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[Editor’s note: Minor spelling errors have been retained.]
[A second conversation involving Carrie Tucker – undated and without identification of speakers – appears here.]
[Handwritten notation at top of the page: “Conversation w/ Carrie Tucker re: LA/Stoen group.”]
July 11, 1978
WE HAVE NO WAY OF BELIEVING WHAT WAS SAID ABOUT C.J. [Cleveland Jackson], CESAR [Henderson], OR L.C. – ALL ARE EAGER TO GO.
Info. from Carrie Tucker
Debbie [Layton Blakey] was to have said this:
They have to spy on each other and go back and tell Jim.
Clara J. [Johnson] and K.N. got Jim into this mess by forging peoples names Debbie said J.J. said this.
Their looking for Clara J. any day now.
Seniors get 1 egg a day.
Boat and airplane was just rented not brought.
Your clothers are put away in a warehouse.
16 people sleeping in one room.
4 people are expected to come to U.S. if they escape.
Another attorney is helping Stone [Tim Stoen] (believe to be Mike Cartmell)
From Fannie Mobley:
Emily Belmon – not going to P.T. any more makes her feel ill when she attends. talking negative.
Mamie Everly – Calls Medlocks [Wade and Mabel Medlock, Temple defectors and critics] tells them everything. She’s going to stick with Science of Mind [Religious science movement].
Willie Clark has been flashing money around $723.23 money from government a girl cashed his check for him.
C.J. is a dangerous man – being seen this girl a former member. He’s been [illegible words] with her. An pretty soon he will be on Tim Stone [Stoen] side. He’s been doing a lot of talk. (they knew about his clothes being brought down to L.A.)
Minister from Oxnard (Sam Bonner) been talking to this person who talks to Fannie Mobley.
L.T. Brown – Carrie Tucker said she don’t believe his really with P.T. He’s just [illegible word] Should leave the U.S. immediately.
[illegible first name; could be ‘Willie”] Clark – Runs his mouth too much. Should leave U.S. immediately.
Charles Brooks – said we had him trying to get him to go over. (goes with [illegible words] as to have given P.T. $300.00.)
A lot of people left Sunday on a bus for Florida the bus will be sold in Florida.
A lot of people will leave in 2 weeks from L.A.
L.C. Mitchell Didn’t want to go to F.L. [Freedom Land] [balance of entry illegible]
Cesar got a girl friend in L.A. he don’t want to go over.
—–
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…talk about buying things and the kinds of things needed in Guyana…
Look at all this stuff
Where did you get this?– Vee [Hollins] talking
There’s sending a lot of it
She’s sending it out to the President in Guyana
Oh she is
Uh huh, and she sent some to [U.S. President Jimmy] Carter.
My goodness (pause)
Did they have it sitting out where you went to one of the meetings?
No, I said, the Girl’s house and she was sending it out.
Oh, you went to her place.
Ya
Where she live?
She live on Purson.
Purson? here in LA?
Ya.
Who does she stay with, [Fannie] Mobley?
No, Mobley. This is where I went to Mobley’s house.
Oh Mobley’s house.
She’s the one, she ahh… she was this is the stuff that was in that New West magazine
Oh yea
She’s the one. She’s his secretary, and she’s doing all this writing and sending all this stuff out to people.
And then she got some more stuff- that newspapers and I couldn’t… by the time I was looking and all…
Isn’t that something…
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pg 2
Do you know anything about any meetings? soon?
Oh, I would know when one is going to be. Tim said that Jim had paid somebody $3,000. to know him off.
Uh huh, to knock him off?
something may know… him?
and he said he had been- – -make his steff short now, he didn’t want to come to some one he hated.
That’s very something
…and this girl, Mobley called Lt. Rev. Dymally [Mervyn Dymally, Lt. Governor of California] and she said I hear you’ve been over there. Her cousin, I think, he’s a used to work for him and he’s very close, and she knows him personally. She was good friends of his, and he wasn’t home and so she had him to call her back
She said that he called her back, and she said I want you to tell me the truth. “You’ve been to Jonestown Guyana and visited relatives?” and he said Oh yes I was over there a few times. And she said I want you to be honest with me and true. She said what is it like over there? She said because people have relatives over there and they can’t go over to visit–they have been over there and they haven’t you know, to visit with them. He said “you don’t mean it” she said yes.
She said “How do you like it over there?”
He said “I’ll give you some tips, don’t go.”
He told her that? Lt. Governor Dymally? Well I’ll be..
He told her don’t go over there.
This is what she told you he said?
Uh huh.
Isn’t that something…
said don’t go over there
ain’t that something…
Now, we know that he’s planning on building a school over there, so that’s questionable as to what she told you. What else happened?
And then, this guy that got his behind beat–I haven’t seen him, see, the one that came from over there. And she said maybe you know him if you’ve been to San Francisco. You know I never paid people that much attention..really in the Teemple, cause I never talked to anyone really. She said that he worked at the gate and he wore a coat–long coat all the time. And he told Johnny Brown that he would rather be dead, and Johnny Brown took him out and beat him up. and said that everybody over there is sick.
—–
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pg 3
She said, listen to this, that everybody there is sick. She said that they have diarereah [diarrhea] so bad, and they are drinking all this stuff, and all the stuff that’s in the paper. And said Johnny Brown beat him and made him come inside and tell Jim what he had said to him that he’d rather be dead, so he looked at Jim and said I’d rather be dead and said they have toilets out there and after he beat him up, he told them he had to go to the bathroom. The bathroom is the woords [woods] where you go-say no toilets over there, so they thought he was going in the woods and they say he saw a big light and he thought maybe he was being followed and this light kept moving forward into the jungle and so he followed behind it like the light kept going off and he would move forward again because he wanted to really die and so this light kept coming on, stay on, and then when whe would walk up to it it was gone again. So he got up to these people, it was a house up there for he had walked for miles and miles And these people saved him and took jhim to the president over there, and Johnny bought him a ticket to Florida.
You don’t know who this man is?
No
He worked on security in San Francisco? at the gate?
wore a big long heavy coat?
Yes to each of these questions.
I wonder who it is…
Well, How did…
And then these people took him you know, where he’d get help to the President, and the President told Jim not to ever let that happen again and they bought him a one way ticket to Florida, and when he got to Florida he was telling these people about what had happened to him over in Guyana about his chruch that he was with and everything and so some strange people paid his way back to San Francisco. He was in his room for two days…
He’s back?
Yea, he’s back and his behind was beat into hamberger. And this girl, ahhhh Liz Foreman [Forman, Temple defector]– she’s got all kinds of stuff hid in a bank vault, and she’s going to come out against the Temple– said that they told her not to talk so she’s just waiting for them to say just one word to her and she’s going to tare that place apart.
(pause)
And Marcy got, Marceline was somewhere in a hospital supposed to been resting. Said Marceline got Cancer and Jim sent her back to her mother to die. They said she is sick.
(pause)
And you know she just sit and mailed letters all them governors and people–they are really reaching them all.
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pg 4
Who was helping her, do you know?
These members, I don’t know – there’re former members. I don’t know thme.
I see.
…too much…
(pause)
Who was telling you this about this man who was supposed to have gotten beat?
Fanny.
Oh, Fanny was telling you? And she heard this from who?
From the man – the man is back – he was in the last meeting that they had
Ohhhhhh.
And he was there, you see when they come back they contact Tim Stoen.
uh huh.
And she said there were a lot of members in there that go to the church right now.
That’s attending regular meetings?
That come to the church every Sunday. And when they go to church, they come back and tell everything. And she tells Tim Stoen.
(pause)
And she said I believe you’re honest and I wouldn’t trust nobody else but you
(lauglghter)
She said that some of us has diarrea, and I said to myself, she don’t know…
(laughter)
That is too much
And the girl said she think that Jim has lost his power because he’s got guards around him all the time over there and telling them that he’s got sugar in his blood.
(pause)
Ah… what’s his name? Sly…
Don Sly?
Don Sly, he’s the one that beats the men up and then they got this place where they put the hiclren [children] in the ground with something…
(pause)
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pg5
I don’t know where they get all these newspapers that you done’t even know about… cause she’s got a whole mess of newspapers from all over the place that she’s going to have Xeroxed.
Vee says some thing about San Francisco…
And they went to this… This girl from the Television Station they was all taping something.
Do you know what station that was?
No. And then they got This Debbie – they are going to get her to tell her story on TV.
Is that on Channel 2?
I don’t know. She would let me know, she said when it’s going to be on.
And Debbie Layton is staying in Crisson? Crisson…
No, Mosley is on Crisson. She’s at 1427….Cursson. She’s got a home there/ She got a duplex – she lives downstairs and upstairs she’s got it rented out. And so she’s looking for a good healer to heal her mind she says. (laughter)
Ain’t that something.
Ya, she’s looking–the girl that took her there–they got into a fight for taking her to this girl. The girl took her there to see Jim and then the girl didn’t join and she joined, and she had a big blow-out with theirgirl yesterday(?) for taking her. She’s looking for a healer—somebody to heal her mind. so she’s writing to Leroy Jenkins.
…she thinks she’s crazy now…She’s writing to Leroy Jenkins somebody to heal her…
Too much…
And Jim told Westerly… Oh he told them that they letting his members out over there tried anybody come in to get him that it would be a mass murder and all of them was going to lay down and die. And so the President was scared of them or something…
Can you imagine a little group like that going to threaten the whole Guyanese government.?
…that the President would be scared of him…and she said she noticed when they had guests at the Temples that they were having – that all the time they would eat rice 3 times a day. And when people were coming to visit they would be treated with an egg or a little meat and vegetables.
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pg 6
Who said this? Debbie?
Uh huh.
Is this taping here?
Some of it is – a lot of it’s not…
And Fanny said her sister said that Jim would never let people know that he could heal until like when he’d get people to visitl…come and visit him in the Temple down here, there was never a healing, and said that he would never collect money and wouldn’t let the people know what he was doing. And said that the people came in and they were never searched for their….But they searched the members–I don’t blame them–the members are tearing it apart….I kdon’t blame ’em… You have to start worrying once you get around the members—they would take you apart….something…they would. I don’t blame ’em I’m not afraid of people on the outside – maybe because they don’t know – you know if you’re going to church, you’ve got to watch your step. When you leave, you had better turn and walk backwards, because they would knock you in the head in a minute. And don’t say that you done something they didn’t do–that’s when they start in–you know they try to twist your little mind, pardon your mind or be jealous
ah huh
And Kay’s [Kay Nelson] husband about to go crazy about her.
But how do they know that? they contacted him?
No, Kay hasn’t wrote a letter since she left here. She said that she was at the house the night when Kay was leaving, that…
Who was at the house?
Fanny was there.
At Kay’s house?
laughter
She said that when Kay was leaving–she was there that night or the night before she left something–and said that Kay didn’t even take all of her clothes. And said that Kay asked her and said Fanny, when do you think that you will be ab…ready to go? And she told her she said I’m not ready to go, I’m not going right now because I have to understand a little bit more. And so Kay said well, I’m going over there for a couple of weeks to see what’s happening to say hello and I’ll be back. So she left her husband like that, said that her husband was real sick, so he just don’t know what to do. And one of the girls up in San Francisco that calls her after the meeting is over, every Sunday. Somebody up there calls him and gives him all the dirt.
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pg 7
So somebody up there is attending service there and calling her.
Yah, and somebody here too, and they told her that Kay had called in and said that it was such a beautiful place and how she loved it ethere and everything, but she just don’t understand it. So she has members that are going to the church in San Francisco and LA. And said…
You know the thing is that when she talkes to you, I guess once I build my confidence in her, she jwould start telling me names; because she talkes she says this girl she’s got this woman’s got her daughter and 4 grandchildren over there and the reason why she goes to church is because she don’t want to be cut out completly away from them. Now waite a minute–somebody that’s in San Francisco this girl she works for the post office.
What about her?
Do you know her name? If you tell me her name…
Is it Carolyn or something like that?
Yes that’s it Caroyln. Carolyn. She works for the post office.
What about her?
She lives in San Francisco. She gives her information to her.
Carolyn, Carolyn, Carolyn, why did I think of that name?
[Marginal note: “(C. Washington)”]
She gives information and they talk–they communicate quite frequently over the telephone. She asked her if she was going, she says no she wasn’t going, because she was making good money. WShe wasn’t going because she don’t see where they doing much better over there than they were here and something…
Carolyn…pause
Learned a whole lot–I know it’s doing good what you have been under.
Uh huh…and then ripped them off–laughter
Did she have other papers with this? did she have a lot of papers like this
She had more stacks like this when she was going to send
Mail them out
So I put them a little closer together while she was going the bathroom slipped that one.
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page 8
laughter
She was going to send them off. So you know what she had sent to the President.
Uh huh.
And then plus she had more stuff that was going to have Xeroxed and paper–more newspapers things that she was going to get together. And I put it like this: I said, Gee I’m getting a headache–I’d better go home and take a nap. I sure would like to read these papers but I don’t have time. She said oh, when I get them Xeroxed, you can come over and read them and then I’ll send them on. something
And so what they’re planning to do I think is to get some cooperation from the President of the government trying to push them a little bit, and scaring that Jim had lost his power and she doesn’t think that Jim would let anyone take him–that he would take his own life first. That he said that–that he would take his own life first before he would let them take him. bring him back here and tourture him to death.
That’s what Debbie said?
If they get this thing going, the people’s minds have been programed so–they have been told that if they come back here they are going to die–lso they are programmed so that when they take this stuff that he gives them, that they would lay down and go to sleep and let somebody else kill them. And then this girl would be doing it to her children–they have tests over there like drills–they have them get up and search camps and all that stuff, –children and allkinds of stuff go around and then they were taking some stuff one night they were supposed to die and Jim told them that they were going to die in 40 minutes, and then he said that it was just a test for when the time comes, you know.
Vee says something…
That they all wanted to die together, and they have to get a train–they have were going to rent a plane or helicopter first to get something to put them to sleep and they would go in and bring them out because if that’s what they are going to do, you know, Jim knows the something that it would be a mass murder and would look bad on his country–he would let people come in and take him.
I think my mind is something from telling all this stuff…
Vee agrees…
(laughter)
And this girl said that all she wanted to do was just die because she could not believe that Jim would do–that he was doing all these things.
That’s bad.
And everybody over there is so scared and working from 5:30 to 6 in the PM.
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pg 9
Work that much–what are they going to work on? We’ve got land, but we haven’t got that much land… every day?
And she said when it its a good job is when you get black around the eyes and tired. When you do a good job when you’re really tired like that. (pause)
That’s bad.
I’ve got some more stuff, but I can’t tell you right now ’cause I’m not sure. I’m going to waite. I’m have to waite two weeks ‘scause I don’t want to be saying something I don’t know what I’m talking about. I have to waite. You see I dno’t want to say it, but I guess it was something that I was by just talking to somebody, they were telling me what they were going to do, and they said in two weeks, and I waite in two weeks, and I’ll see what’s going to happen.
Somebody is going over there–I think all out of my something.
DId they say who was going?
Yes, Monica Peterson.
Did she contact someone?
She wants to go over ethere–I don’t know whether she’s got a picture of what about–a picture from her son and the baby, and she didn’t like the way they looked. And she is trying to get over there.
So we will know in two weeks if she’s going.
Did she turn in her passport or something.
No, she has her passport.
No, but she does not want to go through the church. She is going to contact–talk to the President. What she thinks she is going to do something nobody else can do–I don’t know. And she’s going to go in there…
Fanny Mobley told you this?
Yes, somebody–well you see I’ve just what you see I have to build my confidense soethat she will start telling me–she said that a girl told her that Monica Peterson–the girl–I don’t know the girl. I want to waite and ifnd out, she was going because she didn’t like the way the baby’s face looked and her son. She got a picture or something from overthere, and she didn’t like the way they looked. She said–My memory is getting so good!
Ernest Jones and his wife, before they left, and she said that she called them up and begged them not to go over there, and she was telling them what it was like over ethere because she knows that Earnest and his wife will be dressed and wear fine clothes and that they were packing up all their stuff all these suitcases. She said that a girl told them that their money was still in SF now
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- 10
She said that she begged them not to go because she knew that they were going to go over there and be dissappointed.
Everybody over there is satisfied.
They had a deadline–they had to get out of here no later than September.
You’ve got to be kidding…
Somebody told her–this came from San Francisco–said that they had to be out of here no later than September because Jim is going to turn loose 5 horses of the something laughter And one of these horses represents something
Vee: then you haven’t got any problem…
That’s what I’m telling you–in September is the deadline–Jim is going to turn loose the 5 horses of the something (same as above) and said that the reason why he had to use these effects is to scare the people something because if the people a prayer they wouldn’t something him, so he has to use earthquakes and hunger and slavery and concentration camps to scare them. because if they didn’t believe in him they wouldn’t follow him. So he has to use that.
September that’s what he told the people–September. September is the last because they are going to turn this place upside down.
Waite let me tell you about these 5 horses. One of these horses represents earthquake, another one is fire, and then the other one water, hunger–hell if you burned up and washed up, how in the hell can you be hungry?
laughter…
And how can you get hungry? and all these dance pipes going to be broken and burning. Well, once the place isn turned upside down, could you be hungry or know that you were burning? And then you are going to be put in concrentration camps. If the place is turned upside down and you’re going under there cann’t be a concentration camp.
There won’t be anybody put in it…
No, how are you going to put somebody in it? When you are through this thing–you’re living and coming to him because he is god. This girl was over there trying to interview him, and they had a big mess about that. They kept her in somewhere for two weeks.
The reporter?
Yes, and he finally denyed that he was god or ever said that he was god weather he ever burned up a Bible or weather he ever said that the Bible was a lie.
She asked him one time, you know, and he said she asked him why when the white murderers and tell them to quote the bible, why did he tell them to quote the bible when they aren’t supposed to read the bible? And he said to shut up and don’t ask questions–it’ll bring sickness to you
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pg 12
And she said she told Jim that if it brings sickness, then there were a lot of people in this world that should be dead. You know, for reading the bible.
That’s what Debbie said?
That’s what Debbie told Fanny. Said that everybody should be dead from reading the bible. if it brings sickness. And Debbie said that she knows that if you believe what a person tells you, it can really exist. If a person told you that you were going to walk out at 6 o’clock and you believed that you were going to walk out at 6 o’clock and somebody was going to run over you, you could go out and your nerves would be so bad that you would actually get run over. She said that she has learned so much from being in the Temple–she said that she would rather be dead than to find out that Jim had done all this. to the members. kAll of them wanted to come out of there.
I don’t think they are getting paid.
I think that a lot of those members just like Fanny said, they are working and they are contributing money towards this. And like all this liturature and stuff they are getting up here to send to the President, they are paying for it themselves.
Maybe not that part (Vee)
Oh no honey, they have asked now for money and give whatever you can because they want to charter this plane to go over there. They want to charter this plane to go over there but first they have to get this helicopter to go in and drop this sleep on them–whatever it is–and then they go in and bring the people out. But Tim Stoen said (told) Fanny that he didn’t think that he know that Jim would rather be dead than come back here, and before he come, he would take his own life. Jim said that before they would let them take him, he would tie a rock to his neck and go down to the deepest ocean. He would not come back here.
I know the whole mess is so twisted around first Jim would take his own life and thenthey are programmed to kill each other.
I think that they programmed their own minds–you know that?
Oh, and over there when you’re married, you don’t sleep with your husband.
You don’t?
Oh, no you don’t. Like you leave and you have a wife that’s going through her menopause, and your husband’s young, he is supposed to go out with the young girls and get babys. And the girls can go out and do whatever they want and raise up with nature.
That’s insane.
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pg 13
Tim Stoen said that Jim lied when he told them about the nature tree where you go over and there is this tree where you eat for your nature–the bark off this tree. That there is a tree with icecream coming out of it and all them niggers left with spoons and cups going over there to get this icecream. This whole thing would make you vomit, Vee.
No, thisis a fairy tale–you read about these things in books and you see movies about it, but not in real life, you don’t hear tell of stuff like this. I doubt very much if the people that are listening to all this television station and stuff that have them on they don’t believe–they think that these people are absolutly bezerk. That they are going berzerk.
Its unbelievable.
That they are going over to get this icecream and said that Jim told them that when you get there there is no more sickess, no more death, no more hunger, no more pain. and everybody over there is sick. Brother [Tommy] Keaton has had surgery, Jim told them that the only way he wanted them to keep in touch–now first he said that you’re not supposed to keep in touch at all with your family, so now she said that you have to keep in touch with your family just in case you’ve got money. To make out their will and everything like that and then you turn it over to the cause.
Too much…
I guess the little girl, Steve’s [Steven Katsaris] daughter, and John John [John Victor Stoen], Tim Stoen’s son are living with Jim, and there is another girl And John is so confused that he is calling Marie [Maria Katsaris]–that’s her name–calling Marie mama.
Too much…
I’ll tell you one thing–you’re mind is walking tape recorder.
I told you that girl. Couldn’t nobody pay me, nobody could come to me and say now Carrie, I’ll give you–I don’t care what they offer me, I couldn’t tell it to the members–that’s why I tell you to never repeat this–only you and you will really start going backwards. I guess if I were weak, I would too. You know, people could find me out. But you see that I’m not for sale.
I’m not for sale. I can’t be bought.
I mean the thing is Vee if there was somebody a dodo like me, a dummy, just walked in there off of the street, I was never under Jim’s teaching–does it take you 20 years to learn a person–or 8 years?
No.
Now if I were doing something like that the way you were saying, she don’t know because she was never under his teachings, but somebody else you would think that they would know better.