ABC News: “Jonestown”: Interview with Mike and Tim Carter, 11/25/78 (Parts 1 & 2)

Transcriber’s notes: The first and second parts of the interview may be viewed directly through the ABC VideoSource Archive here: ABCNEWS VideoSource (Search 20P708O for Part 1; 20P708P for Part 2)

Alternatively, it may be viewed on YouTube here: 1978 SPECIAL REPORT: “TIM AND MIKE CARTER SPEAK OUT ON JONESTOWN”

This interview – or rather, better described as a “mini-impromptu press conference” – features surviving brothers Mike and Tim Carter, who have just arrived at the Park Hotel in Georgetown, Guyana, nearly a week after the events of November 18th. The two brothers, along with Mike Prokes, managed to escape the Jonestown mass suicides after being assigned the task of delivering suitcases filled with money to the Soviet Embassy in Georgetown. The brothers – along with a few reporters – sit amid the open-air veranda of the colonial-era hotel and answer a multitude of questions asked by reporters. Although Mike Prokes is present at the hotel, he is neither heard speaking on the tape nor seen.

Some of the questions asked to the brothers include: their custody status; what they saw prior to leaving Jonestown and the instructions they were given; their relationship with Jim Jones; practice suicide drills; what attracted them to Peoples Temple and Jonestown; their duties in the Temple; the conditions in Jonestown; the money they escaped with; and the guns they were given; their personal fear, among other questions.

Additionally, in the second part of the tape, Tim Carter shows the reporters a few photos of both their wives and children, which can be seen on the tape and are noted in this transcript. Most notably, however, towards the end of the second tape, survivor Harold Cordell—one of the Jonestown defectors—suddenly appears and angrily accuses the brothers of being “goddamn liars” and questions how they obtained guns.

TAPE 1 (18:32): Search 20P708O on ABCVideoSource or watch here:


(00:00 – 18:31) 

Reporter: (Camera focused on Tim and Mike) What do you call yourselves?

Tim Carter: My name is Tim Carter.

Mike Carter: Mike Carter.

Reporter: Where have you been until now?

Tim: We’ve been at the police headquarters under protective custody. (Camera zooms in on Tim) Not under arrest, but just under protection.

Reporter: Where were you last Saturday?

Tim: We were in Jonestown.

Reporter: How did you get out?

Tim: Well we had been asked before this had all started—we had been asked to—by a woman named Maria Katsaris to—he [Mike Carter] and I were asked to help this gentleman [Mike Prokes] over here to help deliver a suitcase and um—[Maria] said it would be heavy, he’s going to need some help. So we agreed to do that. Uh—I said I’ve been through this so many times today—so many reporters. (Sighs) Anyways, just as things started happening is when we got out and ran for our lives.

Reporter: What did you see before you ran?Tim: Well—(Unintelligible whispers) When I went by the kitchen I heard a lot of screaming and people crying. And uh so I went up by the pavilion—and I saw (Voice crack) mothers leaning down holding babies—people crying and I—when I saw my wife—holding my son who’s dead—(Unintelligible whisper)

Reporter: (To Mike) What did you see?

Mike: (Camera pans over to Mike) Um I didn’t—I saw—I wasn’t near the pavilion at any time this was happening. I had walked by—approximately two hundred yards away from it—and saw a lot of people there uh—who were standing outside of it. It looked to be just a mass of people. Uh no organization to it. But uh they were all standing outside of the pavilion and—um I can’t make it but I heard a guy talking over the PA system in there, saying somethings—I couldn’t make it out. I didn’t hear anything else in there.

Reporter: How were you able to get out?

Mike: Well as he said earlier, she—Maria had asked us to help (Sighs)—Mike [Prokes] to uh carry a heavy—package and she—we were allowed to go change our clothes and meet later with him and take this out.

Tim: You have to remember—(Camera pans over to Tim) the time reference is everything was happening very quickly. Uh that whole day, everything happened very quickly.

Reporter: What took you around to Jonestown in the first place?

Mike: Are you talking—(Camera pans over to Mike)—when I first came? Um well, I had been—uh in the Peoples Temple since I was fifteen. So all my highschool I’d been in it. I didn’t really have much else in the world. It seemed to me—I mean from the propaganda—it seemed to be a nice place to live, you know.

Tim: The Promised Land—

Mike: Yeah, the Promised Land is what it’s called. So my wife—my child was born here—my child was born here. My wife—uh came here a little bit before I did and had the baby here (Unintelligible).

Reporter: In lieu of what’s happened, what do you think about Jim Jones?

Tim: (Camera pans over to Tim) I think he’s a madman. I think he was insane—and I hate him.

Reporter: How was it that more than nine-hundred people—are dead?

Tim: It’s a good question. (Shakes head) I still don’t know.

Mike: I can’t—(Camera pans to Mike)—make it out. I mean—(Shakes head) it’s—it’s (Unintelligible word). I went ahead and went back Monday to identify the bodies. And I never in my life have seen anything like it—bodies were arranged—it seemed to be—at least a lot of the bodies were arranged in a certain way. It was just—I had never seen anything like that in my life.

Reporter: How did you know Jim Jones?

Mike: Not well personally at all. And as I’m finding out more, a lot less than I thought.

Reporter: Would you describe yourselves as loyal followers of the Peoples Temple?

Tim: (Camera pans to Tim) I guess at one time. Not anymore.

Mike: Not now. Not now. I had said—up until Saturday.

Reporter: So you were not loyal to the point (Camera pans to Mike) that you would take your life?

Tim: (Camera pans to Tim) No—and the whole thing was insane. It was—(Shakes head) (Unintelligible) I’d never ever—imagine anything like that could happen. Anybody would be so—insane as to try to—create something like that.

Reporter: (Reporters and Mike talk over each other)—Did you ever take part in—uh the practice suicides?

Tim: Not here in Guyana. One in the States but I wasn’t in Jonestown at—

Reporter: Why did you take part in that?

Tim: Because I didn’t know I was doing it at the time. It was—an organization called the Planning Commission, which was the leadership and they—passed some drinks around but then I think Jones said something like “we have one hour to live” and I didn’t believe it—at the time it was happening.

Reporter: What was your role in the organization?

Tim: While I was here I was doing public relations work and customs.

Reporter: In that role, how close did you get to Jim Jones?

Tim: Well I was considered to be close but I was not that close. I was never one of the inner—you know, inner—inner circle. As I’m finding out, there’s a lot I didn’t know that was going on and it was going on the whole time. (Two reporters talk over each other)

Reporter: Did you see people shooting other people?

Tim: Nothing.

Reporter: What did you see?

Tim: I told you what I saw. I saw—women kneeling down—holding—a lot of crying—cause I said I was not playing detective at the time. I wasn’t trying to do anything. I’d—almost immediately I saw my wife and my baby and that’s where I went— (Unintelligible whispers)

Reporter: (To Mike) You saw no death whatsoever—

Mike: No. (Unintelligible) As a matter of fact when we went back (Camera pans towards Mike) uh to help identify—from my understanding there was only three people who were shot—Jones being one of them. Uh the rest were po—poisoned. When we saw—I mean the bodies had badly decayed. There was foam coming out of their noses and mouths and it was so—grotesque. (Shakes head)

Reporter: Can you explain the—the altercation here or your uneasiness about staying at this hotel? (Camera zooms out)

Tim: I think it’s understandable. It’s just that two different groups of people left in two different circumstances. And—and because we were considered to be in the in-leadership, they are a little bit—they’re trying to start their lives over again—and we are—I think that’s all there is to it. We asked specifically not to be right here because we did know they felt like that. And um I understand that. And—and really that’s all there is to it. I think we want to start our lives over again and they want to start their lives over again and it’s as simple as that. I think everybody is afraid right now more than anything.

Reporter: Do you have any bitterness left towards any of the people who left—those who would be defectors? (Camera zooms in on Tim)

Tim: Not at all. I wished I had listened to them.

Reporter: What was your reaction to officials who were saying there were about four hundred people there—and their bodies had been recovered yet we now know there’s about nine hundred bodies recovered.

Mike: (Camera pans to Mike) Um—in my—you know as I said I saw—I couldn’t figure out where they had gone, you know, for so many days and not be found. I mean the jungle is extremely thick. You can walk into it—just a few yards—and it be like you’re miles into it. Um—none of us knew the jungle that well. You would have to have a guide—an Amerindian—to survive for any amount of time in the jungle—to know what to eat, what to drink, what’s safe. And I—I didn’t know what had happened to it—I had no idea.

Tim: Apparently bodies were stacked on top (Camera pans to Tim) on bodies is what had happened.

Reporter: Since you handled—since you handled pub—public relations, presumably you would know the population of the camp. How many people were there?

Tim: I think it was around nine hundred—nine hundred fifty. I don’t know the exact number but I think it was around nine hundred.

Reporter: And how did—what were you thinking when you were told only four hundred bodies had been recovered?

Tim: I thought that three hundred people had gotten out alive and they would be showing up very soon. And it makes sense—sense to me in the three days that we were in Port Kaituma, that uh nobody showed up. Not one person would come out.

Reporter: Are you going to remain a member of the Peoples Temple?

Mike: No way.

Tim: There’s no—I no longer consider myself a member of Peoples Temple.

Reporter: Do you have fear for your life?

Tim: Yes, very much.

Reporter: Why?

Tim: Well, a number of things. We heard that some people were out to get survivors—it’s like people that were afraid for their lives (??) We heard that the—I don’t know if its factual—I heard that the mafia had a contract—to kill any ex-members if anything happened and also—I am personally afraid for when back in the United States—anybody who’s lost relatives, even though I lost a sister, a wife, and a son. I didn’t know—it’s just a very emotional thing.

Reporter: Do you want to go back to the United States?

Tim: Eventually yes, but not right away.

Reporter: What is your status for with the Guyanese police now—are you still being held in protective custody or—or what is your status?

Tim: We’re not sure exactly. We’re being held I think—uh we’re not under arrest and—we never had been under arrest. Uh we were brought here along with the others cause that’s where—they’re keeping the survivors. But I really honestly don’t know. I think that will unfold as the days come. (??)

Reporter: Why are you under guard? I noticed you notified a policeman to go to the bathroom.

Tim: I just—I only did that so none of the other people here would think that I am trying to go up to their floor. (Unintelligible)—they’re very paranoid. So I just did that for my own—safety and so they would be assured that nothing would happen.

Reporter: Are you free to move out, move on from this hotel? If you wanted to get up now right—in two minutes—right here from this hotel, can you do that?

Tim: Uh no, I don’t believe so since we’re still working with the Guyanese police and their investigation and they’ve asked us to stay here.

Reporter: Have they given you any kind of explanation for why they brought you here?

Tim: No they didn’t. Cause we—we—like I specifically said—

(Tape cuts)

Tim:  —Helped the investigators and told them everything happened—that we saw.  (Unintelligible)

Reporter: (Unintelligible; question likely about Tim’s role in public relations)

Tim: When I say public relations—let me clarify something. I didn’t mean that in the sense of talking to media, but in terms of—uh talking to different people in the (Camera pans to a reporter) government about—(Brief tape cut) I’ve been in Georgetown most of the time. Uh there was a lot of things that were going on that I was not aware of.

Reporter: For example?

Tim: Well—a lot of the beating (??) that I heard that had gone on and uh—I mean I heard things but I never heard any—I didn’t believe them— (Brief tape cut) So there was a lot of things that were going on and my wife never communicated to me—you know, any complaints to me.

Mike: Um it was the living conditions—especially over the past few months—it had gotten more crowded. Uh there were some lumber that had just come up to make some new houses. Uh—the food was  not the greatest, you know. But we were never hungry and he would talk—Jones would talk a lot about um—you know, there’s starving babies all over the world and you should be glad you have food. You know, a lot of it was guilt. He put a lot of guilt on people. And you know, so you let it pass by because you had guilt and you felt guilt. (Camera zooms in on Mike’s hand expressions) While you know, there’s people who don’t have food, and I have food, you know. But it wasn’t you know—the greatest. When we had something good it was this great thing.

Reporter: Why do you think (Unintelligible)—Peoples Temple?

Mike: I don’t think they had a choice. (Camera pans to Mike)

Reporter: What do you mean by that?

Mike: I don’t—um in my opinion—like I talked to another guy—Odell Rhodes—who had told me he had—one person had stood up and said they didn’t want to do it. And when we went out there to help identify, she was there.

Reporter: (Camera pans to the reporter) What was it about Jim Jones that drew you two—

(Brief tape cut)

Mike: Um it was like the family—I didn’t really have a lot of friends and there everyone was warm—uh they accepted me. It was interracial—I never really had any racist feelings and—it seemed to be, you know, a type of—you know, place that you would think would be a great place to, you know, be at. Because people were friendly and everything like that. But— (Shakes head)

Reporter: How much of a factor was race in Jones’ ideology?

Mike: Um—wait—what—do you mean like did he use it a lot or? He—he—

Reporter: Well for one thing, apparently a large percentage of the membership of the Peoples Temple was Black. How do you explain—how do you explain that—what was his special attraction for the Black people who joined that cult? And for that matter, the White people? It wasn’t an unusual cult in that sense (Mike nods head) because of the racial makeup—what was it about Jones and his teachings that brought that—

Mike: Well, it’s sort of difficult. He was—

Tim: (Unintelligible)

Mike: Yeah. I really—

Reporter: What about a white person?

Mike: Well the thing that drew me was the uh—he seemed to be—he had a charisma about him that—you know, I think just attracted a lot of people from a lot of different areas. He would talk uh—about you know—no racism, you know. He taught like—love and peace, stuff like that, you know—you shouldn’t cause harm to anybody and type of things—and I believed it. I really never had any—idea that this would be the end of Peoples Temple. It was just— (Shakes head) everything that he said wouldn’t happen—and it happens.

Reporter: Do you think this is the end of Peoples Temple?

Mike: I think so. I don’t see um—who would carry this on.

Tim: (Camera pans to Tim) Jim Jones is the center of the organization. I don’t see how—I don’t see how—see why it should go on. I mean it’s uh—I mean I’m not a member. If people—people understood that the organization was built around Jim Jones, Jim Jones is dead.

Reporter: (To Tim) What was your title, and what was your salary?

Tim: I had no official title. There were no official titles in—in the group. And it wasn’t a salary in the sense of getting an official paycheck or anything like that but I had—all my needs were provided for, and my family’s needs were provided for.

Reporter: (To Mike) What about you? What did you do?

Mike: (Camera pans to Mike) Um—basically I—I uh would repair the radios. I was a radio operator for a while and I would operate on the radio. And uh—but mainly would be doing repair work there. And no, I never had a salary—other than all my needs were taken care—you know, housing, feeding, clothing, that type-of-thing—

Reporter:  What do you think happened to the money?

Mike: (Sighs) That’s a good question. I think a lot of it is in accounts. Uh I’m not really sure how much was where—you know, the money was kept tight. And—

Reporter: Who was in control of it?

Mike: Uh as far as I know the treasurer was Maria Katsaris. Uh I’m pretty sure that’s who it was. I mean that’s who I knew of—who controlled the money.

Reporter: (Unintelligible)—About the suitcase you were carrying?

Mike: That’s true. We were.

Reporter: (Unintelligible)

Mike: Well—uh

Reporter: (Unintelligible)—You escaped with the bags during the poisoning?

Mike: Well I—my brother had—

Tim: From—from the very beginning—it was crazy—

Mike: Yeah.

Tim: (Camera pans over to Tim) (First part unintelligible) —It was totally circumstantial—totally circumstantial. It wasn’t, you know—by choice. And uh—

Reporter: You were there—when it actually started? (??)

Tim: Like I said I heard screaming, I heard crying. I went to the back of the pavilion and I saw bodies on the ground—mostly mothers kneeling and I saw my wife and my son—and that’s where I went. I was not interested in anything else.

Reporter: What about the visitors who came to the camp? Russians?

Tim: Well, there was the Soviet delegation that visited. There had been—you know, there had been a lot of visitors to Jonestown—uh as well as the American Embassy who visited several times also.

Reporter: Why did they come?

Tim: Why did they come? I really don’t know. Um—there had been talk about a move to the Soviet Union, which I think was used as a panacea. With people’s—a hope for better living conditions—because it was crowded and the food wasn’t as great as you would want. Um—but I was not there, so I don’t know what to place with your questions.

Reporter: Was there—to your knowledge—any connection whatsoever—

Tape ends.


TAPE 2 (8:55): Search 20P708P on ABCVideoSource or watch here:


(18:31 – 27:26)

This interview continues from the previous part; however, there appears to be a brief tape cut between the two parts. The second part begins with Tim’s response to a reporter’s question—likely in regard to sex in the Temple.

Tim: (Camera focuses on Tim) I’m not quite sure if I understand the question. People had—sex.

Mike: It was nothing out of the ordinary. At least not that I know of. I mean like you know, like I had a wife and everything. And, you know, it was—I mean people are people, you know. Yeah, very much—birth control was allowed, you know—at any time you wanted it—you just went and asked for it, you know. And uh, you know any—you know, relationship, you know—you could go with anyone you wanted to, you know. But I mean—they did not like—did not like—uh marriages broke up. They did not like that—and mixing, you know, of marriages. That was not approved of.

Reporter: Did you know Dr. Schacht at all?

Mike: Not well. I knew him—just as a doctor. I never really was a friend or anything of him.

Tim: (Camera pans to Tim) I knew him. I didn’t know him very closely.

Reporter: What would make him prepare— (Unintelligible)  poison—

Tim: The same thing I think made everyone do it. I don’t know—brainwashing? I don’t know. The whole thing was insane and I don’t understand it. I don’t understand the whole thing.

Reporter: How did Jones brainwash that many people like that? How did he brainwash you?

Tim: I think it was a combination of guilt, hope—offering hope—uh—intimidation of sorts. It was a number of factors but I think those are the three words I can best describe it.

Reporter: Why would you join the Peoples Temple? What was the attraction?

Tim: Well I heard about Peoples Temple originally from a woman I knew in Nevada. And she told me that she had met Jim Jones and he was a very wonderful person and that I should—see him. So I eventually went to a meeting and um—the thing that I was initially impressed with was the uh—I saw more harmony there between blacks and whites than I had seen anywhere else in my life. And I thought that the organization was a one that was helping poor people, you know—doing something that was positive in society.

Reporter: What’s your hometown?

Tim: What’s my hometown? I was born in Berkeley. I grew up in Burlingame, California.

Reporter: Thank you. (Tim nods)

Tim and Mike sit back in their chairs as the reporters pack up their equipment. Tim then pulls out photos of his family to show the reporters. The first photo he shows is of him and his wife, Gloria Carter [Rodriguez], who was pregnant at the time, at the Temple’s 1977 Golden Gate Bridge antisuicide ceremony.

(Unintelligible talk between Tim and reporters)

Tim: (Holding up the photo) This picture—(Unintelligible; Tim is pointing at Gloria in the photo)—was taken when Jim Jones was speaking at a ceremony for— (Unintelligible)

Reporter: Say that?

Tim: This picture was taken—it was totally ironic by chance—(Unintelligible)—Jim Jones was speaking at some kind of dedication ceremony at the Golden Gate Bridge (Unintelligible)—commit suicide.

The camera shakes as it moves closer to Tim. Tim then pulls out more photos from his bag.

The next photo Tim shows is of Mike Carter’s wife, Jocelyn Carter [Brown], who is holding their baby, Kaywana. Tim then pulls out the previous photo of him and Gloria at the Golden Gate Bridge ceremony to show to the camera again, as Mike is heard in the background talking to a reporter.

Tim: (Unintelligible; talking about the photos)

Mike: (Unintelligible; in the background talking to a reporter) —Just basically looking for—we were—we were—um—

The next photo Tim shows is of him, his wife Gloria, Mike, his wife Jocelyn, and both of their children—Malcolm and Kaywana—in Jonestown.

Tim: (Pointing at the photo) This a picture taken of us uh—my brother and his wife and his baby—my wife—my baby.

Tim continues to show the previous photos to the camera as Mike is still heard talking to a reporter in the background.

Mike: (Somewhat unintelligible; in the background) —Maria has just given us—(Unintelligible)—Maria Katsaris—pulled my brother and I to a room next to the radio room—where I was working—and asked us to carry a heavy package, you know. Help Prokes carry a  heavy package—go home, change your clothes, meet me at the West House, which is where Jim Jones lived. Uh—went up there, met my—Tim came up a little bit later. (Unintelligible)—carry suitcases. Um for a time we’ve gotten to the—chicken house. It was too heavy to uh—carry. When we looked inside we saw—all this money—we looked at it before a lot of money. And uh at this point, we just wanted to get out, get to the police, you know—get it over with. And that’s—I had—as I said earlier, had seen some people—I mean around the pavilion—(Camera shakes around then cuts)

Camera zooms in on Tim leaning his head down. Mike is still heard in the background talking to a reporter.

Mike: —And that’s all I saw—that whole thing—until I went back on Monday. (Unintelligible) —Left them at the—piggery. And uh Monday we went back there to— (Unintelligible).

Reporter: (To Mike; first part of question unintelligible) —What were the instructions?

Mike: (Camera still focused on Tim) All that I heard was—take it to the embassy. Uh later we found out it was to go to the Soviet Embassy.

Reporter: How did you find that out?

Mike: When we looked into it we uh—there was a letter in there. And—

Tim: We dumped the money—

Mike: We had dumped the money. (Camera pans to Mike) You know, we had this letter and it said (Camera pans to Mike)—the Soviet Union—it goes to the embassy in Georgetown.

Reporter: Did you open the letter?

Mike: No.

Reporter: What do you mean you dumped the money? You just opened the suitcase and dumped it on the ground?

Mike: No, no, no.

Tim: The thing is man, we’re running for our lives. (Camera zooms out) —It would be ridiculous to be taking a suitcase down a road when you’re trying—trying to get out alive. Muddy road—we slipped and fell a number of times—even without it.

Reporter: So you dumped the whole suitcase or just dropped the money out of it and—?

Mike: We put the money into a bag—into—it was again, the chicken house and there was an empty chicken bag there and stuck the money in there. (Tim leans his head down)

Reporter: Left the money or?

Mike: Yeah we left the money.

Reporter: How much did this bag of money weigh? Any idea?

Mike: To me it seemed approximately thirty-five to forty pounds.

Tim: I don’t know (Unintelligible) It was a little ridiculous considering the circumstances. We’re trying to get out—

Mike: —I mean, it seemed heavier—I mean it seemed heavier because of the conditions I’m sure.

Reporter: Why do you think that the money was addressed to the Soviet Embassy?

Tim: I don’t know. I do not know. I honestly do not know.

Reporter: Any guess?

Tim: I can’t even take a guess. I don’t know. I don’t even—I don’t know what they would do with it. I don’t know.

Reporter: What’s happened to that money?

Tim: As far as I know it’s in the custody of the government—or the police. (Camera zooms in on Tim)

Reporter: And what was your estimate of its contents?

Mike: I had no idea how much money was in there.

Tim: We had no idea—

Mike: No.

Tim: —They told us—they heard later from the reporters that it’s five-hundred-thousand dollars. We had no idea—

Mike: Yeah—that’s probably inaccurate. (Camera pans to Mike) Cause they—we didn’t count it or anything, we just—you know, saw it. I heard it was something like five-hundred-thousand dollars so I guess they counted it and stuff.

Reporter: Mike, did you go up anywhere near the pavilion during the poisoning ceremony?

Mike: No, I didn’t. (Shakes head)

Reporter: Thank you.

(Camera zooms out)

Harold Cordell: I think you guys are lying. (Camera pans over to Harold) I think you guys are lying. I don’t think any guns were given to you. How did you get guns? We couldn’t get guns, huh? Tell me that? Goddamn liars! You’re lying, damnit! You saw what was going on there and you had access to guns, huh?

Harold Cordell walks away as the camera pans back to Tim and Mike sitting back in their chairs.

Mike: (Camera pans away from Mike and Tim and zooms in on Harold Cordell as he walks away) That is—that’s Harold Cordell. (Unintelligible) —We were told to kill ourselves—

Tim: (Camera pans back to Mike and Tim) —Yeah, we were told to kill ourselves with the guns. That’s what we were told to do.

Mike: If we were caught—and this is what Maria—if we were caught, we were told to kill ourselves. And—which is totally insane. And you can check with police.[1] When we were in Kaituma, the gun I had uh—it was a five round—I don’t know that much about guns—shit, I don’t even know how to shoot a gun. Um—three of the bullets were out of the gun—in my pocket—and the other two were in it.

Reporter: Did you shoot anyone at the camp?

Mike: No, I have not shot anyone at the camp and I have never shot anyone in my life. I’ve never shot a gun since I was in the sixth grade.

Tim: (Camera zooms in on Tim) And I did not shoot anyone at the camp and I have not shot anyone in my life to my knowledge, and I never will shoot anyone in my life.

Reporter: Do you think you’ll be facing any kind of charges here in Guyana?

Tim: We don’t know. I’m sure we probably will be.

Tape ends.


[1] Tim’s, Mike’s, and Prokes’ police statements – although with some parts redacted—can be read here.