. Some of you got it now, you can explain it to him, ‘cause now he’s come a long way.

Male: What’s– what would be– is there anything about communism– I mean if– if like in a hundred years or whatever the period of time it’d be that– like China would achieve the purest communist goal or–

Jones: They’ll never a– achieve pure communism until it’s international communism. You see, before the war, you couldn’t do away with your army because–

Male: Yeah.

Jones: You only got a bunch of capitalist pigs on your border, you– you always got to have a strong army.

Male: Well, like, let’s say it’s international communism, then what would be– what would– Is there anything above the commu– the communists, or is it just the ultimate thing–

Marceline: What could be any higher than–

Male: Well, that– that’s what–

Woman: You know, everybody being so selfless, you don’t even need government.

Jones: Perfection of understanding and love. Perfect sharing– perfect sharing. No more jealousy. That’s what I would see as the ideal (unintelligible word). Like I’m at, right now. My wife wants you? You want my wife? And I love you both. Happy, happy. When you love somebody, you don’t want to hold them. You want to free them. You understand what I’m saying?

Male: Umm-hmm [Yes].

Jones: But, being that no other communist nation has tried that, I’d– I would say Jones, temper your own goodness, ‘cause people are not ready for that goodness. You see what I’m saying? That’s why I don’t forge ahead in the Peoples Temple, to do that. Make a demand. Ideas, that’s where we’d be better off. Then there’d be no dangers of pocket relationships forming. But if you don’t see it practically done anywhere– Where Lenin started and backed off from it, he must’ve had some reasons to back off from it. He must have found it to be, don’t need every counter-revolutionary tendencies of the first magnitude. My opinion is, if you backed off from it– if you backed off from coupling relationships, you should back off from sex. Because sex can’t be shared for this reason. The fucker that’s the best looking gets more, ‘cause it’s so superficial.

Male: Umm-hmm.

Jones: Sex is superficial. The best fucker gets more (unintelligible). Now if I were a very selfish person I’d say, let’s make it all free, ‘cause I’d get most of the fucking. You hear what I’m saying?

Several voices: Assent.

Jones: I don’t mean that smart ass either. Because I can fuck longer, I can fuck more actively than the norm, I– I’d get more service. So it’s obvious that I– uh– I’m very, very unselfish. I don’t break that up. But then, I always look behind at sex is a masquerade anyway, it’s a big masquerade. I don’t care how well you fuck, and I’ve fucked for hours. It’s a big masquerade. Women can’t do anything but hate men, because they’ve been the oppressed class too long. That’s what you don’t show when you throw your dick out. They don’t be interested in your dick. Only some women, and they’ll slip up on you some night and they’ll cut your fucking dick off.

Woman: That’s right.

Jones: ‘Cause they– they– they’re really upset about dicks in the first place. What women really want from men is camaraderie. I’ve been through too many women sexually, and I’ve got enough sexual ability. I– It just uh– like CT [Charlie Touchette] has been capable as a salesman. I’m capable as a fucker. But I still– You know I (unintelligible). You hear something.

Women in background laugh

Jones: But I have found, that no (unintelligible word) how much capability I had, it never bred the best things in the woman. Share my mind with them, it bred good things, but sharing my body did not. Unfortunately, to the discredit of women, I had to start there sometimes. (Pause) That’s a honest statement.

Male: Umm-hmm.

Jones: A very dangerous statement to make in a general church situation, because it can be used against you, and I’ve done this even publicly, which is stupid, and honestly, it does not pay off with some people. (unintelligible phrase), I’m not concerned about it, but in the church setting, it’s a very dangerous thing, and you’ve heard me say that (unintelligible).

Male: Yes.

Woman: Umm-hmm.

Jones: And it’s a very stupid thing to say and be that honest. ‘Cause the person, aha! The only– the only way people give to you sexually is because they think that they– (Pause) they’re very important and uh, (Pause) they’re very exceptional. (Pause) Well, I’ve never felt anybody– found my match in screwing, so nothing challenges me too much. You get what I’m saying?

Male: Yeah, yeah.

Jones: Ain’t nothing challenges me that much. Somebody says, that’s the way (unintelligible phrase), you know, you know your leader’s not going to go off track. I’ve screwed ‘em all. And every screw is about the same. But, even with my proficiency in screwing, it hasn’t been adequate to meet anybody’s needs. Basically, it’s engendered insecurity, it’s engender– (unintelligible word)– the only real value it’s been is with our few traitors. I think some others who’ve come to maturity coulda come in other ways. And I think they can come in other ways. Let me tell about one woman I screwed for seven hours. Maybe that woman alone had to do it, ‘cause she was really caught up in it. There’s some other women fuck for different reasons. You fuck for treason, you fuck to make people grow, fuck for pleasure, and damn little of that I get, uh, if you understand what I’m saying, because if you love, you’re gonna be thinking about what the person needs, and that does take away from screwing. How many ever been screwing and thinking about– how many can honestly lift their hand and say when you were screwing somebody, you were thinking about their general welfare?

Group: (Laughs)

Jones:S o, I’m always thinking about the general welfare. I figure I’m starting something, I can’t give them all what they need. A woman don’t need to be screwed, she needs all the things that maybe I can give her. I can give her a home, I can give her support, I can give her um– benefit of my mind, I can help her rear the children, help do the domestic duties, but I can’t do that. So I– I’m always thinking about those things. So, I don’t like to take anything when I can’t give more than sex. I’m thinking about their general welfare. That’s why I’ve given up screwing as a– as a therapy. Uh, I didn’t keep all my treasures. Did save Grace Stoen from doing a hell of a big thing, but it cost me a hell of a big pain too. Probably took years off my life. Grace Stoen’s been workin’, ‘cause she’s grown nth degrees. Hell, we know this and don’t need to talk about it.

Male: Yeah. Yes.

(couple of voices all talking simultaneously)

Jones: Yeah, well, anyway, they (unintelligible) out this shit. They– he explained it enough, I nearly died. Tim Stoen. I don’t do nothing for nobody’s wife. Tim Stoen asked me to save her, and she was about to commit treason, and so I ended up with the goddamned pain of it. And his mamma knows, ‘cause she’s on the government board so I don’t care uh– I ended up with a– a little– little one [John Victor Stoen] to have to maintain. Isn’t nothing more cruel to me than having somebody brought in this world to maintain, ‘cause I would never’ve brought anybody into this world, if I had to do with it. That’s why children all are– they all hate their parents, I’m sure. They got good sense. The parents will say, “you should honor me.” If anything, theparents should honor the damn child, because it’s a hell of a cruel thing to bring them into the world. And all of the guilt that I have, it was one of the most courageous things I ever did, ‘cause when I screw, I get people pregnant through rubbers or whatever. It’s bad. It’s a bad deal. I can’t help but think about that, so that takes away from the pleasure too, you know. If you can’t– if you’re unselfish you got– and I don’t think you can get the– if you get unselfish, I just think you give up what’s true, and that’s what I think it really boils down to. If you really get unselfish, just give the damned thing up, because it’s a uh– a selfish act. It really boils down to that. And it’ll never be shared equally, because I’ve tried hard, for this cause, and to save and to get you things, I’ve screwed people 60, nearly 70. I’ve screwed the ugliest people I’ve ever seen. And I don’t mean anybody– in any group– in the group here or at home. I mean the ugliest people I’ve ever met. Prostitutes (unintelligible word). That’s the only place a prostitute can be accepted. She’s ready to commit suicide. Would be no good to say you got a sweet soul, she had to feel that she looked good. But she was over the hill. But I still see sexual preferences. Certain bodies look better. Certain things add to the attraction. And anything that’s discriminatory is not love. If it’s love in the equal (unintelligible). Wouldn’t it? If it was love (unintelligible) at all. But you don’t have sexual preference to save people, do you?

Several: No.

Jones: So you know it’s not a high form of– of– of love. (Pause) So if I were to– and the group– What we would ought to be at this revolutionary stage is no sex, including the leader. And the leader would be glad to give it up, but the only reason I haven’t been able to give it up is that sometimes that’s the only way I can keep somebody from hurting you. And I’ve tried to give it up, while you were gone. Been trying for several months. None of it. It was totally banned. And by God, we had treason. And I had to– They started– They would– They didn’t keep their word. They didn’t keep their word. We had people doing treason sex. How long was it, about three months? You were all gone. Three months? Four months? Prokes?

Prokes: Yeah.

Jones: I– I– I want to be accurate. It musta been three or four months, it was totally banned.

Prokes: At least three months.

Jones: And treason started out. And by God, when somebody starts using sex and acting treasonous, I got to show ‘em, well, you can’t screw as well as I do. You see, you get the point?

Several: Yeah. Umm-hmm.

Jones: I got to move in there and show, well, you fucker, you going to try and fuck one of people away into capitalism and into death? I’ll fuck ‘em back into socialism. If that makes any sense.

Voices: Assent

Jones: And obviously, I’m very honest, because of the sex drive I need. I need to relax and get some of that pressure out, but when you’re honest like this, nobody can– nobody can relate to you, because they’re paranoid. Then they have all these (unintelligible word) with me because I’m a traitor or you dealing with me because I need to grow. E– everybody gets insecure about it. So I’ve cut myself from all expression except talking, and I sure hate to talk. Maria [Katsaris], I said the other day, somebody said, well, I’ve never asked you to fuck. I said, you talk so goddamned much, I wish you’da asked me to fuck, because if I’da fucked you three times, it woulda been a hell of a lot less weight on me than all the fucking talking. You can fuck a Father in a lot of ways. So he started (unintelligible word) I’ve never fucked with Father, but you’ve talked me to death.

Woman: Un-hmm.

Jones: You know what I’m saying? I’m not saying anybody here. But people can talk your fucking ass off, and I’d just as soon have a raw dick, as a raw throat. Right, Mother?

Marceline: Yeah. (laughs)

Jones: I mean a throat hurts too.


Jones: And I don’t mean you, ‘cause you’ve got to have this teaching,. You’re not asking for it. You’re trying to get me out of it. You’ve not held on to me. Nobody’s done anything– anything bad to me here. But at home, they do it all the time. They talk me to death. I get tired of those self-righteous people. (Assumes tone of critic) I know how many people fucking Father. (Normal tone) I said, well, quit talking me to death too, you sons of bitches.

Marceline: I’ve found–

Jones: You know it’s equally bad just to talk somebody to death.

Marceline: And also–

Jones: Some of you are beautiful. You don’t fuck me, you don’t talk to me either. (Short laugh)

Marceline: Some of the people that are– get the most angry about, you know–

Jones: It’s because they haven’t been fucked.

Marceline: It– It’s because there– there’s not enough time for them to have it, you know. The people that say, you know, I get mad at these people pulling on him. Now this is normal.

Jones: I invite self-criticism, and that is a good point, I’m glad you brought that up.

Marceline: –or a setup.

Jones: I invite self-criticism in the– in the PC [Planning Commission]. And so, a woman made this very statement. She got a– she wrote me a letter. Oh, we must sin and serve. Father, you’re prejudiced. You fuck only white women. Of course, she didn’t know what she was talking about. ‘Cause I– I never do– I never embarrassed a black person or a person who’s a Native American. They are already niggerized. The white people don’t want me to get niggerized. She don’t know what the hell she talking about.

Prokes: She wanted it.

Jones: She didn’t know– but– but– but she– oh, the goddamnedest charges. She said, you are prejudiced, you only fuck white women, (makes “blah blah” noises). And she thought I was just going to read this. Joyce Shaw is the one that did it. I said, nah, sister, you’ve sent me a message in the calmest voice. And she counted on one of either two things, I either fuck her or throw her out. And I didn’t do either one, and she was really frustrated.

Group: (Laughs)

Jones: And she’s come along pretty well. I said, now, sister, I’m going to read this, and her face turns four flushes of red. I– I– she want to read all public? I said yes, I’ve got nothing to hide. A– Any criticism you want to give me, I’ve got an answer for, because I’m pure, I’m honest.

Male: That’s right.

Jones: So I dealt with this, I said, now, you don’t know the black ones, because I don’t intend for you to know the black ones, they’ve had enough pain. You’ve only known the white ones. And I said now if– if– if it’s discriminatory, if it’s anything, you accuse me of fucking the white. I said, what is sex? It’s a hostile act. It’s aggressive. I’m very aggressive. So I said, if anything, it– uh, I’m prejudiced against white.

Male: Right.

Jones: –if I’d only fuck white people.

Group: (Laughs)

Jones: You get the point, because the sexual part of me is a very aggressive side. (unintelligible sentence). And the only reason I’m saying is that because I might have to fuck somebody here.

Male: You’re the only one that can do it.

Jones: But it’s the truth. It’s the truth that gentleness is there, but the gentler I get, the further I get away from sex. If you follow me. You follow what I’m saying?

Scattered voices in group: Yeah.

Jones: The gentler moment is further away from it, because my– I’m very aggressive. I can– I can uh, give it all that– oh, shit, with this stuff is heavy (unintelligible) reason it’s such a painful subject. I hate to talk about it, and (unintelligible word) to talk about it, and it’s painful to you who have has been through it. (Sighs)

Woman: (unintelligible)

Jones: I said that.

Woman: Yeah, I say I– (unintelligible)

Jones: I– I– I– and who you think I’m talking about?

Marceline: Uh– It’s not– it’s not so painful. It’s just that it’s–

Jones: But you know– you know–

Marceline: Why– why you keep on needing it.

Jones: But you know it’s necessary, don’t you? ‘Cause she said that just this morning. You know it’s necessary–

Marceline: I think–

Jones: Not in this setting. We weren’t talking about it in this setting.

Marceline: I think it’s too bad that women and in– in life, uh– are so– that they think that love is synonymous with sex.

Jones: Contrary. It’s on the contrary.

Marceline: It’s the contrary. It’s hostile. Sex is hostile.

Jones: It’s an aggressive act. And I insist you women are just as aggressive as the men are.

Marceline: That’s right.

Jones: You don’t want (unintelligible word) conservative, but you’re just as aggressive.

Marceline: That’s the way you have of controlling a man. I’m telling you that when women are liberated, you men are going to be liberated. If you think you’re liberated when you’ve got a woman under your thumb, you are a slave, ‘cause you’ve got to have that woman under your thumb to feel secure. You’re a slave to your own insecurity.

Prokes: That’s right.

Jones: And it’s not my– It’s not– It’s not my theory either. You go and read any psychiatrist, even the capitalist world, and they’ll tell you in all their studies in there, and they’ve done analysis, they’ve backed it up with some empirical evidence whereas this psychiatrist you were mentioning, I said, I’d like to know where his evidence is. He may have something. Uh, it’s hard for me to relate to his evidence. I do want to read that book, though, don’t let me forget to get that book. (unintelligible word). But they have done test after test on survey after survey of thousands of women, how you like sex? And sex will be– I think it’s number seven on the list of priorities. Women are just not interested that much in sex. And the only reason they’re interested in it is because (unintelligible word) because they’re masochistic uh, and because they are also unliberated, and if a man approves of them, then that means that they’re more important.

Marceline: Sadists.

Jones: Sadists, yes, it’s sadist.

Marceline: Powerful.

Jones: But uh– But the sex act itself to a woman is very low on the priorities list. Very low on the priorities. And I’m– I’m going by lots of documented evidence. So no man needs to feel insecure, because he don’t think his wife’s performing, and the best performers are the prostitutes. That’s why men go to them and pay forty dollars for a (unintelligible word).

Marceline: And they don’t give a–

Jones: And uh a– all prostitutes by a test after test are lesbians who hate men, but they just learn how to say the right “ooh,” where you’re supposed to say it, and the right “aah’s” and they move the hip just right. (Fake orgasmic sigh) You know, all those sighs that men call for. I can see through those sighs. Shit. I see those sighs. All the women got about the same sighs anyway. Particularly if you s– are very sharp and been around as much as I have. The shar– their sighs are so much– they musta been teaching each other, where their sighs are supposed to come, and if I was paranoid– I’d give the little– I’d– I’d– the ones, they don’t have a conspiracy, so they get together, how to trick men.

Group: (laughter)

Marceline: Uh, the other uh– To switch to another subject, but the thing that I had to really deal with, and probably it’s the hardest thing, I mean, like the fact that all you women were screwing my husband, but the fact that you use me to get near him and didn’t– you know– uh– I had to face the fact that there are very few–

Jones: There ain’t nobody woman here, no woman here she’s talking to, so you better be careful with what you say.

Marceline: No, I’m not talking– but– No– I’m talking about, you know, out here, in the whole church situation, and being– being the leader’s wife–

Jones: She’s talking about somebody we talked this morning, and that is the truth. That’s where (unintelligible).

Marceline: It’s a lonely– it’s a lonely situation. Uh, you know, as far as really having any friends, I mean people you can talk to, there’s nobody, really, usually. But you still– I– I was really Pollyannaish, and I needed the camaraderie of another woman or other women, you know, someone I could talk to. And to– the hardest thing for me to face was the fact that most women didn’t give a damn about being a friend to me, but used me to get to him.

Jones: She’s talking about a woman that you wouldn’t think about, and wouldn’t know that is not commonly known to leadership.

Marceline: Now, that’s not true of everyone. It’s about something I had–

Jones: She’s speaking about a specific woman, but I don’t want you to make any deductions about women back home in leadership, ‘cause she’s wro– uh– she’s not– she’s not aiming– uh, aiming that at any– any woman that you would know. You wouldn’t guess it– you wouldn’t guess it. I– I– I can tell ya nine– nine– nine million dollars, she– none of you could have (unintelligible word)t.

Marceline: But it is the–

Jones: There’s a woman, she thought she could find some camaraderie, not sex, but camaraderie, because Marceline and I had sexual fulfillment, as much as sex goes. She’s had more orgasms than (unintelligible word) have and uh, occasionally Marceline uh, has fought battles in terms of sexual and my ugly and uh– She’s not ugly to me, she’s a very attractive woman. So that’s the only purpose sex has had with her, and it’s greatly diminished for that need to feel important.

Marceline: No, you know, I don’t uh– but I can’t– This is down through the years though. The right– but today we were talking about me, as a person that happens to do with uh, family, but down through the years, this has been the hardest thing for me to overcome. But that was selfish of me, you know. It wasn’t the highest in me.

Jones: She wasn’t hearing my message fully, because nobody loves Father.

Male: Hmm.

Jones: So why should they love Mother? If they don’t love the leader who’s the closest to the power, they’re not going to love the second closest to the power. Everybody uses me, and I accept that as a fact of life. I– I would be no more effective than– Someone said to me, uh, and I said to I don’t know I– (unintelligible under movement of microphone) but I said well, that’s why I– I follow you, because you got Lester’s (unintelligible word). Well the first place, I didn’t try to (unintelligible). I was just peeling my heart and Lester’s heart, talking about Lester [Matheson], you’re needed here. And I didn’t get down on whether Lester was (unintelligible word) here, ‘cause somebody– I went home and thought, my God. Notice I say home. Home is where anyplace I’m at too. Some of you talkin’ about home being here or America, I don’t give a shit where home is. It can be in that shithouse, I don’t– home is (laughs) where I–

Marceline: (unintelligible) (laughs)

Prokes: That’s where my home’s been anyway. (laughs)

Jones: But I thought, now that person is saying about the truth. But they ought to deal with that truth. And I don’t mean this unkindly to you, and I don’t want you to feel that I do, but you were saying, as long as I’m effective, Jim Jones, I follow you. Nobody else could talk Lester into staying, so that’s why I follow you. You get what I’m saying? In so many terms, in so many words?

Scattered voices: That’s right.

Jones: But I wasn’t trying to get Lester to stay, I was just being principled with Lester. I’d already made up my mind, if Lester wanted to come home, he wanted to get on (unintelligible word) boat and save him some money and from there on to Miami, he could get back in the States. Uh, but the moment I cannot keep Lester’s home and somebody else can do that, this is home. That showed my Freudian feeling, this is the best home you can get, under the present circumstances. I think you are fortunate to be here. You can always tell a person by their Freudian talk. And that’s uh– so I think this is the best home you got. And I didn’t want to see Lester go back to America, ‘cause that’s– that’s (unintelligible word). That’s dangerous. It’s deathly. Here, at least you won’t face concentration camps. You can go in the jungle, by God. No matter what happens to this government, you can go in the jungle. You don’t have to go in that concentration camp. And uh– there’s– there’s not very many in this country, wouldn’t take many guns to be able to defend yourself in this country. (unintelligible word) There’s less than a million people. Three quarters of a million people in the whole damned country, most of them in Georgetown.

Woman: Uh-hmm.

Jones: You got a real advantage. With a few more people, we got the majority out here. Ain’t nobody going to push us around. That’s why it appeals to me. Not because [Forbes] Burnham’s a great man. I got doubts about Burnham. I got less doubts about [Ptolemy] Reid, but I– even– none of them. It– It’s just that I like this where we got lots of room. Lots of trees. And we need to get more finesse about how to get through those trees. ‘Cause now, only with my homing, it– I can go in these goddamned woods and come out in the same place. I did it in Matthew’s Ridge. I did it last– yesterday. Yesterday.

Woman: This morning?

Male: This morning?

Jones: Uh, no.

Marceline: Is– what time is it?

Jones: I went for three hours when I went out in the jungle and I went through the goddamned– I’m going to test my homing powers, you know. I thought, if I’m here, I want to test it, because we have very little jungle training, so I went through the goddamned jungle and then I come right back up here, straight across here, the length. I– I wandered for three hours in that jungle. I wouldn’t recommend you do that, because that’s a damned confusing jungle, but I got a homing sense or something. I don’t know what the hell it is, but I come right back to where I come out. I did it at Matthew’s Ridge. All (unintelligible under microphone). I took the liberty. All that first week I took liberty (unintelligible word). I’ve been into the goddamned jungle and then I’m right back out to our dining room. And they didn’t know shit from apple butter where they were. ‘Cause you get in that jungle and you can’t see a thing. It all– it’s everything, the sky. You don’t see nothing. The– The trees are so high and the brush is so high. You can’t see around that. So, what I started to say about homing, We got off on a tangent. That’s why I don’t have a good memory. I try to (unintelligible).

Marceline: He’s better than anyone else to keep from–

(End of Side A)


(Side B)

Jones:– and had that many group– uh, had that group you got down to see that is a (unintelligible word) point of reaction. I rarely see that here. And they see me in that role here.

Marceline:Now could I– I wanted to ana– analyze (unintelligible) a little bit of what happened with Lester and you. I think sometimes the reason some of us cannot reach people in their despair is because we don’t love enough to share enough of ourselves – our true selves – and be honest with those people.


Marceline:‘Course, the person that you’re talking to has to be at a point of honesty too, to be able to accept that honesty and I think Lester at that point was


Marceline:–but I think– I think it was the love and the honesty which you felt made it, that I’ve known of, and unless you can really share what you are with someone, you don’t love ‘em. You hope– you know, and– and we do this because we’re afraid we’re going to be hurt. You know. It’s the– we protect ourselves (unintelligible word).

Male:That’s what I said to (unintelligible name). I’ve made the comment when I was taken to– t– to whenever I was taking him to the boat, I said that, you know, if it would have been any of us and we’d been put in the same position of trying to uh– uh, get anyone, not just Lester but it was Lester, ‘cause of him. Anyone to– to see reason about actually what he should do with his life. ‘Cause no one could have done it except for Father. He’s the only one that has that type of uh–

Marceline:He’s the only one that got us somewhere.

Jones:And probably I would’ve got it done then, if I’d had the ego, but somebody said you knew, uh– Somebody else said, you knew you were going to keep him here. I said no, I didn’t know I was going to keep him here. If I had known I was going to keep him here, he probably wouldn’t have stayed, ‘cause nobody responds to a– a damned arrogant attitude. You people know why I felt about it, ‘cause in the– in the city I talked about just exactly how he’d go home.

Several voices:Uh-hmm.

Jones:I had it all worked out and arranged, how he’d go home.

Woman:(unintelligible) anyway.

Jones:Sure. And any leader that goes in with a cocksure attitude he’s going to change people’s minds is a damned poor leader. No (unintelligible word) any operation like that.

Marceline:Not only that, it’s– you know, the very quality that uh– oh, how do I want to say this? The– the very thing that makes you good quality is the fact that you are able to think for yourselves. You– Most of you people were not blind followers.

Jones:(unintelligible) sleeping and so forth.

Marceline:And uh– As I said, it’s not conflict that’s wrong. Out of conflict, comes growth, if you don’t do some foolish thing. It’s conflict.

Male:That’s why I’m having trouble with– it’s like– I know that I was never hung up in religion and– and– whenever I first came, I knew life was– the– the thing that you had was real, because it’s touched me so many times. I knew it was real. But I’ve toyed and I’ve thought in my mind, if you– I thought, if– if you would happen to leave the scene, and you– someone else would be put in command that would– that you were sure, and you were only sure that if he could have the thing that– that could keep us together, then we would haveto. It would be our duty as a socialist. If we would even thought we were a small part of a socialist, we would have to follow the person, because it’s our duty.

Marceline:We’d have to support them.

Jones:You’d have to– to– you trust in my judgement. Another thing you’d have to trust my judgement about who I picked as leader.

Male:It’s sure absurd to think that a person who would– even– I can’t think of the worst that would say that uh– uh, that the reason why the person followed you because what they said about whatever you said– I can’t remember your exact words, ‘cause to me that’s asinine.

Marceline:And– and the other thing, not only would you be duty bound to follow the person, but it would be your responsibility to do everything you could to help that person succeed.

Male:And more than what you would do with– with him.

Marceline:Yeah. And that’s another thing uh– that I wanted to say while we stay here. We’ll– we’ll use– We’ll go back to Kenny as an example. Kenny, you’re going to start working. But we’re not gonna. We’re gonna do everything we can to help him be successful doing a good job. We’re going to show him how to work.

Male (Kenny?):(clears throat) Right.

Marceline:And we’re not going to stand up, and watch him sink or swim by himself. We’re going– if he’s willing to work, you know, you don’t– you’re not born knowing how to work, and sometimes I think when you haven’t been not– taught how to work, you would rather not try to do a job than to fail at it.


Marceline:Especially when you have people around you that know how. So it’s our responsibility to help this help him, then he can help someone else. (unintelligible)

Jones:I had to let go of him– I had uh– two (unintelligible)– you may grow and you may not. I also didn’t forget anything. I never remember anything against anybody. The only reason I do is to condition myself to make a point of reference. Point of reference. I told it to (unintelligible) PC. I said don’t ever let me forget the illustrations so that people can know they can be forgiven with Charlie– when– before he knew us, turned me into the FBI. I don’t personally remember that. I asked them to not let me forget that. There wasn’t no discussion about this, so don’t get paranoid, ‘cause I’m done (unintelligible word) our children’s life. There was no discussion. It was the fact that I couldn’t make any goddamned references. Somebody did mention it, but I said, don’t let me (claps hands once) forget that. Said why, here’s your example. Wasn’t a critical way. Said here’s an example. I’m trying to say I don’t forg– I don’t remember what– said he was (unintelligible) uh– I don’t know what all he’s been doing. I said what was it– (unintelligible) you remember? I said, don’t let me– I said I don’t remember things against people.

Male:You’ve used that before when arousing him, you– you said that– I can’t–

Jones:Well, I didn’t even remember Charlie then.


Jones:‘Cause somebody alluded to it. They said we will keep Charlie as a point of– of reference. I– I– I said that. They– they didn’t say that at all. They said, well, here’s an example. Poor Charlie came in, he turned you over to the FBI, uh, trying to keep his family from coming in, ‘cause he was threatened, he didn’t know what the hell it was all about. He hated socialism and all everybody in America’s been talking, is socialism, that’s a dirty word. And so uh– and I (unintelligible) he’s the head of the project.

Marceline:I think it’s an example of– you know, that there is hope.

Jones:Hope? I– I would say (unintelligible; Marceline talking over Jones)

Marceline:(unintelligible) love followers, and you know.

Jones:You got one of the most responsible posts.


Jones:Of something you can look at. And even though at one time he betrayed me before he knew me, in all fairness. But people who h– have betrayed me (unintelligible) and still have (unintelligible). I better not get into that. I need an illustration about him, ‘cause this was before he knew me (unintelligible word). There was no barrier to getting into (unintelligible). So you can change and I will forget it, even though I’ve got– now– uh, now Johnson’s sleeping, but I– I know that ninety percent– not only is he asleep (unintelligible word)– ninety percent of what I’m being said, what’s being said or some (unintelligible word) exchange, is not being heard. But I keep on talking, even if there’s just one– one hope in here that somebody will hear. Lot of people are talking but there’s no hope because that’s what’s right, you see, is to teach what’s right. But I don’t have any hope that you’re gonna change, I don’t have any hope about anybody changing. I just tell you what’s right. I’m not counting on you to change. I’m certain– I– if you change, I will forget this altogether. I’ll wipe it out, ‘cause there’s many in this room who don’t think that I don’t think (unintelligible) remember. The only reason I remember Charlie is because he said that’ll be a point to hurt you, so people will not be paranoid that you can always get ahead in this organization. But I’ll be goddamned if I can think of anything else, because the only reason I can remember that is because they told me to remember it, and we agreed. They didn’t tell me to remember, we agreed (unintelligible word) it, and I reinforced that son of a bitch in illustration a dozen times, you know, from the pulpit. Here’s an example when you’ve done wrong or you’re up here in catharsis, you don’t to have to, and I hope you don’t mind being used that one. Uh, though I’m sure he won’t. Uh, but here’s an example that if you– uh, when people really feel low about themselves, here’s an example. You don’t need to feel that there’s no hope for you because the man that’s the head of the foreign missionary for our hope for tomorrow, was a man who turned me over to the FBI. That gives a person (unintelligible) look up, you know, feel anything but to look up. ‘Cause they get so damned lonely, can’t see the bottom. That’s one of the mistakes I’ve made in the past (unintelligible) is uh– is that I have uh, I– I deal with everybody like me, I have no ego, so I think you ought just (unintelligible word) a shit about me and not have to be told to pray, ‘cause I can’t do it. So, I’ve used Charlie’s illustration I don’t know how many times. It’s easier to can use him, because he isn’t there. And some of the people, if I use them, they don’t know what (unintelligible word) the man.

Charlie Touchette:And I– I don’t mind it at all, because that’s exactly the same thing I said to Mickey [Touchette], that night in the parking lot. I made a very strong point of that. I remember, now that you mention it.

Jones:Well, I knew you didn’t mind it, and that’s why I use it in the first place and uh, there ought to be a good illustration to them, but other people here I know doubtedly– undoubtedly that they betrayed me, but I don’t– Charlie– Chuck Beikman– See, I– I’d forgotten that and looking straight in your ass and I didn’t– It’s not in your ass, but your face.


Woman:In our case, it’s hard to tell the difference.


Jones:Our ass and our face look somewhat alike, both of them– all of them. Uh– I don’t even know what the hell (unintelligible) was, but he ought to tell them– You tell them– I don’t remember. Honest to God, I don’t remember. But you tell them, because Kenny and those who– who are going through a process of being stolen by me need to know– I don’t mean now. I don’t mean now.


Jones:Tell them (unintelligible). Yeah, yeah, later. But he– he– how he betrayed me and then he can uh, know I trust him and put him in this position here. Put him in trust back home. Um, I don’t hold anything against him, and I don’t have any illusion. Most people wouldn’t teach you if they had as little– if they had as much cynicism as I have. I think most of what I do is wasted. What the hell’s (unintelligible word) right now? Pay for the goddamned bed? Shit, what’s the use of sleeping? You can sleep much longer when you die. You get a long rest when you die, so why don’t you just keep on pushing, ya know? How you– how many follow what I just said there? Tell– I can tell on your face you didn’t.


Jones:Why work so hard for an eight-hour sleep when you can get a permanent sleep?

Group:(Quiet chatter)

Jones:(unintelligible) No night– night– no nightmares or dreams.


Male:(unintelligible) all the times that I will be there forever and I never die. That– For myself, I know that like, whenever I was in the States, whenever I was, you know, since the beginning, whenever I first come into Peoples Temple, I know, before we moved to California, I think I did listen to your teachings– fairly reasonable, but I know once I moved to California, I started taking everything for granted and uh, like I did try to avoid a lot of meetings– good part of them whenever I was there, but then whenever I come here, uh, it’s kind of uh, you–

Jones:You ought to tape him on some of this. Uh– (unintelligible under microphone movement) – Uh, you might realize that they didn’t have any meetings, to me it was more appealing. I don’t mean right now, I think we’re kind of tired. You ought to make a tape of that shit about me– (unintelligible)


Jones:About how– how meetings became more important when you’re away from me.


Male:Yeah, ‘cause like– like whenever ther– there was just–

Jones:I want it loud and clear, so it can be transferred to another recording.

Male:And there was just a few of us that was down here the– the very first group that was down here, there wasn’t uh– there was just a few of us, and there wasn’t no really strong focal point of you as per se, like it is now. And uh, I know that I s– we– we did grasp the teachings but it was nothing–

Jones:You realize it is four o’clock in the morning. We’ve been talking all night, so if our voices sound tired, that’s why. Go ahead.

Male:And like we– we had grasped the– the– some of your teachings, but it was never the strong thing, and I know coming down here and being away from you for the number of months that we were away from you for the very first time, and then all of a sudden uh, we learned to appreciate you a little bit than what we did. And then like being away from you from December until now, it is– and then listen– being able to listen to you talk and do your teachings, you– you start to feel more of a– the thing– what– what you say we’re supposed to be or what we’re starting to be.

Jones:I have to go over this again and make it (unintelligible) about why you missed meetings and how much you missed them, ‘cause it’ll be psychologically safe for advancement. Uh, I– I can tell you the reasons why you– part– part of the reasons is because I love you. You’re very beautiful. Part of the reason is because absence makes the heart grow fonder.

Male:Yeah. Yeah.

Jones:Out of sight, out of mind, uh, you know, but when you have to live with somebody twenty four hours a day– uh, live with them every day, they become more of a bore. That’s why people like absentee God. It’s not that they haven’t got a sense of humor– that’s how they start walking down– some woman said that uh, (unintelligible word) she uh– oh, she sent her money in, I’ve forgotten who it was, whose daughter was it, and someone else said. She said, well, I’m sending my money, Mom. Rose Shelton, her daughter. Rose Shelton. No idea what (unintelligible). Hell, I (unintelligible) she still going strong. Said, Mom, by God, it was bad enough having God up there in the sky, and if that son of a bitch walking on earth– It’s just too much, seeing him over there. It’s too much.

Marceline: (laughs)

Jones:Well that– that’s the old superstition, but it was kind of cute. Uh, it just blows my mind ever to see God walking around here, knowing my thoughts and all that shit, said I can’t stand that. ‘Cause what it is really, is– if anybody’s around the (unintelligible), and I’m not around, so I (unintelligible). And when I’m dead, I will take a (unintelligible) and that shit be– then used for the next leader, ‘cause you’ll have learned a lesson. When you lose something that is good, then you should make it easier for the second leader.

Male:Well, hey, thanks. We would–

Jones:You all follow that?


Male:Yes, sir. If I were Johnson, (unintelligible)


Male:I think with what– I think, with what you just said, it’s pretty much, you know, not taking away from the fact of all the protection we have, but it’s more so the uh, of the principle that– that you teach us.

(Background conversation  unintelligible)

Jones:(unintelligible) Get along with them. Get along with them. Dug out. Couple of them dug out. They would be effective.


Jones:I really don’t– (unintelligible) then they got to walk over there, and he don’t have to sit there and–

Woman:I’ll go get it.

Woman 2:I don’t think he is. (unintelligible) Is this going on the tape?

Male:Um, yes.

Several females laugh

Woman:About Mike’s diarrhea, is it going on the tape?

Jones:As sick as it sounds, don’t forget to turn off the damned tape recorder.

Woman:(giggling) (unintelligible)

Jones:So I– I– I have to lose whatever it is, (unintelligible word), that’s what makes it our safe leader. I– I’m impressed that you say what you– I mean more to you. What means more to you is that I’m not so commonplace

Male:–and that’s really (unintelligible).

Jones:You’ve been practical about all this. If I had you around me all the time, first you’d say, Oh, man, I wish I could be Father. You would have (unintelligible) not that you’d be just like that. You’d be here, (unintelligible) not taking it for granted, (unintelligible) things like that. You’d not be able to (unintelligible)–

Male:I think so.


Male:I said I think so.

Jones:That’s honest. You wouldn’t have to worry to say that. I think that’s it, that it was right.

Charlie Touchette:I won’t– I won’t argue that point at all, but I know what I was in the States, you know, it was the same thing I think of reasons for being in a L.A. parking lot, working on a bus, you know, uh, and uh– but I know that if I were back up there, I’d sure give it hell for six months. I don’t think that’s exactly what you’re saying, but it’s true, because I would sure like to be up there and be able to participate. Even then–

Jones:Well, tomorrow why don’t you send the tape. We won’t put that part (unintelligible word)–

(unintelligible background conversation

Male:It’s all maintained.

Jones:Well, we– we– we want to retape that. I don’t want them to hear that in six months.

Male:Well, nah, I’m going to retape over it– this whole thing.

Jones:Well, Mike, I think that we all (unintelligible) that you’d go right up there and you’d be enthusiastic and glad to stay– stay for 12 hours. Our search is not long for you– that one thing might be comforting to you. But tape (unintelligible) not anything like you used to.


Male 2:No, they didn’t.

Jones:I– I’ve given up. If a person can’t learn in uh– in all the time I’ve been preaching, you might as well reduce it to half. I would say at least certainly, it could be cut in half.

Male:One offering.

Jones:One offering. ‘Cause that’d kill me and I’d (unintelligible) death to raise money over here and die. Offering’s a terrible (unintelligible), so I had to take one offering, and we didn’t have a final march– not at all. Now if they don’t have a march, I take a quickie. My offerings last about three minutes. Because uh– I couldn’t take– take it. It wasn’t that I minded the pain, I was having heart trouble. (Pause) Uh, and if I die, a lot of people that moment would say, oh, (short laugh) he’s not God any more. He wasn’t God. It’s like Marceline– Marceline’s had bad heart trouble, I’ve kept her alive years. But if she were to die, if she were to die, if Marceline were to die, some of the people would deny you were God right now. I said you had bad heart trouble for years, and I’ve kept you alive. And uh– but if she were to die, all those years I’ve kept her alive would not make any difference to some people. Now the fact that when she couldn’t walk, that wouldn’t have made any difference either. But I healed her. You follow– if you follow me.


Jones:The trouble is, you’ve got to make the effort to follow me, ‘cause I’m getting so unmo– I’m so unmotivated I won’t even make– I wouldn’t even push the foll– I used to jump on people. (unintelligible word) I won’t do it no more, you’re going to have to jump on me, I ain’t going to do it. I figure, by God, if you don’t want honesty, that’s your problem, but I– I can’t kill myself trying to shove honesty down someone’s throat. Like trying to get a horse to water. You can get him there, but you can’t make him drink. And some of you people, I don’t think I can get you to wake up. And you have to work on yourself or your neighbor’s going to have to work on you, but I am not going to fight that battle any more. You guys scream out there, “Wake up, goddamnit!” I don’t do that to you anymore. I don’t raise my voice very much anymore. If you haven’t noticed that– a lot of that is absen– absent. Raise voices? There’s good and there’s bad. ‘Cause I’m totally unmotivated. Totally responsible, but totally unmotivated. I’m going to stand my post till I die.

Male:I’m glad.

Jones:I do all I can to stand there. (unintelligible)

(male and female together) Uh-hmm.

Jones:I– I– I’m going to stand as long as I can. I try to take vitamins, I try to drink carefully. I wanted some more caffeine, but I thought I had too much for the heart (unintelligible word), so I didn’t take the coffee when it was offered to me. And I– I’m not careless with it. Try to keep my weight down when I get bigger than a goddamned barrel. I do all the things I can to think about health. But I’m unmotivated. Surely not motivated enough to say wake up. Let me. I said wake up in press conference several times, but uh, it’s not been (unintelligible word). I’m dead already. That’s the beautiful part, I have died. I’m crucified. That’s a (unintelligible word) to say. You know about being dead already. You don’t fight so hard. Before I was dead, I was crying out, “Don’t let me die! Give me some hope! Give me some hope!” So I’d scream out, “Wake up!” Well, I’m dead now. Uh, but I lay my body down in the Washington on the front steps or I lay it in a– an ammunition dump, or I lay it somewhere. Notice I didn’t say my enemies, ‘cause I’m– I– I’m going above self, I don’t lay my body down– you’re going to have to (unintelligible). I talk like I (unintelligible) but I wouldn’t waste my fucking time getting it, ‘cause I’ve got bigger– bigger fish to fry. I wouldn’t go across the street to get [Jim] Cobb. I can go across the street to visit– same– same difference. I could go get [Gerald] Ford. Ain’t no fucking little nobody, nothing like Cobb. You take care of Cobb and I’ll get Ford. You get what I’m saying.


Jones:And then they’ll take care of that. If you’re approaching– you’re approach to a general, you get that general to get Cobb. You see– You hear what I’m saying?

Male 1:Yeah.

Male 2:Uh-hmm.

Jones:They’ll be some of you be left and uh, get close enough to the generals, but you’ll get Cobb. If Cobb don’t get got (unintelligible) shit. You’ll die. Everybody dies. I ought– We oughta wish him a long life–

Male 2:Yeah, agony.

Jones:‘Cause (unintelligible) in a damn nursing home and then uh, how many more– how many more hours you live– What was that? (Stumbles over words) One thing you said tonight, and I didn’t say so (unintelligible).

Woman:Uh, how long do you think I can last (unintelligible).

Jones:Oh, that was it. Don’t call me if they die. Been married for fifty years. Don’t call– if they die and you– don’t wake me up.


Jones:That blows my fucking mind, that just blows my mind. People like mom and dad been married for years, and she’d say, don’t call me. If they die–

Woman:Don’t– don’t wake me up.

Jones:And they tell her that all the time. She’s in charge of all the hospitals and nursing homes, and they tell her that all of the goddamned time. She’ll read it on their charts too, they will tell her. She’s reading it there, ‘cause she has to study everyone’s charts and that’s (unintelligible) but can you imagine having– anybody having the damned nerve?

Marceline:I wanted to tell you something about that–

Jones:But why don’t we get the scrubs? I want to– you have to go across that– I’m the teacher here (unintelligible). You– You got– you got to– It’s very difficult to imagine what I’m saying, because you can apply that to everybody but yourself. Everybody thinks everybody else is going to die, but you don’t think you’re dying. If you look in the goddammed mirror, you know you’re dying.

Woman:I just wanted to be– (unintelligible).

Woman 2:(laughing)

Jones:For most people– You going to die? She’s going to die? You’re going to die too.

Male:I hope so.

Jones:Well, you do, and that’s just honest socialism. But some people don’t. They don’t ever identify there. They become (unintelligible word). They never identify with dying. They think always going to get better for them. You can’t trust a fucker like that, ‘cause he’ll fuck up the revolution, and (unintelligible) look bad.


Jones:A little trouble come, and he’s gone. Like Arnold. Narcissism. Number one– always knew he was that way, that’s why I wouldn’t trust him when certain responsible things that– one– his own dad [Jack Beam] wanted to get him. Said I ain’t gone do it, ‘cause I didn’t trust him. Little bit of trouble’s hitting America, fucker wants to hide. Somebody wants to die, he’s– he’s niggerized. You don’t worry about that son of a bitch. He ain’t going to run. Marvin Johnson wants to save his ass when people close to you? Not so.

Male:He’s the first ones to say, “let’s go get them”.

Several voices:(generally unintelligible conversation saying Jim Cobb was a yellow belly, the loudest voice in  the room)

Male 2:Loudest one in the meeting.

Jones:You can’t fi– uh, you can’t believe anything you hear, it’s actions that speak. People can just put on the biggest damn show you ever did see in your life. And that’s the good part, they’ve earned a good lesson, to be (unintelligible word). But uh, now I’m– I’m finished with the– Identify with that. If that– Marceline sees that a thousand times. ‘Cause people who are rich, people whose husbands have made them good money, people whose wives have given them a big fortune, but no more goddamned love out there in capitalism, and even some of them that are supposed to be socialist, as you’ve seen, not to name any names, but saying, don’t wake me up if he dies at three o’clock in the morning. Wait until nine o’clock. That’s shit.

Marceline:I remember one–

Jones:That’s life.

Marceline:One (unintelligible)– I went in and set with the person, and when they died, she said (unintelligible word) wanted to be alone, and the family said, don’t wait.

Male:Isn’t that terrible?

Marceline:So what I wanted to say to you is that uh, when I go into these hospitals, it’s ironic, and I give credit to uh, my father [Walter Baldwin]. Actually, I was in about ten percent of the records. And I’ll go into the hospital when they have a hundred patients, and I’ll pick out every problem chart they’ve got. Just at random. And they’ll– look– I’ve (unintelligible). I’ve gone in and found lab reports, or– or doctor’s orders that were written, even though they were– uh, what is (unintelligible) one of the hospitals in Eureka, where they had 99 patients, and I picked out each heart, where a doctor uh, order for a uh, consultation by a neurologist was written three weeks ago, and not followed through. But– but– but what I was saying–

Jones:Rather die on a table–

Marceline:– is this random pick is phenomenal. And I know it because of him.

Prokes:That’s true. She doesn’t have the time to go through all of them, so she has to pick them at random just to– as a check.

Jones:(unintelligible), because the state don’t care that much. They put so much on her, she has to take– so she has to use my mind, my supernatural or paranormal– she has to focus on me, think on me, so she can take the right chart to find everything that they’re neglecting.

Marceline:–to find the problem. But if I go into a– a place (unintelligible)– if I see it, someone (unintelligible). That’s no problem, ‘cause I’ll find out what their names are, and I’ll look at every record.

Jones:But all the white, she can’t take, and all the white getting most the same damn thing, but there’s just something worse than others, like an operation that can save them from pain (unintelligible) uh, it’s a medication can relieve their pain. And she has had to call on me or to let me guide her, and she said, she’ll find the very charts and that’s phenomenal. Again we want to do that we’d get ourselves off into metaphysics, and that’s counter-revolutionary. You dwell too much in (claps hands once) metaphysics, you’re a counter-revolutionary. You should (claps hands once) call on that name for himself (unintelligible word). If you’re out there dying, if you want to save your own ass, don’t call, if you’re a true socialist. But if you know (claps hands once) I need to write D.C. or attract a call. You get what I’m saying? I’d want you to live, and I beg you for yourself to call, uh, if you want to live. But if you wanted to die, I– I love you so much, I don’t want you to let you die. If you follow me. But that’s uh– that– some people– you can’t get it unless your conscience is dead. I don’t want to go to there, ‘cause I’m either too enlightened or (unintelligible) won’t call and I’ll have to get somebody else to driving me too.


Male:It’s the times that they– it happened otherwise you going to get (unintelligible).

Woman:(unintelligible) place to live, you owe us.


Jones:You owe it to socialism to call on me. That’s the whole thing. But don’t be calling on me, ‘cause you want to save your ass.

Background conversation unintelligible

Prokes:Should be after all means are exhausted.

Jones:I project and I don’t know enough about paranormal uh, and all the intricacies. I know a lot about paranormal– I want to be fair and corrected on that, but I don’t all how I do it but I meditate about you. And faces come before me dozens and dozens of times. I could say hundreds of times, but I (unintelligible).

Prokes:Hmm, no doubt.

Jones:So, uh, but I uh– I know dozens and dozens of people say, plus on top of that I assure myself that those (unintelligible) are so damned hard working that they’re afraid they’re going to miss something. (unintelligible phrase). You realize it’s nothing but a miracle that in a– in a jungle, where you didn’t know a fucking thing about a jungle, that all kinds of a– acts of nature that can happen, all kinds of uh, animals that can do you in or snakes, all kinds of accidents and hazards, ‘cause you don’t know what you’re doing. You people. I don’t mean that though (unintelligible) don’t take that wrong, and you know a hell of a lot (unintelligible word), but didn’t when you started. The fact that you have not been killed is– you have in me and I know that. But that puts a weight on me, that I wished I never existed, ‘cause I’m afraid I’ll miss it sometimes. I’m bound to miss it sometimes. That’s why you need to be careful. (unintelligible word) said the other night to Ar– uh, to uh, Archie [Ijames], who was driving and he was driving real fast. And I said, Archie, you’re been me, you’re testing me, I said, don’t do that. Then if you going to be driving rapidly or carelessly, you’re testing me. Don’t do that. Uh, ‘cause it– I’ve got enough tests. Enough from these people (unintelligible) and from about you (unintelligible) I can tell.


Jones:Don’t go ripping through the jungle without your proper boots. Uh– Take every precaution. Okay? Don’t be messing with (unintelligible) industrial equipment without all the safety uh, measures taken you could possibly (unintelligible). Don’t be fooling around in the kitchen with uh, gases or hot liquids without being careful. That’s unfair to Father. It’s unfair to socialist.

Woman:That’s right.

Marceline:If you are (unintelligible)– if it’s one of those days when you feel depressed, that’s when you’re very careful. The day– on the days that I go out on the road and I have a temptation to get (unintelligible) to get over the line when I see a semi coming, that’s when I am very careful.

Jones:That’s why I’m so very careful not to drive. You notice that Father does very little driving (unintelligible) to get on buses. (unintelligible) I get a lot of work. Physical work and I do mental work and I do very little driving if I can avoid it because I’m too suicidal. And a car is a very good way to be dead.

Marceline:Some days we’re more alert than others too, like tomorrow after you’re up this late, I would hope that none of you will be doing anything that’s too dangerous (unintelligible).

Jones:I– I would recommend not. I recommend you use a slower pace while I’m (unintelligible) because you’ve got to be sharp when you (unintelligible).

Marceline:(unintelligible) machinery and that kind of thing.

Jones:‘Cause I would just be– they say why don’t you have (unintelligible)– anything you can think would fix me up. If the brother’s lost his arm. I love you and try to talk it up to you, but I’m trying to save you from hurting yourself and hurting these people uh, uh, I just–  I can’t take much more pain. I have to see that much pain is that uh, there ain’t no pain to kill. If you give me these pain pills, that’s giving me relief. So, I don’t need no (unintelligible word) from that standpoint, ‘cause I– I worry about you so, particularly if you’re crippled with God.

Marceline:There’s one thing I’m going to have to do tomorrow and that’s get that medication sorted out, and I’m going to have be somewhat alert, or I’ll worry about you taking the wrong things for the wrong thing.

Jones:Well, you ought to go on.

Male:You should go.

Marceline:So I think I should get some rest, ‘cause tomorrow’s my last day I can get that organized.

Jones:How about finishing uh, yours to do– you’ve got– you had to lay all that foundation for socialism (unintelligible).


Jones:You know more about it and you don’t need to know this.

Marceline:I have to remember what those medications–

Jones:There’re contradictions that can be resolved (unintelligible). If you can call him by radio, then we can make contact tomorrow because it’s going on–


End of tape