D-3-J-1a
Meeting with J.T. Clarke, March 21, 1978
[Editor’s note: This memo also appears as D-2-P-14A – 14B on page https://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=133464.]
Sharon Amos
John Clarke (old 21/3/78)
– his calling PM and Reid about meeting with JJ
– he said he’d call the PM late tonight or tomorrow/ he said however he doesn’t want to do it right now because it is not in “your interest or mine”
– said there is nothing to prevent JJ from coming to Georgetown
– he said that regarding the habeous corpus he said the order is nici, granted against JJ, summons by McDoom, solicitor asking habeous corpus proceedings be declared null and void/ he said the judge will declare it null and void
– he said the order was 14/9/77 and yet there was no appearance on behalf of the respondent, order that a bench warrent be issued for the arrest of the infant John [Victor Stoen] and said child be made a ward of the court/ leave was granted since 19/9/77 for contempt of JJ/ in event personal service not affected, can be served by affixing 3 different copies on 3 different places on the gate of PT in the Northwest and a 4th copy served on personal secretary of JJ (someone holding himself out as a servant of JJ) – JJ has to tell the world “this is my agent and servant” – but John said this order is stupid and has ben set aside
– Clarke got the copy from Judge [Aubrey] Bishop / it’s been stayed officially
– he said the original order was made December 1977, Joyce Touchette to be brought up for contempt/ they said she had the custody
– he doesn’t want to trouble Dr. [Ptolemy] Reid/ Cabinet day
– he said I shouldn’t mention the PM’s name on the phone
– he said he doesn’t want to embarrass the PM [Prime Minister Forbes Burnham] by making an appt for him with JJ while present legal proceedings are in process/ can’t do that openly while present proceedings are in effect/ justice must not only be done but must appear to be done
– John Clarke was going to have the court moved to set aside the order but the court realizes it themselves and is doing it themselves/ make it null and void
– there is nothing to prevent JJ from coming in to town
– nobody can give you a date/ can’t force hand of judge, won’t reveal the other ways you can deal with it
– California complaining “only way JJ can win is to delay the situation”, as they say JJ has the govt. in his hands – John said “you haven’t got patience”
– he said it is in your favor and in your interest to wait
– Judge Bishop told him it would be solved in 2-3 weeks
– John wants to come to Jonestown/ he will confirm if he is coming before the day is done/ he had some previous religious appt. will let us know
– PM and Dr. Reid and the govt. are on your side, he said
– John has close “indirect” connection with the judge in the background/ can’t be too direct in arranging for JJ to see the pM/ said PM would be embarrassed if the other side heard JJ had seen the PM
– however he said he’d hint to Dr. Reid and the PM that they could see JJ around 30/3 or 31/3 when JJ is in town/ he felt he could do this without their being embarrassed
– he said there is a file, large one of proceedings from the US/ govt. to govt communication from the US asking the position “why should an American child be forced to remain in this country”- said that Stoen is writing senators, to the foreign office
– John said he couldn’t tell us the names
– govt. says there’s nothing to worry about, chewed me out for asking him the names
JOHN CLARKE (dinner when he came over 3/78)
– he said that he used to be an Ambassador (to some African country like Uganda???)
– he told us of his experiences and how he tried to be fair to the people and still be trusted by the govt.
– he said that the PM had to arrest certain people at one time/ Jagans [Cheddi and Janet Jagan] were both arrested and the files of the case were in John’s hands/ he said that the Jagans actually murdered someone who disagreed with them and then denied it/ he said Jagan was an evil woman
– he said he had the files still/ they were very confidential
– he was very positive but did ask the question “do beatings really happen?” (over)
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D-3-J-1b
– we explained that of course they didn’t happen, we didn’t use corporal punishment at all, and told how we used positive reinforcements etc.
– he said that the case of John, that it made a difference that the judge now knew that JJ is the father of John/ he said the Judge didn’t know that before but now he knows it, it makes a difference/ ordinarily one doesn’t have a right to keep a woman’s child/ she is the natural custodian unless it is deemed in the interest of a child/ if she is unfit morally, physically and financially (in this case since the father asked JJ to sire the child, and the child was voluntarily placed under J’s care and protection by both parents it makes a difference)
– the California paper admits Tim wrote the confession/ he can’t get out of it (tho in the article he says he signed it but it was foolish), John knew JJ was the father of John but thought it was too delicate a matter to bring out
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D-3-J-2
Meeting with J.T. Clarke, April 10, 1978
Sharon Amos
John Clarke 10/4/78 (Debbie & Sharon) t
– re Stoen case: he said that he hadn’t heard anything about the case but the judge said 3-4 weeks and now it isn’t settled, he thinks the judge wants to leave it alone, let it fizzle out, said it was his feeling that it came from up high to leave it alone
– said regarding immigration that no-one could take the child out/ even JJ would have to explain why he was taking John out
– John Clarke claimed the rule was aimed against Tim/ he said that Tim would like the child to go out with JJ so he could start proceedings against JJ in the US
– John said that no-one can take the child out until something is settled with the case
– he reiterated that the govt. is on our side
– said regarding the arrest orders that they’re in the judge’s desk and can’t be activated by the marshall
– re PM [Prime Minister Forbes Burnham] going to USSR; said that people (not John Clarke) told the PM not to go hut the PM won’t listen/ nothing can stop him once he makes up his mind/ [Deputy Prime Minister Ptolemy] Reid wouldn’t interfere with the PM either on issues when he makes up his mind (not that Reid is against him going to USSR but just in general Reid won’t interfere), Reid tries to go along with the PM’s orders
– said USSR. just will try to come over here to Guyana and communize people/ USSR is stingy/ won’t help except to give you guns to fight/ we in Guyana should stay with our old friends Canada, US, England
– US is always willing to help
– USSR has nothing to give, neither does GSR or North Korea/ he said the PM claimed on the radio he was going there to cement relations
Blackout
– John was very irritated about the blackout, can’t work, no lights, no water
– John is going to a lawyer’s conference in Antiqua Tues – Sun
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D-3-J-3
Meeting with J.T. Clarke, April 12, 1978
Sharon Amos
John Clarke 12/4/78
– regarding the Stoen case and how delay could be a benefit to Stoen (we told him what Dick McCoy said), he said that it is not a govt to govt matter, US can’t interfere and the US said so already (in the letters we showed him)
– we gave him the picture he had asked for of Rosylyn [Rosalynn] Carter and JJ (he said he’d send it to Burnham)
– he said that in terms of the orders, the legal ruling could only be that Jim bring the child in on a habeous corpus ruling for the court to decide on the custody/ I asked if that would be done and he said such a ruling won’t be made
– regarding immigration and the ruling of the Immigration dept, he said that the person taking the child out has to be the legal guardian of the child
– immigration has been instructed not to let the child go out with anyone/ I asked if that was to favor Stoen as Stoen knows he could never get the child (over all our dead bodies) and John said that the child’s mother is the only legal guardian fo the child. But in response to whether she could take the child out, he said “no not unless the court has decided that and they will not do so
– he said that immigration has been made aware of the controvercy regarding this child
– the child is not to leave the country with JJ or anyone/ have to show legal authority to take the child out
– asked who it was that authorized this and he wouldn’t say, said he couldn’t reveal his sources that it was confidential
– He said the Stoen eventually will let you have the child/ time will do it
– he said that JJ is holding the child unlawfully/ that JJ hasn’t made application to have the child (we explained that JJ had a paper signed by Grace and he said that didn’t make any difference)
– he said a woman can’t give away her child
– we talked about J’s right to keep the child/ the circumstances with a transvestite and abandonment and he said J has probably a moral right
MRS. BURNHAM
– told him positive things and then as was instructed, told him about the cancellation of her meeting with JJ
– he said that she had said to him that she promised she would visit Jonestown
DEVALUATION
– don’t see it done here, Guyana has to keep its currancy up/ cut your own neck if you devaluate with all the “stupid things” happening here
– can’t see it done here
BACK TO STOEN CASE
– he said “this lady gave her child to keep” but no legal document/ deep understanding can be there but the law doesn’t sanction such a thing unless there is adoption and people can change their minds
– mother can come at any time but no-one will give her the child however
– no court will listen to her
– I don’t think they’ll try to get the child/ they tried and had utter frustration
– when I said they may do a propaganda campaign in the US, he said that propaganda in the US won’t affect us
SHIRLEY FIELD-RIDLEY
– I asked if he had met with her (when he talked to her on the phone he had said he’d meet with her), he said no, I said something about what she said about foreign enemies and what did he think about that
– he said that Shirley was positive about our work but she said that there are “awful things in the US going on and the govt, has to be careful because of things said in the US. Govt, doesn’t needlessly go into things. Govt. has to appear to be impartial. Can’t champeop [champion] your cause. Has to keep an open mind. But she knows you are doing good work.”
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D-3-J-4
Meeting with J.T. Clarke, May 5, 1978
Sharon Amos
J.T. Clarke 5/5/78 (Sharon, Terri J)
– he said it was good to see us/ he always enjoys hugging us / asked Terri to give him an especially good hug
– said when we asked him to come over that it was his turn/ he’s only been back grom [from] Antigua a week but will invite us over
– he said while in Antigua, he saw the President of the Antigua Bar Association Louie H. Lockhart Esq. and this man had our little booklet Jonestown, a model community and talked about what a good project (good works) we were doing/ J.T. said “yes, I’m very concerned about them)
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D-3-J-5
Phone call with J.T. Clarke, May, 1978
Deborah Touchette
May 1978
John Clarke
PHONE w/ Deborah T.
– I called to invite him over for cocktails, for the open house and to our cultural program.
– Mrs Clarke said he was very ill and that he had just come from the hospital
– I asked if he could see visitors
– she said he’s very ill, will try to visit him next few days
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D-3-J-6
[Editor’s note: This page is a virtually illegible copy of the page that appears at BB-2-ff-2 on page https://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=124138.]
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D-3-J-7a
Meeting with J.T. Clarke, March 17, 1978
[Handwritten date at bottom of page: “March 17, 78 Deborah Touchette”]
2.) J.T. CLARKE/CLARKE & MARTIN SOLICITORS: visited by Sharon Amos, Tim Carter, & Deb T…. John Stoen; He said this is not a matter that should remain dormant. He has taken it upon himself to do some private investigations for us on Tuesday next week. In some cases we let sleeping dogs lie… but this should not be hanging over a man’s head, he should be able to move about freely. There is nothing to prevent Stoen from comming down to start proceedings although Stoen has no right of proceedings because he has no jurisdiction in the court – he is not a citizen. Sharon asked if there was some way we could get absolute assurance? He said no, you can’t prevent people from making himself a persistant nusance. Said if he had taken the case, he would have brought that matter to a finality, he would have gotton a victory of which he was entitled. Mentioned he was familar with our connection with Dr. Martin Luther King, said he was moved by what we were doing
He called to make an appt. with Dr. Reid in our presence, set for Tuesday of next week, he said he would have dinner with us Tue night and fill us in on the details. He said he wanted to set up appts, between Bishop Jones & Dr. Reid and Bishop Jones and the Prime Minister.
He now feels the judge should know that Jim is the proper father of the child,
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D-3-J-7b
– 2 –
at first he did not think so. Dr. Reid’s Secretary returned the call and set appt definately for Tue. J.T. Clarke said his firm contacted Burnham & Reid for consolutation when the arrest order went out for Jim, he said Burnham’s response was “Why the hell are they bothering this man?” Reid said ‘’No warrent will be served to Jim in Guyana.” He didn’t know what Dr. Reid had done on the issue, he said he wasn’t there. Judge Bishop approched J.T. Clarke in the initial stages about Jim and asked what the position was with Bishop Jones, he said some type of racket was going on in the North West. J.T. told Judge Bishop he had no right to issue an arrest order. He explained the order would have had to be given to Jim in person, served a second time, refused a second time, and if Jim had a ginuine excuse they still could not serve the arrest order. Bishop said he didn’t know. The Register General, Cde. Barnwell, said these people are protected (said to Judge Bishop) stop trying to lock up any people in connection with the Peoples Temple, he said that was an order from the Prime Minister. The Chief Marshall Mr. Rudder has resigned now, he told Clarke, “Man this thing has trouble in it and I’m not going to worry my head about it. ref to Jim.
Clarke said all relevant persons have been told Stoen has no jurisdiction in the country. He is not a prohibited immigrant. Immigration people know that the child is not to be taken out of the country.
J.T. Clarke said that Judge Bishop was a personal friend of Sir Lionel’s in fact he is the Godfather of Luckhoo’s child. Later Clarke said he too was a friend of Judge Bishop, said Bishop listens to the govt., he’s quite straight forward, he made a ginuine mistake, didn’t have the full facts before him. Sharon asked if he was humble? Would he recall the order? Clarke said “yes, should be”. He said if Bishop decides not to recall the order, we must give them the authority to act on behalf of Jim Jones and they will sign a summons to alter and cancell the mistake he made on the grounds the he errored in law although he didn’t think it would come to that.
Clarke said he knew that Reid and the P.M. had nothing enemical [inimical] against us. J.T. Clarke is a practicing Christian, a strong member of the Anglican church mentiond that they collected 500.00 in his office alone to give to the new Bishop for a robe…) member of St. Georges Anglican Church
J.T. called Mrs. Burnham’s office, she said she would be available in five munites and returned his call. He told her we were inviting twelve or so wemon to our project from the WRSM [Women’s Revolutionary Socialist Movement] with all expenses paid. He told us if we got Mrs. Burnham and a few wemon from the WRSM on our side, our troubles would be over. He asked for a copy of the article from Tim Stoen saying Dr. Reid would not see him, that the Peoples Temple had bought off all the officials in Guyana.
Also placed a call to Mrs. Margaret Ackman, she was in parlimant, received his call anyway. (He mentioned his firm has done free legal service, sometimes for people Ackman has tried to help) He told her they could spend a week of a few days and teach the wemon what they wanted us to know, she said she we understood we had a wonderful institute up there. She is the second Vice President of the WRSM) She would come to visit us as soon as possible. J.T. said she was the Prime Ministers right hand whip, if she tells the P.M. to go drown himself, he will.. He explained how she blackmailed people in bussiness and rich east Indians who came to Guyana Illegally and would make then pay in the thousands of dollars to the PRC or she would turn then in to be shipped back to their country. This is when the PNC was struggling to get on it’s feet.
Sharon asked about [Desmond] Hoyte and his unfriendlyness to us. J.T. Clarke said he was a personal friend of Hoyte. Hoyte had grown up under him, he said he had not herd of Min. Hoyte saying anything about us. The govt is very sensitive to any acuation [accusation] of neglect of the amerlndians, he thought that
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D-3-J-7c
[Receipt used as scratch paper, not transcribed]
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D-3-J-7d
– 3-
H Hoyte had written the article as a generl statement, then stated if Hoyte has anything against you, its his personal feelings, not the Govt. He said Catholics have been prohibited of having anything to do w/Amerindians, They were seating then to vote for the United Front and caused a violent upriseing somewhere in the Rupinuni. Sharon asked him to arrange Hoyte to speak to us. He said he would speak to Hoyte.
Mrs. Burnham; J. T. said he was proud of her (phone call) He was authorized to extend an invitation to her and twelve members of the WRSM all expenses paid so perhaps they would learn from us as well as we could learn from them. She said she will come as early as possible. She said she saw our exhibition at the WRXM conference. She has a very high standard of appreciation in that she had heard nothing but good things about us. She expressed her desire to come and look around and fror a greater appreciation of the work that we are doing. She has some things to straighten out first and will come as soon as possible.
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D-3-J-7e
[Receipt used as scratch paper, not transcribed]
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D-3-J-8a
Meeting with J.T. Clarke, March 22, 1978
[Handwritten notation at bottom of page: “March 22, Deborah Touchette”]
4) J.T. Clarke: Visited by Sharon Amos, Deb. T., & Tim Carter (ref. as to weather J.T. had talked to the P.M. [Prime Minister Forbes Burnham] as he had told us he would) J.T. said the P.M. waved at him, but he could never had forgiven him, had he interrupted in that he was passing his house heading home to read the state papers after parliament, so he didn’t distrub him. He said there is nothing to prevent Jim from comming down. He said he had all the papers, the Habes Corpus [Habeas Corpus], and a summons by McDoom, He said the Habes Cronus was granted against Jim Jones and was summonsed by McDoom. They will ask that the Habes Corpus be declared null-and-void. On the 14, Sept. 1977 and affidavit by Jeff Hass [Haas] ordered a bench warrent arrest for John Victor Stoen, and that the child be made a ward of the court. Leave was granted since Sept 1977 to serve proceeding of contempt on Jim Jones. Three different copies made to be posted on a gate or other buildings constuting [constituting] the Peoples Temple or persons holding themselves out as a servent of Jim Jones. Jim Jones has to tell the world that this is my agent and servent,. (ref. to the representative of Jim). J.T. claims he had the original from Judge Bishop when we first asked him. He said the original order was made to Joyce Touchette, to bring Joyce for contempt of court December 1977 & the third of January 1978. Sharon asked if J.T. had spoken to either [Ptolemy] Reid or the P.M. J.T. said, “I didn’t trouble the, today is cabnet day. He doesn’t like bringing up the P.M. on the telephone. He didn’t want to make an appointment for Jim to see the P.M. right now. He said it would be an embarrassment with the case still pending. I wouldn’t embarrass the P.M. by asking to see Jim Jones now while the case is going on. The P.M. would not appreciate it. He would call the P.M. tomorrow and ask him to see Jim whenever possible. I intended to have the court to set aside and remove the order, but the court is doing it themselves. J.T. is waiting to see what will happen. Sharon asked him again if he had the actual papers of the arrest order on Jim? “I haven’t got the actual papers, I have copies of the arrest order”. He said, “an order has been made, the judge is correcting that order. He had not made the decission yet, but he will. Nobody can give you a date of decission. You cannot force the hand of the judge. Sharon asked what other way to force the hand the judge? Because J.T. had implied that there was another way… J.T. said, “I can’t tell you that. He read a short story about waiting … and said, “if you don’t mind my telling you, patience you haven’t got. It is in our favor to wait, he said. In
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D-3-J-8b
two or three weeks the decission should be made. J.T. said he [three illegible words]. He said he will be getting someone to address the church on Faster Sunday, He said this was a privilege… [illegible initial] said both the P.M. and Dr. Reid and other members of the government are on our side. They are in close and direct in the back ground. Suppose the other side gets hold of the fact the P.M. met Jim: If he comes into town, nothing will happen to happen. [Illegible word] will, in spite of all he has told us hint to the P.M. or Dr. Reid, would it be possible to see him around the 30th or the 31st or the 1st, to see Jim without being embarrassed. J.T. agreed with our concern, said the file is large on Jim. Proceedings have been taken against Jim in the U.S. and sent to Guyana, there have been Govt, communications on this issue, Stoen has been writting to Senators, in turn Senators have written to the Foreign office in Washington, and the Foreign office has been writting the Govt. here. Collens from Foreign affairs has written back saying It is the view of the Govt, that there is nothing to worry about, we have the situation under control.
J.T. Clarke cont., another appt, visited by Sharon, Deb…
He said, “The Prime minister has a broad spectrum of your organization. He’s not concerned with all the little details. He mentioned that Mr. [Mohammed] Shahabuddeen had shown him letters from the Foreign Affairs files. (This was in confidence, he said) There letters from writing Congressmen to the Secretary of State, they in turn give to Guy. Govt. sent to the Prime Minister. The Marshall of the Supreme Court said the People’s Temple as a secret service that knows when the plane landed at the Port and hide themselves away. You can’t find them. The people who matter like you, respect you, know what you’re doing in Guyana, J. T. said. Sharon asked if there were any positive letters in the files on us. J. T. Said “no.” We didn’t feel it was necessary to give copies of the letters to the Prime Minister, (ref. to positive letters we offered of non-interference by the US Govt) but he has the letters to his secretary to send to Dr. Reid as we get there. He said he had talked to Bishop today in court. J. T. said he would talk to Dr. Reid and the P. M. On meeting with Jim on the date of his arrival. J. T. told Bishop that he wouldn’t be bothering him on this issue, but the damn people are worrying him too much (ref. to P.M.). J.T. placed a call to Shirley Field-Ridley while we were in his office. He said, “If you don’t know about them, you should, they’re doing a terrific work. He told her he invited [illegible name] was getting involved because we asked him to let them [balance of page virtually illegible]