[Editor’s note: This tape was transcribed with loose punctuation and spelling, and has been edited for clarity.
[There are five people who participate in this ham radio conversation: Joe Mazor (M); Gene Chaikin (G); Jim Jones (J); Mike Prokes (P); and – briefly – someone identified only as “S.” It is likely the unidentified person is Sandy Bradshaw, although it could be Harriet Sarah Tropp.]
MAZOR INTERVIEW: TAPE 1 SIDE 1 (Gene Chaikin & Mazor & Jim Jones Radio Tape) September 14, 1978
M: Gene question? How did you order the two trucks which you purchased from London, and who did the ordering when?
G: I was there, I suppose I’d have to look at my passport but about February of ‘76, I ordered them, we sent the deposit from the States and ultimately bought the British pounds in the States and sent them over.
M: Okay, did at any time our friendly attorney [Tim Stoen] go over to London to do any purchasing or anything connected with those vehicles?
G: Not to my knowledge, he did not.
M: Did he to your knowledge or to Jim’s knowledge go over there on any other business venture?
G: Roger, roger, roger.
J: Oh yes indeed, he went over there and some of our people wanted to see why he went over there and they dropped by and they saw him pass something, what was it, a letter to a bank, wasn’t it–
[unknown speaker]: No–
J: Well, he passed the letter to somebody, he sure did. Yes, he went to London, I don’t know what for, but he did, over.
M: Okay, but you people did not send him there on any business, is that correct, over.
G: Roger, roger, roger, we did not send him there on any business, over.
M: That’s a 104, thank you very much, hold on a minute.
G: Yeah, I want to talk to you too for second, Joe, so hold on.
M: All right, hold it. Gene, do you still copy?
G: Roger, roger.
M: Charles is sending a tape via plane tonight or tomorrow. It is our belief that the monies Stoen is using at this time and has been using were Temple funds and if there was a conspiracy, that conspiracy was really against Stoen by Grace Stoen and the Myrtles [Mertles] and ultimately the Swinneys, and all the pieces fit into line. Do you copy? Over.
G: Roger, roger, I copy. We’re looking forward very much to reading that tape.
M: We also believe that the total amount of the misappropriation was in excess of $1 million. Copy?
G: Yeah, I copy; I’ll be you-know-what.
September 14, 1978 (Side 1 continued)
M: All right, you have something for me?
G: Yeah, I was just wanting to point out, it may be needless, that you remember a year ago that among other people you met, you met a fellow by the name of Don from the Oakland area.
M: That’s a copy.
G: Roger, roger, you know who I’m talking about?
M: That’s a copy, I remember him.
G: Yeah, and do you remember the fellows he moonlights for and has for a number of years?
M: Vaguely, can you refresh my memory, over.
G: I’m sorry I’ve got the wrong name, his name is David and he used to moonlight for some folks besides his regular job and you were telling us about the moonlighting you did over the years.
M: You have got to come again, you’ve got interference.
G: Roger, roger, I had the wrong name, the fellow’s name is David – a middle-aged fellow, gray hair, kind of a thin face, David, he came from the Oakland area.
M: I vaguely remember someone, Gene, but I don’t remember where I met him.
G: Well, he was connected with the oil business.
M: Oh, that’s a roger, security on the oil rides [rigs?] in Saudi Arabia, copy?
G: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, you remember the fellows he used to moonlight for?
M: Oh, no, I don’t, I thought it was Bechtel for a minute, but I don’t think so. Over.
G: Okay, you remember, yeah, you remember Dave Kahn [Conn]?
M: Yes, I remember.
G: And you know who he used to moonlight for, he had a part-time income producing job. Right.
M: Oh God, yes, okay, got you. Danners.
G: Right, right, right, I was thinking of some of the people that he used to provide information for might be interested in this little event in Timothy’s life.
M: That’s a copy, that’s already in the tape. We would really want to be those type of people, but their money belongs to
September 14, 1978 (Side 1 continued)
M: the Temple and first-come-first-serve is an old attic [adage], he who gets up first gets down first, is that a copy?
G: That’s a big, big, big 104. Okay, well good, it’s good to hear from you. Is there anything more right now?
M: 803, 803, do you copy, 801, over.
G: Roger, roger, roger, copy, go on with your traffic.
J: Do you copy, do you copy?
M: Yeah, you copy, go ahead.
J: Okay, we just wanted to see if you did. Do you have any more traffic for us, good man?
M: Not at this time.
J: Okay, I know I’m subjective, but that one man, it looks like the one man that isn’t the biggest culprit of them all, he’s the one that I might say subjectively I have the greatest reaction to, because he’s trying to look like Mr. Clean and above everybody else, and maternalistic to all people and acting like he’s a saint, is he clean? Over.
M: No, he is not clean, he is as dirty as that.
J: I’m sorry to admit that I have such a feeling but you’re an honest man and I like that statement you gave here last night about power. I like you very much, you’re a straightforward man, and I’m sorry to say that I would like to see that man get justice. Some other questions here that Sarah wants to ask you.
M: We’re on top of someone, I think you declare frequency 6F go up 6, you copy.
S: Roger, roger, roger, 8R1, 8R1, do you copy? One thing we wanted to ask you if there’s any way that we could be of benefit to you in writing to anyone or getting any letters in on your behalf and any kind of situation that could be helpful to you in any way, let us know, okay?
M: Negative copy, that whole thing was a negative copy.
J: Do you copy, you copy?
M: You copy 104, go.
J: I know that one chap – Rock, that Rock he is a very devious person, I know that he will probably be writing letters about people who are doing good. Now I’ve made a couple of contacts as I told you with one author. I’m also a very good friend– another man’s been very friendly to us. How do I say that?
September 14, 1978 (Side 1 continued) P4
J: Who’s there with you?
M: Conner, Charles, Joe and Gloria.
J: You know that high governmental official that is coming here and been very friendly?
M: Coming soon, coming soon.
J: Well yeah, after things get settled down. He used to be on the Griffith Show, Griffith Show, does that give you– Use your thinking power there.
M: Roger, roger, roger, roger.
J: All right, now he may not be necessary – Mazor may not feel it’s necessary at all, but I thought a number of good letters from important people might just counterbalance his tactics because I know how he plays, but I don’t want to move ahead of what he would want done and that was the essence of that question. A number of well-placed letters on how proficient the man is in his business, so forth, not coming from any church, but from different people. I just wondered how he felt about that. Over.
M: Mr. #1, Mr. C and I both say keep your pen in your pocket, write no letters, have none written, let the thing at work its way out our way. There is a tape coming up on the plane for you which is urgent, requires your immediate attention and both of your ears. Over.
J: Okay, I just didn’t want him to hurt a kind man in any way and I want you to know that those connections are available if it comes to that, because I know he plays a dirty ballgame. So I’m glad to hear that you got such an interesting tape, and we’ll be looking forward to you. Over.
M: There are no kind men in this room right now, we all fight the same way he does. Have a good evening and read your tape. Over.
J: You’re a good man, I like you, take care of yourself, hope to see you again, not too long distant future. Give Charles our deep regards, because he’s another top of the morning.
M: Roger, roger, he’s out of the room, I’ll pass it on, he just walked out.
J: Will you please, please do that, give him my fondest regards. I appreciate you, you wandered onto something, eh?
September 14, 1978 (Side 1 continued) P5
J: Is that the case?
M: Roger, roger, it started just a brainstorm, it started– I wondered if–
J: Our people in London, do you copy? He had an envelope with the bank name on it, they think it’s the Royal Bank of London. They’re not sure. He passed to a clerk and said please see that this is mailed. You copy?
M: 104, you don’t have to go too much further, the Royal Bank, it happens to be part of a Canadian banking team that he is hooked up with.
J: The interesting thing, we being pacifists, it would never call for such a statement, he said one thing to us. Do you copy?
J: You caught me, why don’t you get it over with?
M: We copy, hold on a minute? Can you give us an approximate date on which he made that statement? Over.
J: [Mike] Prokes is looking.
M: And who was present when he made that statement?
J: Prokes is looking.
M: That’s a roger.
J: Strange question, because he knew our modus operandi was always peaceful, very strange response.
M: Was Sandy [Bradshaw] present when that statement was made? Over.
J: I imagine, I imagine.
J: Yes, he said she did, she heard it too, and it seemed like a very strange response.
M: Where was the statement made?
J: Heathrow Airport at the baggage collection depot.
M: That’s a roger. When he made that statement, what did Sandy or Prokes say? Over.
J: I’ll have to find out, he’s going to get the passports so we’ll know the exact date, I’ll have to wait if you can wait just a moment.
M: That’s a roger, we had suspicions and when you hear the tape, you will find that we had already suspicions that it was the Royal Bank
September 14, 1978 (Side 1 continued) P6
M: because that is the London connection to the Canadian bank. Over.
J: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and obviously he thought we knew something we didn’t know.
M: That’s a roger.
J: We also have a momentous collection that he left behind, a Royal Bank of London, and the man had no plans to ever go to London that we knew of – it has a safety deposit number. Stand by.
J: It seems like you and Charlie have been making a lot of good hay and I can tell you both you’ve made me feel better than I have for 6 months.
M: Well, we stopped fighting and started getting together, loving is better than fighting.
J: You bet your life, and it will always be that way – note made in late February 77 while in Guyana, note is Royal Bank, (I can’t read my – what does it say there) Royal Bank one change and a square – 2 safety deposit boxes, it’s outlined in a square, but there is no number, but it’s in his own– what’s that one up there – get change back. 2 p.m. change bank, and then beneath it is Royal Bank and then beneath that is Royal Bank and beneath is change. Then #2 in a square as a safety deposit box. Yeah, he claimed to me he didn’t have a penny one. You copy?
G: When he left here in Guyana in June somewhere around the 10th, 11th or 12th of 1977, you copy… He was out of our sight for 2 to 3 weeks – you copy?… I kind of suspicioned that he might have taken that time to move his nest egg out of London to someplace else in Europe. Is there someone you can follow that down?
M: Yeah, we can follow it down, now let’s go back just a minute, over. You’re talking June 1977, is that correct? Over.
[Unknown speaker] Roger.
[J:] According to the man we read to us a moment ago, we were talking early 1977 per the note, is that a roger.
G: Roger, roger, let me read back the scenario for you, copy.
September 14, 1978 (Side 1 continued) P7
J: He came down here to Guyana in February of 77–
[Unknown speaker] Roger.
J: Later that spring sometime in March – in late March – he flew to London.
M: He flew to where?
G: London, London. From there he met our folks and returned to Georgetown.
G: He did not expect to meet them there, there were a surprise to him – he returned to– with Sandy to Georgetown perhaps from ten days to 2 weeks after he had left, do you copy?
M: No, repeat that one.
G: He returned to G/T about ten days to 2 weeks after he had left. We have reason to believe that he spent his entire time then in London. He again left G/T sometime around June 10, 11 or 12. We lost sight of him until that time and sometimes thereafter (2 to 3 weeks later) suspicioned that he was staying at his parents’ house in Colorado, copy – We don’t know that exactly, but we somewhat validated it because apparently [Jeff] Haas had some discussion with him there, you may know about that.
J: Someone suggested he was out of the country and we keep on the good side of him.
G: In the meantime, we suspect that he may well have returned to Europe to do his little business, he was familiar with international banking arrangements.
M: Right, he was familiar with them, he read the Wall Street Journal every day.
G: Roger, roger, roger, I just wanted to lay out the scenario for you in hopes you might be able to do some checking about those events in the later part of June, you copy.
M: That’s a roger, that’s the same scenario we had, but we had one question open. How do you know that he was in London when you sent Mike to get him?
G: Very amusing story, do you copy?
J: One of his buddies in the office where you work, he left a suitcase with the man–
J: One of his close associates, you copy–
J: –where he formerly worked, you know in the foggy city, by the name of Hunter. Says he got a call to deliver the suitcase to London, do you copy, and Hunter thought we were on the best of terms, so he gave us the suitcase, you copy.
M: I got it, that’s beautiful.
J: I thought you’d enjoy that
M: Have you got any more traffic for us over here, over.
J: March 30, Prokes got there March 30 and left there April 1, 1977, copy.
M: Roger roger.
J: Sandy came on with him here and Prokes went on back to the States, copy.
J: I’m sure she can verify what was said.
S: To put it a bit closer in time, he sent Paula– Stoen sent Paula a telegram from Trinidad dated March 25th saying he would have to stay in Trinidad for 9 more days. Copy?
M: That’s a roger.
S: So he arrived in London between March 25th and March 30th–
J: And again as we remind you and we don’t want to take more of your busy time because you have certainly been busy bees– He did not leave G/T by commercial flight and it’s no small penny to fly to Trinidad by charter.
M: That’s a roger. Mr. C and I have a request, that you cancel – You copy, cancel–
[Unknown speaker]: Roger.
M: – that you cancel any reprimands of Sandy, is that a copy?
J: Oh Roger, roger, I’ll do that certainly, roger, roger. She was just the motivating force that caused him to move, it was just her looks, that’s all she had, she’s good in that department.
M: Leaving today with Sir Lionel [Luckhoo], do you copy?
[Unknown speaker]: Roger.
M: –and in that meeting all problems were solved. Is that a copy?
[Unknown speaker]: Beautiful copy.
M: You are free to return to G/T and go to the hospital, is that a copy?
J: That is fantastic news, I think you’ve already cured me, but that’s fantastic news.
G: You will be accepted within the next week in G/T for the medical work up your counsel told you to get, is that a copy?
J: I heard the order, yes, I will copy, I will roger to that.
M: Will you send the entire scenario of that conversation between your counsel is coming to you by airplane to you tomorrow. Make sure both sides of the tape recordings are listened to.
September 14, 1978 (Side 1 continued) P8
J: I got you, I got you whatever and whenever you and Chuck – to the end, it’s to the end. I haven’t got much, but one thing I have, not looks, but I do have a lot of loyalty and I shall never forget what has been done, thank you and over and out.
M: That’s okay, just throw your damn pens away. Over and out.
J: Well, sometimes they’ve been handy, but I will coordinate, thank you. Get some rest, we love, we all appreciate you very, very much. It came at the right time.
September 14, 1978 (Side #2)
M: Okay, Mike, this is Joe. Do you copy?
M: Okay, I want you to take me back through this episode with Mr. Hunt, do you copy, over.
P: Repeat the name?
M: I want you to take me back through the episode.
P: He sent it together, his secretary called Maria [Katsaris], and this was in San Francisco.
M: Whose secretary?
P: Mr. Hunt’s. It said that he had a suitcase.
M: Repeat that now, Mike, who called in the first place, over?
P: Mr. Hunt’s secretary called Maria at the church.
M: That’s a roger, go.
P: He said that Mr. Hunt had the suitcase.
M: That’s a copy. Did Mr. Hunt tell Maria where he got the suitcase?
P: The person had left it with him.
M: Did he leave it at his home or at the office, over?
P: I believe it was at his home.
M: That’s a copy. Now did– When Mr. Hunt called Maria, did he tell Maria how he got the suitcase in the first place, over?
P: I think he said that the person left it there with him.
M: That’s a copy, now what did Hunt tell Maria?
P: We think he said, what do you want me to do with it?
M: Okay, get Maria there so she can tell us exactly what went on, is that a copy?
P: We’re getting her, we’re getting her, over.
M: Now go ahead and take me through for this minute what you and Sandy did when you went to get the suitcase, over.
P: Stand by. Okay, Maria got the suitcase from Mr. Hunt, over.
M: That’s a copy, go.
P: We opened it.
M: Okay, you opened the suitcase, what was in the suitcase, over?
P: Stand by, stand by. Jim’s calling from the field phone where Maria has the facts first hand, so stand by a second.
P: Okay, she’s saying, she’s saying that Mr. Hunt called personally, she’s saying that it was him personally that called asking how he could get a hold of the man.
M: Let me get that right. Is this right? Mr. Hunt called Maria personally and asked her how he could reach the subject, is that correct?
P: Roger, roger.
M: Okay, then what did Maria do, over.
P: Okay, then he said he had a suitcase that he had to get it on a flight to him– to the subject.
M: Okay, he told Maria that he, Hunt, had a suitcase which he had to get on an airplane flight to the subject.
September 14, 1978 (Side #2) P9
M: Then what did Maria do?
P: She said I can put it on the airlines for him.
M: So Maria told him that she would put it on the airlines. Now when she got the suitcase, was there any address on the suitcase, over.
P: She thinks there was no address on the suitcase.
M: Then how did Maria know what to do with the suitcase after she got it from Hunt, over.
P: Because Mr. Hunt told her where to send it.
M: Because Mr. Hunt told her that the subject had told him where to send it, is that correct?
P: That’s a roger.
M: All right, then, Maria has the suitcase. Did you open the suitcase?
M: And what did you find in the suitcase, over?
P: Warm winter clothes.
M: Warm winter clothes.
P: Yes, shirts, pants, shoes, all warm winter clothes. There was a couple of suits in there too.
M: Did you find any keys in the suitcase, over?
P: We’re relaying by field phones, that’s why it’s taking a while. There was a roll locked suitcase and it was opened by combination, trial and error, and no keys were found inside.
M: That’s a roger, what did you then do? Over.
P: Unless we missed them inside the clothes, because the clothes weren’t gone through that thoroughly so it could have been in the clothes, but then we made reservations and left.
M: And you went to the airport, is that correct? Over.
P: Roger, and we went to where the unclaimed baggage goes. We figured that’s where he’d pick it up, and that’s where he told Mr. Hunt to send it, and we waited for him there.
M: Stand by. Did Mr. Hunt call the subject back and tell him what flight the bag would be on, over.
P: Mr. Hunt didn’t know what flight to put it on so she just sent it so it would go to missing baggage.
M: That’s a roger. Stand by.
P: She told Mr. Hunt she would take care of it emphatically.
M: Who told Mr. Hunt they would take care of it emphatically?
M: That’s a roger.
P: Because she suspected it might be money or something.
M: Did Mike– Sandy really check the bag well, or did they just pat them down, over.
P: Unfortunately they weren’t gone through that thoroughly, there were mostly patted down.
M: That’s a roger. Stand by.
P: When he saw us with it, he turned white as a sheet, and he finally walked in to claim it.
M: What did the subject say when he actually saw you face-to-face? Over.
P: He said, well, do what you’re going to do, why don’t you get it over with?
M: if you’ll let me repeat: do what you’re going to do, why don’t you get it over with? Is that a copy?
September 14, 1978 (Side #2 continued) P10
M: How did– What did you understand the subject to mean by those words, over.
P: Well, he was so taken aback that – stand by – it’s really difficult, I didn’t really know, I just know he looked surprised, but we didn’t know. We weren’t sure what he meant.
M: Did you ask him what he meant?
P: No, and you know we’ve never been of a violent nature so it didn’t occur that’s what he may have meant.
M: Did he know that you had a CPW?
M: Did the subject know that Mike was looking for a CPW permit, over?
P: Roger, roger.
M: Do you feel that that statement which he made could have been in connection with his knowledge of your possession of that permit, over?
P: Well, sure it sounded like a man who had done something and deserved to have that done to him.
M: Did you at any time cause the subject to have fear because of your possession of that permit? Over.
M: Did you ever cause the subject to have fear because of your possession of that permit? Over.
P: That’s negative, never.
P: Negative copy.
M: That’s a copy. How did you carry on after you met Stoen, what happened next? Over.
P: He knew Sandy didn’t trust him.
M: What did you do after you met Stoen and had talked to him in the airport? What did you do next? Over.
P: We went and talked to him. Stand by.
M: Where did you talk with him?
P: It was a place nearby, it was an eating place at the airport.
M: What did you do next? Did you go to his apartment, did you go with him anywhere? Over.
P: Then we got a ride to a hotel and had dinner, copy.
M: That’s a copy, what did you do next?
P: Stand by. Stand by.
S: Stand by a second, Mike is trying to think.
M: Tell him to do it on his own time.
P: Okay, after that we had dinner, I was trying to remember whether it was the same night she went with him and I went back to where we stayed the night before and that night she went with him and stayed with him where he was and I went back to where we were and the next day we met at the airport, and I went back to the States.
M: All right, let me get this one straight. After you had dinner, Sandy went back with the subject to the hotel where he was staying and you went back to the hotel where you were staying and the next morning the two of you got together (three of you) got together again and left London, is that correct?
P: I am not sure it is correct, Joe, but what I think, she’ll know there may have been a day in there when she was with him, it may have not been the next day. Stand by. Okay, I’m trying to piece this from our memories of what she told them and what I remember. He said that he had to meet some of his friends the next day and that he
September 14, 1978 (Side #2 continued) P11
P: did show and they went to a play that night. He didn’t say where he was staying at that point (he refused). Do you copy?
M: Let me go back over that. After you had your dinner, did you go back with him to his hotel? Copy.
M: And then the next day the 3 of you met again. Is that a copy?
P: I think we are going to have to get her in on this. Stand by. See, he refused to tell us where he was staying, but he said he would meet the next day, we may have stayed 2 nights at this place and then he met with her the next day and after meeting supposedly meeting with his friends. Copy so far?
M: That’s a copy.
P: Then he put on the dog for when they met later that afternoon and they went to a play and then I think they went out the following day – as Jim recalls – and it could be wrong. Sandy said for the first time he tried to come onto her, but she looked at him steely-eyed, and so the course went on.
M: That’s a copy. Let me get this thing right now from remembrance that you have, is that you spent a couple of days there running around and he took her out the next day and they went to a play or someplace like that, and after that he tried to put a make on her, and she did not, and then things went along as normal. Is that a copy? What happened next?
P: I think I had left that morning, and then as I recall she stayed with him that night and they left the following morning, so let me see if the others have that information. Sandy and he sweat all the way back to Guyana.
P: He said he sweat all the way back to Guyana – she put him on the plane.
M: Did Sandy or you ever hear of the– hear the names of any of his friends in London? Over.
P: I don’t recall any names, but we had a book with some names of people in and around the area that we may still have it.
M: What kind of a book?
P: It’s a little address book.
M: Did that address book have JP or GP, over?
M: That’s a copy, can you verify that before midnight tomorrow night? Over.
P: You mean that we have the book.
M: That’s correct, over.
M: That book is very important because it may give us the names of the bankers to which deposits were made by subject, over.
P: Roger, roger.
M: Stand by while I try and recompute.
P: You can see our whole file [life?] on it.
M: When the subject contacted Hunt, and Hunt contacted Maria, did Hunt tell Maria how his contact was with the subject? Was it by telephone, was it by letter or by telegram or by carrier pigeon? Over.
P: Stand by, checking.
P: It could have been a telegram, but it may have been a call too. We didn’t count on Hunt being a friend of ours, so we don’t know for sure.
M: What’s his name Hunt or Hunter? Over.
M: That’s Hunter, that’s a copy.
September 14, 1978 (Side #2 continued) P12
M: Stand by–
P: You know it’s the same, the same office–
End of tape