[Editor’s note: Insofar as is possible, the letters and notes of Peoples Temple’s contacts with C.A. “Skip” Roberts, Assistant Commissioner for Crime have been arranged below in chronological order.]
B-1 (6)
APRIL 22, 1978
DEBORAH TOUCHETTE
SKIP ROBERTS
APPT W/ SHARON AMOS & DEBORAH TOUCHETTE
– He said there was no investigation from the CID [Criminal investigation Division] dept. If there was, he would know about it.
– the only time he wouldn’t know was if it was political, (subversive)
– then all they would do was listen, accumulate information and relay it.
– said it wasn’t unusual we were checked in the beginning, all churches are checked by the CID, we don’t just allow people to come into the country and set up a church.
– said he was in the U.S., spent time in Washington, Chicago, & Boston, but didn’t like New York, said it was a terrible place
– He said there are beautiful places in the United States.
– He has a friend in Long Island, has bought a fancy home there
– said we are a progressive community, so naturally we will be harrassed
– said it would eventually go down, as it is, he hasn’t heard much on P.T. lately
– said in 77, alot of news, 78, maybe thirty situations, 79, maybe twenty situations etc. until nothing, said this is the way things go.
– He thought the church headed by Rabbi Washington was a criminal situation dealing with passports etc.. Someone brought this up in a meeting and and he agreed,
– He had arrested Rabbi several years ago, the man’s a criminal, has a record in the U.S.
– Mentioned that he had met Harritee [Harriett Tropp], said he liked, her.
– He asked about Sandy Jones and Tim, said he remembered that big husky guy.
– asked about the people he met at Redds Prerro’s party [Joseph “Reds” Perreira], (Mike and Deb)
– He said he showed Paula Adams the report by [undercover detective] Padmore, said to Padmore that he was saying illigal things in that, if people from the U. S. fine something good about Guyana, then theres something wrong with them, and what he was saying was anti-govt.
– said the P.M.’s worries are that people see good things in other countries like the U.S. and want to leave to see these places. Everybody wants to go to New York
– What the P.M. wants them to realize is they can do nice things with this country
– said he was out of the country when we had our program doing some study in England on a fraud case, he would know the results in about five days.
– said we should not worry about things that may happen, face them as they come.
– said their films should show more documentaries of the bad things in the U.S.
– Sharon agreed, said there were movies that glamorized alot of things in the U.S. that made people dissatisfied.
– He agreed that was so, but… What can I say to someone who is poor, sees a movie with a man that has fine clothes, fancy cars, and alot of girls under each arm of all sizes and shapes at his disposal? what can I say thats bad about that? I don’t know what’s bad about that. I spent time in the U.S., I know what it’s like
– He said parents couldn’t do anything against us, it is not a police matter if parents don’t see their children.
– What the police may do is go to your place and investigate the situation, ask you why you won’t let the parents on to your property?
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It would be better for you if you let them, in that they may go back to the U.S. and say P.T. wouldn’t let me see my child because he was chained up, beaten with marks all over him, this type of thing.
– said he personally isnt worried about us. He didn’t have any problems with us.
– asked us if we had a new truck, said he noticed it down town with alot of people in it.
Sharon told him Stoen wrote the Senators, saying we were holding people against their will, the State Dept wrote all of them saying that Stoen s information was not accurate. McCoy checked us out and found the rumors to be unfounded.
– said things are going your way.
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B-1 (9)
Deborah Touchette & Terri Jones
May 26, 1978
Skip Roberts
W/ Terri Jones Deborah Touchette
– At first he said he couldn’t see us until next week, and just as we started to go, he sent a message for us to come in.
– We told him that a serious problem had come up, and that a few of our members had been taken to the police station, and they had just as much right to be in that area as anybody else.
– Before I could finish what I was saying, he answered “rightfully so, rightfully so.”
– I asked him what he ment by that? [Handwritten addition: “(he said ‘taking the law into your own hands’”)]
– He said they had no right to be there snooping around, he said there had been a series of fires at the Pegasus causing thousands of dollars’ worth of dammage and his people were down there trying to find out what was behind it all. He said they were picking up anybody in the area that looked suspicious, or was lurking about, what were your people doing down there anyway?
– We told him the same thing we told [Vibert] Mingo, and that when she [Ukiah journalist Kathy Hunter] had come into the country she had used the Prime Ministers name and Minister Mingo, and had entered fradulantly. We had found out through Pat Small, who we bumped into accidently, and had gone to the Pegasus to meet her and find out why she had come unannounced. She asked to go up to the project and to meet with Cde. Jim Jones,
– We told Kathy that Cde. Jones was not there, but if she wanted to come up anyway, she was welcome, but she acted abnormally to this
– Skip said will I met with her for over an hour, and she said all sorts of things about you people, but I knew something was funny from the moment I heard her name. I recognized it from the articles that Paula had submitted to me in the beginning that she and her husband [George Hunter]had written from the Ukiah Daily Journal.
– He said it was a good thing Paula had gotten those things to me long ago, because she’s an older woman, and she sounds convincing to some of those people who know nothing about your organization.
– “I don’t like her though,” he said, she’s playing alot of games, she doesn’t really smile, she just squints her eyes, she’s phony.
– “One thing about her is, she contradicts herself too much” he said.
– “she said she had to hawk some diamonds to come down here, but she has the money to spend all over the place in the little shops, buying dresses and this sort of thing. She’s not careful in how she talks.
– “Both the commissioner and myself were up there for some time.
– “I didn’t believe her, and I was getting tired, so she directed most of her conversation to the Commissioner. She brought it to our attention that there had been no drills or fires until she had arrived at the hotel, she tried to make it look like you people were responsible for the fires [Handwritten addition: “He said ‘You didn’t know there were fires when you were sitting down there this [illegible word]”]
– We. told him we didn’t even know there was a fire… we were aware of the drills, but knew nothing otherwise.
– We told him that we had received a phone call from a woman faking an accent and she enquired about Cde. Jim Jones and his wareabouts. We knew she was supposed to be leaving the country that same day according to Min. Mingo so some of our people went down to see if she was still there, because we thought it was a possibility the calls could be comming from her.
– We asked him if he couldn’t see how unlogical it would be for us to stick around the area if we vee setting fires? and in the first place
[Handwritten note: “He said ‘She may have been trying to set you up – I know you weren’t involved, that when your boys were [illegible word] to go instead of spending the night in the slammer.”]
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B-1 (10)
– none of our people have criminal records, and we have never had any trouble since we have been in Guyana, so we don’t understand why our people were picked up, and singled out and even one of the girls was intimidated, one of the officers told her, if she didn’t talk she would be made to leave the country. We said she [Daisy Lee Stroud] was very young, asian background and didn’t speak english very well, and even when she was trying to explain what she had said to the police she didn’t do it very well. [Handwritten note: “He said they weren’t my men. [illegible balance of note]”]
– He said yes but she was found upstairs in the hall ways, not down in the lobby
– Terri told her that she was young and new and of course she would be currious to see the hotel.
– We told him that Tim C. had taken it on himself to go down to the Pegasus after he had received the call and had taken Daisy with him.
– Skip said “In the U.S. you can have private detectives, but not in Guyana, you have to call the police, that is left up to the military and the police.
– “Why didn’t you call me?” he asked, in the past Paula always called me, even in this case with Tim Stoen, she called and I got right on to it.
– I told him we didn’t know, but in the future we would call him right away, but we had reported it to Mingo and he had assured us that she would be leaving the country right away, so we went down to see if she had, or would after the call.
– He said that the lennion colsets [linen closets]had been set on fire and that is expensive in Guyana, you didn’t know there was a fire?
– We told him we absolutely did not know, it only makes sense, we wouldn’t have been down there if we knew.
– Well you fell right in to her hands then, she knew there was fires and she used it against you.
– He said he didn’t think we were responsible, but he thought it was a coincidence since we didn’t know. Can you understand why we thought what we did?
– Terri asked if we were still under investigation?
– He said ’No.” [Handwritten note: “He said he didn’t think the police had any out for us – Jails are just rough.”]
– She asked if any of the people would have a criminal record?
– He said no, it would just go on file that certain questions had been asked and answered on the report in connection with the Pegasus incident (on the file on the Pegasus)
– He said the U.S. embassy had called him wanting to know if what they had heard was true, that some of the P.T. had been arrested?
– Skip said he told them no, it wasn’t true, but at that time he didn’t knov anything about it. he later found out that it was true that some of them had been picked up.
– While we were sitting there the phone rang and a reporter from the Guyana Chronicle called and asked him if it was true what he had heard that some of the members of the Peoples Temple had been arrested?
– he denied it to the press
– we asked who the man was that asked?
– He wanted to know why we wanted to know?
– I told him that’s alright if he didn’t want to tell me, but otherwise we were just wondering.
– he said he couldn’t remember the man’s name, but he was an East Indian fellow who has been with the chronicle along time, sort of heavy set
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B-1 (11)
– I honestly kept didn’t have very remember his name, you people might know him.
– call me back later, call me in an hour, I’ll remember by then, or call me tomorrow. (there were some people in his office so
I don’t think he wanted to tell us in front of them. We had walked out of the office and come back in to ask the reporters name)
– We invited him to J/town, he said he didn’t like to go in those out of the way places, said his wife was interested in going.
– I guess it would help you if I did go up sometime and then I could tell people that I have been there and seen all the good things.
I guess I will go sometime, he said.
[Handwritten additional notes: He said he didn’t think Kathy Hunter had much to do with Tim Stoen & we told him how she had lived in the same town for years: he had taken her flowers – He said “Hmm.” you mentioned a couple of times that we played right into her hands & now she had a great story to tell back there.
He said he used to get correspondence regularly from whoever – TOS – for about the last 14 months but it had frozen he had heard anything for about a month or so.
He also said that Brickdam called him, and if it hadn’t been for him they would have spent the night down there.]
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B-1 (13)
Skip Roberts
5/29/78
Debbie [Touchette], Maria [Katsaris]
We only saw him for about ten minutes and he had several interruptions. When we gave him the message about [US Embassy Deputy Chief of Mission Richard] McCoy and one of our people giving out his name, etc., he said that he did not know anyone over at the American Embassy except some guy by the name of um, um, McCoy, and that he had not talked to him. We tried to give the impression that he did not know him well and had not talked too recently. That was about all he said. In fact, he just mostly looked at us with what I would say was a smug or condesending smile on his face. Kind of like, so what? What are you in here telling me this for? You are always concerned with such stupid things was how he tried to come off. We knew he was lying about McCoy, and he wouldn’t respond to what we were saying, like he knew something and wasn’t going to say. He said he did not have time to show us our file, that Mondays were a bad day and that is why he had told us to come in on Tuesday. [Note indicating bracketed remark: “She said this to me, not him.”] [Debbie said this was the third time he has not shown it to us.] So we are going to try again today. He tried to come across like he was very friendly the whole time and kept this smile on his face the whole time. It was strange. No one smiles straight without ever changing their expression. Also, when he learned my name, he said, “oh, so you are the person who does not want to see anyone.” Just my personal opinion, and I don’t know him, but I would be surprised if he wasn’t CIA. His walls have all these certificates and diplomas on them of U.S. military and special warfare training programs, etc.Also, although he is Guyanese, he comes off more like he is American.
He comes off like a liberal, hip type of person, that you just don’t see here in Guyana.
One other thing that he said, which I thought was his way of putting us down – when. we first got there he said in a “joking” manner, “well, have the mercenaries come over your wall yet?”
Just for information: a police officer came in while we were talking to him and said he had the two people they busted at the airport here for him to question.
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B-1 (14)
TO: HILL [code name of Jim Jones]
FROM: MARY RUTH
1. SKIP ROBERTS, DIRECTOR OF THE CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION DEPARTMENT (C.I.D.)
A. Commissioner of Police Lloyd Barker met with him and a few other heads of departments within the police force. Barker said we were being harrassed and there was a lot of nit-picking at us up there. He told them about the shooting and the robbery and the people in the bushes and that he thought we should keep the gate closed. He also told them about government’s position toward us. He told them about his recommendations about lighting and fencing.
B. Roberts is the head of the department that PADMORE works for. PADMORE was in Matthews Ridge to give evidence in a fraud case and was asked by Inspector Benjamin, Regional Minister Carmichael and Gregory Gaskin after they had spoken to Leon Broussard to go out and investigate the charges. PADMORE was not up there for the reason of investigating us, but because he happened to be there until he got an airplane out or went to court or something, they asked him to got to our farm.
C. PADMORE had never heard about us before and in his report he made references as if the government did not really know what we were doing up there. He thought that our farm should be gone over thoroughly to check for such things as marijuana and opium which are known to have a very lucrative market and which we know to be growing in Guyana.
D. I think it significant that Roberts even showed us the file. He must not hold much stored in it or he would not have shown us. I think he was on the level. I think he knows much more than he let on about the accusations coming out of California and the various elements of harassment that we are getting here also. He did not play dumb, but he simply did not offer any extra information.
E. The report praised our work and thought the farm impressive, however he questioned how it could have come about. Broussard mentioned something about a slave colony and PADMORE quoted him and also went on to say that he saw people there working very hard (which Roberts commented that it shows that PADMORE is afraid of work). Roberts also remarked about PADMORE’S surprise about “why would Americans who had so much in the U.S. want to come to Guyana which is under strain”. Roberts said that it shows by his comment that if he were able to get a visa to the U.S. he would be gone.
- Roberts said that we must keep in mind that PADMORE had never heard of us before, therefore when he came upon this city in the jungle with 700
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PAGE 2
Americans and the only thing that he had heard about us was that we ran a slave colony and we beat people and stole old people’s social security checks that it night influence his thinking. The point is that the persons Influencing his thinking are Carmichael, Gadkin, and Benjamin. I told Roberts that the man was unfriendly and that he took two pictures One, of the radio antenna, and two, of the garbage pit. Roberts saw no mention that pictures were taken written in the report, but that he would ask Padmore about it.
G. Roberts suggested that the best way that we could allay many peoples paranoia and curiosity about our farm is to do a very thorough picture layout and submit it to the newspaper so that people would be exposed to what we are doing without thinking it is sone clandestine operation.
H. Roberts claims that he had PADMORE come into his office and gave bin a good chewing out for assuming that the government and the police and in particularly his department knew nothing about the American fam.
I. Roberts also claimed to have told PADMORE that he knew about us from the time that we came into the country. (When we were buying the CUDJOE, he went out on a fishing cruise which was really to check into fish and fuel smuggling techniques. The cruise happened to be the same evening that we were looking into buying the boat. I was asked to cook and I didn’t know how to cook at that time and I sabotaged the food. It was bad and he had not forgotten, nor did he neglect to tell everyone that mentions Peoples Temple. Maybe not a good impression, however, I made an impression on him that he hasn’t forgotten.)
J. One of the primary questions that PADMORE put in his report was, ’’now do we get our funds?” Roberts was saying, even if you do get social security checks from senior citizens, it is none of our concern. I told him that we are funded by donations. He said that there must be considerably less donations with so many people here. I told him that the church had not decreased and a church that had several thousand members could still get donations. Roberts was not cynical, however, he did get a few questions in with discretion. He is very sophisticated in police detective work, he appears to be very much for us, and he may well be, but I don’t underestimate his functioning as a detective. He takes on a very casual air. He gave us his home and work numbers and as I told Karen, it makes it easier if we just call and give him the information rather than him having to dig it up (which was why I assume he gave us his home number).
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B-1 (16)
K. Overall, I think Roberts is for us. I don’t think he could have maintained an air of support through the entire interview without being somewhat sincere. He said that in his experience with the Police Dept, that the kinds of things that most groups face if they are being harassed is that people will either accuse them of something atrocious (like burying babies alive) or something to smear their morality, by suggesting things such as orgies or the opposite – they can’t have sex at all. He said that you usually find these kinds of rumors around large groups which are just getting settled no matter what they are trying to do (missionaries or whatever – he doesn’t categorize us as missionaries because he knows our commitment to socialism). He said that this is common where any large group settles.
L. He said that the Rabbi Washington of the House of Israel is a fraud and that he knows of his long criminal record in the U.S. Roberts said if he even so much as stepped on board an airplane leaving Guyana they would be waiting for him. Washington is running from fraud charges in the U.S. Washington also committed fraud on someone here, although Roberts wouldn’t tell us who. The reason they neither deported him nor went heavy on him with any prosecution was because Washington claimed to be a former CIA agent and that there were those in the U.S. who were just waiting to get him. At that time, they were very CIA conscious and they let him slide. Roberts did say that they are watching him close now because he is again involved in some kind of fraud thing.
M. I have heard from someone else on a casual basis that Roberts is a very sensitive person and one of the few in the police force with a conscience. I don’t know how true this is, because I don’t know him well enough, but I did think his suggestion about a pictorial presentation for the newspaper a positive comment.
N. Roberts claims that because we have left the American dream and all of the televisions and material things that the average person both in the U.S. and in Guyana will think we are up to something by coming here. Roberts said that the average American can understand if an American comes and starts a business cooperative and gets everyone else to do the work and he collects the profits. That is just a good businessman, but they can’t understand why anyone would actually want to come to live in Guyana. It would shake the American people up. Why would we want to leave, etc.
O. He said that we could expect parents to start asking the police to look into their children. It always happens. I wish others would take it in stride like he does.
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P. PADMORE said that JJ was not really in charge, but only a figure-head, that the real persons in charge were Charlie and Joyce Touchette.
Q. I imagine you already know of the reports Leon gave. He said that JJ forced him into working when he knew that Leon had just undergone back surgery. He claimed that we stole his veterans check (made him sign it away).
R. I can’t think of anymore to add, but if I do, I’ll just add it below.
[Handwritten addition: “S. Roberts is mixed Black & White. Could pass for White.”]
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B-1 (18)
Skip Roberts (Paula called him)
– he said the Tim [Carter] was sent to him when he came in to make the report
– he said that the report was rather childish on Tim’s part Skip thought
– he said ’don’t worry, nothing will come of it’
– Skip said Tim said that there were 4 people that surrounded him (Paula explained that there were only 3 so right there, there was a lie)
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SKIP ROBERTS cont
– he said that he too has been criticized/ he’s either too soft or too hard, etc.
– he said that there was an article in Playboy magazine that said Guyana was too soft on drugs and he knows that’s not true as they are harder in Guyana but that’s the kind of rumor that is said about people
– he said the Stoen case he felt was the least of your troubles/ he thought they would take into consideration in the case the fact that John has been with Jim most of his life (Blacken mentioned that too, that that n would be taken into consideration, he thought)
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B-1 (8)
SKIP ROBERTS
6/6/78
Debbie [Touchette], Tim [Carter], Maria [Katsaris]
He said the report on the criminal investigations of the fires at the Pegasus was not in yet. He said he had totally forgotten about it and that he did not think anything would come of it. The police think the fires are the result of internal bickering at the staff Pegasus between the employees and the management, and that they cannot think of any other motive. He said that we cannot have a copy of the report, but that we can quote him saying that PT had nothing to do with the fires. He cannot authorize putting anything into writing. That would have to come from the commissioner and from the ministry. He “assured” us that he was confident that we would not be in the report and that anything in regards to our people had been dropped. The reason he did not have the report yet he said was because they are very understaffed.. We told him how Kathy Hunter was saying outrageous things in the press about not only us, but also the goverment and the police department. He said if we could show him copies of the articles, they might be able to write a letter refuting whatever it was that she said. But he would have to actually see the article. That was about all that was said. It was a very brief visit. He was his usual phoney, friendly self, and joked about the mercenaries some more. He does not believe it at all and acts like we are crazy paranoids or something. Said he will come up to Jonestown this month or next.
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B-1 (4)
Deborah Touchette
July 22, 1978
Skip Roberts
w/ Sharon A. [Amos] & Deb T.
– Sharon asked him if the fire report was ready, and could we have it
– he said that we could not have it and in fact couldn’t see it, but that he would tell what it said.
– he said the report summed up things in four categorical possibilities;
a. could have been done by a prankster
b. Mr. Viner-someone may have been trying to get rid of him (there had been inner disputes)
c. Mr. Chung and Mr. Richmond might have been involved, (two people in positions of responsibility at the Pegasus Hotel)
d. P.T. could have done it to get rid of Hrs. Hunter
– he said the only reason that they had even mentioned P.T. was because people were hanging around there for hours, not that they thought P.T. was involved
– he said you cannot play the role of the police In Guyana, said that we should not have been down there watching Mrs Hunter, because we just fell into the hands of that woman
– He said even if I were in the United States (ref. to himself) and was following someone around, the police would soon stop me and question me alot as to what I was doing.
– he said that in the future we should do as we had done in the past, to let him know when some suspicious character comes around and he will already be able to be aware of the situation and can deal with it more easily when something comes up.
– he made some remark about the police just putting us on the file because they didn’t like someone trying to do their job for them
– He said his opinion was Mr. Chung & Mr. Richmond had a feud and it caused alot of factionalism within the staff
– He said we should get our lawyer to write officially to the Commissioner of Police and ask for the report or something to show clearance, If someone wrote them, said we could put it in such a way that would show P.T. was not involved
– The phone rang and we thanked him for his assistance and left.
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B-1 (1)
[Letterhead of Charles Garry]
July 29, 1978
Mr. Skip Roberts
Director of Criminal Investigation c/o Police Headquarters
Eve Leary
Kingston, Georgetown
Guyana, South America
Dear Mr. Roberts:
I am attorney for Peoples Temple of the Disciples of Christ in the United States. My client has informed me that your office is conducting an investigation into the complaints filed regarding Deborah Layton aka Deborah Blakey.
I would appreciate your sharing with me the current status of the case, in order that I might discuss its ramifications with my clients here. You may check with Maria Katsaris, Tim Carter or Debbie Touchette at the Peoples Temple headquarters in Georgetown, phone #71924, for verification. Thank you for any assistance you might provide.
Sincerely,
/s/ Charles R. Garry
Charles R. Garry
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B-1 (2)
[This page duplicated B-1 (1), with a handwritten notation, “8R1 [ham radio call letters] Ask Skip Roberts his response to this letter.”]
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