[Editor’s note: There are several codes in this document. Mary Ruth is Paula Adams, Mr. Hill is Jim Jones, and Mr. X is Guyana’s ambassador to the US, Laurence “Bunny” Mann, with whom Paula Adams had a long-term relationship. The initials “BM” also refer to Mann.]
D-2-A-5
Note from Paula Adams to Jim Jones about documented conversations, June 1977
TO: MR. HILL [Jim Jones]
FROM: MARY RUTH [Paula Adams]
JUNE 7, 1977
I just spoke to the man you respect so much on the telephone as the letter was submitted less than one hour ago. He asked for me, asked how I was and then asked how the conversations were “documented.” I said, “By tape.” He said, “Good, good, good.” He then asked if it was recent I said, “When he came down for Claude Worrell’s funeral.” He said, “Good, good, good.” He then asked me when the Bishop will be coming down. I said, “The end of June or the first of July.” He said, “Good, good, good.” I told him I would give the tapes to the man I owe my life to. He said, “All right.”
That was all of the conversation. He sounded very pleased.
There was a paragraph in the letter which said I will continue with the project unless he advised me otherwise. I forgot to mention it on the telephone and he did not say anything to the contrary, so I suppose that means I should pursue it for the one aspect of illegality in exchanging foreign dollars. I imagine more material on an even more recent basis would be helpful to him. Please advise, as the diplomat I am referring to will be in town on June 12th. Should I proceed or not?
I was relieved to get his call, because I thought I had totally bungled the whole thing and made you out to look like a fool. The material accumulated is disgusting, but not unusual, so I wasn’t sure if he would find it useful.
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D-2-a-6a
[Editor’s note: As Paula Adams explains in the note that follows, the transcript below is a slight variation on notes made by Paula Adams on the same conversation, that appears here.
(This is a completed transcription of the tapes which document the statements. Please excuse the previous one which was both incomplete and had several typing errors. I was trying to finish it for that meeting in a rush and did not take time to correct mistakes.)
COMPLETE TAPE QUOTES FROM LETTER DATED JUNE 7, 1977. Submitted June 23, 1977.
Hey, Fred [Wills, Guyana Minister of Foreign Affairs]. Yes and tell her that there are no vacancies. I can only hope that some other mission will contact us. Sorry that we couldn’t have the girl, but we’re fully staffed. I had a long talk with Corbin and Winnie Aagard. I told them that what we should do is move very slowly. Try to make interim arrangements until we get someone adequate for a whole lot of reasons. [Claude] Worrell was fairly unique because he was a lawyer trained in American law and went to school in Washington, and knew all the judges. In the US, you can ring up the judge beforehand and tell him that one of your nationals is appearing beforehand and he’ll tell you what the sentence is going to be or whether he will let him off. It is simple as that. I said that Prior and I will try to do all national’s complaints, and with political work, insofar as making speeches and so on. I’ll simply go and do it. As long as it is in the interim. You see, one of the problems is that Worrell was virtually an embassy within an embassy, and if we put in anyone who was less able than he, you’ll create an awful lot of friction. Secondly, I know some things you can’t find in a week or two, that kind of person. There were two people I suggested that I like, and one of them is big fat Leon Dundas from Springlands and the other is brown-skinned chap named Hutton, but not as permanent, but to do something with the nationals. Both are pretty convincing speakers, and they could do some of the political work. That is half the problem, they wouldn’t. It seems to me that Hutton or Dundas would be the kind of person to do the political work. They could act in some capacity or other. I don’t want Winnie Aagard or Corbin to surprise me. Let’s keep in touch.
Essentially, he heard I was here, and just wanted to have a chat and ask how I found things up there and little things very nice here. He said there were two things which were a little difficult for him: the ILO thing and I see in the papers that we’re not doing anything so that seems to be the end of that and the second
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was that he thought we were carrying the Cuban vote (or ball) in Delhi on the Puerto Rican independence issue (he is talking about John Blacken, Charge d’Affaires of the US Embassy), so I told him that this is not true, that I have talked to the participants and to the contrary, we were extremely low keyed. It is wrong information. He promised to show you the cables he got out of New Delhi. I think Rashleigh [Jackson, Guyana Foreign Minister] should make a point to talk to Andrew Young [U.S. Ambassador to United Nations] about it. So there are several points of contradiction. Surinam is getting pressure we are getting because people are saying look what happened. They are saying that these fellows were saying that they wouldn’t fly a kite for Puerto Rican independence and look what they think. And it is simply not true. And I’m going to make a point of… I’m going to try to get hold of Habib. He did mention that he had put up his request for lots of things. I said that I was glad to hear it, and what did he think would come out of it? And he said he didn’t think that balance of payments, you know, cash flow on the loan, but some other form of assistance. He said they would probably put a package together. Then he talked about the state of the economy, what I thought, and what he thought. I didn’t even know that he had seen the chief. I don’t remember what day I saw him, on Tuesday or something. They can’t have it both ways. They are saying that a lot of the Senators in Congress want to ensure that the US system of economic assistance doesn’t go to line the pockets of [the] elite of developing countries, on the other hand when you set out to create a society, they say the elite no longer exists and they say it is socialist or communist. That’s a fairly thin point. I’m very excited about the prospects of Habib coming and I know he’ll have a good visit. This is all very tentative and you mustn’t repeat it because only you and the chief know. He said that he would leave Washington about a week before the Grenada meeting of the OAS which begins in the second week, so we are really talking about a couple of weeks. As soon as I get back to Washington, I’ll try to get in touch with him and find out from him what’s happening. You don’t plan to go there, of course, to Grenada. He is going to be there and so is Vance [US Secretary of State Cyrus Vance]. I think the meeting is definitely to happen.
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(Other talk about foreign affairs.) I mean if the chief changes his mind that is his entitlement, but that doesn’t mean we can’t get an account. What are the chief’s plans, to bring them here, definitely? Long discussion continues on foreign affairs. He suggested to Minister Wills go back to the Prime Minister and straighten out the importance of the Brussels mission needing an Ambassador.
You think things have gone three cents free here. I remember the days when Burnham used to say, “His aim was to give every poor man a car.” He said, “Tax big cars or a big Dodge like mine. Little cars like an Austin should be tax-free or duty cut, you know a car is a necessity or a reasonable social ambition in a country where you don’t have this and that… Where you can take the family for a drive.” Which was nice talk, or a nice idea. Now look what little 4-cylinder car costs, $23,000 for a Gallant or thing. They ain’t got no clerk who can buy that’s for sure. A lot of rich people won’t buy it either and that you can’t get any at all. Unfortunately, men are judged on their performance, not their words. Socialist theories are very nice, but they’ve got to work. They apply to people. Nobody is satisfied that they are on the road to socialism if one day they can see ahead of the road is hunger, cars going up more, their expectation to own a car vanishes. Houses are out of sight. A theory has got to work in practice. Good intentions are not enough, Paula, nobody is going to fault the Prime Minister or Dr. Reid [Ptolemy Reid, Deputy Prime Minister of Guyana], for their good intentions to help the poor man, but you can’t just have a good intention and see the means of achievement are going wrong and you just remain with the good intentions. You’re mad! You can’t get the food to eat, the next thing we ration is clothing, including footwear. Look at the price of electricity for your house. Petrol you can’t get, that is the oil crisis, the subsidy had to come off flour, different things. Something is wrong with planning. When things get hard, the harder things get, the more elitist society becomes, because a plutocracy, a rich class, Neil, Rex, Joe Chin, who will never suffer, they get richer,
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They can travel when they like, they can do what they like, and the scarcity only the rich can afford. ME [Paula Adams]: “They don’t travel much anymore, they don’t have any dollars to get out of the country.” BM’s reply: “Who says so? What’s wrong with you? You mad or something? That’s only what you think.” Then after the wealthy, the politically powerful. They are out scotching the house when poor people and other people can’t get. They’ll always have things and clothing in their house when other people can’t have [it], and they will justify it on the grounds that they are working for the people and they should have it if they need something.
Did you go to the Prime Minister’s May Day speech? (BM is asking me this question) He said that he heard there was a lot of booing. I asked, “Why?” He said, “Because people are out of work, the cost of living is very high.”
I said to BM, “It sounds like you’re ready to come home.” BM’s reply, that the only position I could come home as is Prime Minister.” “I was to be prime minister, first among equals.”
Joe said they got a game. It’s a nice form of relaxation.
I said, “It is a very funny form of relaxation for a socialist.”
He said, “I don’t understand what my playing poker has to do with being a socialist. I’m not trying to rob anybody, just playing a game. You find the stakes large, you could easily play poker for pennies. It’s just that I don’t know how to play poker for pennies. If that is the limit that you can afford. Anybody can afford to stick around for 20 cents, that ain’t anything. How much you going to lose, $20? That ain’t anything.”
I said, “Twenty dollars, to me, is a lot of money.”
He said, “Last night they had bets for a thousand dollars. The best one I
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made was for $850.
I said, “I don’t understand how you can afford to play. Does the Prime Minister know you play poker?”
He said, “Yes.” “I can afford this game easily. I ain’t a poor man. I never have been and probably never will be. There was a time when people played less poker here when there was more to do. Now what you going to do. There isn’t very much activity. People don’t invest in houses, not much building. Businesses aren’t much. Except you put your money in a bank there isn’t anything for people to do like they used to: excursions, travel are not easy. The human system must find some way of relaxing itself and one way is for “people of means” to play poker, or something else. Whatever it is, I find poker to be a pretty harmless form of relaxation as long as you can afford it. You sit for hours with big men, you’re out of everybody’s way, out of danger of accidents and gossip.”
“If you don’t think your appearance is important to your job, I told you one year ago that in this country your appearance is important. You don’t see how Rai dresses? When I go to the Town Hall. From the time I go in there, they know it’s “somebody,” the way I look, the way I dress, I don’t look like the next man coming off the street. The same with Rai, when she goes to the Corentyne, she doesn’t look like any coolie girl coming to the Corentyne, the way she dresses, the way she looks. And that’s important in a country like this.”
I said, “Looks, appearance, everything is appearance.”
He said, “Well, it’s important.”
I said, “It’s important to you.”
He said, “You know in the country, I don’t go around the country looking like a Jesus freak as a government ambassador.”
I said, “I don’t think there is one thing socialist about you.”
He said, “The socialist revolution? You think that I was going to punish, that I’m going to go around walking around the street like Saul.?”
I said, “You told me yourself but that was nothing but eating money. You were talking
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about $2,000 to $3,000 dollars and you said yourself that that was nothing but eating money.”
He said, “What else can $2000 buy. I’m not poor, I sit around playing poker. What else [is] $2000 going to bring? You can open a business with that? Or take off with that? I spend that much in a month.”
I said, “You may spend more than not in a month, but a lot of people don’t see more than that in a year.”
When the Prime Minister said, “The girl from Peoples Temple.” What did you say? (This was my question to BM.)
He said, “I didn’t say anything. I was thrown a little bit. I don’t remember. We were walking toward the car. I must have said something like, “Oh, how do you know?” He said (the PM.), “Nothing escapes your Father’s attention, son.”
I said, “What do you think he will think me being from the states?”
He said, “What should I do, write him a letter asking his permission?” “I stopped thinking about that past detail about [what] Georgetown society thinks. They have no further shocks to receive from me. I’ve done everything. I’ve been brilliant, I’ve been unconventional, I’ve been witty, I’ve been maudlin. I’ve done it all. I’ve broken up marriages, I’ve done the lot. There are no further shocks. I’ve shown I’m very good, I’m ultra sophisticated, ultra intelligence, ultra wealth, I’ve done the lot. There’s nothing left. There’s nothing left to shock people.”
I said, “I would think there would be some concern about your girlfriend being from the US.”
[Tape 5, Side 1] He said, “A third party is not going to run my life. Two parties, that’s an agreement. I don’t want to hear ‘what people say’ or ‘what people think’.”
“I said, “With an egalitarian consciousness, what kind of a statement is that?”
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BM said, “I’m just telling you what it’s like. I’m just telling you why don’t these women marry Black men who can’t afford to support them.
I said, “He seems fairly capable.”
BM said, “Who?”
I said, “Corbin.” [Robert Corbin, Minister of State for the Ministry of National Development]
BM laughed to himself, and said, “At doing what? Capable of doing what?”
I said, “Organizing, enthusiasm.”
BM said, “Yes, for what?”
I said, “I often think that loyalty is far more important than skills.”
BM said, “The problem with most developing countries. They put the emphasis on the wrong things.”
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Pages D-2-a-7a – 7d duplicate D-2-a-6a – 6d
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D-2-A-8A
[handwritten notation] Submitted to Dr. Reid June 21, 1977
Conversation #1
June 15, 1977
Mr. X asked me to take these notes for him. I did not know at the time what relevance the notes possessed. Later I was to discover from conversations that these notes pertain to the discussion to be held with Philip Habib, U.S. Under-secretary of State.
- Intra Party Scenario
- Inter Party Scenario
III. Philosophy and R/EV Strategy-U.S. of A.
- Caricom-Guyana’s role:
- Historical
- Present
- Projected
- Non-alignment
- 1. Present
- Projected
- Role of U.S. of A.
- Economy-serious but manageable, external finances needed, sources important to future policy, manageable once external finance received
VII. General International Affairs-
- South Africa
- Korea
- Puerto Rico
- Ethiopia
- Somalia
- USSR/Cuba/China/Mideast/U.N.
VIII. Human Rights – press freedom, Nielsen ratings, ownership of media, political, economic & cultural rights, magna carta rights of bourgeoisie, political prisoners,
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Mirror, post of Leader of the Opposition, facilities therefore, consultations therewith, in train presently. Post Vance/Hussain.
- Creole Sayings
- Sugar – Gavin
- Other economy discussions – other relevant ministers
XII. NUJ/MPO Rights of privileged white minorities in U.K.
Conversation #2
This is a conversation Mr. X had over the telephone with the Prime Minister while I was present. “The P.M., please.” “Hi comrade, I’m just calling to tell you about something you wanted me to remind you about, the newsletter. It will cost us one thousand American a month we are talking about 6 months of continuous publication or we’re talking about G$15,000. That’s one. Secondly, you might wonder is that…Dr. Reid or Corbin, so that they don’t think we are stalling or malingering; the question of Vic Persaud that I raised with you last night, if he agrees, that’s it. What about the name, last night you told me about the name and I told you Leon Dundas. Do you want me to find out sort of obliquely?”
Conversation #3
Mr. X repeatedly makes criticisms about living conditions in Guyana. He has made bitter complaints about the low water pressure and the electricity being cut off occasionally and the shortage of certain foodstuff. He said, “We don’t get water; no electricity after twelve. The only thing we haven’t been visited with yet is bubonic plague.” Identifying with a certain amount of personal sacrifices for the well-being of many should be a requirement of any socialist leader, but I have never gotten this impression from Mr. X. He is preoccupied with money and the comforts he feels are reasonable expectations such as “a big expensive and fairly exclusive airconditioned sedan and a sportscar.” We talked about the difficulty Mr. X would
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have in returning to Guyana to live with his predisposition for comfort. I asked him how he would adjust. He said, “With a sense of privation.”
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