Q656 Transcript

If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.

To return to the Tape Index, click here.
To read the Tape Summary, click here. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1Pt. 2).

(This tape was transcribed by Nicole Bissett. The editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance.)

Jeanette Kerns: Good evening.

Carol Kerns: Hi, Jeanette?

Jeanette: Hi, Carol.

Carol: This is Carol.

Jeanette: How are you?

Carol: Fine, how ya doin’?

Jeanette: I thought you were going to call me earlier so I could come and get you.

Carol: I did call earlier, but you weren’t (unintelligible word) home.

Jeanette: Oh, I was at work. How are you?

Carol: All right. What’s been going on?

Jeanette: Pretty good, everything.

Carol: Uh– Yeah, Bonnie told uh, Jim to tell me about what was going on.

Jeanette: Yeah.

Carol: And so, I thought maybe you’d want to tell me your– yourself.

Jeanette: Huh? What? Didn’t he tell you?

Carol: Yeah.

Jeanette: Huh?

Carol: I– I don’t understand what’s– what’s going on with Ruth [Kerns], I wanted some, you know, basic understanding with you.

Jeanette: Okay.

Carol: ‘Cause I don’t want to be (unintelligible word) fighting, you know. It hurts– It hurts me if we’re going to be fighting. I don’t want to– You and me, I don’t want to be anything between us, you know.

Jeanette: Well, there’s nothing really between you and I.

Carol: Okay.

Jeanette: Nothing at all.

Carol: Mm-hmm [Yes].

Jeanette: And that’s the truth. It’s just that Ruth is going to have an operation and she didn’t have any place to go. (Pause) Kidney operation.

Carol: Well, you know, so you wouldn’t have had to take it on yourself, you coulda told, you know, let us know, you know, we coulda helped as a– on a group, as a group basis you know? Father said that he really– he loves her. He loves you, and he’s willing to forget, you know, willing to forget anything she has, you know, done or anything, you know.

Jeanette: Well, you know, there’s no problem about that. I realize that completely, and you know, and uh, there’s no problem with that. Trying to (unintelligible word) your point. But there’s nothing that’s going to come in between you and I.

Carol: Okay, so what happened?

Jeanette: Somebody on the phone?

Carol: Huh?

Jeanette: Somebody on the other line?

Carol: No. Just me. Oh, Ann Harris passed.

Jeanette: So, but uh, you know, Ruth is going to be moving out, short– you know, when she finds out exactly what’s happening. (unintelligible name) already rented his (unintelligible word) apartment. So. She’ll be moving out in about two and a half weeks.

Carol: Oh. Okay, well, I didn’t understand, also, ‘cause– like, my mom [Penny Kerns] came out, I don’t understand, you know, how she would– how it would upset you coming– her coming so late at night, you know.

Jeanette: She came at 4:00 in the morning.

Carol: Yeah, I know.

Jeanette: It was horrible.

Carol: But I don’t understand, like– so Ruth said, if you only knew what was– what was said behind your back, that you would kill yourself.

Jeanette: She was just being emotional.

Carol: Yeah, I don’t know why you wouldna stuck up for her– for uh, you know, denied that–

Jeanette: I told her– I told her to be quiet.

Carol: I know, but you shoulda said–

Jeanette: She doesn’t say the right thing all the time.

Carol: Father has never said anything behind her back. She has never–

Jeanette: I know that.

Carol: I know– but you shoulda said, you know– you know how Penny has suicidal tendencies. You– You shoulda said that wasn’t true.

Jeanette: I do not understand your point– your stand at all.

Carol: Well– Well, you shoulda said that wasn’t true.

Jeanette: Carol, what did you– You didn’t even hear my side of it.

Carol: Okay. Well–

Jeanette: You just listened to Penny’s side.

Carol: Now what– Okay.

Jeanette: You should be more objective. And I have a lot of trust in you, I know you’re intelligent.

Carol: Okay.

Jeanette: You should be more objective.

Carol: Well, I want to listen to your side. So–

Jeanette: Well, I think we should discuss it, not­– not over the phone, but in– person to person. (Pause) Okay?

Carol: Well, you want to come out here and talk with us?

Jeanette: Where are you?

Carol: I’m at– I’m near ch– I’m here near church. Annie Harris was in our church.

Jeanette: Annie Harris was– I thought you weren’t gonna come over this weekend.

Carol: Huh? Well, I couldn’t get a hold of you.

Jeanette: How– how much did you try?

Carol: Huh? I tried quite a few times today.

Jeanette: What time?

Carol: I tried– (sigh) Oh, when I first got here, I tried and you weren’t home.

Jeanette: And then what time did you try again?

Carol: I tried in the afternoon.

Jeanette: What time?

Carol: I don’t remember. It was about two o’clock. But uh, I was in service, you know, and I didn’t want to miss service either.

Jeanette: Well, I want– I want to tell you right now, okay?

Carol: Yeah.

Jeanette: That I’m not going to– there’s no worry, that I didn’t say anything wrong against the Temple in any way. And I’m not going to. It’s just that Ruth didn’t have any place to go. At all.

Carol: Yeah.

Jeanette: And there’s no problem in her thinking– saying anything to me about any other thing. ‘Cause that’s what you think.

Carol: Well, I was kinda upset, ‘cause uh– Did you say you were leaving– you had left the church?

Jeanette: No. (Pause) I wasn’t– I’m not participating in it like I used to.

Carol: Yeah, I know. It’s kinda bad. ‘Cause you know, it seems to me like we do need a group.

Jeanette: Huh?

Carol: Do you feel like we need a group? I don’t know, it seems to me, ‘cause, ya know–

Jeanette: (cuts in) Carol, I want to tell you, okay?

Carol: Yeah, what?

Jeanette: I want you, I– like I told Bonnie. I’m sure she told you everything I said, and probably not everything I said.

Carol: Mm-hmm.

Jeanette: Okay? And I want you to make up your own mind about what you want to do.

Carol: Well, I made it up.

Jeanette: Huh?

Carol: I’ve made up my mind.

Jeanette: What’re you going to do?

Carol: I think I’m just going to stay at the Valley, because it is a group thing, you know.

Jeanette: Well, I– you have that right. And like, uh, just because Ruth was here, because she was sick, and that’s the only reason, and you’re gonna judge me for that?

Carol: No, I’m not going to judge you. I want you to tell me.

Jeanette: Well, I know, I know, I know you’re– I know what’s happening with your head.

Carol: Well–

Jeanette: I’m not stupid. Now, I want to tell you something, that I want you to make up your mind, what you want to do. If you want to stay up there, you stay up there. Because I want you to do what you want to do. But I want you to know that I love you, and that you’re welcome here, and that if you come here, there’ll be nothing said–

Carol: (Clears throat)

Jeanette: –against the Temple, I will take you there, let you participate in any function, I will not talk against the people in any way to you. I haven’t done it to Ruth, I haven’t done it to anyone. But I have made up my mind about a few things.

Carol: On what?

Jeanette: Okay?

Carol: Yeah, what have you made up your mind about?

Jeanette: Not about the Temple, but other– other things the way I want to live my life.

Carol: Well, I wish you would come to meetings more. (Pause) I don’t know, you don’t want to? Or– Or you feel you’re not accepted or what?

Jeanette: Well, I can tell you that, but not on the phone. Okay?

Carol: Has– Okay. Well, uh, okay, is Ruth there? Now?

Jeanette: Huh? No, she’s not here right now.

Carol: ‘Cause I wanted to talk to her.

Jeanette: About what?

Carol: Huh? Just talk to her. Because we get all– I don’t want, you know– Father– as much as from Father that he loves her too. You know, and he’s willing, you know, to forget anything.

Jeanette:  Umm-hmm.

Carol: And you know, he said some things that– He wanted me to tell her that.

Jeanette: Well, I want to tell you one thing. I’d never lie to you.

Carol: Umm-hmm. (Banging noises)

Jeanette: What are you doing on the other side of the phone?

Carol: Uh, I’m eating something. Aspirin.

Jeanette: So I knew in my mind that, uh, this would happen.

Carol: Umm-hmm.

Jeanette: And I just hope that they told you the truth from the other side.

Carol: Well, I know that uh– Well, I know Jim didn’t– didn’t– he said, Jim told me– he said that, when Penny tried to talk to him – right? – he didn’t want to hear it, because he’d never talked behind her back before and didn’t wa– didn’t want to now. And he’s never– he uh– he said he wanted to– you know, he– he– I wanted to hear it from you. Okay. Uh–

Jeanette: So what do you think? I told you. What do you think of that?

Carol: Hmm? What did he think of what?

Jeanette: What do you think about that? What I told you?

Carol: What? Well, I think it’s– I think, uh, I– I– It makes me feel better.

Jeanette: Huh?

Carol: Makes me feel better.

Jeanette: Well, what do you think of it? I want to know, what your opinion is of it? I want you to tell me what youthink, not what somebody else thinks.

Carol: Well, I think, (unintelligible phrase) That is– That is what I thought.

Jeanette: Well, tell me what you think again. I want to hear it one more time.

Carol: I think that you should get– should be more involved.

Jeanette: About what?

Carol: Huh?

Jeanette: About how– in– in what way?

Carol: In the church activities.

Jeanette: (cuts in abruptly) How?

Carol: How?

Jeanette: Tell me.

Carol: I don’t know, when you come to meetings when you can.

Jeanette: And what other phases? And I want to know your opinion about having Ruth over here at my– at my apartment.

Carol: I don’t–

Jeanette: When she’s sick.

Carol: I don’t, I don’t feel that uh– I don’t feel you should’ve taken upon yourself to do that. Because I don’t think you know the whole (unintelligible word) about Ruth.

(Two of them talk over each other)

Carol: I think you could have told us, and if I– so we could– woulda helped on a group basis. (pause) You know?

Jeanette: In what type of group basis?

Carol: The group woulda– coulda helped her. We could’ve all helped her.

Jeanette: In what phase?

Carol: Huh?

Jeanette: Tell me how.

Carol: How?

Jeanette: How.

Carol: I don’t know. Money? Whatever money she needed. We– I think that, you still woulda been wise to talk to– talk to– to Scarlet, you know? You know what I mean, Jeanette, instead of taking it on yourself

Jeanette: (cuts in) I have a (unintelligible word)– I wanna tell ya, I have told you– I have told you, and I have told the Temple, every phase of my life.

Carol: Um-hmm.

Jeanette: Up until recently. Every phase of it. And I have been honest with Jim in every phase.

Carol: Well, I know–

Jeanette: (cuts in) And I saw Ruth–

Carol: Uhm-hmm.

Jeanette: She called me. She was– She was gonna have an operation, and she was alone, and I’m gonna– in like there’s any way that I can help her right now, I told her, I don’t want to discuss the Temple in any way. And I don’t want to. That doesn’t have– it doesn’t have anything to do with our relationship right now. I just want to make sure she’s fine.

Carol: Okay.

Jeanette: And that’s it.

Carol: (cuts in) Well, would– would you like to talk to uh, Linda?

Jeanette: Linda?

Carol: Linda’s over here.

Jeanette: No, I don’t want to.

Carol: You want to talk to Linda?

Jeanette: No. (Pause) Linda who?

Carol: Linda Amos?

Jeanette: No, that’s all right.

Carol: ‘Cause I think she would want to talk to you.

Jeanette: Hmm?

Carol: I think she’d probably like to talk to you.

Jeanette: Well, if she wants to talk to me, fine.

Carol: Okay, hang on. I’ll go get her.

(Carol puts phone down) (Pause for several moments)

Linda Amos: Hello, Jeanette?

Jeanette: Hi, Linda.

Linda: Hi, how are you?

Jeanette: Fine.

Linda: Uh. Listen, uh, uh, you know I’m not calling to pressure you to come or anything like that, ‘cause uh, she would understand, you know, if you– you don’t want to come right now. The only thing that, in terms of uh, Ruth– He– He really does care about her too and, you know, in terms of her being sick and stuff like that. And he would’ve been glad to help, you know, help her? And uh, he knows you have uh, character, he really does. I don’t know wh– I don’t think you realize, how many people have bad self-images, you know what I mean?

Jeanette: Mm-hmm.

Linda: And I think that, uh, you’re one that tortures yourself and you’re– My feeling about you is you want to be so perfect that, you’d uh, keep yourself away. Uh– And you don’t have to come, you know what I’m saying, but–

Jeanette: Mm-hmm.

Linda: But just on the basis, ‘cause you feel like you’ve done wrong and stuff, you know?

Jeanette: Well, I don’t feel like I’ve done wrong any more at all.

Linda: You don’t?

Jeanette: In that phase, no.

Linda: Well, that’s good.

Jeanette: ‘Cause I don’t, it’s just that– you know, basic principle of like, you know, excluding her, and then I found out she was sick, and she didn’t have anybody.

Linda: Well–

Jeanette: That was even worse.

Linda: Well, the thing was, I– I don’t think Jim has ever excluded her, ‘cause, you know, after– even after she left, he brought her back, you know. And he said to mention– to mention to you, that even in, you know, the van that he– that he was told about? You know, the one with the radio receiver?

Jeanette: Yeah.

Linda: That could’ve been just a coincidence. There was a van outside and he was told about it. But we were concerned when– when Ruth was picked up by a police officer and talked to him that– you know, could, uh, try to– you know, that it might’ve caused trouble. But we’re still here, I mean, it hasn’t hurt us or anything. And you know, and the fact she went to racist–

Jeanette: She told me about all that, you know?

Linda: Yeah.

Jeanette: And I can understand, you know, the purpose in doing that, that night.

Linda: What was that?

Jeanette: Huh?

Linda: What was the purpose of it?

Jeanette: You know, the purpose of like, uh, you know, as a means of like, you know, showing that, you know, just as– as a means of–

Linda: To protect herself?

Jeanette: To protect herself.

Linda: But see, nobody’s ever been hurt. We’ve never hurt anybody. Linda Swaney said she had no character, she didn’t care about her children, we haven’t done anything to her, we’ve not done anything to anybody. I don’t understand. Do– do– do you know of anyone we’ve hurt or anything?

Jeanette: No, I don’t, and like, if that– that doesn’t– you know, even– even if you did, I can understand the reason why (unintelligible words under Linda) do it.

Linda: Well, we wouldn’t do it, you know.

Jeanette: I know, but Linda, you know–

Linda: I know, you’re just paranoid–

Jeanette: I’m not talking about a religious sense or any of that, you know, crap. I’m talking about basic, you know, things that you have to do sometimes to protect a lot of people.

Linda: Um-hmm. And no–

Jeanette: And I’m not– And I’m not dumb about that. And I’m like, what I’m saying is that, like, as far as like that other, you know, as far as Ruth being here and saying negative things, that has nothing to do with my relationship with the Temple.

Linda: Well, I appreciate that, you know, I understand. Can I–

Jeanette: But what I’m saying is that uh, like, you know, like, she just needed a place to go–

Linda: Yeah– I understand.

Jeanette: –for the time being, till she gets her operation and taken care of.

Linda: Yeah, we understand. Yeah, that’s– Well, I understand that. One thing I wanted to know, is if you would give a message to Ruth. If I’ll tell you this message, would you give the mess– message to Ruth? ‘Cause maybe this’ll make her feel not so shut out.

Jeanette: Well, she really still– I– I’ll tell ya, she feels really hostile.

Linda: Yeah, I know. I don’t think it’ll change her, you know, but you know, uh, it doesn’t hurt to, to extend it, not because we expect her to come back or anything. But it– it just might be that someday, it might mean something to her or at least, uh– (exhales) Jim wanted to extend a message to her and, if you wouldn’t mind doing it.

Jeanette: No, I don’t mind.

Linda: Would you m– Okay. Uh– Jim said that he would be– he kind of hoped that we could talk to Ruth directly, but that’s okay. He said he’d be more than happy to talk to her to get some more coma– camaraderie, you know. And he said he’d even be willing to forget the Ross Case incident, uh, although a lot of people in church are pretty uptight about it, you know, official in the church, because he’s such a hypocrite, Ross Case, you know, that she talked to him. It– Jim said that there were probably things hurtful to her that were done by others, though he’s never hurt her himself, you know. But he pro– he– he does empathize with the fact that, she, you know, probably had some things hurtful done to her, you know? And uh, he– he did say to tell her because, uh, she might be upset about that van incident, and if it was a coincidence, you know–

Jeanette: Yes, she’s really upset about that.

Linda: Yeah, well, he realized that and he doesn’t want her to f– feel, you know, that, uh, if she– if that– if she wasn’t involved in that, he doesn’t want her to feel that, you know, everybody’s hung up about that, ‘cause he was just told about it, you know, he was inside at the time and someone told him that she went to talk to someone in the van, but he said it could’ve been just a coincidence. There was a van there, because it was seen. And you know how people can put things together, okay? But Jim just was told about it, so that’s all he knew. Uh, uh, and uh, that hewondered– he did wonder why Ruth, after hearing the truth, had gone to that Jesus movement, you know. Because, uh– and I’m sure you know, you wonder about that yourself. (Laughs)

Jeanette: Yeah, I know.

Linda: (laughs) And he– he– he– he– well, we kinda wonder too whether she left or was thrown out. We– Some of the people there told us that she was thrown out. We couldn’t– It was hard for us to believe that she could think babies have devils in them or that people could burn eternally in hell, because Jim said she was very intelligent. He really did, I swear.

Jeanette: Yeah.

Linda: And uh, ‘cause all of you guys are, you know, extremely smart. Anyway, uh, and, uh, in terms of her paranoia, uh, Linda Swaney did say in there, you know, a lot of people have heard that– that uh, she had no character and stuff like that. Nothing was done against her. Clara uh, Phillips, you know, wanted to uh, you know, to– to get us to buy her house, she threatened to, you know, blackmail, whitemail her– her, whatever, us, you know?

Jeanette: Right.

Linda: And nothing was done against them, you know. I know people get paranoid and stuff, but nothing has been done. Nothing’s been used against them, you know. Okay, uh, let’s see, another thing that uh, we heard that she doesn’t feel that we got Phillip [Kerns] out of jail, and that Jim risked his life to do that. Well, if they don’t think Jim got Phillip out of jail, which, you know, I mean, he did, but anyway, if they don’t think that– if Ruth doesn’t think it, uh, they certainly knew Jim– uh, she certainly knew Jim risked his life to even involve himself. Right?

Jeanette: Yeah.

Linda: Okay, and uh, we just wanted to say this friend of ours uh, uh, was just cleared of three burglary charges and of interfering with an officer, a black friend, and this kind of thing, uh, that we think is paranormal, that– that Jim can affect this kind of thing. Sh– she can, you know, she may have doubts, but it’s hard for– for us to not feel that, you know, these kind of things must be, you know, unusual. Anyway.

Jeanette: You know, well, you know, it’s just the thing about, you know, what– I think we– well, basically what she just talked about is, you know, about the van.

Linda: Yeah. Well, that’s good to know.

Jeanette: And also about the other, you know, the usage of, you know, you know, healings and all that stuff, as a means of attracting people for, you know, socialism.

Linda: You–

Jeanette: You see what I’m saying? It’s a device.

Linda: Yeah– I understand. But the only

Jeanette: And (unintelligible word) which, you know, is necessary. But like, it’s hard for some people to realize that.

Linda: Except that– what– that– it’s– I mean I can’t really see when people’s lives are– are saved, that it could be a device, ‘cause, like the lady with the five op– uh, had five operations for cancer. Lovie de Pina?

Jeanette: Yeah.

Linda: I mean, how can you say that’s, you know, just a device when a– when a– a life is saved, you know. I mean it’s– I think the thing is, she’s been gone awhile, and in time it’s easy to rationalize, but I mean, person after person– You know what I’m saying?

Jeanette: Yeah.

Linda: You know, okay. Uh– (sighs) Uh, the thing with Ross Case– uh, like even Ross Case, Jim was asked by a policeman if– if Jim wanted to have him put in jail because we– there were objective witnesses that actual saw what went on with Ross Case, you know? And Jim said no. The guy was not put in jail. And that certainly was– You know, somebody could really have used this, if it wasn’t that Jim was kind, he could’ve really done this, because Case took, uh, eighteen– 1800 dollars, ran off Jim when Case first first came to Ukiah from Indianapolis? And he had come to make a way for the people in the church, and yet when people in the church came here, you know, they were running from racists, he wouldn’t give them a bed or a crumb of food, and then he goes on in this holy stuff and all that, you know, being saved and stuff. And, uh, yet, even then, Jim didn’t have him put in jail when he could’ve easily, ‘cause of the, you know when– Okay, and Jim wanted to say to Ruth that, uh, if she feels that you don’t need a group, he feels that she really must know better, that– nowadays, you know, even like getting someone out of jail to rehabilitate them. You know you can’t do those kind of things by yourself. But he said that if– if Ruth would get involved in good causes, I mean not, uh, even ours, but he– he would be really glad to hear about it, you know, he’d be glad to hear whatever she’s doing, if she– if she’s doing something, you know, really productive, it doesn’t matter, you know, he was just– couldn’t believe that she, with her intelligence, she could get in that, you know–

Jeanette: She’s trying to– she’s getting out of it. (Laughs)

Linda: (laughs) I know my sister’s in that. Do you know my sister’s in that? And you know what she wrote me?

Jeanette: (laughing) What?

Linda: She wrote me a letter saying that I wasn’t born again.

Jeanette: (Laughs)

Linda: Really? (Laughs)

Jeanette: Somebody has a sense of crap, man.

Linda: I know.

Jeanette: I don’t know.

Linda: Well, the thing, Jeanette, that, I wanted to talk to you too is, uh, not because, you know, I don’t know uh, where– exactly where you’re at or anything, but I did feel that we had a good talk, you know, upstairs, before.

Jeanette: Yeah.

Linda: And I really– If you do feel that people are judging you, or, uh, hung up about something you’ve done, I mean, uh, Jim said that, uh, some of the best members he’s had have, you know, done all kinds of things in terms of, you know, relationships and stuff like that and– and uh–

Jeanette: But, you know, like, Linda, I don’t feel like I’ve done anything wrong–

Linda: (cuts in) No, it’s not a matter of doing anything wrong.

Jeanette: Like (unintelligible word under Linda) Someone who doesn’t belong in the group. You know what I’m saying.

Linda: It’s not a matter of doing anything wrong, I­– I just thought if you felt inside yourself–

Jeanette: (Cuts in) Oh no, I just have passed over the phase and realized, you know, like uh, you know, it’s– I don’t feel like that anymore.

Linda: Okay. Well, good– If you could give that message to Ruth, you know, we’d really appreciate it. Because shemight feel that w–

Child in the background: Mom.

Linda: Uh, she might have a different– being that she’s been out for some time, she might have uh, forgotten really what Jim’s character is, you know what I mean, and–

Jeanette: Yeah.

Linda: That message might help, ‘specially about the van, because, uh, she might’ve been hung up– Oh, listen, Carol wants to talk to you again. Can she– Do– Do you have–

Jeanette: Well, I also– Linda?

Linda: What?

Jeanette: Before you go.

Linda: Yeah.

Jeanette: Like uh, on that side, on your side, okay?

Linda: Yeah.

Jeanette: Like, if– you can just, you know, like be objective with Carol.

Linda: Sure. Really.

Jeanette: You know what I’m saying?

Linda: Yeah.

Jeanette: Like, be honest with her and like, uh, like, you know, don’t give her, you know like, any like, garbage about, like, you know.

Linda: About you and stuff.

Jeanette: Yeah, about me.

Linda: Oh, man.

Jeanette: Tell her the truth, you know whatever–

Linda: (cuts in) Oh, I swear, listen–

Jeanette: (Cuts in) Let her make up her own mind.

Linda: I mean– Really, uh– Jim mentioned to her too that he felt you had character. Nobody is trying to– to talk to her against you, because we don’t want to have– We– Jim said that he felt it was important to Carol to have contact with– with you guys, and, you know, get together with, uh, with you. And he’s sorry even that– that, uh, there’s uh, a bridge with– with Ruth. You know what I mean. He would like Carol to be able to be uh, have contact with both you and Ruth, you know what I’m t–

Jeanette: (Cuts in) She has enough conflicts as it is–

Linda: (cuts in) Right, the only thing Penny felt was that– Penny wanted uh, uh– felt that Carol was better off in Redwood Valley in terms of school.

Jeanette: Oh, do you– do you know what she did?

Linda: What?

Jeanette: Penny? She barged in my apartment at four o’clock in the morning and went searching through my apartment.

Linda: Well–

Jeanette: That woman is insane. You know, and like, if she’d just leave me alone, you know, that would solve a lot of problems. You know, and like, what she does, she’s an alarmist. And she uh, you know– It distorts things a hundred times its size. And like, you know, the whole thing was, like,  she was attacking everything. You know, whatever we said about anything. You know, I– I–

Linda: Well, I think it’s upsetting– one thing that I feel is that, is that it’s upsetting to her that you’re leav– that you aren’t coming, right? Okay, and– and, that’s one thing. I mean, I don’t think we can make Penny not be upset. And when– when uh, you know– Jim has not talked to Ruth about Penny. And, uh, Ruth said that, and– and, you know how–

Jeanette: (Cuts in) No, no, she didn’t say that.

Linda: Well, I thought sh– that that it was said that, that, sh– Jim had talked to Ruth. And if Jim has talked, I’m sure Jim’s maybe made comments to you, but he’s always said things that he’s t– told Penny face to face, and he’s always said that she had character.

Jeanette: Oh, I’ve never confided in her anything that he’s said to me about her.

Linda: But he’s– he’s always uh, said things to her face. I mean he’s told her she’s an alarmist, he’s told her all these things, you know. The thing that maybe you don’t know about is, when she came back, somebody at the church wouldn’t talk to her or something and, with that situation– and, you know, in the past she had suicidal tendencies. She says she would not do anything now at all.

Jeanette: Mm-hmm.

Linda: But she did, and you– you know, it did upset her that– uh, that it was said to her and– and uh, you know, I mean, she’s been– she has been through a lot.

Jeanette: Well, it’s sort of in a state of emotional– like, she was– (unintelligible word) was extremely emotional at that time.

Linda: Yeah.

Jeanette: With Penny coming in and then saying that to her. And like, when I look at you, you wan– you– I– I want to vomit.

Linda: Mm-hmm.

Jeanette: You know, and saying these things like–

Linda: Well, that’s why–

Jeanette: (Cuts in) She wanted to attack her back–

Linda: I know.

Jeanette: I just said, hey, now, just don’t say anything.

Linda: (chuckles) I know. Well, that’s why Jim wanted to, you know, give you this message, because uh, he– uh, he understands that, uh, that– you know, he wanted to come across the way he felt. You know what I’m saying? I think the problem is you can’t judge the whole what– church by what Penny says in terms of that, it’s– she usually gets upset. You know what I’m saying?

Jeanette: (unintelligible word)

Linda: But you can’t assume that what she says, she was sent to say or anything like that, ‘cause, you know, that’s not true, you know?

Jeanette: Yeah.

Linda: I mean, ‘cause, uh, I know uh, everybody wants Penny to be objective and stuff like that, but see, she– she’s involved in this personally, and so, uh, it’s a little difficult to, you know– But she does, she does try to stand up for things, and– and it does upset her that, that Ruth left and then it’s– it is upsetting her that you, aren’t, you know, involved, it really is because, as– the more you see what’s going on in the news and stuff, it’s not a matter that you’re here because you’re happy or something. ‘Cause nobody’s happy– it’s just that people realize that, that if we’re gonna do anything for, for, ‘specially minority people and we all are minority, and we will be because, if we’ve ever been involved, we’ll be considered, you know, as–

Jeanette: (Cuts in) I never saw myself– You know, I look that– back at it, Linda, okay? And I kinda look at it, and like, I don’t see myself ever, as really helping, you know.

Linda: Oh bull!

Jeanette: Anybody is like, you know, immediately–

Linda: You– that’s– you– that’s, again, where I don’t think you see enough faith in you because, uh, Jim wanted you on counsel, and he trusted that you had strength. And he had a lot of faith in you, and you don’t see that– I don’t think you believe that. That’s what I don’t think. I don’t think you believe that, and I think that’s the problem. And I think that, because you were going to school, you couldn’t do all that you wanted to, either, and a lot of people, Russell and different ones have to concentrate on school, you know? Larry Schacht isn’t even around ‘cause he’s gotta concentrate on school, you know? And maybe you’re too presumpt– uh, trying to do something, you know, right now when you were preparing, man, you– you got so useful. I– I– it seemed to me that when you started coming to the church, and got involved, you got to be a good student, and that you had– got a maturity, you know, about you. I don’t know what you did before you came to church, but I gathered you weren’t that successful in terms of completing (unintelligible word)  career and stuff, right? And it seemed to me that if you had just– that if you– whatever you’re doing now, that Jim didn’t seem bothered because he– he said to you that he’d be glad to, you know, sign the marriage thing, you know. So uh, you may feel that there’s a guilt on you because you married someone but, uh, uh, uh, Jim didn’t feel that you should feel guilty about that. The– the only thing is that you’re– that you didn’t feel useful, you just didn’t give yourself enough time. We’re all so impatient, you know, ‘cause you’re studying, you know, and you’re preparing yourself in a field that you could help people of all races, and p– people in poverty situations. And I know– uh, my feeling about this is there’ll come a time when you will, you know, want to, whether it’s now or later, when you’ll see, you know– I think the emergencies are coming closer, but I– I think that uh, we haven’t quite had to face the total emergency situation, you know what I’m saying?

Jeanette: Mm-hmm.

Linda: But that, I think as you see more and more things happen, you want to uh, help, you know. And that you should– You know, even if you need to take time, Jim can understand that, if you need to take time to do whatever you need to do, you know. Not that you couldn’t do it and still be in the group, you know.

Jeanette: Well, it’s not that uh, you know, I’m any less of a person ‘cause I’m not in the group because I feel like, you know, I need to help in everyday life.

Linda: Like what? What can you do?

Jeanette: (unintelligible under Linda)– individual needs.

Linda: (Cuts in) Yeah, but individual– If things get really bad, what individual thing is gonna do–

Jeanette: Look, what– what can we do on an organizational basis?

Linda: Well, I mean just the fact that, if someone– When you go in– into a courtroom and somebody needs to be rehabilitated, one individual can’t do that kind of thing.

Jeanette: Uh, okay, I realize that.

Linda: You know.

Jeanette: But like, on a, uh, like, politically, you know, our group. Peoples Temple. What can we do?

Linda: Well, what can you do?

Jeanette: Huh?

Linda: By yourself, what can you do bes–

Jeanette: (cuts in) I know, but I’m not asking that. Why aren’t– why don’t you answer my question?

Linda: Well–

Jeanette: You know like, uh, I– I’ve been thinking about it, like, as far as politics is concerned, Jim’s smart enough to get into politics.

Linda: Well, what do you mean, what– Run for office, you mean?

Jeanette: Yeah, run for office and do something, on a– more on a national basis. You see what I’m saying?

Linda: Well, maybe you could suggest that to him–

Jeanette: I– You know, I think that he’s a really smart guy. And I think that, you know, he has more, uh, you know, intelligence to run like, uh, on a political office than on a religious sense. You know, to run–

Linda: (cuts in) And you think that he could–

Jeanette: (unintelligible word under Linda) for other– for other people. You know, for everyone, like, work within the system.

Linda: But look what happened to Martin Luther King.

Jeanette: I know, but would that be–

Linda: Look what happened to–

Jeanette: (unintelligible under Linda) that’s the chance we have to take.

Linda: Yeah, well, you wa– you want–

Jeanette: You see what I’m saying?

Linda: Do you think you–

Jeanette: You know somewhere–

Linda: You want to take a chance right now?

Jeanette: Huh?

Linda: I mean do you want that to happen right this minute? I mean it would happen immediately–

Jeanette: Oh, I’m not– I’m not– I’m not insinuating him, you know, to be assassinated.

Linda: He’d be glad to, I’m sure. He would be glad to, I mean, it would be the end of his troubles–

Jeanette: You’re distorting what I just said. I’m not– I’m not saying that, for him to do it and get assassinated right now.

Linda: Yeah.

Jeanette: I’m not saying that.

Linda: But there’s such an atmosphere of hate, though —

Jeanette: (unintelligible under Linda) But he’s smart enough to get involved in– look it, you know, all the other– (unintelligible word) like, run for an office. Run for, you know–

Linda: Sure.

Jeanette: For representative.

Linda: But there’s such an atmosphere of hate, Jeanette. It seems to me that that’s kind of romantic notion.

Jeanette: What do you mean, romantic?

Linda: Well, there’s such an atmosphere of hate, that, I mean, it seems to me that if, what happened in Boston or San Francisco, and stuff like that– that it’s kind, that, that it’s kind of uh–

Jeanette: I know, but if he shows his character, you know, he says he has this– his character, I see his character. If he shows his character m– more.

Linda: (speaks over Jeanette) You don’t think he’s doing as much now?

Jeanette: (unintelligible under Linda) –besides just the black people– you– you know, at the Temple. But show them other phases. Like when a time does occur, there’re people are gonna say, hey, this guy has character. They’re not gonna, you know, just uh, just go ahead and shoot him or something.

Linda: You think people would elect uh, someone like uh, Jim?

Jeanette: Huh?

Linda: You feel people would elect–

Jeanette: I think that if, you know, if he changes strategy, I think they would. I would, and I know other people would.

Linda: Well, I mean, I know, he– he’s, uh– there’s no reason why they wouldn’t. But the thing is, if we’re in a time that–

Jeanette: I mean like, (unintelligible word) we use it– we use other things, like, you know, uh, you know, to not completely say that we’re socialist, or believe in– in that thought. Like you know, we use religion. Like he could use, uh, uh, uh, you know, being liberal, and then bring in other things. Do you see what I’m saying?

Linda: Well, why don’t you tell him this?

Jeanette: Huh?

Linda: Well, why don’t you– have you told him you felt this way? Have you discussed this with him?

Jeanette: In a sort of a way, I have.

Linda: Well, maybe, I mean maybe he’d appreciate, you know, your telling him this.

Jeanette: Well, you know, I just– I just feel like he has a lot– enough character, enough intelligence to run and get more support than what he’s got now.

Linda: Well, why don’t you– the thing is again, if you feel that way, wouldn’t you still want to be behind him?

Jeanette: Yeah, I would.

Linda: Yeah, but only if he runs for office?

Jeanette: No, not for that. I still support him. I still believe in it.

Linda: But do you think– You seem to feel–

Jeanette: (cuts Linda off) I still believe I’m a socialist.

Linda: Okay. Okay, but–

Jeanette: Doesn’t make me any less a person, ‘cause I’m not immediately involved in that. I can’t (unintelligible word)–

Linda: But how do you–

Jeanette: Going to that Temple down here —

End of side 1


Side 2

Linda: –knew him, because the trouble is that people who have criticisms feel scared or something of saying, you know, what they feel, or if you feel that he should take a different tact on– I think he’s weighed all these things. I frankly believe he’s– you know, weighed all these things and that he’s doing the most courageous thing, because I know he’s not afraid of anything.

Jeanette: No, I– I agree with that.

Linda: You know. But the thing is I think he’s weighed these things and he probably could– could explain why, or, you know, he’s doing what he’s doing, and I think he’d be glad to go any– anything that would help mankind. I think there’s reasons that– you know, for doing certain things at certain times and stuff like that, for the benefit of the most– to most– benefit to the most people, you know.

Jeanette: Yeah, but do you see my point?

Linda: Yeah.

Jeanette: Do you– I mean, I don’t– I don’t know if you agree with it or not.

Linda: The only thing– The only thing is that I don’t know that everybody who runs for office does as much– uh, that much for mankind. Because I don’t–

Jeanette: I think– I think they’re making an effort. All right. I don’t agree with a lot of them. A lot of them are in it for the money and the prestige. But you know, there’s– there’re new characters have to come in.

Linda: Yeah, but what–

Jeanette: (unintelligible under Linda) –and showing them– (unintelligible)

Linda: I’ve never seen anyone in office that’s done as much as Jim without office. (short laugh) I’ve never seen anyone who’s– who’s– who’s brought people the, uh, to the sensitivities or put as much effort. If he had to go campaigning and all that he’d have to do, and he’d have to have millions of dollars behind him, because you can’t win without money.

Jeanette: Oh, I definitely agree with that.

Linda: And he’d have to court– in order to get millions of dollars, he’d have to court people that he would have to compromise his views.

Jeanette: Sure, he would. I mean, he would have, you know, kiss ass in some ways, like we– you know, we have to kiss ass, you know, with the Disciples of Christ. You know.

Linda: But he doesn’t kiss ass. He’s telled them– he’s told them just where he stands. And they resent him.

Jeanette: Right, well, in some places, like now, we’re just, you know– sometimes you just have to tell them where you stand.

Linda: Mm-hmm. Well, the– the only thing is, I think you should tell him. I– I frankly feel that he’d like to hear what you feel about that, but I mean I’m not saying you have to come and talk to him. The only thing is that–

Jeanette: No, I will come and talk to him. I– I will. You know, like, I’m not uptight about not coming to talk to him about it, because I will. In fact, I can come next week and talk about it.

Linda: Good, that’d be good. Uh, and uh– The only thing I feel, you know, I just haven’t found– I mean, you’ve said that you could do something individually. I find that– that I’m–

Jeanette: I don’t mean on a massive scale. I mean in like everyday practice.

Linda: Yeah, but–

Jeanette: Like you know, like, if I work– I work at a hospital. And like, I do more work than any other nurses aide there. Because I care about those people.

Linda: I’m sure. I know, I’m sure you do. I believe it.

Jeanette: I’m just saying like in– you know, in everyday practice.

Linda: Mm-hmm. Uh, I mean I’m a social worker and I know what you mean, ‘cause I try to do the same.

Jeanette: Do you see what I’m saying?

Linda: But I notice that, for all the little kindnesses I do, people go back in the same deprivation, the same, uh, uh, confusion, the same insanity. I may get my ego built up to think I do something.

Jeanette: Yeah.

Linda: But really, Jeanette, if you face it, they go back into the same insanity. The same persecutions. And what does your kindness mean, you know? Can you change– do you– can you change their housing, can you change the fact that their babies may never get a proper education or–

Jeanette: It’s a process. This– you know like, this– that you know, like, here in the United States, you– you know, it’s gonna take a while, I think.

Linda: Yeah, but–

Jeanette: I don’t think it’s gonna be in like next year or three or four–

Linda: I don’t either.

Jeanette: I think it’s gonna be a long time.

Linda: But the Temple has been able to educate people on a large scale, or help, uh, people on the large scale.

Jeanette: Oh, I agree.

Linda: Yeah.

Jeanette: On a large, you know, uh– you know, in a large scale in comparison to small groups, yeah.

Linda: Or, in a comparison, like, with an individual thing. I mean, like, on your own– You know what frustrates me as a social worker. After a while, seeing person after person, and case after case that I realize I can do nothing for, it makes me feel a terrible pain, you know. And I think that after a while, what you’ll feel is desperation, because, you know, with the economic situation, it’s gonna get so bad–

Jeanette: Oh, I know it is.

Linda: You know what I mean?

Jeanette: Yeah.

Linda: And, what I think is you’re gonna want to have com– uh, camaraderie with other people who are struggling with the problem.

Jeanette: Oh, yeah.

Linda: –and you’re gonna be lonely, because out there, if you try to do as much as you can, and not get bitter, some people can’t do anything and they get bitter, you know what I mean? But if you really keep trying, which I believe you will, I think you’re gonna feel uh, uh, desperate, after a while, because you can do very little. And if you think about all that Jim has planned, you know, for people, uh, a place of refuge and stuff like that, it’s so beautiful, that–

Jeanette: Yeah, but, how many– how many people are gonna be– Linda, you know, like, basically how many people–

Linda: Thousands.

Jeanette: –are gonna be able to go there?

Linda: Anyone who wants to. Anyone who wants to.

Jeanette: Huh?

Linda: Anybody who wants to. He has gone–

Jeanette: Are you for– are you for real? I mean like–

Linda: Yeah. No, for sure.

Jeanette: I thought it was only like a few people gonna go over there.

Linda: No, no, he said that– he said that anyone who wants to go. But he said many people may not leave– be willing to go because they’re too hung up on, you know what I mean–

Jeanette: What about like right now? Who– Who can go right now?

Linda: Anybody who wants to. Thousands.

Jeanette: If I wanted to go right now, I can go over there and work now?

Linda: Sure. I’m sure you could. The thing is that, uh, do you mean right this minute?

Jeanette: I mean go over there and work.

Linda: You want to go right now?

Jeanette: I mean I wouldn’t mind going over there and working.

Linda: Well, I think people have tried to– uh, I mean like I wouldn’t ask to go right now because I don’t see what the need of me being there is, when there– they need primarily physical workers. I mean, I’m sure he’d let me if I wanted to, but I would never think of asking because there’s no– I mean, my life isn’t in danger right now. And primarily, uh, that’s the reason. I mean, if you wanted to go, we could ask him.

Jeanette: Yeah.

Linda: But I don’t think he’d stop you, if that, you know–

Jeanette: No, I’m just saying that, you know– but you know– But (unintelligible word) can’t.

Linda: Yeah, you could, if you wanted to, but– but I don’t think we do things on the basis of want, you know, selfish want or anything.

Jeanette: No, I’m not saying it’s selfish want.

Linda: But if you had to, or if there– I mean, the whole thing is that you know it’s being, uh, there’s– uh, all the work that’s going into that is not for nothin’, I mean it’s not for Jim, because he doesn’t care whether he lives or dies, and he doesn’t even, uh, count on, you know, seeing a future for himself.

Jeanette: (unintelligible)

Linda: You know that.

Jeanette: Yeah.

Linda: And– and the thing is that– I mean it seems to me, anyone who would spend so much of his time building uh, uh, uh, hope for people. I mean, ‘cause, uh, being a politician, I just don’t think he’d be able to, uh, you know, devote his time to the people. You know. Right now.

Jeanette: I think he’d be good at it.

Linda: Be good at it, he would. He’d be tremendous, but he’d–

Jeanette: (unintelligible under Linda)

Linda: He would not be able to help people because he’d be so busy politicking and then after, you don’t just end–

Jeanette: Oh, I know that.

Linda: –winning an office. Because I’ve never– I just don’t see that, that there’s that much that can be done in that.

Jeanette: But the way to do it is, like, you know, like, right now, there’s this– I don’t think there’s any chance of revolution in this country right now.

Linda: Well, we’re not asking for that.

Jeanette: Huh?

Linda: We’re not asking for that.

Jeanette: I know. But that’s– Oh, Linda, you know that, you know like, we’re gonna do this, like, that you know, like the way we think, you know, in socialism, to have a massive revolution.

Linda: You feel–

Jeanette: (unintelligible under Linda) we bring, you know, like, the only way he’s gonna do it is by, like, talking to the people who are in charge and manipulating them to see his point of view.

Linda: You feel that way. That’s your feeling?

Jeanette: Huh?

Linda: That’s your feeling that the–

Jeanette: Well, and talk to the masses and let them speak, let them choose what they want.

Linda: Well, I mean–

Jeanette: And make Jim the leader.

Linda: You– I mean, I think you– you know, have your own views of how, you know, things are gonna go.

Jeanette: Well, I don’t know.

Linda: But I think, you know, I’m sure he’d be glad to hear what you have to say.

Jeanette: Yeah, well–

Linda: But I’m sure he’s, you know, thought of all alternatives, you know. And he’s been–

Jeanette: Uh-huh. Well, then, he probably wouldn’t be interested in what I have to say.

Linda: Yeah, he would because, uh, I think it–

Jeanette: Well, I wouldn’t be saying anything new. (chuckles)

Linda: Well, no, I mean, maybe you would. You know maybe– maybe he would, you know, or the dialogue is important ‘cause uh, he does– he cares about you.

Jeanette: You know, I don’t have anything against him. I don’t have anything against you.

Linda: Well, I didn’t think you would, you know.

Jeanette: I mean I don’t have, but I– I am pissed off, you know– like, the only thing is, I really liked it up north. I don’t like it down here.

Linda: In S– In– Well, maybe that could be–

Jeanette: I don’t like it. (unintelligible sentence under Linda)

Linda: You mean in San Francisco, or in Redwood Valley?

Jeanette: You know, in San Francisco and Redwood Valley.

Linda: Well, maybe you should–

Jeanette: I don’t like how these people here, they completely distort the whole thing.

Linda: Well, it is harder down here. It is harder down here. Maybe you ought– would you be interested in moving back up to the–

Jeanette: Not until I get done with school. I graduate in a year.

Linda: Oh. Well, would you be interested in doing that?

Jeanette: I don’t know, maybe in a year, I don’t know. (laughs)

Linda: (laughs) I mean, I could understand that, you know. I could really understand that, ‘cause, I mean, it’s just– I’m sure it’s more frustrating down here for you, you know. I don’t think– I think Jim is certainly– I mean if you–

Jeanette: I was phoning continuously.

Linda: I know, I– I’m sure Jim is uh– would be very compassionate to– to your, you know, uh, thing there, I mean, he– he really does care, uh, he really cares that people, you know, uh, uh, have lives that they– that where they can feel meaningful, you know what I mean?

Jeanette: Mm-hmm.

Linda: It uh, uh– Even though what I said is, you know, that we don’t– it’s not just a matter of desires, he– he doescare that people operate in a place where they can work right, you know?

Jeanette: Yeah.

Linda: And– and uh, he– he– uh, he is– he has felt– he’s felt confidence in you and trust in you and, uh, you’ve got a lot of capabilities, I bet you’re a fantastic nurse. But I do feel that, if you hadn’t come to the church, that you might not’ve even found that profession.

Jeanette: Mm-hmm.

Linda: Isn’t that true?

Jeanette: Possibly.

Linda: You know? I mean, it– well, if I weigh my life and how chaotic it was before I came the church, you know, I know I wouldn’t have been a social worker.

Jeanette: Yeah.

Linda: And uh, everything I’ve learned, you know, really about caring for people has been from Jim’s example, you know?

Jeanette: Mm-hmm.

Linda: And uh– So when you’re saying doing it individually, uh, in a way even that, you’re not doing it individually, ‘cause I’m sure that, what you’ve seen here, you know– You may have seen, uh, people, you know, of all kinds here, we’ve got so many. But still, I mean, there’ve been enough principled people I’m sure that, you know– We’ve all affected each other’s lives, and Jim’s been, uh, you know–

Jeanette: Well, I think one of the hard– one of the– another ques– another thing that, you know, like, I’ve told Jim this, that I don’t care about the healings. You know, those things, you know, it doesn’t even turn me on or anything. You know, I– and like, as far as like re-incarnation, like, I don’t– I don’t believe in that either. I don’t believe in, I– I– you know, I just, you know, like as far as like evolution and different things are concerned, I believe in that. It’s scientific. But I don’t believe in like, you know, these things. I just care about like, the basic humanitarian things for people. And I can see that in Jim.

Linda: Well, you can believe in that.

Jeanette: You see what I’m saying?

Linda: Yeah.

Jeanette: And like– like all– like, for so long, I used to say how I felt, like when I was at the dorm. I was persecutedin those fucking dorms. Like when I say I don’t agree with that. Just because I didn’t agree with what Jim said. You see what I’m saying?

Linda: Well, it really isn’t a good idea to say that, you know. It isn’t a good idea to say that, because, other people have seen things that are–

Jeanette: Oh, I know, but they are not coming to that (unintelligible word)–

Linda: Why would you need to say it to other people?

Jeanette: –even that, you know, like re-incarnation.

Linda: Well, why would you have to say that to other people, though?

Jeanette: Huh?

Linda: Why would you have to say it to other people?

Jeanette: Like you know, when people be going on and on, I say hey, you know like, instead of maybe they get off into a trip about like talking about just getting involved in the healings or just getting involved in re-incarnation. And they miss the whole point.

Linda: Okay, but the thing is, uh– It’s meaningful–

Jeanette: I say, hey, you’re missing the whole point, why do you believe in that? And so like what– what– what happens? You mean– They say, what do you mean? You don’t believe in it? And so what I don’t– I don’t– I keep it inside of me, I don’t say it, I say nothing. And why? If I say it, I won’t be accepted.

Linda: But– Yeah– Well, I think you should say what you feel to– to Jim and to people, you know, who–

Jeanette: I mean, I’ll say it to you, but I couldn’t ever say it to like– I couldn’t say it to anybody else. I could say it to staff and him. That’s why I wanted to talk to staff last week.

Linda: Yeah, right. I didn’t know that. I mean did you–

Jeanette: Yeah, I called there and I was told Christine was gonna come and then I called back after–

Linda: Oh wow.

Jeanette: ‘Cause I wanted to get everything, what I was gonna say together.

Linda: Yeah.

Jeanette: Then come down and discuss it with him.

Linda: Mm-hmm. (Pause) Well, I’m glad we got a chance to talk, that’s for sure. Uh–

Jeanette: Do you see why– I mean, like, any of my points. Like, you may not agree with them, you may not think they’re valid, but at least I want you to understand like at least what I’m sayin’, and then maybe you can tell Jim too.

Linda: Sure.

Jeanette: And I’ll come up next week and tell him.

Linda: Okay. Uh, you mean no–

Jeanette: I mean I’m not gonna go in, like, tell everybody what I think. You know, because I’m not gonna put it down.

Linda: Yeah, because, it is a real thing.

Jeanette: He has a method of a way– uh, doing things the way he wants to do ‘em.

Linda: Mm-hmm. He has–

Jeanette: He has his method of doing what he wants to do.

Linda: The– the thing is sometimes I think that you don’t under– that some people don’t understand that what he does is uh– I mean, like, if he sees people get off death row and stuff, I mean. You– It– it’s so connected to his–

Jeanette: I admire that, I really do, I admire that. I’m not putting that down. I admire that in him. I really do.

Linda: Yeah.

Jeanette: I’ve always admired him.

Linda: And, you know one– one thing I noticed. When I was, uh– before I came to church, I was an intellectual and I thought, you know, we just talked reality and stuff like that and, you know what I’m saying? That we didn’t deal with uh, uh, people who didn’t talk the same language, and we thought we were so hip, and so, you know, but

Jeanette: Yeah.

Linda: I think the thing that’s so beautiful about Jim is that he reaches to people, all people, you know, and– and you– in– in a way, it seems like you’re judging people who have true faith, you know, ‘cause– ‘cause they’re not as intellectual as you. And in a way that’s kind of, I– I mean I was–

Jeanette: Being prejudiced?

Linda: Yeah. Because, uh, it’s an assumption that everyone, uh, has the same orientation than you do.

Jeanette: Oh, yeah. Well, I see your point. Good. I’m going to be defensive. (chuckles).

Linda: Go ahead.

Jeanette: Like, uh, I see your point, but there’s like intellectual people on that council in L.A., here. Okay? And like, like, instead of like, uh, them looking at it rationally, they wanted to, to continue to believe in a God, but replacing Jim as God. You see what I’m saying?

Linda: Well, the– the only thing is that, uh, Jim certainly does not uh, imply he– I mean, if you hear his discussions, he tears that, you know, I mean– If people– What you’re saying though is people are not all perfect, you know, and even if–

Jeanette: Oh, and I’m not, either. God. Nobody is.

Linda: Okay, but see, your imperfections may be in another area. But Jim certainly does not present– I mean, he doesn’t stand up there like like, uh, a holy spiritual fly– you know, uh, you know what I’m saying? And so, uh, you– if– any place you go, people have different illusions and stuff like that, and he doesn’t foster them in any way, and there’re a lot of people that aren’t, uh, uh, there that don’t believe in illusions. Although I– I– I do say there’s a– you know, uh, like Lovie De Pina and stuff like that, that– that is pretty, you know, miraculous, I mean there’s no way other– else to explain it. There’s something paranormal. You know what I’m saying? You know what I’m saying?

Jeanette: Yeah, I understand, but I don’t agree with paranormal.

Linda: Huh?

Jeanette: I don’t agree with paranormal. But I mean, I agree with what you’re (unintelligible word)

Linda: Well, whatever you call it, it doesn’t matter what you think about it, ‘cause I mean, if you– if you were– you know, if– if people wanna, if people serve, uh, humanity, it doesn’t matter, you know, what you think about it. But I’m just saying that, you know, I mean, I can’t deny it ‘cause I’ve just seen it, but I– it’s not the basis of my, you know, commitment, you know?

Jeanette: Yeah.

Linda: Uh, and– and– and I don’t, uh– It’s not a matter of people needing that, it’s just that, if you’ve seen somebody like Lovie, who– who, uh, something happened to her, you know. I know it’s meaningful to her, you know.

Jeanette: Yeah, I understand that, yeah, I under– I understand your points too, I really do.

Linda: Yeah.

Jeanette: I mean, I’m just– you know, I’m just– I– I would really like, like, next week to come down and just talk about it, because like a lot of things like from the last couple weeks have really been bugging me, but I know I couldn’t say it because it wouldn’t be accepted.

Linda: Well, if you say it to all–

(Two women speak over each other)

Jeanette: I could go and talk to him.

Linda: On, I see.

Jeanette: Because like, after those first two years of the dorm, and what they put me through–

Linda: Yeah.

Jeanette: I– I– I didn’t want to trust anybody.

Linda: Uh-huh, that’s true.

Jeanette: And like, you know, I started building up a rapport with someone.

Linda: Yeah, right.

Jeanette: And like you know, I’m just gonna tell you (unintelligible word) what I’m gonna tell you, I’m gonna tell Karen and Christine and Jim.

Linda: Okay.

Jeanette: What– What my thoughts are.

Linda: Okay.

Jeanette: I mean, is that fair enough?

Linda: Sure.

Jeanette: And I’m not, you know, gonna be hostile, I’m not just gonna go out and write letters or anything else like that.

Linda: No.

Jeanette: But what I want done, too, is that I want Carol to be– you know, I don’t want you to– you know, you don’t have to tell my conversations with Carol, but I still want someone to be objective with her.

Linda: Sure. Well, I– I swear, I mean, like, nobody’s torn you down. Nobody’s torn you down to Carol. You can ask Carol, you can ask her any time. We haven’t torn you down. Uh, believe me, I mean, you can uh, ask, uh– I know Jim thinks highly of you. I do. I mean, I think.

Jeanette: (unintelligible word) You– You know, you don’t have to, ya know–

Linda: No, I wanna– I wanna–

Jeanette: Every time you go on like that, I feel like, you know, you’re just bullshitting me. (unintelligible under Linda)

Linda: (Speaks over Jeanette throughout) No, I swear, Jeanette. I swear, ‘cause after I tell you– No– No, no, listen! You’re not– No, listen, on my children’s life, I’ll tell you why. Because, when we talked upstairs, uh, I– really, when we talked upstairs, I felt, you know, that we had a rapport.

Jeanette: Um-hmm.

Linda: I swear, I mean, that’s not bullshit. You know what I mean?

Jeanette: Yeah, I felt that way too.

Linda: Yeah, I did, I mean it seemed real to me, and, uh, I– I don’t know, in myself, maybe this is an illusion, but I just can’t believe, ‘cause I know, I feel you’re sensitive. Now that may be wrong. Okay? I may be wrong about you, that could be true.

Jeanette: Yeah, okay.

Linda: I feel you’re sensitive, and I feel that you would understand, that– that, uh, for black people especially, that we, all of us, uh, you know, uh, even though we may not like it, you know, nobody says we always like, uh, uh, to do things, but that we would care enough about (sighs) working for people who were, uh, really deprived. You know?

Jeanette: Yeah, right.

Linda: And I feel that you’re that way. I think you have– I think you had it down– No matter, you know, even if you went through some times when you had– at– at the dorms when you felt alienated, that you would uh, care about, you know, black people and stuff.

Jeanette: Um-hmm.

Linda: And that, if– that– that– that you shouldn’t feel that you’re alienated, just because right now you’re not coming. You know what I’m saying?

Jeanette: Yeah.

Linda: And that, uh, nobody would, uh, ever hold it against you or anything like that, and we don’t think you’re doing–

Jeanette: Well, I know you wouldn’t, and I know a few people– (unintelligible under Linda)

Linda: And Jim–­ But Jim believes in your character.

Jeanette: But I know other people would. (Laughs)

Linda: Huh?

Jeanette: I know other people would, I know you wouldn’t, but I know other people would.

Linda: (unintelligible word) But man, you can’t base your–

Jeanette: But I don’t care about them.

Linda: Yeah, right! All right, you know. You can’t base uh, things on– on, uh, that, I mean, it, uh, but Jim– but– but Jim does believe that, that you have character, and– and he– he really does, I mean, he uh, saw that in you. You know?

Jeanette: Uh-huh.

Linda: And– and y– you– I don’t know. That’s why I was worried maybe that you had a bad self-image, because that maybe you couldn’t believe that. ‘Cause what you said right to me that– that I was bullshitting you, I swear on my children’s life, I was not bullshitting. I swear on my children’s life. You could believe that or not.

Jeanette: All right.

Linda: All right?

(Both laugh).

Linda: I really like you. And I know Jim does, and I know, uh, there’re– you know, maybe there’re a few people that like you.

(They both laugh)

Jeanette: A few.

Linda: You know– I don’t– Well, you know– I’m only saying that because you’re so dubious.

Jeanette: I’m only– I’m only teasing with you, Linda.

Linda: I know, ‘cause you’re putting me in a– in a bag there. But uh– You want me to make a list? I’ll present you with a list of how many people like you.

(Both laugh)

Jeanette: It’s cool.

Linda: Yeah. Right. Uh, well, anyway, Carol– Did you want to talk to me any further or what?

Linda: No, I’ll come in next week.

Linda: Well, Carol wants to talk to you first, though.

Jeanette: Okay.

Linda: Okay, just a minute.

Jeanette: Okay. Bye-bye Linda.

Linda: Bye.

(Pause of several minutes)

Carol: Yeah, are you gonna uh, co– ma– next, next couple weeks, so I can see you?

Jeanette: Yeah.

Carol: Okay, I also wanted to tell you, that remember when uh– remember you told me about the marijuana thing?

Jeanette: Yeah.

Carol: And you didn’t want Penny to find out–

Jeanette: Yeah.

Carol: When I talked to Jim, and I felt, you know, for (unintelligible name), I told, you know, Father.

Jeanette: Oh, that’s good.

Carol: But– But he wouldn’t tell, you know, Penny.

Jeanette: Oh, that’s all right. That’s good that you did.

Carol: And I– you know, the reason I–

Jeanette: If it really makes you feel better, that’s good.

Carol: Yeah. ‘Cause I thought it was bad, because, like if something did happen, like if– if somebody did tell on you guys that, that Hillman did have– have it, you know? That if the police did bust it or something, like he would get sent back to Persia, you know?

Jeanette: Yeah. Well, you have a good point. Yeah.

Carol: He would just– he would have that risk, you know? And you would, certainly.

Jeanette: Yeah.

Carol: For being there, for having possession of it.

Jeanette: Right. Okay. Well, you do what you want to do, you know. You make up your own mind, okay?

Carol: Okay, were you gonna go over to Grandma’s?

Jeanette: But you’re welcome here anytime you want to– (unintelligible under Carol)

Carol: Were you gonna go to Grandma’s for Christmas?

Jeanette: Huh? Yeah.

Carol: Well, we thought maybe we could all go meet at Grandma’s for Christmas.

Jeanette: Well, who?

Carol: Grandma’s? You know? Me and Mom.

Jeanette: No, we’re not– I’m not gonna go when Penny’s there.

Carol: You’re not gonna go?

Jeanette: No.

Carol: Well, if you’re not gonna go if Penny’s there, maybe I can go.

Jeanette: Yeah, well, I thought maybe if you’d like to, you can come and spend Christmas vacation with me.

Carol: Yeah, maybe so.

Jeanette: Huh?

Carol: Okay?

Jeanette: Okay, well, I’ll let you go then. (unintelligible under Carol)

Carol: Okay. You’re not gonna be here tomorrow?

Jeanette: Huh? No, I have to work tomorrow.

Carol: Okay.

Jeanette: Okay?

Carol: Okay, nice talking to you.

Jeanette: So, write me a letter.

Carol: Okay, I will.

Jeanette: Okay, bye-bye.

Carol: Okay, bye.

End of tape