Q949 Transcript

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Male 1: (clears throat) You have to be inside the auditorium by 7. (pause) The meetings are not at 7:30, they’re at 7 pm. Tuesday night meetings. (Long pause) Okay. (hushed tones) Go ahead, make your announcement.

Female 1: Okay. Some general comments. If you need telephone numbers, please try information before you call any of our members, that uh– Probably 80, 90 percent of the telephone numbers, even when people move, arelisted with the operator. And their time is not as valuable as our time. Sometimes–

Voice in congregation: (too soft)

Female 1: –To your house?

Voice in congregation: (too soft)

Jones: They call our home for telephone numbers.

Male 1: That’s absurd. Uh– Anyone– Uh– Well, who here has called– called the parsonage uh, for a number?

Female 1: They called the Temple.

Male 1: There was at least– call received, Marceline [Jones] received a call yesterday. Who was this? And they wanted the number for the Friendship – what is it? – Fellowship House, for the Fellowship House. (Pause) Who was that? (Pause) There is to be no one, absolutely no one calling that parsonage. (Pause) I’m talk– I– I– I know– I’m talking about there should– there shouldn’t be no one calling the parsonage trying to find out a number. That’s not a uh– an information center. You can’t call in there to, you know, to check in and find out who you want to see or find out someone’s number.

Female 1: There are so many calls–

Male 1: There are over 300, 400 calls there a day, and they cannot be expected to answer the phone every second, and especially for something as nonsensical as an information for another number. (Pause) From now on, you should call in– either information, which is 411, or call someone on this council, if you’re having difficulty finding someone’s number. (Pause) Now, is anyone here still smoking or drinking, and if you are (out of mic) that’s two points. I don’t know. (Pause) I will hold off–

Several voices away from microphone

Male 1: Uh– This is a reminder, we are having a Los Angeles meeting this weekend, and everyone is to go. The only (tape edit) and if any excuse is about not having the carfare to go that is– that isn’t a problem. And everyone that misses will be brought up on this floor and dealt with pretty severely, because this has been– this has been gone over time and time again. (Pause) Even if you’re working, let’s say on Friday night and we leave Friday night, we expect you to arrange for a car pool. (Pause) Is that understood? Everyone should be in this coming meeting– this coming meeting this weekend, in the Los Angeles meeting. Does anyone from the buses here know what time we’re leaving Friday night? (pause) Six o’clock we’ll be leaving? (pause) Well, you should be out here between 6 and 6:30, I’d say, to board the buses, so we can get on our way to Los Angeles. (pause) Okay. Thank you. (pause) It has been brought to the council’s attention that Bunny Talley went to Los Angeles as a hostess. I saw her in the back, I see her right there. Bunny Talley went to Los Angeles as a hostess and did not report to work at Hacienda. (pause) Could you come up front please? (pause) And while she’s coming forward, no one is ever to miss work unless you are– well, almost deathly ill and have a– have a very high fever. Even that doesn’t really count, because you can usually get out of bed, you know, for something you want to do. And work is an extremely, you know, part of contr– contributing to this– to our major work here, you know. It’s true– It’s– it’s very, very important for all of us to maintain good work records, good attendance at jobs and good job performance, if we ever want to relocate elsewhere. So we expect everyone to be on the ball at jobs and attend. Now Bunny, what– what about this?

Bunny: I che– I checked with Lois before I went, and I had sick time coming uh, from work to me. And this is what I took. I took my sick time which I do get paid for, for taking. And I had to have this taken out by – this is August – by September when I started. And I talked to Lois today, and she didn’t say anything about there being any trouble at work. I took it on sick leave. I have a notice from my doctor to go back to work on. But I went down Friday night uh, as a hostess and was cleared to do so, and then I went uh, when the buses went back. And the only reason I wentback was because Sylvia [Grubbs] said she was– did need uh, hostesses.

Male 1: Okay– Okay, who– who– who– who has made this– this complaint?

Female 2: I was, because we was– they was short two girls, and uh, uh, Mary Wotherspoon said that uh, Saturday night that– Mary said that she didn’t think she’d go to work the next day, and I didn’t know that she had cleared it with Lois– Lois.

Several voices away from microphone

Jones: Well, then let’s go– let’s go through Lois. It’s all right. I appreciate your surveillance uh, but let’s go through Lois before we get this thing on the floor. Uh, we do have these emergencies where– where we’re extended and uh, bus crews have no alternatives. They just have no resource to withdraw– to draw from. So let us check out uh, with her before we get a matter on the floor. Uh– Check with the– with the person that’s uh, the head. I might say that Marceline in her uh, contact today with some impor– important officials, she has an ex officio uh, pretty important position given to her today and not any defined hours, but uh, a position that can be of some immense resource to the– to the family. She uh, got some glowing reports on Hacienda’s improvement at the state level, so that’s good to know. That’s the state level, that she got this, so keep it– keep it up.

Several voices away from microphone

Male 1: Is John Biddulph here?

Several voices away from microphone

Male 1: Is Louise Shaeffer here?

Voice in Crowd: Yes, she is.

Louise: Yes, Father.

Male 1: Okay–

Male 2: No, no, John Biddulph.

Male 1: Is John Biddulph here? Is he outside in the grounds anywhere? Has anyone seen him?

Female 3: Uh– He told me last night that he– (unintelligible word) I think they were (unintelligible word), and he would probably have to work late. Because I was going to put him a rest home, but he told me he’d probably have to work late because of this.

Several voices away from microphone

Male 1: Oh. Yeah, right. Uh, Herman. (clears throat) The other night uh, John asked you to uh, help him work, you know, clean up– clean up in the church. I think it was uh, Saturday night, and uh, then you went into the building and sat down at a table while the rest of the guys cleaned and uh, ate a piece of pie. (Pause) Is this– is this true? This complaint? Herman? Is this true? Come– Come on forward, Herman.

Long pause

Male 1: Okay. Okay. (Pause) What I said was John Biddulph asked you Saturday evening, I– I think it was Saturday evening, to help clean in the– in the, you know, do some maintenance here. And you went out, and got yourself a piece of pie from one of the concession stands, came back and sat down at a table, ate, uh, you know, right while they were working. You know, instead of giving them a hand, you sat down and ate a piece of pie. Is this what happened?

Herman: Yeah. I told them I had to take some people home too.

Male 1: Yeah, why didn’t you go about doing that then, instead of coming in, sitting down, eating a piece of pie after the brother asked you to give him a hand?

Herman: Because they were ready to go in a few minutes.

Male 1: Say what? (Pause) I didn’t hear you.

Herman: I said they were ready to go in a little while in a few minutes.

Male 1: Then you– you could have– you could have helped them for that few minutes that you were waiting for those folks to get ready or whatever they were doing. If they were getting their luggage off the buses or something. You could’ve, you know, lent– lent them a hand. That’s all they asked you was for a hand, ‘cause he was– he was short-staffed Saturday.

Jones: When was this? When was this occurrence?

Male 1: Saturday– Saturday evening after our meeting.

Jones: Brother, I want to tell you, bluntly. When you put the whole arm of the church out– (Pause) All the– all the praise, and all the dancing, and all the– the shouting, all the tears in the world, and I saw you crying last Saturday about gratitude over getting out of a mess. But all of that means nothing to me whatsoever, when we’re still in that mess and we’ve got to fight that mess through, and we’re gonna fight it through as your family. And John Biddulph, one of my structural people, most important people here to get– help me with the burden of maintenance, and you start this thing just hours out of your (stumbles over words) having some difficulty. It makes me wonder, because if it wasn’t for your family right now, you’d be– you’d be in a real spot, and you know it. And it’s the– The only thing you got working for you is that the family, the legal counselors here, and then hours after a thing– hours after– I’m not just speaking to you, Herman, I’m speaking to people in general. There ought to be a vote, a spirit of gratitude that uh, would prevail, last longer than just one moment. But you sit down and eat a piece of pie. You coulda also helped him for that moment while you were waiting on those people. John Biddulph’s overworked.

Male 1: That’s right. And it’s really difficult. I mean, you know, he– he stays here and slaves until, you know, 3, 4, or 5 o’clock sometimes, you know, and it’s just he and maybe, you know, uh, one or two other brothers, Phil– Phil Blakey, and maybe one other brother that they can barely, you know, get to– to give him a hand.

Jones: He’ll never leave. He never leaves unless I– I dismiss him. He’ll sle– sleep in a chair, and he was doing it 4 or 5 o’clock the other morning, and it’s morning after morning after morning. And of course everyone’s had their share of difficulty. He has had his, but for months, he’s created no problems, well over a year. He’s created no problem and he– he’s shown a redemptiveness for his problem. And all he did was uh– was uh, something that hurt himself, but what you did, man, was something else. Uh– Even though it was hysteria, but when you took off like that in that car, uh, that was my hesitancy for you to get the car in the first place. Someone had not driven in so long. So you get a car and you go out and you no more get in it, and you run over fences and cars and toys, and you coulda killed somebody, and then you leave the scene. Well, I don’t know what you know about law, but that’s a serious business when you leave the scene. (Pause) Uh– Well, we’re not going to discuss that, I guess, but that isn’t the proper thing, and probably you didn’t really leave the scene, but in your mind uh, it was irresponsibility. And your behavior, irresponsibility.

Male 1: Uh, it seems– seems as though this pattern is carrying through, uh, in– in your– in your work.

Female 4: Uh, Herman, uh, at the hospital Sunday night, this uh, Mexican man named Frank Bean, that is working at the county hospital with you brought his daughter in, and uh, he said to one of the nurses there at General Hospital, he says there’s a colored man at the county hospital, and he’s the most lazy man I ever met in my life. He spends three and a half hours in a row watching a ball game without stopping. He watched the ball game from 10:30 in– this morning until 1:30 this afternoon. He goes into a back room and he listens to the radio. He– He never does anything. He– He spot cleans, he spot sweeps. And he says I’d really like to see him get fired, and uh–

Jones: Who said that?

Female 4: This Frank Bean, that is a janitor now at uh, Mendocino Hosp– at uh, County Hospital with Herman. He says that Herman watches TV for three hours out– of the ball game without stopping.

Jones: Do you watch the ballgame?

Herman: On my lunch hour.

Jones: Where are you– where are you in consciousness? You’re interested in ball games here? (Pause)

Male 1: Brother, do you understand—

Jones: I– I– I– I– you– I like to be like a (unintelligible word), a loving father, and the easier I am, the more of this I put up with.

Female 4: Uh– Herman uh–

Jones: Shhh! I want– I don’t want to have that exposed and pulled out inch by inch. Is this true, Herman, or is it not true?

Herman: (Pause) Yes, it’s true.

Jones: Why did you lie to me?

Herman: But I do do my work, he was wrong about that.

Male 1: He asked whether– why did you lie to him?

Jones: ‘Cause the lunch hour is not the only time you’ve ever done it. You knew you were lying to me, and I know it immediately, and I’m tired of letting you people get by with this lying because I’m just simply uh, not interested in going into each of these little things and dig, dig, dig, but I know immediately when somebody lies to me. I may lookat you and just look at you straight and let you lie, or I may do just like I did then and say I’m getting tired. You lie very nicely. You lie just very straightforwardly, um-um-um, you shook your head like you had been attacked unrighteously and unfairly. (Pause) (unintelligible word)

Female 4: Herman has even gone to the San Francisco Bay Area to ball games there to the Giant– Giant games, I believe it is, uh, on the weekend and paid money to go.

Herman: (too soft)

Female 4: You have too, and you came back and slept in my car and– and went to work from my car. You did too. Don’t lie again.

Jones: (short laugh)

Council Female: Herman, have you paid money to go see the Giants play?

Herman: Yes, but I never went on no–

Council Female: Why don’t– It doesn’t matter whether you went on the weekend or any other time. Did you go? That is the important thing. You’re skirting around the issue again. (Pause)

Male 1: If you smoke a cigarette, it doesn’t matter what road you smoked it on.

Jones: (upset) Oh, well, this isn’t– this is not necessary. You don’t have to teach Herman ethics, or if you do, we’ve certainly uh, been wasting our time. You know that uh, whether it’s a weekend or whether uh, not, we talked about the capitalism of– of ball games. The exploitation of blacks by sports clubs, the miserable revelations. I spent two or three sermons straight talking about the revelations of a former ball player, how they give them hypodermics that kill them to get more energy out of them, make them muscular, but it finally kills them or makes them addicts. And they’re all involved in these barbarous misuse of– by uh, the– these organizations. And the homosexuality that was– uh, sadism, sadistic homosexuality encouraged by coach– coaches. We all went in this. You were– If you– you– course, may not have heard it.

Herman: I don’t know.

Jones: Some of you people don’t hear anything that goes on in here. (Pause) You set here, but you don’t hear it.

Female 4: And also you’re chewing gum.

Female 5: Excuse me, could we have everyone please listening when Father’s talking and not reading a newspaper.

Jones: Who’s reading a newspaper?

Female 5: Bernie.

Jones: Who’s reading a newspaper?

Female 5: Ber– Uncle Bernie was sitting there looking at the Sun Reporter.

Jones: (Sighs) Now you see, you don’t like discipline. we don’t like rules, don’t like council. And people say the council’s too ag– aggravating, because I’m the Father, and I tend to love my children too much to indulgence. You’ve gotta have a tough council. Council has to take an unloving role. That’s what it seems to be it, really is a loving role.

Several voices away from microphone

Jones: Somebody gonna have to go. Somebody gonna have to take a walk.

Male 1: I think so.

Jones: This place is getting in danger, because everyone thinks that you can get by. I look out here and I see from every meeting the issues I talk about in the meeting before facing me, the same issues facing me the next meeting. (Pause) Because I think maybe you think that uh, we won’t separate from you. (Pause) Well, you’re not too high that we won’t separate from you. You better listen closely. I’m not– I wasn’t at that council last night too, but there were lies told that council. Lies. Not facing reality, trying to shift the gears, pushing the responsibility onto somebody else. (Pause) So I had to become fully aware of what went on at that council last night. I’m– I don’t like to give people, a council of power to throw somebody out when I’m not present, but (Pause) I’m inclined to think I shall. (Pause) If they make a bad decision, it can’t be as bad as what we’re into here.

Male 1: That’s right.

Jones: Because if you don’t get the message in working with us, when I put the whole machinery of this church at your expense, and run our attorneys right in for you and willing to risk our whole reputation, when I would never dream of leaving a scene of an accident. They’d have to drag me away from the scene of an accident. But you did this, and we went along with this and uh, support you because you’re one of our brothers. (pause) Nothing can be quoted from this room, can’t even discuss things w– with any sense anymore, because it’s not good sense to discuss this type of thing. Then we deny anything that’s been said in the room anyway, we’ll stand by each other. We’re like the Jews, we’ll stand by each other.

Male 2: That’s right.

Jones: Got nobody else to stand by.

Male 2: Yes.

Jones: Anybody goes out and say he left the scene, I’d say you’re a liar, because I’ll support the family.

Several voices of affirmation

Jones: Tell he’s never done it before. That’s not the issue. You’ve never done it before, but it just– In days, a matter of days, and then we have a thing like this come up on you right after. I– I– I– If– if I had a family had fought for me when I was alone, and I spent a good part of my life alone, I would’ve been eternally grateful to that family, and I’da done anything I could to keep that family together. Some of you seem to do everything you can to tear that family up. Tear it up. I don’t think you intentionally do it, but it’s– whether it’s intentions or not, it amounts to the same thing. What do you have to say?

Female 6: Uh, I’ve seen Herman moving around through the halls. He does move awful slowly, and the whole hospital is against him. I mean all that I’ve heard talk, and when we– uh, when I came back from vacation, I told him that I went– took a plane and went to Ohio to visit my grandchildren, so as soon as I walk in after being gone two weeks, the head nurse on Acute says, well, did you enjoy your trip to Mexico and Canada? And I said, what do you mean? She said, well, didn’t you go with Herman and the church? And I said, I don’t know anything about it. I said, I went to Ohio on the airplane. And I approached Herman and I– I asked Herman before we went on the trip not to tell anybody where we were going.

Jones: Did you, Herman?

Herman: Yes.

Female 6: And he told one person in depth.

Jones: Did you?

Herman: Yes.

Jones: Herman? (Pause) What do you have to say, Zippy [Zipporah Edwards]?

Zippy: Uh, what I want to say, you see, I’ve been uh, telling him about these ball games a long, long time.

Jones: I asked– I asked her– I sent it to her.

Female 7: He said, Vivian, I’m busy.

Jones: I was about to make a decision, (unintelligible name, could be Harriet or Harry), and you– you missed it all. You missed it. I– I about made a decision, but I wanted to hear from her first.

Zippy: Well I said, you know, that Jim– what Jim thinks about these ball games. I said you should quit going to the ball games. And then again when he got this car, I wanted to tell him, don’t go in unfamiliar places at night, since you just learned how to drive in the dark, and– and I wouldn’t tell him because I know his head is hard, listen to nothing you say. I wanted to tell him when he got the car, but he would not listen to anything you say to the man. And I’ve been asking for a long time about going to these ball games, and by talking too much on top of that.

Female 7: Uh, and just uh, Saturday or Sunday Herman took off at 1:30 and uh, Jan Wilsey’s mother told me that they were talking in the dining room about him and said that Herman’s going to get fired.

Jones: Well, she’s an Indian, so she’s not against you.

Female 7: No, she’s for him.

Jones: Umm-hmm [Yes].

Female 7: And she holds–

Jones: Does she (unintelligible word)– There seems to be some number of Caucasians involved, but that’s your– that’s your–

Female 7: She also–

Jones: –blood relative there standing. She’s black, so there’s been an equal number here of all races represented with a very, very bad story here.

Female 7: I didn’t– I didn’t hear what they said, but she said that they said he’s taking too much time off and that he told them he had to go to the International Airport and he had to leave at 1:30, and the janitor–

Jones: The International Airport?

Female 7: And the janitor and the housekeeping department, which he’s a part of, were all sitting in there, three or four of them discussing being fired. And also he’s been playing games with those women too, Herman. You’ve been uh, flirting around with some gal from uh, Los Angeles, and one of the girls here, and then you tried to get me to go with you in your car the other day. And I thought it was friendship. When I realized that you– you were flirting around with me, you said, You’d rather have me than anybody. I didn’t want to go with you at all. (Pause) Well, I think if Archie Ijames were here, he could verify that you did. And you’re lying again.

Jones: What’s that?

Female 7: He says he didn’t try to get me to go with him. He wanted me to go with him in his car, and he’s lying. Again.

Male 1: What’s that about, man? What’s that about? You were taking her where? What had you intended to do?

Jones: I can’t answer this kind of stuff, I don’t –

Male 1: Okay. Well, there– there’ve been some very, very serious charges made here, Herman. Very serious indeed.

Jones: Get– Uh, Grace [Stoen], read this and go get uh, AJ [Archie Ijames]. Okay.

Male 1: Have you anything to say for yourself at this time?

Herman: Yes, I’m sorry and uh, it won’t happen again.

Jones: No, I– I can assure you it won’t happen again. (Pause) (more emphatic) I can assure you it won’t happen again. None of this mess is going to happen again. (Long pause) You’d better be laying some plans as to where you would move if you are released from this church, because if you deviate the slightest, Herman, you’re going.

Voice in Crowd: That’s right.

Jones: I won’t even act on it.

Voice in Crowd: That’s right, Herman.

Jones: Now my word’s out there. They’re– They’re going to do it.

Voice in Crowd: That’s right, they will.

Voice in Crowd: That’s it, man.

Voice in Crowd: (too soft)

Jones: Oh, I know about his temper. I know that. Uh, man, I expect you to cooperate with me. I’ve never been arrested. I’ve never been involved in anything illegal, and I give my life purely for socialism, and I want to keep my record clean. I don’t like (voice rises) people running around violating every kind of rule, then violating laws for their own ego. The only law I believe in breaking is what Martin Luther King said, a bad law. A bad law doesn’t mean to misbehave on a road with an automobile. Those are good laws, they only be– only– only ought to be tighter and harder than they are. Then we have your work habits. Those are good laws. We can show people we’re good integrationist, that we’re good socialist by how we work. You violated that. Your temper and your– your interplay, your sex play. There’s nothing so threatening than a– than a man who appears moderately uh, dressed or moderately handsome, being black and large, flirting around on a job. You’re messing us up there, ‘cause evidently you had no need for women on– in– in marriage all your life. You’ve got along very beautifully without women. Do you have the same problem as the other brothers have? (Pause) Hmmm?

Herman: Yes.

Jones: What is that problem?

Herman: Homosexuality.

Jones: All right. Now what– what are we– what are we– uh, what are you risking so much. (pause) (Clears throat)

Male 1: Wh– wh– what are– what are you now involved in here, you know, project wise?

Herman: Service uh, Committee.

Male 1: What else? And how many hours– Well, how many hours do you spend with the Service Committee working on (unintelligible word) thing?

Herman: Well, I– I just started.

Male 1: You just started.

Herman: Yeah.

Male 1: What else are you involved in, Herman?

Herman: Well, Security.

Male 1: Umm-mmm.

Jones: You used to come down here, and uh, help so much with maintenance, and I– I’m looking back to that time. I’m– I’m fair. If anything too fair. I’m– I’m letting– I’m riding on the years that we’ve known each other. I rode on the years that I’ve known each other with a couple of other people this week. And I’m getting kind of weary puttin’ out anything but the truth, (Pause) so, as I said, no matter how much it breaks my heart to do so, at the next hearing, I won’t be present. I will step down from this office, and they will be this office. And I think you need to know that they know I’m loving, but they think that in some instances, I’m a little too soft. So uh, you face them. Not me. Now, I’ve put it in the record and that’s it. So, brother, keep your nose clean. They’re going to write this down, so that’s my word. I will not be able to intervene. Do you realize what that means? You better improve your job, you better lay off wasting our money on racist sports–

Male 1: Amen.

Jones: And better find some– if you want some companionship– If there’s any need in you at all, then you find it within this group. You don’t find it outside.

Male 1: Why don’t you get a dog from Penny [Kerns], if you want some companionship. She has a lot of little puppies that need taking care of. Why don’t you get a– you know, get an animal to take of, if you’re looking for companionship. It would be a lot more wholesome, and a lot more real.

Jones: Whatever. You better not play any kind of sex games here to get us in any trouble. I’ve had enough trouble, ‘cause I’m saving myself to fight injustice, and I don’t want to get drug in by these silly violations of good laws. I’d better get through everybody’s head here. I will go down fighting against an unjust law, but it is just that you give an honest day’s work for your pay. If you don’t like it, quit, or go through channels and protest it. But don’t slovenly uh, fail to do your work.

Female 8: –and to try to telling three lies here to Father. I asked you– Uh, when I first got up here to swallow your chewing gum, and you didn’t, and uh, I’m quite sure that the children don’t appreciate it.

Jones: What are you doing chewing gum, in here?

(Conversation away from mike)

Jones: All right, go ahead. Let him talk about something else. Go ahead. Whatever you have to say to him.

Male 1: Uh– I think you should (unintelligible word). (stumbles over words) Jim, what is your schedule? Do you have a constant schedule? Do you have days? Is that it?

Jim: [editor’s note: not Jim Jones] Yes.

Male 1: Okay, fine. You will only use your cars– your car to go to and from work. Unless you are especially called on uh, I want you– I want Zippy– Zippy, where are you, here?

Jones: I want you to do this for me. ‘Cause I’m– I’m greatly questioning whether– uh, how– how much you know me and could be where you are. All the years we’ve been around or at least in contact with each other. (Pause) I want you to come down here and uh, you check water. People been leaving water. I want you to do this every day, see that there’s not water faucets running. I’d like you to go through and see that the animals are well fed, because I’m having to do some of this. Now be– On some important issues. I want you to see that these animals are getting well fed and your– Stephan [likely Stephan Jones]? Where is Stephan? And where’s Stephan? And the uh– Tim and Jim, you uh, talk with him his schedule. I’d like a place, I’d like you to keep their cages clean uh, little extra, ‘cause school’s gonna come and I want these children to do it, but I want you to follow up on them. Will you do that?

Male: Yes.

Jones: Every day I’m going to count on you. See that we’re water– we lose no more water here. People been going around here turning the water on, had it over the side of the– had a hose over the side of the uh– the riverbed. There was a whole stream running down of our precious water, and this is the driest season we’ve ever had. So you got to redeem yourself now, man, some way and the brother’s quite right. Your time– time can become a great enemy to you, unless you are fully socialist, and most of the people here don’t know socialism. And if you’re full of that, it’ll keep you straight when nothing else will keep you straight.

Voice in Crowd: That’s right.

Jones: Your conscience socialism is God. God is socialism, and I am principle socialism and that’s what makes me God, but socialism is more than just any personal form. The deity of socialism is uh, impersonal and ever-present, and some of you’ve seen me too much after the flesh. You (unintelligible word)– You’ve seen me after the flesh. You uh– I can look right at you, you lie to me. You look right square in my face, and you’ve seen me call off the people, tell them their thoughts of their mind, and you’ll look right square at me and lie, and do it convincingly. And I have time and time again to have people up like you, when they be stoutly denying, swear on everything sacred, it wasn’t true, and I’d show you that they were liars, and you people still keep up– keep doing the same thing that they’ve done.

You’re going to break down all discipline, unless I use every bit of my energy to watch for liars or to deal with every liar that I’m dealing with, and you can be a liar indirectly or directly. Some of you stage things in– to defend yourself in Council Meetings here or in Monday night meetings. You stage set-ups to make yourself look good. Whatever it is, it’s still a form of treason, and I’m afraid of it. I’m getting so terrified of it, that I don’t even feel close to some people I ought to feel. People who put me in a bad light or attempt to, consciously or unconsciously, rather than to admit the one thing that has been said, and I repeat, and no one can be more honest than this with you. I have never done anything with any of you, whatever it was, at any time, that it was not to bring you to some growth. (Speaks slowly) I never take advantage of any human being, never have made any human being do anything. So don’t pose any kind of situations like that, because it makes me feel vo– grossly uncomfortable. Maybe at the time I can’t tell you what I’m doing, but it’s a testimony to your strength that I work with you.

I bring out things in your mind, let you see yourself, expose things about you to yourself that’ll make you stronger to help others. Because no one that doesn’t know themselves is not worth his salt. They can’t lead anybody at any time, unless they know themselves, and I don’t see very much carryover here of what I’d hoped of really knowing oneself. I said I’m disappointed. From Sunday to Monday night, I was disappointed. I was really disappointed from Sunday until Monday night in council situations that came back to my attention. Not because anyone volunteered it to me or brought it to me, but because I had to get it and I’m really– I’m really weary with this. And I want to say that Father Jones is calm, but that’s the most dangerous time. The calm comes just before the storm.

I’m about ready to blow. Now I– what I’m gonna blow is, I’m going to take care of people that’re gonna be honorable. If I have to put six-foot high fence around here and stop every plan I had for outreach and put an electric wire around here, I’ll keep out the dogs, uh, uh, and I’m not talking about four-legged ones, ‘cause they’re sweet. I’ll keep out (stretches out word) all of the rascals that are trying to do harm to those that want to work with me in principle. Doesn’t mean blind agreement with me, but work with principle. Give me their word and uh, share and share alike. I’m tired of being a watchman on the helm. This place you’ve got stand on guard of it, on top of it, night and day. You said no other church has to do that. Well, no other church ever did try to do anything about its dishonesty, just let its dishonesty grow, and get so high and heavy and thick that you couldn’t do anything about it, so no one ever would try to straighten out anything, because if you start to straighten it out, you’d to tore the whole thing up. That’s how dishonest every movement’s been up until now. And this movement can get that way overnight. I have to watch it every minute. And if you let this go a year, it’s– it’s– it’s gone. (Pause)

And I had– I had some things it– it– right in the– in the helm of counsel. This week I ordered something, I had a traitor here, a minister, and I ordered him how to be handled, and I told sisters how to handle him, and I said take that brother out, and show him through senior citizen homes and so forth, but one of my (stretches out word) own lieutenants’ ego for a moment got between him and what was good, because a sister told him Jim doesn’t want that. He says I said it’s going to be, so I had to spend long distance calls today, and get Sister Karen Layton to do some repair work, because of something that one– my closest cooperation. And I feel I’ve been let down by some of you that are in the closest circle. I’m really stirred– I can’t– I can’t go out and jump on this man and let down the fallen ways. I just jotted down. I– I knew this was coming, though I wasn’t posted it was coming, so I made some notes to myself. (Pause) Let them in. Don’t let them stand there at the door, let them in. I’m not healing anybody in the sense that I– I’ll be disrupted, but just let ‘em move quietly. No chatting now, tell them very warm– kindly, no chitchatting at the door. No chit chat, no– none of your amenities, none of your social amenities. I don’t want you greeting anybody. You keep your mind up here and don’t you even look back there to see where I’m correcting. You all keep your faces up here. (Pause) I– Now ordinarily there’s time for that and we need to fill the atmosphere with love, but not–

We’re– we’re in danger. This movement’s in danger, and it’s not in danger from without, but from within. Alliances that are being formed within the movement. We– I’m principle. The marriage should be to me. I don’t need that marriage, and I don’t want that marriage, but the office doesn’t have anybody else to put in its position right now, so I’m here and it– the first alliance and first marriage should be to me. Too many of you people, (pause) follow someone else here instead of me as a basic ideal, and I’m afraid of it. I like it because it reduces some of my strain, my work, but you’re here with other contacts. You’re here because of some– (pause) I– I don’t know how to make this, some uh– some other hero, and there shouldn’t be any heroes but socialism anyway. You– you pursue this work through somebody else. You follow through someone else, you make alliances with people in my own staff and council, thinking that will make you in. You do favors for people in my council and staff, and I’m going to tell you frankly, I don’t think they’re wise enough to always know what’s going on. Many times they are, but not always are they wise enough to know that they’re being used. Little courtesies. I saw one of them done just not more than a few hours ago, the– one of the members of my board. And all they were trying to do is manipulate you, and you didn’t know it. You took it hook, line and sinker. (Pause)

This is a terrible task we’re called to do, to be honest amidst a dishonest day, a totally dishonest generation. And you’re going to have to get convicted of my honesty, or you’re going to have to get out of here. And all of this kind of stuff Herman reveals to me, you’re not convicted of my honesty. You wouldn’t lie to me, you wouldn’t do these games, if you were convicted of my honesty. Now– By this I mean, if you were convicted of the– the full measure of my devotion, as I put this picture up there. Each of these men in that picture to some degree gave their last measure of devotion. I’d like for you to talk it over and over and over, you get in your mind.  You see, I have to give so much of my– my body and my mind, that if anyone will be sick, it’ll be I. If anyone will be bearing infirmities or aging, it’ll be me, because I have to take on everybody’s problems. If I didn’t, I would never age. I think I could really whip it. I’ve got the keys. I– I really got the keys to immortality. But instead of keeping it, I’m opening it up as much as I can for you. But the risk is, in opening it for you, I lose it for myself. (Pause) And I don’t mind that whatsoever, if youbecome what I am in principle. If you become the kind of sensitive being that I am, then I’m happy to lose my life.

Some of you think it’s easy being God. (stumbles over words) I can help people. I can help myself when I can. There might be such a thing that I would be drawn on by such uh, number of disloyalties as this or the disloyalties that I’ve seen in the last three days, that I could have a stroke. Instructions are given. I will never permit being re– kept alive with a stroke. I will not allow it. Are you willing to do that? Some people recover from a stroke. I will not take– it’s only given a certain limited time. If, through hypocrisy and dishonesty and disloyalty, I am overdrawn, and I am for any reason paralyzed or disa– disabled, there’re only a manner of hours for it to get corrected, or I am to be removed from the scene, and my mind will make its transmigration, its transmission into another mind that I– into another body that I’ve already selected. We’ve already gone over that. That there’ll be someone else setting in this seat. (Pause) Now I’m not going to sit and let that happen easily. I’m getting mighty fed up with this, ‘cause I’m not dying for principle. I’m dying for crap. When I see this kind of stuff, I’m not dying for principle. I’m not laying down my life to save humanity, if humanity doesn’t lift itself up. If you don’t become what I am, and I’m saying this to every blessed one of you, ‘cause you– I saw– and I’m– I’m not going to free anyone in that council. I’m not going to free a one, ‘cause I think I’m close enough to some of you to say. There wasn’t a one for that council last night didn’t play games, one sort or another. You don’t level with me, or even in some cases try to put me in a bad spot, (Pause) try to get around rules and laws set up that you know you can’t quote anything unless you say who it is. You know that’s the rule. And as I said, just this case right now, there’s some charge. I don’t know, I’m going to ask the brother just to try to show you what kind of principle we have. Man who I trust second to none, if brother did this, I want to find out if he did this, ‘cause he did wrong, if he did it. (unintelligible word) his words on it, we have no prior, we’re just giving his– his response right now. He’s over there working hard in that– every day. Been around for uh–

Voice: (too soft)

Jones: (Reads from note) I feel Archie made a statement last night that he shouldna– shouldna made. Something was critical, made critical of– uh, made a criticism made about one of the counselors, namely Karen. When he ask who said it, he refused to say, so I assume that you had said it, and told him that I was definitely assuming that you had said this, and he didn’t deny that you had said this. I got on him for this, as I said, he shouldn’ve said it, since it made me very paranoid, though I told him that I did feel the statement was true. Other council members got on him too. (Pause) I feel Archie should at least try to deny that you said it, whether you did or not. Then he shoulda said he was sorry for saying it, but he wouldn’t deny it, nor would he apologize for anything. Today around four pm, Archie called and said Jack [Beam] was the one who said it. He did admit that it was a lack of character on his part for bringing this up to me. I didn’t see this part now– (sighs deeply) Oh dear. He just started crying after a while, and told me how hard he works and how people don’t appreciate it. He said I should allow him to be a human being. He did apologize and ask that he co– what he could do to make it right. I told him to apologize to you. I thought it was terrible that he let you– let me think all night and all day that you had said it, and he hasn’t had much time to take care of it, and this part was on the part–

Female 8: – and the other council members–

Jones: – the other council members what?

Female 8: (too soft)

Jones: No?

Female 8: (unintelligible)

Jones: No. (unintelligible name), what are you gonna say here about this brother? (stumbles over words), Archie says– I got big problems here dealing with him, amidst the core of the work.

Archie: I– I said it, I– and I shouldn’t have said it, as I said to her. And I also apologized to her for saying it. The fact that uh, she would then depress me was is why  itcame to the point that did in terms of my emotions, and I–

Jones: What you shoulda said is this, and you know this, ‘cause you’re a principled person. You got a lot more principle (unintelligible words) more responsibility. You cannot be, at this stage, uh, the– the boat is rocking, you can’t be uh– indulge in being a human being, ‘cause there’re too many human beings here. So you can’t be a human being. (tape break-up) now crying was not in order, nor was that request that you be a human being, because we’re in trouble here. This old ship of state’s in trouble. I’ll make it, but it’s in trouble. You shouldn’t have said uh, anyonesaid it. You should [have said], I think, Karen, that you are good at getting people to do certain work–

Archie: – I feel–

Jones: –delegating work.

Archie: I– I recognize that, (unintelligible)–

Jones: But you uh– sometimes were uh, uh– (Pause) That’s something uh– I’m not going to quote all this phrase, not that it’s anything terribly, terribly indicting, it’s just– I wanna say something else to you people too, I’ll take from you– I cuss with a purpose. I don’t like cussing, just to be hearing it, ‘cause you’re going to end up cussing at the wrong time, and I know exactly when to do it and when not to. And some of you get the idea that just because I cuss, that that is a kind of a grand license to cuss any time you please, say anything you want to, just as vulgar and foul mouth as you want to be.

Voices in Crowd: That’s right.

Jones: Now I’m not foul-mouthed. I am trying to break down hypocrisy. I only cuss to break down hypocrisy. Mother [Marceline] LeTourneau said, and she was a classic example of it. She said when I was so upset about this cussing, I realized it was self-righteousness. It’s hypocrisy. She got the message, and she– and I’m not cussing to her anymore. I don’t need to cuss for Mother LeTourneau, but there might be somebody else that’s a good soul in the making that I cuss for. But what are you cussing for, is the question.

Crowd: Murmuring

Jones: Just to cuss. As– And down there at the sch– at the chur– the kids can tell you, when I say anything to my children or anything said, I say let’s keep it– let’s keep it cl– clear. Let’s keep the language improved, and we do it there. And it’s very hard for these children to understand. And I’m not talking addressing that to you, Archie, that’s­– I’m on another tangent now. ‘Cause you’re certainly not one of those that uh, is a terrible offender in that, but I did use to say, there is some cuss words here involved which I don’t think there’s any point in repeating. Some of you get a glee in it, you just get a joyful glee, and uh, at times I think there’s a necessary freedom of repression. But do it through me vicariously. Don’t go out and do your thing. If you need to hear something, and you need a little laugh, you laugh here while we’ve got a closed controlled door. Don’t you go outside in the houses and start cussing and uh, creating animosities, because you don’t know how to break hypocrisy, or you don’t know how to break self-righteousness. I am the one that knows how to do that. And uh, it’s a tough job to do it right. And if anybody can do it, I can do it. You can’t do it. You’re only just going to create more disharmony by your– your language, and so I would uh– I’d cool it.

Archie: May I– Father, may I say, now what I’m gonna say to you, I’ve got–I’ve got a responsibility.

Jones: To that effect, now that it’s out and you want my opinion, and I don’t think you shoulda said what you said. I don’t think you shoulda said that leaves me any– I don’t think that shoulda been discussed. I don’t think you shoulda reacted to it. I think you should have kept it cool, and if you’d had more faith in me, you would’ve kept your cool and talked to him. So now it’s out. I’ll let you all know, where I think. Yes, I think it’s true, but I’m not the authorof it. But I think that’s true, that you relegate work well, but sometimes you shift work and uh, I’m not the author of this– this idea.

Archie: (softly) That’s right. That’s right.

Jones: And I’m– I’m put in a bad spot here, but– So you won’t feel that paranoia, I’ll tell you right now, and I also think that if everybody else works as well as you did, I’d be in pretty good shape, if they all worked as well as you did.

Archie: Umm-hmm.

Jones: You’ve still– But it’s the old saying of, to whom much is given, much is required. And you uh– But you never get out of it, ‘cause it’s– As soon as you shift, I’m always there. When you try to shift now last night, you went home early and I came in. The very night I come home– uh, come in, you went home early.

Female: (too low)

Jones: Yeah, I know but it still works that way. Any way– any way it– any way it goes, you– you get caught in it, so– she gets caught in it, some of the rest of you don’t get caught in it. What I’m trying to say is, the more you have responsibility, the more conscience you have, the more these things come to your attention. You just get caught in the quick. There was disorganization here, and people didn’t know what they were doing here. And some of the other letter-writing people. When a leader leaves, they– they just people running, time wasted. That letter writing thing is– is– is– it saved us time and again through following instructions of writing some person. When we got into some trouble, we’d made a friend someplace, because I’d had some prior prophetic awareness and we’d made a friend, we could call on that friend, be a senator or whoever. We could call on that. I don’t mean a friend in a real sense. But I’m talking about somebody who saw us as votes. But, as I said, if everybody worked as hard as she did, it would be fine, but the whole issue in front of the council with strong people – two of my stronger people – debating what I said or didn’t say, is perfectly asinine, and you should not’ve made this statement. That uh– (Pause) Although I don’t– Uh, since it made– it made me very paranoid, but I don’t think that’s just the way you said it, paranoid about me. I think your implication was that you were paranoid about me.

Female: No.

Jones: Everything we do –  I’m going to say this just down– to be right down the line, so we can get it – everything we do, we don’t put it right in the right– right (unintelligible word). What you’re really saying, you didn’t trust me. Just like we’ve said when we’ve got on council about homosexuality, one of you back there, you’ve set up kind of a set-up, and you tried to divert the situation to somebody else. We set up things to make ourselves look good, and I’m tired of it, because I’m not trying to do it. I’m only trying to keep this office alive. Now, if somebody else wants to take this office tonight, I’m ready for you to do it, and I’ll be glad for you to do it, and I (unintelligible word) make you look good, because I’m mighty tired of being the bad guy and having to be sick for hours because of the hate that comes my way and taking this thing in. I don’t like sickness. I’m just like you. I don’t like to feel bad. I don’t like to feel bad, right now I feel bad. I’m gonna send out his (unintelligible word). His– his reaction’s a subconscious thing, it’s– but it’s there. I get negative energy from you. I’m mad or embarrassed. Whatever. All of these things, whether embarrassment or mad, they come back at me as fiery darts, and I’m tired of it. And uh, I don’t have the characterlessness to withdraw, so you’re going to have to withdraw. And I mean withdraw clear out of this country, so you’d better prepare to know where you’re going to go, if you get in any more trouble. You better make it clear, ‘cause you’re going to have to give up that job, and you’re going to have to go clear across this United States, ‘cause I’m not going to have any more trouble around here.

Female: (too low)

Jones: (Stumbles over words) If I get my mind uh, coordinated–

Female: (too low)

Jones: It was an or– an ordeal last night that uh– as you know. (Pause) And we have ordeals around here. We got– we got life and death matters. We got political matters. I can’t get through your heads on the life of my (tape failure) (unintelligible word). I’m involved in far more serious work than is in this room.

Voice in Crowd: True.

Jones: And I don’t appreciate what you hold in your mind. I don’t care what you want to tell, you can tell whatever you darn well please. (Passionate) Whatever I have done, I have done it, and I’m tired of some of you trying to make exceptions. There is no exceptions. Whatever I have done with you has never been for selfish reasons. It’s only to bring you to some point. I love you all, and I love some of you in such a way that as to give you a responsibility. You had to mature, you had to evolve.

Voice in Crowd: That’s right.

Jones: And I’m tired– I’m mighty tired of this game saying, well, in here (mimics working machine) he says this, but it didn’t mean me, or making some kind of set-up, but it doesn’t mean me. I meant you. I meant you. (Pause) I repeat what I say, I have never based a relationship (tape edit) I don’t know what it is, and my wife has been the first to say that. I have based my love for her or for anyone else on giving them what I felt they needed. They have in return supported socialism in one measure or another, but I have not needed anyone. I feel that is capitalistic. I will not allow that to build in me. Need. I feel it’s very unfair to need. I’m not expecting that of you, but I don’t expect anyone to put me in that light anymore. I don’t need. All I need is to be thorough– I need peace, and I don’t need people. (Pause) Can’t go into a situation where there is– I want to go in– and I enjoy some situations more than I do others. It’s true. Not that I enjoy the people any more, but I go into some situations where I’ve visited uh, the homes in town today – both these homes here – visited all of our homes round through the area. And the only real in pl– pleasure I had (out of mic) visit Liane Harris, who’s in a cast. I walked in and she says, (excited) Wonderful. You– and then just started in telling me beautiful things–

Tape Ends