Q589 Transcript

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.

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To read the Tape Summary, click here. Listen to MP3 (Side 1, Side 2).

Jones: — talking about—

Man: — communicating with her on that level.

Jones: She knows news and aware that she’s not—

Man: Yeah, I think she has got that awareness.

Jones: —she hadn’t got her head in the sand. Okay. Well, we can debate that. It’s not that’s audible anyway, they say, in Marceline’s house.

Inaudible reply.

Jones: In our house there, it’s not that audible. Okay, well, I think we may take a chance. (Pause) Anybody have ob— any objections? We need somebody to go back that can meet the press.

General hubbub.

Jones: ‘Cause you got reason not to go back there and lie. Either she’s not principled — she got two kids — and if (stumbles for words) the Olivers [Howard and Beverly Oliver, members of Concerned Relatives]— if we— we— now see, that’s what— we hadn’t done anything to met with the Olivers, but those sons-a-bitches were crazy. They didn’t want to meet. They wanted to cause all kinds of shit. We— we are not fools. We would have done anything to kept some kind of rapport with them. But they insisted on kidnapping married people. That’s how damn dumb foolish they were. ‘Cause we would’ve rather had them on a talking relationship, even though we didn’t like them— Even after what they did to Marceline, we still were trying to work out the goddamn thing some way, but those people— those people were paid, just like they said on that radio. She slipped and said that money involved. Twenty-five hundred dollars she mentioned, I believe it was a sum. Twenty-five hundred dollars, what a— Sell your children out for twenty-five hundred dollars. That’s— There’s too mu— That’s the trouble with a lot of relatives, yours— she doesn’t sound like that, rule or ruin. Either they got you under the nose 24 hours a day, or they’ll ruin you. But she doesn’t sound that way, because you been gone for nine months. She may possessive, all relatives are. And as your brother said, (unintelligible word) more interest in you than anything else. Because you marry her narcissism, and uh, that— you’re part of her extensions of hers, possessions. Uh, but uh, she’s not as possessive— but the Olivers was under the rule, had to be under the rule for 24 hour— and there more to it than that, don’t make any sense. They knew they weren’t going to win. They knew they weren’t going to win. They were told by the ambassador, they were stupid, they were told that they were cutting off their uh, nose to spite their face, there was money. ‘Course we know he’d been in a crime racket, Johnny [most likely Johnny Jones] had been— worked with him, he knew what kind of shit he was pulling.

Johnny: (comes in from off mike) —It was everything from bookies to running stolen credit cards, stel— selling liquor to po— police, taking and receiving stolen goods from police, selling stolen goods, um, he um, he even dealt in po— pornography.

Man off mike: Perfect agent. Perfect agent.

Johnny: So, uh—

Man: No morals. So he’s a perfect agent. Sell out his own children.

Jones: Twenty-five hundred dollars awful cheap, I would agree, Bates. Well, I think that’s what we’re gonna try to do. I think we’ll bring her in here, because I don’t like Georgetown with no lights. She gonna wonder what the fuck is going on out here, if there’s no lights in Georgetown.

General hubbub.

Jones: (High laugh) What’d you say?

Woman talking too far away from mike.

Jones: Yeah, that’ll be good.

General hubbub.

Jones: Well, we’ll fix that up, ‘n little snacks for her, find out what she likes, ‘n send her back. She can be a good P.R. person for us. If the shooting goes on, just say you’re hunting, that’s all. I don’t know. Shit. I don’t— Anything can happen out (unintelligible word), I’m gonna tell you. If we conduct the goddamn war, and you just keep her interested till they’re out there hunting, and there’s a tiger or some— (laughs).

General hubbub.

Jones: They damn near got in Charles Garry’s house, they almost had a raid getting his house, the sonofabitch, we made it through that. (Laughs). He thought it was paradise, (Laughs) didn’t he? He left and wrote in an article, it was paradise—

Man: We walked him through the jungle in the rain.

Jones: (Laughs) Walked him in the rain. He— Shit, he— he— to miss things, he was— he— oh, well, that’s something else. Our life is in the book. Okay. Have any second thoughts, anybody have any questions about it, let us know. I’d say, bring her in.

Woman: It would be better for them to meet her and bring her in.

Jones: No, no no. Why— why— why the expense of going in? What the hell the expense? (stumbles for words) They’ll take, pick her up, pick her up, and take her there and put her on an airplane. If she times it right, they ought not— they ought to tell her to time it right, so she’ll have a couple days waiting there. That’s one thing, you ought to be on the phone. Time it right, so she don’t get hooked on two days in Georgetown. I don’t mean hooked on it, I mean, just hooked— hanged— hung on it.

Marceline: Do you know the exact date she’s supposed to arrive in Georgetown?

Answer too soft. — she’s leaving on the 21st?

Jones: She’s leaving the 21st?

Marceline: So she’ll get in there the 22nd.

Jones: What is the 22nd? (stumbles over words) The flights come, what? Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday?

Marceline: Wait, wait, I’ve got a calendar here. Just a minute.

Someone else talks

Jones: What?

General noise

Male: No, what days do the, do the flights come in?

Jones: I’m talking about the flights.

Male: What day they getting to Georgetown?

Woman: What time is it?

Marceline: When do they leave from Georgetown to here, is that what you’re talking about?

General noise.

Jones: (tired voice) I didn’t— Damn it, I (unintelligible word) sonofabitching White Night ends before she— (deep breath)

Marceline: What day’s she leaving?

Woman: 21st.

Marceline: 21st is Friday. So she’d be coming in here on Saturday— into Georgetown on Saturday.

Jones: Unn-unn (no).

Marceline: Saturday night, so that she doesn’t leave early Monday morning.

Jones: She’ll have to stay Sunday. She can leave Monday, but that’s not too long.

Marceline: That’s just one day. She’ll probably want to sleep all that day anyway. (Laughs) From jet lag.

Jones: Yeah, that’ll be good. Just rest her up on Sunday. (Voice livens) It’s a nice place. There’s one room there, it’s air-conditioned, as I remember, in Georgetown. (Pause) Okay, good enough. That’s what we’ll do. Inform Georgetown accordingly. They— They— Inform them on that, that’s what our plans are. We’re talking about telephone, we would have in the middle of a White Night. No radio. (Pause) Okay. (Pause) Any little things that she likes, please give us all of her eccentricities, will you? She don’t like cats, or she don’t like this, or she don’t like that, well, I mean every little thing she don’t like, please let us know, hear?

Male: Molly’s writing them—

Jones: You got— you hear me, all of you?

Male: She go— she goes back and comes (unintelligible) for us and wanted— everybody’s relatives think, then they can come over here and see their people.

Jones: Yeah, well, that’s all right, everybody’s relatives may think they can come over here and see them, but everybody’s relatives may not get over here, because we may have a, an airplane strike, or we may have a mud slide, or tiger loose—

Marceline: (off mike) (unintelligible name — probably Karen?) would you give her that information?

Jones: Said other relatives will think that their relatives have a right to come. (slight sarcasm) We’re not bringing this person because she’s a relative, dear. (Pause) So this isn’t open season for all relatives. ‘Co— we can’t go through this night and day. She’s upon us. She’s already on us. You understand what I’m saying? We’ll have to wait till we get some shi— some damn controls over there, then we can bring people. Right now, it’s survival. She paying her way, and she bringing medical things to donate to the place, and that will help us, thermometers for you that we all need badly, and other things. So, we’ll use the situation that’s upon us. We’re not inviting her, she’s coming. So we make the best of it, you see. And when the next person dawns on us like that, they’re coming, then we’ll have to decide how we do— cope with that. But I don’t think we— Everybody surely understands that we can’t now automatically say this is everybo— every relative come. Shit, I’d rather have a White Night than have— to— to put on— ‘cause we’re gonna be under pressure, all the time the woman’s here, we’re gonna be under pressure that some sonofabitch won’t come up to her (Pause) and say something. You know we are.

Scattered: Right.

General crowd noise off mike.

Jones: It’s a point, darling (Darlene?), but I— I— I— I don’t w— see the point. Her point is, if Yvette’s mother goes back and— Sandra’s mother to the States for uh, P.R. purposes and tells everybody how beautiful it is when she finds it will be here, as it is, then won’t everybody’s relatives think they can just pack up and come see their relatives, then won’t we have chaos, because we’ll have a million thinking (stumbles over words) then on our backs about coming over here, and all these points, the point, (unintelligible phrase) discuss it, but— we got the woman coming and, by God, in Georgetown, I just thought we could use the wom— use it. Uh, but we need some P.R. They’re lying, and we got nobody to— but somebody’s that connected with us, tell ‘em, this woman not a member of our church. That’s the advantage of it. And she not our lawyer. We need somebody that ain’t seen this place, that can talk about the beauty of it, that (struggles for words) they can’t say, well, we’re paying ‘em. They can say that too, but it’s not going to have as much effect with a woman who’s not ever been a member of church and attended just a few times.

Woman in crowd: Can we send pictures back with her?

Jones: Sure. Ought to. Ought to send pictures back.

Another woman: (fades in) I think there’s many of those (unintelligible word— suckers?), they don’t want to pay their own way, even if they did belong to the church.

Marceline: I think —

Jones: What’s that?

Marceline: I think that is a point. I don’t think they’re too many of them that’ll want to pay their own way, and she has an advantage in that her husband works for an airlines — is that right? — and others don’t have that advantage, and I don’t think there’ll be the onslaught— (short laugh) Well. I think maybe we can— I think maybe we can talk to her about how to handle this.

Jones: I— I think that you— there ought to be said that they, that uh, she ought to say that we uh, don’t have our guest housing yet, but uh, she’s staying with her— with her family and uh, I don’t— I don’t know what the hell to say about that. Shit. But it— It isn’t her business. She won’t have to worry about that. We just say that we just can’t bring in a lot of people, that they say that they naturally (Pause) — uh, though I’m not a member of that church, they’ve had people try to infiltrate them, that’ve conspired, and they ac— actually tried to do them harm, came in to shoot, and so they’re careful about who comes. I think that’s damn— that gives us a damn clear message to be careful. We can work on how we say it. (Long pause) Too bad we can’t bring 15 folks and get it over with one time. (Pause) Hmm?

General crowd noise and conversation.

Man in crowd: What about rally nights?

Second man: No—

Jones: What is it?

Second man: —about rally nights.

Woman: Rally nights.

Third man: What about the rally nights?

Second man: — have a program—

Jones: Well, she uh, she can uh—

Second man: — have a program—

Jones: —having have agriculture and uh, some rally nights, (unintelligible phrase) and M— Marceline or the family can— they can down there and entertain her while we’re having uh— ‘cause she sh— won’t hear the rally night down there. We can have an— we can have an entertainment night, she’ll sure like that. Movies. Movies, she’ll like that.

Marceline: Yeah I would— I would like for the family to, you know—

Jones: Be sure to put some mosquito spray— ‘cause we didn’t used to have mosquitoes. Do you realize we didn’t have mosquito, one? Just a few months ago, and now we got mosquitoes. Which is a dreadful shame. But um— We ought, I think, put some sprays so that— what? What?

Voice too soft.

Jones: Marceline says she had no mosquitoes down there, but anyway, there are some— There are some. When you go to the movies, there are some. When I been moderating the movies, these little fuckers like the movies.


Man: Gotta wear socks—

Tape cuts off, probably only a few seconds.

Marceline: Alan, I would like to say that I’d like for Sandra and Yvette and Julius and the family and whoever to feel free to use the front porch down there, and they can— they can entertain her there, freely, unless— sometimes during the day I use that porch for meetings, but I’ll keep from that from happening. I don’t want it to become a general announcement that everybody comes in here is going to move in and live with Mother. ‘Cause, um—

Jones: You shouldn’t even tell her she living with Mother.

Marceline: (Sighs) I do—

Jones: She has lived in a nice house.

Marceline: I do a lot of work, and um— during those two weeks I mentioned, some of it’ll be pr— I can put it off or go someplace else—

Jones: You’re out, that’s important (stumbles over words for several words) She’ll go back, and they’ll— somebody’ll— somebody— even though she’ll be honest about it, they’ll say, (mimicry) well, that’s a nicer house. That’s all. They got a pa— They got a me— They got an estate, and everybody else is living in a hut. (Speaks quickly) That’s the way they always do, that shit. (Pause) People’re liars, and they, they specialize in lying. I wish somebody someplace in the world would specialize in the truth like they specialize in lying.

Crowd: Right.

Jones: Mar— Mother didn’t even ask for that. The last— they had it— Lisa, and Lisa wanted her to have it. Lisa’s the one that had the house, now she intended to have it for, from then on. Lisa and Sister Perkins and— Lisa and um— (clicks lips) no no no no.

Prompts from crowd

Jones: Huh? Cher— Oh yeah, yeah. Cheryl. Yeah, I— uh, let’s see—

Marceline: As a matter of fact, there was ah, I had to work through a lot of emotional adjustment, because that’s where I’d been to see my mother-in-law. And for a while it was—

Jones: (Marceline talks over first short sentence) Let’s don’t get into that.

Marceline: Okay. But anyway, um— (Pause) She’s welcome. That’s all I can say, but I wouldn’t want it to be public knowledge— (Voice breaks off with emotion)

Jones: The whole fact was, we wanted to watch, after (unintelligible word — having?) cancer, that’s uh, that’s why Lisa’s over there, she went through that in (unintelligible word), we wanted to have an air-conditioner available, and we wanted to be— Marceline there for the same reason, to observe, ‘cause the air conditioner makes things easier if it has to be used, but she don’t even use the air conditioner either.

One voice: Right.

Jones: Neither did Lisa. (Pause) I don’t know if we had no gas, I never heard the thing on. (Pause) You haven’t had it on one time either, no, I know. That’s why it’s there. That wasn’t built for us. That was built for that purpose.

Voice too soft.

Jones: What’s that?

Woman: Too bad you couldn’t have mansion, you both deserve it.

Jones: Yeah, that’s sweet of you, that’s sweet of you. (Pause) I’d just like have ah, uh, six months with no White Nights. (Laughs) I’d settle for six months, living in a swamp on a— on a boat bare-assed.

General hubbub.

Jones: But it’ll come through, we’ll come through. Hell, we went several months with relatively peace. Things come in cycles.

One voice: Right

Jones: There’s a way out of the morass, but we gotta start talking now about the shit. Gotta look at every a— odd— (Pause) Just say that, uh, just explain that, uh, that, that I’m out in the fucking fields. Tell her that, that’s a good point.

Voices too soft.

Jones: I’ve explained— I— I’ve explained, it’s a— it’s the uh, house where we put people who have any lung problem for the time being and so, that’s— that the hi— that’s the situation.

Voices too soft.

Jones: Yeah, yeah, if people have it— difficulty breathing, then every other disease is in good shape here, and it is. Arthritis does better, heart does better, everything does better. Blood pressure. (Pause)

Man: (fades in from off mike) I think you ought to control the situation here.

Jones: Of course the Olivers’ brothers would be among the few people who would be talking to her. Well, that’s true. They should— (unintelligible word) helping to convince her that their grandmother’s saying (unintelligible phrase) lying, and this would be living proof, the example that their lives here are very happy ones. (Pause) Okay. (Pause)

Marceline: (off mike) I know one thing, uh. (on mike) She uh— She is uh— I’m impressed that if she talked to the Olivers’ grandmother and is willing to wait this long to see Yvette, because when I called to have a phone patch with her, and she was at work when she— we had the phone patch, and she broke down and cried and she said, you have made my day. She was so touched and so happy to be able to talk to Yvette over the phone, and as uh, attached as she is to Yvette and to wait for two or three months to come and see Yvette after hearing all the negative shit that I know the Olivers gave her, really shows that there is some character in that woman.

Jones: I’d like a word changed. It ain’t negative. It’s lies.

Marceline: Lies is right.

Jones: It’s one thing, I’d like uh— you goddamn people, we say negative shit, because I— these— these people are outrageous. The onl— only truth I ever heard come out of their goddamn mouth was that point, the point that they couldn’t come in here, and that’s the damn truth. We wouldn’t let them in here. We stood up and said to the government, by God, they’re not coming in here, and the government’s s’posed to control who can come in the interior, but we decided on that White Night that we con— we control the interior, ‘cause they didn’t come. They had their charter already arranged, and gonna come in here. They was gonna bombard us with a whole bunch of fucking relatives. Gonna s— There’s land in here in the airstrip, and we said, they do— (short laugh) that’s there’s responsibility. ‘Cause they ain’t coming any further than the gate. (Pause) And that shows you got clout. I mean, that’s what— remember when they going to dump all them fuckers on us?


Jones: They gonna drag in that Mazou [detective Joe Mazor, hired by Concerned Relatives], that criminal, who is organ— organizing the whole thing, that they gave— California— that shows how high your conspiracy is, too, that— you better believe this. Governor [Jerry] Brown passed him on a detective license, he had a 75-page criminal record— some of you better— they— I think we got it in the library, you ought to go and spend some time in the library and read his record. The one that started the conspiracy, that was the front man, that worked with Mertles [Elmer and Deanna Mertles, aka Al and Jeannie Mills, who helped establish Concerned Relatives] when they first started, and Grace [Stoen]. Seventy-five page criminal history. (Incredulous tone) And they gave him a license to be a detective? It’s against the law. And we asked Governor Brown why he did it, and Governor Brown, sellout sonofabitch, said (dramatically) a lot of important people spoke highly of him. (Pause) Didn’t even botter to— bother to address himself to the issue. Let him keep his license, even though we gave him all this evidence. (Stumbles over words) They didn’t let him keep his license, he participated in it. It shows you can’t trust folk. Here a liberal, so-called liberal progressive, who’s been framed himself years ago, said they tried to— (Pause) When New West tried to paint him as a homosexual, and everything else, he sold out, he went along with it. He went along with it. We got the letter somewhere. Somebody ought to dig it out and show you these good, liberal people. Fuck these good, liberal people. I don’t have no faith in any of them. They’re as bad as the fucking fascists. (Pause) Imagine giving a man with 75-page criminal history, when the California law says they cannot ho— be— hold licenses to be a policeman. Imagine giving somebody that’s been in and out of the can for ten years, (pause) in and out of the can on numerous charges, bilking, I don’t know what the hell, fraudulent— forgery. You name it, he did it. He’s done it. Masquerading as a lawyer. Everything. And now he got a license, and all Governor Brown says is several important people came out on his behalf to get his license. Yeah. Several important members of the fascist conspiracy, trying to overthrow the United States. Wake up, back there, now, some of you folk going to sleep on us, early in the day. (Pause) Yes, uh, Brother Jones.

Young Jones: I— I’d like to say, uh, Dad, if— if you, to uh— you have to be, you know, a very strong person, you know, to be back there and listen to the lies that, that the uh, Olivers, you know, said about this cause. Because if it wasn’t for the fact that I’d been in this cause, you know, as long as I’ve been in, and have known, you know, you and your character, you know, I wouldn’t be standing here today, you know, because just before I came over, uh, I heard, you know, a lot of lies from her, you know, about this cause. She said, you know, things like uh, uh, that Father, you know, didn’t have any power, you know, and uh, how much she wanted her sons, you know, to come back and get, you know, the money that uh— (unintelligible word) that had been waiting for them, you know, and I think she—

Jones: (Unintelligible word of interruption) Yeah, I’ll bet. Waiting for her.

(Soft voice in crowd)

Young Jones: Yeah.

Jones: Umm-hmm.

Young Jones: Yes, that’s that’s—

Jones: That’s just a lie. Those’ll be lie. Anybody can get their money. You can get your money. If there’s money for them, they can get money any place in the world.

Young Jones: That’s true. And um—

Jones: Lawyers can tell you that, that’s a bunch of bullshit.

Young Jones: And you know she played— she— she played— tried to play on, on, on the emotions, you know, on, on my emotions, you know, like about, uh, uh, Billy and uh, you know, Tanya’s uh marriage? She played on that very strong, because she knew how I, you know, felt about Tanya, you know, and um, uh, uh, she tried to make it sound like that— that—

Jones: She tried to get you shook up about that arranged marriage?

Young Jones: Yes. Yes.

Jones: (Laughs) Did you— Did nobody bother to tell you it was an arranged marriage?

Young Jones: Uh, yes, they told me, uh—

Jones: That the church had?

Young Jones: Yeah, Leona [probably Leona Collier], Leona told me, and—

(Jones and Brother Jones talk over each other)

Jones: Hell, we was finding— we could find— we could find the first woman that would be agreeable, and she was a principled woman in this, and we got— (Short laugh) and we were getting fast around here, honey.

Young Jones: Yeah. (Laugh)

General laughter.

Jones: I can assure you, it was just paper, that’s all.

General conversation.

Jones: Well, it’s awful hard when she were— if it were somebody you were— and if it were somebody you were infatuated with, honey, that’s the biggest test. He’s here.

Young Jones: Yeah. Yeah.

Jones: I wouldn’t be too hard on him. He’s here. He thought it—

Interrupted by quiet voice.

Jones: If you thought your uh, girlfriend (short laugh), somebody you were in love with had married another man— and look at that, how dirty that— look at that dirty bitch. Look how dirty that wo— that bitch is. That’s cold bitch. (Pause) Trying to get you upset, and that means you’d have to be upset with her son, too. (Pause) Dirty bitch. Wicked bitch. (Pause) A conspirator. Somebody’s telling her. She ain’t that clever on her own. They’re telling her where to play the ballgame, trying to get you turned, they’re— they’re right behind them, with money, and instructions.

Young Jones: She said if uh, she said— the thing that she said, she said like uh, uh, uh, uh, you see, you see—

Jones: Let’s hear it. Important—

Young Jones: — you see what they done? She said— she says, uh, they— they took your lady, and made her marry Billy, you know, knowing that me and Billy were, you know, at one time we were very, you know, close in the States.

Jones: Laughs.

Young Jones: And also Ruth (?), we were all close in the States. And she know— knew that fact, so she played on that, you know, she said, if I was you, I wouldn’t go, you know, to Jonestown. I wouldn’t— I wouldn’t have any uh, uh dealings with Jim Jones, you know, she said, but you have your own mind, you know, she say you do what you wanted to.

Jones: (sarcastic) Isn’t she nice? She’s so nice. She gone have her own mind, until we catch her (Laughs)

Crowd: Right. (Applause)

Jones: She better— she better enjoy her life while she can. (Pause) Uh, that ain’t no shit, ain’t it.

Male (Probably either Bruce or Bill Oliver): No shit.

Jones: Here’s her son talking. He’ll— he’ll now address himself to the situation.

Oliver: Uh, first— first of all, wh— what the situation was, when Mom— wh—


Oliver: All right, wh— when my mom came down here, she put Dad through a whole bunch of bullshit, and they demanded to see me, when I didn’t wan—

Interrupted by unintelligible cries from crowd.

Oliver: And um— okay. And they deman— They demanded to see me, when I didn’t want to have no dealings with them. And what they was— And what they did, is they went to the, uh, ambassador of Guyana and tried to put a whole bunch of pressure on Dad, which I didn’t like that— I didn’t even know. And I— I don’t want no dealings with the lady, whatsoever, ‘cause she started whole— she’s— I— I consider her class one enemy of the people, being that she’s my natural mom. I consider her a class one enemy, and uh, as far as me and you, Larry, me and you are still close and stuff, and I— I don’t think they shouldn’t never affect me and you, as far as what she told you. ‘Cause—

Jones: (unintelligible) —you with Cynthia.

Oliver: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, uh—

Man from off mike: That’s right, man.


Oliver: What I meant, uh, uh, it didn’t have— what she said to me didn’t have any effect on my relationship, you know, to this cause, you know, had any effect, any effect—

Jones: I think he was try— I think we tried to be complimentary, that’s why I said to this mother, who’s very principled over here too, bu— Brother Bates, why do you listen, I say, I say, that’s a big ballgame, till you’re in that shit, you don’t know how you gonna affect, and he’s being honest, I don’t think we ought to stomp on somebody. He’s here, and that’s the best proof of the pudding. He’s here.


Jones: Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, son.

Oliver: Yeah, um, that’s— that’s, you know, what I was, you know, trying to, you know, convey to the people, you know, that uh, that, if— if, you know, I didn’t know, you know, Father’s character, and didn’t know what he stood for, that that could have affected me, you know, and uh—

Jones: I’ll bet it could. When you thought your, your lady had married (Breaks down in laughter)— some other— That’s rough.

Marceline: (fades in from off mike) — other girl’s mother must have some— some character, too, ‘cause she hasn’t been around as much as he has.

Jones: Well, he made it, she ought to make it, because we— uh, we haven’t done anything like (struggles for words) I don’t know what they could pull, although they probably said we have Yvette whorin’ around in the streets. (struggles for words) Them people are mean. I would— I wouldn’t be surprised if they told her anything. Yvette’s whorin’ around in Georgetown, probably, that’s— I— they’re— they’re wicked. They’ve told everything. Last thing I heard they told, that Mo— Mother and I, the way we keep ourselves here and try to take over the government, that she gives sex to men, and I give sex to the women, leaders’ wives in the country— country, and that’s how we keep in— that’s how we’re a— able to pull this shit.

General conversation.

Jones: Ah, wicked liars, wicked sonsabitches. And I got something with that bitch. And I love this boy, couldn’t love him any more if he was my own. He is my own.

(Tape cuts off) (End of side 1)

(Side 2 starts after five minutes of blank)


Young man: Al— also, Dad, you know, like uh, like when you know, I was back in the States, we uh, you know, I used to do a lot of security, you know, and uh, I used to always be, you know, always in the back parking lot, and that—

Jones: And faithfully there, yeah.

Young man: And uh, I used to uh, watch, you know, uh, the dad, you know, pass by every afternoon, you know, he’d pass by and he would slow up and look in the parking lot, you know, as if, you know, it was some kind of gesture like, he wanted to do something, you know—

Jones: Yeah.

Young man: And, uh, the, the mom, she, she rides around, you know, all the time too. And she— she— even when she plays on your emotions, she tries to uh, to, to make it sound as if uh, um (pause) what we, you know, standing for, you know, are wrong, which, which, you know, undoubtedly, that’s untrue, you know. Uh, I’m sure she had to be—

Jones: Why, what we’re standing for?

Young man: Yeah, you know, socialism, you know.

Jones: Is that socialism was untrue?

Young man: Yes.

Jones: Well, that’s where she makes her poorest case, anybody’s got any sense. (Stumbles for words) She actually openly tried to attack socialism, huh? ‘Course they did that on the steps, I know they all did that on the steps.

Young man: She’d do that, she— she’d do that, you know, in every conversation that she talks to people. She— she’s got it fixed where she makes everything sounds the same, you know, uh, uh, it— her stories— she sticks to— she gets her one story, and she’ll stick to that one story, and she’ll tell everybody basically the same thing, you know, and that— and— and— that— if you— you hear it from different people, and it makes it sound to people who are not a member of this cause, it makes it sounds like it’s true, you know, and I’m sure she’s been well-rehearsed on that, you know.

Jones: Yep. Yep. Shift, please. Well-rehearsed. Well-brainwashed. Shift. Move your fe— your legs, your feet, your hips. (Unintelligible phrase)

General hubbub as shift occurs

Young man: We used to have— Dad, we used to have—

Jones: Passing out water through here? And washing them— washing them properly? (Pause) (Voice is subdued) Okay, let’s don’t get no shit started, ‘cause we— we’re the army of socialism here.

Young man: Um. After— after we—

Jones: (sharply) Be quiet. (Pause) Yes, son— go ahead, son.

Young man: Af— After, you know, we had the conversation, you know, I went right on upstairs, you know, and reported it, and um, I had a few sessions, you know, a few counseling sessions afterwards, because I think people were, were more concerned about where my ah, consciousness were— was.

Male: It was Dad— It was Dad that was concerned about you, and he— and he directed that. ‘Cause no one else has that type of empathy but Jim Jones.

Young man: That— well, thank you, Dad, ‘cause, you know, it really, you know—

Jones: However, I made no push to get you over here. I had— You were needed there, and I did not have any feeling you were going to commit treason. Sometimes I— So I— I didn’t make any push to br— to bring you over here. So I saw that much character in you.

Young man: Thank you, Dad. Thank you.

Jones: I knew— I knew you could sort the shit from the other, and— and get over here. When you get over here, then it all settles. You can see the truth so clearly. Takes a while. Sometimes people don’t realize they didn’t— they thought they knew what socialism was till they got here, and then— then they had to learn what it really is all about.

Crowd: Right.

Young man: I thank you, Dad, I, you know, that— (short laugh) you know, really—

Jones: Shh!

Young man: That really, you know, relieves ah, you know, my mind a lot, you know, to know— I know that you’re concerned about, you know, all of us, you know— and to know that you’re concerned, you know, personally about each and every one of us, that really gives me a lift, you know, and makes me even want to strive harder to make sure that this land is produce for all of our people that are still back there, because it’s a— it’s really a struggle back there, ‘cause you go through a lot of— of lot of changes in your mind, you know, a lot of things come across your mind, when you’re back there in the States, and uh uh, you think about here and you know you want to be here, and you know that you have to do your job there, in order to make things what it should be, you know, and I really appreciate, you know, your concern, you know, for me in that instance and in all the instances that I, you know— you know, since I’ve been in this cause and this movement, you know, and I really appreciate that.

Jones: Thank you, son.

Young man: Okay.

Jones: (Unintelligible aside)

New male: Uh, and uh uh Larry, Larry, far, far as uh, uh relationship between me and Tanya, it was arranged. (Unintelligible) I mean, you are still real close.

Laughter. Scattered applause.

Jones: He— he don’t want no trouble with you or Cynthia.


Jones: It was arranged, it wasn’t nothing to it but principle, that’s what it was for. Principle. Lot of marriages like that here, so don’t anybody, nobody be nerved about that. Hell, you’d never know who was really with who by who’s married to who. We been doing that for years, to try to save people from somebody trying to hurt some member of the family, some family being irate, hostile, and lying. (Pause)

Woman: Um, Dad, I ran into her, and she said that, uh, Dale Parks, she saw him in Berkeley, and that he talked to her and said that he wasn’t coming here, under what, uh, whatsoever, and—

Jones: Now all we need is to send a picture of Dale— maybe he needs to get on that interview too, and have some words back there.

Woman: — and um, she’s— she works at some hospital or something, but the message got back, uh, that she’s going around the hospital telling people that ah, Georgetown is a poverty area and she is sure that Jonestown looks just like Georgetown, and that (unintelligible) her sons could live here, and that—  She admitted that the money that they were supposed to have gotten or whatever, that she was going to keep it herself, ‘cause she needed it more than they did, um, but she was going to use it for bills and, you know, like that.

Jones: Oooh, and that’s what’s hanging her up—

Woman: Umm-hmm.

Jones: —’cause she can’t get it, because they’re in it. Ah, that’s good, let the bitch worry. They’re sure not very happy, running up and down the streets, looking into our fan— fences, and spending night and day talking to newspapers about us, that’s— that’s not a happy people.

Crowd: Right.

Jones: You think we’re unhappy, but we do have moments and joy and now and then fellowship with each other and good fried chicken and a movie and some card games that we (unintelligible word) play— I’m not talking about myself, my happiness is never there, I’m just talking about your happiness. Because I’m always too busy worrying about the welfare of the people. But uh, they— that— those people not happy, night and day they keep this shit going? You can’t be happy trying to get at somebody night and day. Shows how unhappy they are. All their money that they been bought off with, whatever they can get out of capitalism has done them no good, because they don’t have any peace.

Crowd: Right.

Marceline: When she came to talk to me, I had— I brought Harriet [Sarah Tropp] in because I thought, what she was concerned about was Billy and ah, Bruce being able to get their inheritance. But then I found out that what she was concerned about was, she wanted part of the inheritance to pay bills, and she even went so far as to say, you know, it’s like you with Stephen. You know, I’ve spent a lot of money, growing them up, and you know, I want some of this money. And I said, you know what? It’s not that way with Stephen and me, because I feel guilty for bringing him into this world, and I feel like I owe him everything and he owes me nothing. But this is where she was coming from. She wants that money, and she wants him back there to sign it over to her.

Woman: It was very, very clear, because we explained to her that a person’s— a person’s inheritance is theirs, and they don’t have to come back anyplace or, you know, to get it. They— He could’ve, you know, made arrangements through the U.S. Consul here.

Jones: That’s why I know that somebody’s paying her money. She got to deliver the goods. It’s the same old scenario, same story with John [Victor Stoen]. Got to have the person. They’re not interested in the person. She said she’s interested in the money, so she’s not going to give him any money, and it’s supposed to be their money, so why is it she wants to deliver them? ‘Cause there’s more money if she delivers. That’s the whole purpose of it.

Voice: That’s right.

Jones: She’ll get more money if she delivers. Then she’ll get something else when they get through, but she’s stupid. (Pause) Stupid. I don’t know how people can live themselves. Go ahead.

Young man: In San Francisco, just about a week before we came here, we was in, uh— and few of us was in uh, Army surplus and Harry Williams walked in, and uh—

Several members of crowd: Oh. Harry.

Young man: Me and Herbert Hurt was in the other part of the store, and uh, my companion was in the other part of the store and I was in the other part of the store, and I saw— I saw him walk up to her.

Jones: Walk up to who.

Young man: Glenda. He walked up to Glenda. Glenda Polite, and uh, he asked her was she still in the church, and she said yes. He said, are you going up to, to the (unintelligible word — sounds like “FBI”)? And at that time, I walked up, you know, pulled her away, and I’d asked her, wh— what was uh, he saying to her? And so he said uh— she said he was asking me was I going over to the (unintelligible word — sounds like “FBI”)? I said, what did you say? She said, eventually. He said, well, if I was you, I wouldn’t be going over there, because you don’t know what you’re getting into, and he was trying to tell her a whole bunch of negative shit.

Man in crowd: Eh, excuse me, (unintelligible name — Joe? John? Jerome?), ah, ah— there’s one thing I’m curious about, uh, why didn’t you people that getting this information, why didn’t you tell all this before, before now, I mean, why didn’t you let us know what was going on right when it happened, I mean, when you came down, you coulda told us then. It’s—

Jones: Because, it help— it helps security, it helps security. I not surprised at Harry Williams. He’s a walking dead man. (Struggles for words) If Harry Williams can tell that kind of shit, he must be out of his mind. How many times I’ve raised him from the dead, (struggles for words), well, he never did have a mind of his own, ‘cause I don’t know what they got on him, they got something on him, that’s why Harry has to go along. They got something on him.

Young man: I did report. I report it to San Francisco. Reported to Hue Fortson.

Jones: I warned him, I warned him, I warned him. Well, they didn’t tell us. They should’ve.

Marceline: Could I tell you how— to show you how devious they are. One day, I got a telephone call from Rosemary Williams, and she was acting like she was very concerned about me. (Pause) (Dramatic) Mother, I want you to know, that I realize what you’ve given up—

Jones: Oooh—

Marceline: And any time you need me— Rosemary Williams (stretches out words) called me.

Jones: That’s what they— they set up to do this. This is the conspiracy, honey. They’re not that intelligent. They’re set up to do this shit.

Marceline: And I quickly told her that I’d given up nothing, that there was nothing else to live for, for this cause, and I had no need for her. But it’s so devious

Jones: And that’s your daughter Suzanne [Jones] that’s behind that shit.

Woman in crowd: Mother, she must have forgotten the interview you had with her when (mike moved, unintelligible) ol’ Williams talked to Amanda now. She must’ve forgotten—

Jones: What’s that? What’s that?

Woman: I said, she— for— for Rose— Rosemary Williams to have said a lie like that to Mother, she must have forgotten the inter— I mean, the confrontation she had had when ol’ Williams stopped Amanda and I on the street in San Francisco and gave us all that lying ass shit. I still— I brought it over here. You ought to see it. It’s a little— I just took down all the little things that he said to us, and there must be a million of them. And uh, we— you— you— someone says, why do you listen? We listen because we co— we wanted to get all the shit we could get, ‘cause we couldn’t get back fast enough to report it.

Jones: Laughs.

Woman: But uh— gee— I, uh— after that confrontation, I— I don’t foresee how she could have the nerve to come to you and say anything, Mother.

Jones: ‘Cause she told the truth there, how beautiful it was, and— and stood up against him.

Another woman: On top of that, Williams said all this shit to us, and he hadn’t even been over here.

Jones: Yeah. Then lied— turned around and lied about try— doing it.

General conversation.

Marceline: They think, you know, just trying to divide— And people have tried that with me down through the years, you know. I love you, Marcie, but oh, Jim, and that makes me so damn mad, when anyone pulls that kind of crap. And just try to pull it, and you’ll find out.

General conversation.

Another woman: I think what’s really messy about it, they have to come in a goddamn bunch before they can face you. And when you meet ‘em by theyself, they’re scattering like beetles on the fucking— (voice trails off)

Jones: I hope they told on that, now tonight, I want told, ain’t nobody else have no news conference on our steps again since. (Pause) Say get off of here, we’re— off our property, and we order you off of the property, now. And there ain’t nobody else stupid enough, to take a goddamn paper. Hue should have never— black man stand there, taking that goddamn petition with all these relatives on there.

Crowd: Right.

Jones: You look weak, you look weak when you do that shit. That’s what I’m concerned about. Makes you look damn weak. It only encourages them more. The more you look weak— if we’da look weak here, we wouldn’t have been here today.

Crowd: That’s right.

Jones: All right, what were some of the things we said we had to talk about, so we— I’m sick of hearing these sonsabitches, I’m— fuck ‘em— I’m— I’m gonna bury ‘em one day. (Pause) Or better yet, leave ‘em alive, and let ‘em eat on themselves. I sometimes think that’s the best fate for these pricks, ‘cause they’re obviously so unhappy, all they can do is try to mess with us. Let ‘em ea— live and— live and eat on themselves. (Pause) Tim Stoen used to hate Mertles so bad, he couldn’t stand to look at her, and then to have them on the same steps in the same conference? He couldn’t stand Liz Forman, he said he— he— he just— she just upset him to even be around her, and now they’re all together? Now, you know those people don’t like each other, they hated each other. Some of the folk that are in that circle on that front steps of our church, couldn’t stand to be e— seen with each other. So they’re desperate, honey. They are goddamn desperate when folk— I mean— I remember Stoen come to me, said that, that Liz Forman made his skin crawl. Now there she is with him. (Pause) His skin’s crawlin’, that’s how important it is the— to try to get back to us, ‘cause everything’s shot out from under them. They’ve lost their hope, their purpose, their meaning for existence. And they want to get rid of us, because they know they shit in their nest. The only chance they had to be something, and have something in this world. They shot it down. (Pause) And they know— they’re such little people, they don’t know our capacity even to forgive, although I mean (stumbles over words as he laughs shortly) my capacity’s gettin’ more realistic. But being that they would never forgive any kind of shit, they, they feel well, they’ll never get here, ‘cause they’ve done too much shit, so (Pause) they’re going to try to tear it up so nobody can have it. (Pause) Is what they hope. You understand their psychology? So I don’t know if some of you ever understand anything, ‘cause you never look up here, like you— I don’t know what you’re— you got— you got pubic lice on your balls back there? I don’t know what your trouble is, but some of you never never look up this way. (Pause) Uh, are there two termites fuckin’ under the ch— under the seat?


Jones: (Laughs) The one sister I think must try to masturbate with her nose, her head’s so low.


Jones: (Claps hands) Holy in there. (Pause) How many expected this when you got to the Promised Land? (Laughs) Shit, I did. I didn’t look for every detail, but I knew that life— anything worth having gonna be worth a struggle. (Pause) Take a look at this beauty. You never had one day, you couldn’t set around in Philadelphia or Chicago or Detroit or San Francisco— take a look at those trees out there. And one day— that’s worth a hell of a lot, just to be able to look around there and feel that breeze, one day.

Crowd: Right. Applause.

Jones: Step out— Step outside in some of those cities, the last trip we took through there, just where we came, you— goddamn, you— you couldn’t step off the bus and breathe because your, your damn lungs would freeze.

Crowd: Right.

Jones: Then when you’re in Los Angeles, you cry from just trying to breathe.

Crowd: Right.

Jones: You don’t appreciate it enough he— we take a lot of things for granted here, you know. (Pause) Hmm? (Pause) What’d you say, [Christine] Bates?

Voice inaudible

Jones: What are you saying, Bates? Get it over, get it over to her. Bates is wound up here this morning.

Christine Bates: The hoodlums are after our folks, and our boys, and grabbed them, and when we went to the bank to put our money in, the— everyone want to grab and fight ‘em and everything, and we out here where we have peace, happiness, and comfort, and everything in the world we want. We don’t have to be worried with, when we cross— (unintelligible word) just to cross the street.

Jones: And it’s true. (Pause) Well, what, um, what order do you think discussion should be? I ain’t producing this goddamn land until I get certain measures of, of security. Life doesn’t have ever guarantee, but I want certain measures— (Pause) I want some things resolved. (Pause) Or on the road to be re— resolving. (Pause) That’s the way I feel about it, you see? (Pause) For taking mid-afternoon— well, whatever. Go ahead, let’s go. We won’t talk about that. (Pause) Somebody want to say something? Somebody raise their hand. Yes, Christine?

Woman (probably Christine Bates still): Uh, did I understand that they uh, expected us to uh, employ some of the uh, uh, native people here?

Jones: (firm) No. No, that’s not been a demand, (stumbles for words). That was long ago. We— we crossed that one White Night. When they wanted to move folk in, we said that we weren’t going to have that, because we— they could be spies in our ranks, no, huh-unh. They not trying no shit like that. I don’t even know what the fuck the battle’s over with right now. What is it? It’s the doctor and the pharmacist. That sonofabitching doctor and pharmacist ought to feel popular. (Pause) (Laughs) The goddamn— We’ve had more white news over you.

Voice (Marceline?) inaudible.

Jones: What (tape cuts off for two seconds) we fighting over? Customs, customs, the sonsabitches, to let loose of our medica— medicines. (Pause)

(Tape off for several seconds)

Jones: That’s good. (Pause) Okay. She was just saying, it was wonderful how I felt to let people off last night to rest, because uh, the uh, Cathy’s [could be Cassandra Minor, who gave birth on April 30] starting into labor. So if anybody needed little— if you need a little more— That’s good.

Crowd: Thank you, Dad. Applause.

Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Medical people, as it goes on, if it goes on too long, then you better take a little rest uh—

Marceline: (Voice starts too soft off mike) —Larry [Schacht] and Joyce [Touchette]. Particularly Larry and Joyce, I think. Maybe Sharon.

Jones: And yourself, my love.

Marceline: All I do is stand there and (unintelligible word – bosh?). And I don’t— (Laughs) I’m not needed really.

Jones: Okay. You’ll do what I told you anyway, won’t you?

Laughter, some applause.

General conversation

Older woman: He’s reading. Dad, is there any, isn’t there any possibility that the CIA in Georgetown that’s always letting people know when the important people are out of the, of the country? Could be a leak out there, couldn’t there be? Somebody in the—

Woman (Marceline) answer, too soft.

Woman: I see. Dad, isn’t there a possibility that the, that the C—

Jones: What’s all the humming and the hawing about? (Pause) What’d she say?

Woman: I said, Dad, isn’t there a possibility that the CIA is working with the gov— the government here to let people know when the important people of the, of the country are out, out of the country? Could be a leak there.

Jones: I’m sure, I’m sure the CIA is everywhere, but that don’t mean the end of us.

Crowd: That’s right.

Jones: The CIA could be married to me — and she isn’t — and it wouldn’t mean the end of us. (Pause) So be careful. (Fake suspense tone) If you are married to a CIA, you maybe be now, being lined up for a fuck and then a gentle push on your neck, like in The Day Of The Jackal. (Pause) One last sweet love. (Pause) Right?

Crowd: Right.

Jones: I know some of you could give somebody a fuck and finish ‘em. Hmm?

Crowd: Right.

Jones: Then I’d like to give some folk a fuss— fuck that was sweet, and let ‘em pass over to peace. Wooo! (Pause) You gonna fuck Tim Stoen to death, (unintelligible name)

Crowd: Laughter.

Jones: You’d kill him, I know one day, I tell you, (unintelligible word) seniors, I sending you back, that’s who I sending back, when we— if we go down— Shit, between you and Rose and (Pause) crazy Lue Ester [Lewis]. Thonk thonk thonk. (Laughs)

Crowd: Laughter.

Jones: Lue Ester got healed while she’s fighting her. (Laughs) Where you at, Lue Ester, where in the hell are you at? That’s it, Lue Ester, hold in there. (Laughs) Shit, she hadn’t paid me any attention, she got healed in a fight. That’s good. I like that.

Old woman: Yeah.

Jones: What is it, uh, Jane [Owens], what you gonna do with Tim Stoen?

Jane: No, when I come to Georgetown, uh, I wash dishes one night for Tim Stoen. And uh, he was studying, and so, anyway, I used to like Tim Stoen, I used to like Grace both, you know. So anyway, um, I said, oh, Tim, I say, you studying, I’ll— I’ll— I’ll was dishes for you. And he said oh well, all right. And so the next night, I was trying to kid with him or something. He said, oh Jane, I can’t understand your vocabulary. I say, Fuck you.


Jones: I miss this. (Pause) I miss this shit. I— I— I need a laugh. What— (Pause) She washing the—

Young woman: She was washing dishes for dear old Tim Stoen, and uh, she was joking with him, and he said, oh Jane, I can’t understand your vocabulary. And she said, Fuck you.

Jones: I’m glad, Jane, that you got that in before he left. (Pause) Let’s— let’s send a message and say Jane is looking for him.


Jones: Send him a message, say Jane Owens is looking for you. (Pause) Put a shroud around God while he pisses on the world.

General conversation. Tape turned off for short moment.

Marceline: I know now why God is a man, because their anatomy is so much better built for standing up and—


Marceline: — pissing.


Marceline: You can pee easier than women. (Pause) Now—

Jones: But honey, you have a great advantage when you’re menstruating.


Jones: Drop a little blood on the sonsabitches. God ought’ve been a woman.

Marceline: Never thought of that.

Jones: You can shit on ‘em and bleed on ‘em at the same time, that’s pretty good.


General conversation

Jones: I am sure that whatever God is, we all are ashamed of it.

Crowd: That’s right.

End of tape.

Tape originally posted April 1999