[Editor’s notes: Because this document was written as notes, it is in a rough format, and therefore has been edited for spelling, punctuation and clarity. The author isn’t identified, although it is likely Tish Leroy.]
12 September 78
Memorandum of interview with [Joe] Mazor and Gary [Charles Garry]
I asked Johnny if there was anything I should or should not say to Garry before going down to East House to talk to him. Johnny said that, “Dad has always told me not to volunteer anything they don’t ask.” But other than that, he said you had told him I should talk with Garry and tell him what he needed to know and that you trusted my judgment, which I wasn’t worried about.
Garry asked me very little, and I answered accordingly. Essentially, I told Mazor the same thing relative to the Swinney deed … [Handwritten addition] as I told Mazor.
1) That sometime in September of 75, we had a church government or council meeting. All of the elders were present. Not a congregational meeting, however. That the issue of the deed came up and it was generally thought it wasn’t at hand. Apparently someone had asked Tim [Stoen] and he didn’t know where it was, but I said I was sure I had in the church safe, and went downstairs to the safe and got it out of the deed file which I was in charge of.
Q: Did the deed have the signatures on it?
A: Yes, both signatures were on it and Tim’s signature was on it. He told me he had signed it, but at the time had not put a stamp on it. He was called from his office out to the meeting after I had located the deed. He often did not have his seal with him when he did notaries and would put it on at a later time or have me do it for him.
Q: What else took place?
A: Tim gave instructions on the filing of the deed. I went into Ukiah the next day and copied in handwriting the description to check with the one on the deed before it was filed to be sure it was correctly worded. The description was a stapled copy on the deed as was the practice of the office, but I always check these things.
Q: Would you have typed original document?
A: Yes, I recognize the typewriter and was one I used at the time and I was the only one typing for us in that office in June of 1973, when this was originally signed, after the deed was taken and recorded, after the description was checked in Sept 75 and the notarial seal put on it, and I again confirmed both signatures on it.
Q: Did you ever forge any deeds for the church?
A: No. We printed up a batch of blank deeds, but none were ever forged. In fact, some which were signed were rejected by the church board because we were not sure the people were sincere. Not all that were accepted were kept. Some were returned if we were not very sure the people were sincere. If we thought legal complications might ensue, we did not accept the deeds. None were ever forged. The reverse, we bent over backward to be sure the people wanted the church to have the property.
Q: Did you talk with Marvin [Swinney] about his signature being false?
A: No. I recall talking with Marvin after the deed was recorded, but he did not question the signature, he questioned why it had been recorded. (This seemed to surprise Mazor and Garry; but is fact. Marvin never to me denied his signature. He did not understand why we had recorded it at that time I talked with him – and I do not recall my answer. I’m sure I would have hedged and doubletalked like hell…)
Q: Mazor then asked about forged affidavits and documents for transferring CDI to the Valley, etc. [Emphatic sentence, all in caps] This was way off base, and I am sure my reaction showed it.
A: What would be our reason to do that?. We had no trouble getting the signatures of our people when we were helping them. There are many occasions when we got powers of attorney signed, and we sat at tables at all three churches and got them signed [Emphatic sentence, all in caps] (I did not add that these were notarized but not witnessed by Tim Stoen, as I had been counseled to mention or not mention this fact). They were also memorized by others and by Grace Stoen, a notary herself, who notarized many she did and did not sign. I did not mention. (This would have been true of both powers of attorney and affidavits.)
Mazor asked about Neva’s [Neva Sly] time in law office. I explained I came to Valley first week of September in 1972. Am positive of the date because I was there just a little over a week when we were attacked by [Lester] Kinsolving Sept 16, 1972, and we bought the two temples in Sept-Oct 72, right after I came to the Valley.
I explained Neva never worked in law office after I came there. (In fact Gene did not like her and never trusted her, he said. And she was very careless in her work and very gossipy.) That seemed to surprise Mazor and Charles Garry.
I said the only place I worked with Neva was in publications which I started. She was a press person and ran our multilith. She probably did print the deeds that we used, but there were never any forged. There was no reason to forge anything. I had run a print shop in Los Angeles and started our publications in the Valley. I did no legal work with Neva. I think I mentioned she was a congenital liar, which I knew her to be. In fact, Neva told lies when the truth would have served her better. I told him she always wanted to work in the law office, but was always refused. This is true.
Q: Was Tim Stoen always gung ho for the church? Did you work with him after he came down here? Did he advise recklessly? Did he show good judgment in counseling or church matters?
A: Sometimes Tim was careless, but part of my instructions in working with the attorneys was to carefully follow up to see that the interests of our people were met. They had been so oppressed and had gotten such poor representation before they came to us. Jim was very concerned for the rights of every little person no matter who they were.
Tim’s advice was basically conservative on most things, and as a former legal secretary and accountant, I sometimes thought he was too conservative. If he thought we would be in trouble with a deed or some such, he advised against taking it. I did not work with him at all after he came to Guyana. I did some work with him just prior to his going from SF. (I did not mention I paid his bills and handled his personal checkbook through the period before he left, and while he was gone, I paid his bills with money orders, and he had his check sent to my attention for processing.)
At last he seemed for careless, I said. I had no reason to doubt his sincerity toward the church.
After this, Garry asked with a tape recorder off if I knew anything about Medlock case. [Emphatic sentence, all in caps] This was a surprise, as it had not been mentioned to me and indicated to me he must trust Mazor or is a damned fool to chance my testimony without knowing what it was. I said yes, but volunteered nothing. Garry called in Sarah [Harriet Sarah Tropp] on seeing I was saying nothing, and asked her to get him the file. She cleverly diverted conversation to Joe Wilson and would Mazor like some testimony on Grace Stoen and what she had pulled (implying sex) with Joe. Garry instructed her to go over with me, and get back to him.
Mazor had lunch with the consul today. Mazor gave us some friendly advice regarding the consul. He said if we wanted to stay friends, we should call him by his surname, and if we are ever close enough to be on a first name basis, he likes to be called by his full first name, and not by a nickname. He said he is very reserved. Teri [Buford] said, Evidently you must be pretty close to know what he wants to be called and he just smiled.
He said he had been deceived by Jean [Brown]. He was told by Jean not to bring cameras. He said that wasn’t true. He walked right in and talked to the person in charge of immigration and that person said it wasn’t true. He said, that he taped Jean Brown when she told him this. Teri said that she didn’t think it was intentional that Jean said, but we know of a woman that that happened to and Jean was just trying to help you out.
Then he said the next problem was that she told him not to mention his profession. He said that was also perfectly fine and he just went and told them. He said it was wrong not to tell them what his profession was. Teri said I am sure that Jean just didn’t want you to have any problems and he said, “I didn’t have any problems.”
He reiterated when Tim came in that he had gone in and had a “powwow” with the man in charge of immigration. He said also he talked to someone in CID and he said it rather pissed off.
This is a person as you know without a conscience, but further than that the person is protecting himself from being vulnerable by deciding that before you screw him, he’ll screw you. The development of conscience has a lot to do with the fear of withdrawal of love and approval on the part of the parent and later on the part of the peer group, if the peer group has a middle-class morality.
In the sociopath, his environment did not give any love or approval that was consistent in terms of his developing a morality, and it was most likely abusive so that he had to make out the best he could for himself. His peer group reinforced approval for survival behavior by making him a hero if he can be the bully. (Mazor growing up in an environment that approved of Tammany Hall politics, though they admitted the corruption, fits the development of this kind of personality.)
Theoretically, this kind of person has not the early development of trust that is supposed to take place when the child finds that he can trust the mother to meet his needs and reassure him. He later trusts no one. He is even afraid to trust someone because that opens up all the vulnerabilities that he has learned can get you killed, hurt or misused. Therefore being nice to him may not help.
How he would respond to this type of environment is hard to say. Maybe an environment that is so startlingly different to the one that hurt him or developed him might impress him but it is hard to say.
The question is whether a person like this at the age of 40 some years which I gather he is, his tired enough of the dog-eat-dog world to have an open mind to us. He seems to like to play the game. His conversations of what he said to someone show that he feels he can put out con people (like John Maher who is super-con). If we act very impressed with his abilities, it might soften him so he can be a big hero. But it looks like he’ll sell out to the highest bidder. He said that stealing children is his business and if Grace have paid him, he would have brought in a helicopter with guns and men and take John in the open field. Maybe we need to let him know that we will give him money not to take John. Why Grace didn’t do that is a mystery as Mazor since she paid Haas more than she would have paid him to steal the child.