Mazor speaks with Temple leaders, 9/14/78


SEPTEMBER 14, 1978 (Side #3) [Joe] Mazor, Paula [Adams], Sharon [Amos], Gene [Chaikin]

M: Our subject [Tim Stoen] went to London. You and Debbie [likely Blakey, could be Touchette] had control of a certain amount of local funds – is that correct? Approximately how much was the amount of those funds?

S: Stand by and let me think. I would have to go back in my records. I do not remember at all.

M: Can you give an approximation? Was it 5000 or more?

P:  You mean in the bank or on hand?

M: I mean on hand, over. Let me ask it this way in a different question. In any of the on-hand cash between the months of February 1977 and March 1977 come up missing? Over.

P: Well, the amount of money missing wouldn’t have paid for his charter.

M: Okay, wouldn’t have paid for any charter flight, is that correct? Over.

S: That’s a roger.

M: Okay, now at any time prior to the subject going to London, did you or Debbie cash a check for the subject for any amount of money that you can remember? Over.

P:  No, I don’t think so, but he had a peculiar habit of sleeping on his billfold which was always quite thick.

M: Okay, I copy that. Now I want to go to an entirely different area of conversation, and that is regard to the G/T [Georgetown] house. Do you copy?

P: Okay, roger, I didn’t copy, but I wanted to add that I noticed after he left the first time, what did you say after that?

M:  Okay, what I asked you was that I want to go to an entirely different subject, I want to talk about the purchase of the G/T house, is that a copy? Over.

P:  Roger.

M: All right, were there any negotiations pending on the G/T house prior to subject going to London? Over.

P: Stand by a minute, I’m not up on that, stand by.

M: Stand by.

P:  Okay, it was after, as I recall it, it was after the first trip when he came back.

M: Okay, it was after he came back that you started the negotiations on the present G/T house, is that a copy?

P:  Roger roger.

M: And therefore it was after his return to London that he met the owner of the G/T house, is that a copy?

P: That’s right.

M: Stand by.

P: And by the way, interestingly enough, after he left the second time the banker called our house from Canada asking for him. Do you copy?

M: That’s a copy. What bank was the banker connected with?

[No answer to question provided; Paula Adams speaks of Barclays bank a moment later]

M: All right, question #2. There was one piece of correspondence with the ex-owner of the residence after he moved to Canada. Do you know what that address was in Canada? Over.

P:  Stand by, we’re going to try to think of where it is.

M: Thank you very much.

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P: His name is Michael Banier, do you copy?

M: That’s a copy.

P:  You can check his background, (spelled his name) and you might be (I can’t recall his address) but if you check with Barclays they’ll probably have a forwarding address. I met his sister, but I don’t remember her address either.

M: That’s a copy. All right now – stand by for just a minute.

P:  I don’t remember her name either.

M: Who else is there with you besides Mike [likely Prokes] and yourself? Over.

P: Right now, Gene [Chaikin], Harriet [Tropp],  Terri [Buford], Mike, and we’re on the field phone with Jim.

M: Okay, put Gene on the phone.

G: Okay, go on.

M: Okay, Gene, there is that address book that Mike referred to which may be in S.F. It is imperative that the address book be located and we are sure that it’s there and not in JT or GT, is that a copy?

G: Roger.

M: There is undoubtedly a considerable amount of financial transactions which went through the bank in London which could be connected up to the names in that book. Copy.

G:  Roger roger.

M: On the basis of the information we are getting together now, I will not be leaving until Saturday and therefore, we will try and get all the rest of this cleared up before I leave. Copy.

G:  Roger roger.

M: We have no further traffic at this end, do you have any traffic.

G: Please stand by, please stand by. Oh, one thing that might be of interest. Do you copy?

M: Go.

G: In G/T we undoubtedly have a copy of the deed and it was signed by the subject banker. You might want to get a specimen signature for whatever purpose.

M: I have it in front of me. Over.

G: You’re way ahead of me, Joe.

M: I feel that I firmly believe at this point that subject left for London and since he has no available or visible funds to get to London from G/T, that subject had a small or medium bank account in Trinidad. Copy.

[No response provided]

M: Subject got additional funding from telegram of 9-day additional stay and went to London where he did additional negotiations and additional financial transactions. Copy.

G:  Roger roger, it’s feasible.

M: Subject then probably in the suitcase along with the clothes, safety deposit box keys or the safe deposit boxes which you show on your little memo without numbers. Copy.

G: Stand by. Okay, that’s what I thought. Stand by. Stand by. Stand by.

P: Joe, what we did, I never told him that it was my clothes in the suitcase, he assumed it was his and I kept it with me and never told him until the last minute because, you know, as long as I had the suitcase, he had an interest in hanging around.

M: At the time what was he doing, or what was his reaction to you when you said, hey dummy, these are my clothes in the suitcase? Over.

P: I don’t remember the exact words, but he got a very long face.

M: You gave the clothes away?

P: Roger, but he didn’t know that either.


M: But he knew that the clothes wasn’t his, didn’t he?

P: Yes, when we finally told him.

M: Okay.

G: Joe, can you hear me, do you copy, Joe?

M: Yes, just a minute though.

G: By the way, at one time we gave him 5 grand because we thought he was destitute and that might help our situation some and then after that he called and asked us for the suitcase and the clothes back, as a matter of fact, he threatened us somewhat about it.

M: I’d threaten you too, he had his goddamned safe deposit key coming in the damn things, over.

G: That’s a theory, but I don’t know because it might be, but I’m not so sure.

M: Did you turn the suitcase over?

G: We sure as hell can look for it.

M: Of course, Gene, the pen goes down like this. Your goes down like this, your boy has the money he took over there, he’s been dealing with bankers, he was short, he isn’t going to carry a key to a safe deposit around either in G/T or J/T because you people have gone through the damn things, so he leaves them. Now I don’t know who tore that suitcase apart, but unless you tore the lining out of the thing, unless you tore the lining out of the clothes, you could have missed every key there was. Over.

G:  Roger roger,  we sure weren’t that thorough.

M:  Okay. It’s nothing we can do about that, obviously he has to make the adjustment of getting new keys for the boxes, if that was the problem. Now tell me when did you give him the “$5000.”

G: Ask Charles all about that.

M: Oh, that’s long after he came back from London, you gave him that in June or July, over.

G: Yeah, yeah, that’s right.

M: Don’t confuse me with fact.

G: Roger. We may have the suitcase around here somewhere.

M: Well, it would be nice if you did, we could take a chance that he might have stuck them in the lining and you people have been running around with him. My impression is that your little square box that put on that note that you have there, written by him, is probably that he didn’t have the number but he had the key.

G: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, that’s probably true. One of the things that bothers us, after the deal with the Canadian was long over and was long forgotten and the bankers then moved to Canada. He was still trying to reach the subject.

M: Now while we were trying to reach the subject, the subject and the banker had gone together when they left here and the subject had gone off to Trinidad. Isn’t that correct, over.

G: Stand by. We don’t know but the telephone we’re talking  is about the phone call the banker made long, long, long after when the banker by that time had left. He sold his house because he was moving his position and taking another position with the bank and it was after he got to Canada that he put

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the phone call back through the subject. Do you copy?

M: I copy, my understanding of the situation is that the banker and the subject both left G/T together, the banker went to Canada and he got off at Trinidad.

G:  Roger roger, that should be verifiable through government records, you know.

M: That’s a 104, but if that’s the case then that means that the subject and the banker split up at Trinidad and there is no reason to believe that the banker didn’t know that the subject had no plans of coming back to G/T. Copy.

P: This is Paula again, one thing I recall is that it was not that long after he left that he called back down and it could have been to throw us off, I mean he could have been there with them.

M: Well, our information is that when he set up the Myrtle [Mertle] home in December or January 1978 he had come into the US through Canada. Over.

P: That’s interesting. He took down the name of the brother of the manager of the bank. He took down the name of the brother who is also involved in banking – I believe – and what you say sounds reasonable.

M:  I don’t think we have anything else here today. Does anybody there have any more information that we don’t have to drag out of you by tooth and nail and that you’ve been thinking about while everyone else was talking. Over.

P: Let’s think for a second here, and we’ll hunt that suitcase down. We think we still have the suitcase because after giving him the $5000, we’d be damned if we were going to give him the suitcase back with all those clothes.

M: That’s right around socialistic.

G: The problem with the subject is that all the sharing was going in the wrong direction, brother.

P: Somebody here says they remember that at one time he claimed that he had put all of his money, put all of his money into the church, but we checked it out, but it was a lie, it couldn’t have been the case, could not have been the case at all absolutely.

M:  Repeat that again.

P: Someone here recalled that he claimed very piously that he had put all of his money into the church, but we checked it out and that was impossible, he did not. It was an absolute lie, but obviously he was trying to make us feel that way, that he had no other income.

M: Well, that we know was a fairy story, so see if we can find anything else that has a matter of truth between all of you brilliant people. Over.

G: One more point, at one point I think we located an account of his in a bank in Colorado near where his parents live. I think the point there was that his father was holding some money for him.

M: Where do his parents live and what are their names and do you have an address, and if you don’t, where can we get it? Over.

P: Stand by. SF has it definitely, SF would have it.

M: Who has the bank account, SF too? Over.


P: Gene [Jean] Brown should have a letter from them about the bank account.

M: That’s 104. Anyone else have anything.

P: Yes, I was just thinking about what he said when I met him. I’m pretty sure it was okay you’ve found me, something like that. I’m sure he said something to the effect, get it over with, get it over with.

M: What did he expect you to do, pull your gun and shoot him?

P:  I don’t know what he thought, but I just remembered his composure, he just turned white. He’s obviously a man who had done something very wrong.

M: Roger roger,  hard to look at.

P: Well–

M: Keep on broadcasting. You don’t know what investigations are.

S: Somebody here remembers that one time back when he was still working in S.F. in his office, a tape recorder, a tape recorder disappeared and he had claimed he never owned one, but a tape recorder had disappeared, and he was very, very, very nervous about it, he was really upset about it.

M: While the papers are at it, he stole it or had a good tape on it or it was from his boyfriend and he didn’t want anyone else to hear it. Over.

[Unknown speaker]: Roger roger.

M: Okay, I think that’s it from here at least for tonight, but please pass the word to all the people who are in the command position over there, pass the word tonight and tomorrow morning for everybody to think. I’m leaving tomorrow evening, I want to go back with as much material as I can possibly have, I’m going to have to try every one of these bank accounts, and by the looks of it, he’s got bank accounts in every country in the world. Now please, everything you can think of about his movements in January, February, March 1977. Is that a copy?

S: Roger roger, and I have some notes here in his handwriting and we’ll go through and Jim says thank you very much for your thoroughness, he appreciates it very, very much.

M: If you like my sarcasm as much as my thoroughness, we’ll get along just fine.

S: Roger roger, you’re okay.

M: We have no more traffic on this end, you’re clear.

S: Negative, negative. Jim says best of love and best regards, take care of yourself, he says.

M: Tell him I get 10% on everything I recover.

S: That’s all right with us, that’s all right with us. Jim says no complaints.

M: We’ll talk tomorrow, we’ll talk tomorrow.

M: If you have any other info, let us know.

End of tape