Mazor speaks with Eugene Chaikin

[Editor’s note: This tape was transcribed with loose punctuation and spelling, and has been edited for clarity. In addition, the transcript was typed in a single paragraph without breaks for change of speakers. The paragraphing, then, is different from the original.]


[Handwritten notation: “Mazor & Chaikin on radio, Memorex Side 1”]

[Mazor:] If you go back to California and try to prosecute him [Tim Stoen], he has too many friends there in Mendocino and San Francisco for you people to get an honest and fair amount of time for him in the State prison.

Chaikin: I had visions of a federal jurisdiction on the matter.

Mazor: Well, you may be right, but I had visions of the nice little country known as Great Britain demanding extradition because it would probably work easier, and then Guyana extradition from Great Britain.

Chaikin: That is an excellent point of view. I have no way to visualize to what extent if any our English friends would have any kind of vested interest in this kind of transaction. That is almost– That would have to be worked out in terms of comedy [comity] with the Guyanese government. That information would have to be developed on your side.

Mazor: I can give you this much. If money is deposited in a bank in Great Britain, which is the proceeds of a criminal act, they immediately, according to their criminal standards, have the right to extradite the criminal.

Chaikin: I’m not so much concerned with the technical application of the various statutes because as a generality, most nations have statutory structures that are plenty broad to cover us. I’m more concerned with the administrative practicalities and whether the individuals concerned are really going to concern themselves with this problem.

Mazor: I hear you, Gene, and I think that you probably have something going on this end. Jim has got a lot of friends here and they may be very willing to take that step out. Particularly if when you look at the political situation of Stoens’ attorney [Jeff Haas], especially in terms of those in power here.

Chaikin: Yeah, I see that very clearly. I’ll tell you what. Off the top of my head I would think that we would want to discuss this matter, with some people here. At the time that we had some ammunition, you know, I mean some really well-developed ammunition and documentary material.

Mazor: I’m not even going any farther than what I did. What I’m trying to establish is words of a letter before this. When I was with Sir Lionel [Luckhoo], I wanted to make sure that there was a validity because if Stoen were to come back to England, I would like to see that maybe his arrest could take place there.

Chaikin: Well, if our suspicions were anywhere near accurate, he may have to.

Mazor: That’s true, and I’m sure that the leader of the Concerned Relatives would all disappear as soon as these accusations became public.

Chaikin: I like this as an approach. I wouldn’t want to altogether discard the possibility of a federal jurisdiction. After all, there are elements of dealing with the Security Exchange Commission involved in the thing. There are all sorts of transactions across interstate and national lines, and there are plenty of grounds for federal jurisdiction in the case.

Mazor: Well, let’s leave it at this, you can take it anywhere you want to take it.

Thanks so much, Joe, I appreciate the information and everything you’re doing, absolutely delighted with it. I think what we need to do is to develop all the alternatives that we see as feasible at this point and then see how the cookie crumbles.


[Handwritten notation: “Mazor & Chaikin on radio, Memorex Tapes [page] 2”]

Mazor: I think with the information that you have, and the ability to go maybe 1, 2 or 3 different ways, you can sit down with Jim, Charles [Garry], and everybody else and decide what you want to do, and that matter is solely up to you people, because that is way outside of my jurisdiction.

Chaikin: Yeah, well, Terri [Buford] is going back in a few days, and when she does, she’ll go back with a kind of an outline, a written outline, of the way we see things and what our purposes might be.

Mazor: My main thing with the thing this morning was to ensure the fact that we get a letter back here that has some significance, if not official validity, at least significance as to the ability of Jim to travel within the country.

Chaikin: Yeah, I think you’re right, but just in passing, what I’m a little curious about, gee, with all this cooperation on one side and the lack of concern on the other side, what is the procedural limitation with just formally canceling the thing?

Mazor: There is no problem there. The problem is this. Stoen’s attorney has notified Stoen that in the best interest of all, the measure be canceled. The problem is that Stoen hasn’t replied yet.

Chaikin: Well, you see, I don’t know. The Commonwealth procedures are much different than the ones I’m familiar with. If I were sitting back home, on my own turf, what I would do is file a motion to quash on all kinds of equitable grounds.

Mazor: That’s a 10-4, but here, they don’t have a motion to quash on equitable grounds. They have a procedure, and procedure dictates that the attorneys agree, and that the attorneys notify their clients to agree. If Stoen disagrees, he has the ability at that time to proceed with another counsel, or proceeding another way.

Chaikin: Well, if I ever get away from my administrative job here, maybe I’ll have the opportunity to spend several hours with Sir Lionel and get a cheap course on Commonwealth procedures. It is really kind of an Alice in Wonderland thing for me, not that I feel that it isn’t a genuine and effective system, but I’m just totally unfamiliar with it and I’m–  it’s almost impossible for me to make a comment on it.

Mazor: The only thing that helped me was that last night, I spent about 2 hours with the presiding Justice of the Supreme Court.

Chaikin: I’m sure that he had the ability to explain all that to you. I’ll tell you, if you could explain all that to Timothy, if he would be so kind as to make a few notes, and send us out a little letter explaining to us how this is, all of us not being at all versed in these procedural things, it is a little hard for us to follow the action.

Mazor: I understand that. One thing that you might be aware of, it is the determination of the presiding judge that if Stoen demands to continue with the action, even after being advised against it by counsel, he will appoint another Justice to the case. The Justice that has been on it has excused himself from the case.

Chaikin: Yes, we pick that up on the case. That is really what we anticipated, you know, the PJ [Presiding Justice] has his own position and his own responsibilities.

Mazor: Well, the responsibility in this case is that you can’t just file a motion to quash or a motion to dismiss or memorandum pleading, and be damned with the other side. It puts you in kind of a funny legal position, but I’m not going to tell you what that is, or tried to tell you what to do. Again, it is way outside of my jurisdiction.


[Handwritten notation: “Mazor & Chaikin on radio, Memorex Side 1, [page] 3”]

Chaikin: Yeah, we understand that. We just time gabbing about it. The thing that is most critical for us right now is documenting the various kinds of transactions that we discussed. My notions about this is until they are documented, a lot of what we have done is very meaningful, but we can’t take the next step beyond that.

Mazor: I agree with you. You are giving me information now that I may have had, or may have been given before. The documentation of this material should not be too very difficult. I expect to be leaving for England within the week, and from there to France. I should probably have the answers you’re looking for within a week or two, and maybe the answers I’m looking for, shortly thereafter.

Chaikin: Good. We probably will certainly hope for the best. In any event we probably won’t take any affirmative step until you advise us that either you have located or haven’t located the essence of what we’re looking for.

Mazor: 10-4. I will be in contact with Charles at all times, and I will assume that any action on your part will be through Charles.

Chaikin: Roger. Actually in the next few weeks, Charles is going to have his hands full with all the defensive monkey business we’re involved with. The defensive action that we’re forced to engage in.

Mazor: I will be meeting with your Sandy on Monday, Sandy from SF [San Francisco], and by the time we’ve picked her brains and by the time we’ve talked about the other material, we should be in the position for Charles to make some fast decisions as to what he wants to do.

Chaikin: Roger, right, as long as he lets us in on his thinking, if you copy.

Mazor: The main thing here is that you at least have a letter which will somewhat dispel the fear of a “Right to Consultation” (Not clear on tape).

Chaikin: Yes, well, that will be helpful, in some sort of explanation from Tim, or whoever, as to the procedural difficulties involved will also be helpful, because what no one has ever clearly explained to us that procedurally what we were asking for couldn’t be done. Our concern was, that coming from our background, well, these things are normally done and stopping them.

Mazor: I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. I think that the biggest problem that you have in your communication in the thing, Sir Lionel Luckhoo represents the Corporate image of Peoples Temple. He does not represent Rev. Jones as an individual.

Chaikin: Well, that’s true, there has been no need to represent Rev. Jones as an individual because he has not been formally joined as a party to any of the proceedings.

Mazor: That’s true. But now we’re talking about guaranteeing his safe conduct although he hasn’t been joined as a party.

Chaikin: Roger, right. Whatever arrangements we need to make with Sir Lionel will be made.

Mazor: Well, he has agreed that it has already been taken care of between him and the registrar and everybody else. So all that I’ve done is just gotten a letter that I’ll send out to you that will confirm and report what Charles had in the tape recordings and what we talked about today.

Chaikin: Thanks, Joe, we sure do appreciate everything you’ve done. The whole situation is certainly enlightened. I was saying, needless to say, we do very much appreciate everything you’ve done and are doing, and the situation is very much enlightened from our point of view.

Mazor: Everyone is chipper by now. Everyone seems to have found out who the bad guys are and who the good guys are. You can tell Jim that I took off the black paint that I had painted on his hat, and it is now white.

Chaikin: We would have settled for a rainbow color.

Mazor: No, I only deal in the specifics of black and white.

Chaikin: Well, it is kind of a relief


[Handwritten notation: “Mazor & Chaikin on radio, Memorex Side 1, [page] 4”]

(Chaikin cont’d) because we’ve been characterized beyond belief, you know.

Mazor: Not beyond belief, but you’ve been characterized.

Chaikin: Well, it’s good to know that the color of that is capable of being changed. Some of us were almost willing to believe that that was the end of it, and that [was] the way it would always be, you know, for better or worse.

Mazor: Nothing can’t be changed as long as you have enough power and push to change it. You people brought me down here and you showed me what you’ve got, and that’s it, it’s all over, it’s done with. Now, I’m going to go back, and I’m going to have a news conference on Tuesday, and God help Tim Stoen.

Chaikin: Oh, wonderful. I really kind of like to be there. I owe the fellow a couple myself, you know.

Mazor: I’m going to send a tape, I’m going to have my secretary make a videotape of the thing to be made so that we can have it sent down to you and player, in the middle of the amphitheater.

Chaikin: Beautiful, you’ll be able to hear the cheers all the way back there.

Mazor: Well, I– I don’t want you to feel that I’ll be saying something bad about you behind your back. I told you to your face that I didn’t like some things, and that I liked others, and you’ll hear it right out front when I tell others the same things.

Chaikin: We’re not worried about it, we’re not worried about it, Joe. We don’t expect a clack, a person who can’t think independently is useless to himself and everyone else in the world.

Mazor: Okay, well, that’s what you’re going to hear, and I think you’ll enjoy it. I’m going to be swinging some papers around up there, some forged trustees, some forged notary documents, when people said that they didn’t sign documents, when [blank space] (ultimately, they did – not clear on tape) I’m going to be swinging around an original of a grant deed belonging to someone’s piece of property which I just got from Charles. I think it should be a very interesting situation.

Chaikin: Well, I hope so. I just hope that our media representatives have the courage to be honest and to give as much play to this presentation as they did to the other. Cause, after all, like others in this deal, they have been had.

Mazor: Well, I don’t know that we’re going to get front page heavy coverage that we got the last time, because that was real scandal, and this isn’t. But, I did ask Steve Davis, who has been working on this, and has put a lot of time in it, and maybe he might feel that it is scandalous enough because all his time is down the drain. Everybody lied to him. That might just make him mad enough to put it all over everything.

Chaikin: Well, I would think so. I don’t know how people up there are, and that business. But, I know that when I’ve been had, and I’ve been used, I resented it and I have a tendency to make that resentment known in every way that I’m capable at the time keeping myself out of stir.

Mazor: Right, and when you’re digging up vines in the field, you turn them over and dig deeper, and take out your animosity.

Chaikin: Right, so I would think that some of those guys in the media back there would be just a little bit resentful about the fact that they were used like they were by those people and really just on the basis of plain common fairness, and of course there is a fairness doctrine at least applicable to the electronic media. But just on the basis of the plain common fairness my just want to do something.

Mazor: I think they will give you a fair play, at least you’re not going to get the heavy coverage that you got the last time, but you’re going to get fair coverage, I think, and as Timothy Stoen  unfolds, I think you’ll get more and more fair coverage.

Chaikin: You know, talk about a movie, a moving picture, it would be hard to write a script that would have


[Handwritten notation: “Mazor & Chaikin on radio, Memorex Side 1, [page] 5”]

(Chaikin cont’d) a more interesting heavy.

Mazor: Yeah, well, if I do anything, it will be a documentary and not a script.

Chaikin: Well, we’ll see, but fact has always been more fascinating than fiction.

Mazor: Yeah, when you’ve got so many players. Okay, you take care. As soon Tim comes back, I’m going to the airport. You’ll be hearing from me on Monday night, via SF.

Chaikin: Have a good trip.

Mazor: I’ll talk to you on Monday night, and I’ll probably be heading for England on Tuesday or Wednesday.

Chaikin: Take care of yourself. I don’t know how heavy this thing is, but however it is, we want to keep you in one piece, you know.

Mazor: I don’t think it is that heavy. I think you probably have a suicide coming up in the near future.

Chaikin: Oh, my, my, my, well, we don’t wish that fate on anyone, but nature is going to have to take its course. We wish good for everybody.

Mazor: Okay, take care, and say goodbye to everybody. I’ll be talking to you Monday night.