Q618 Transcript

If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.

To read the Tape Summary, click here. To listen to MP3, click here.
To return to the Tape Index, click here.

(Note: This tape was transcribed by Michael Bellefountaine. The editors gratefully acknowledge his invaluable assistance.)

Dial tone. Rotary phone dials.

Voice: We’re unable to complete your call as dialed. Please check the number and dial again-

Dial tone.

Woman: Maybe it’s not.

Man: It is (unintelligible word). I (unintelligible word) it. Try the number again-

Rotary phone dials. Busy signal

Voice: (unintelligible)

Recorded Voice: I’m sorry, we’re unable-

Dial tone

Sound of dialing

Recorded Voice: If you’ve checked your directory and are unable to find the number you wish, please stay on the line, and a directory assistance operator will answer. Thank you.

Operator: What city, please?

Garry Lambrev: Ah, for (unintelligible city, sounds like “Leganidas”).

Operator: Yes?

Garry: Yes, ah, do you have ah, the listing for Wes Wilson in Leganidas?

Operator: Wes Wilson?

Garry: Yeah.

Operator: Okay. (Pause) 488-4422.

Garry: Now, what’s the- 488-4422?

Operator: Right. That’s right.

Garry: Huh. Okay, thank you.

Operator: You’re welcome. Bye.

Phone disconnects. Dial tone.

Garry: Make sure we’ve got-

Sound of dialing.

Garry: -just in case it’s 707.

Prerecorded Voice: If you’ve checked your directory-

Garry: Yeah.

Prerecorded Voice: -and are unable to find the number you wish, please stay on the line, and a directory assistance operator will answer. Thank you.

Ringing.

Operator: What city, please?

Garry: Leganidas, in Marin county.

Operator: Yes?

Garry: Yeah, is ah, Leganidas in the 415 area code or 707?

Operator: Yes, it’s 415.

Garry: It is?

Operator: Uh-huh.

Garry: (Pause) Okay, thank you.

Operator: You’re welcome.

Garry: Yeah, she just-

Dial tone. Dialing.

Voices.

Operator: Good morning. May I help you?

Garry: Yes, could- I am having some difficulty in reaching a number in Leganidas? Ah, 488-4422.

Operator: No area code, sir?

Garry: It’s a 415 number, I’m told.

Operator: And it’s 488-

Garry: Yeah.

Operator: What number?

Garry: 4422.

Operator: Thank you. What kind of trouble are you having, sir?

Garry: Well, um, it just doesn’t- it doesn’t- it doesn’t register as um-

Operator: I’m sorry. Let me try it for you.

Garry: Okay. Thank you.

Operator: You’re welcome.

Ringing.

Eva: Hello?

Garry: Hi-

Eva: Hi!

Garry: This is Garry. Can I speak to Lizzy?

Eva: Ah yeah, just a sec.

Garry: Okay.

Background voices unintelligible.

Liz Forman: Hello?

Garry: How ya doing, kid?

Liz: Garry?

Garry: Yeah.

Liz: Oh, God, am I glad to hear from you. (Calls out) Eva, I got it.

Garry: Listen, I’ve got a- a message for you from our friend.

Liz: Okay, hon. Just a second, okay?

Garry: Okay. I’ll hang on.

Sound of phone being put down.

Liz: (in background off the phone) Eva? Eva? Can you hang up the phone? (Back on phone) Garry, I thought Jean Brown was going to be calling.

Garry: Jean Brown?

Liz: It’s weird. Huh?

Garry: Jean Brown?

Liz: Yeah, because, see, Jean Brown um, called Bruce, and I said call her back and tell her where I am. Give her the number.

Garry: Hmm. I know nothing about it.

Liz: Yeah, this just happened a few minutes ago, so when the phone rang, I thought, oh, that must be Jean.

Garry: (Chuckles)

Liz: Oh, Garry, I’m so glad to hear from you.

Garry: Um, Liz, it’s really weird calling you like this, but this mess- I want you to hear this message-

Liz: Okay.

Garry: Like, uh, could you just listen to it straight. If you have any questions or comments or whatever, just, you know, like bring them up.

Liz: Okay. Where are you Garry?

Garry: I’m calling from a private phone.

Liz: A private phone?

Garry: Yeah.

Liz: You’re all by yourself?

Garry: Yeah.

Liz: I’m not being taped? I don’t believe this.

Garry: No.

Liz: Oh, well, it’s okay if I am. Go ahead.

Garry: (Laughs) Okay. Listen. Jim and Marcie [Marceline Jones] have really great love for you. And uh, Jim hates to see you make this mistake. And you know there’s strength in numbers, and you’re going to do-

Liz: I know-

Garry: You’ve been part of this long enough-

Liz: I know there’s strength there.

Garry: You know that there’s strength in numbers.

Liz: Uh-huh.

Garry: All the numbers we have. We really hate to see you burn your bridges behind you, kid. Really do. (Pause) You know this is a place of protection and love. Then there’s some- (Sighs) You know Sandy Parks? You know she’s suffering uh, from a- a really serious kidney complication, I don’t know the- you know, the particulars of it. But it’s pretty serious from what I’ve heard.

Liz: Um-hmm.

Garry: And Grace [Stoen] is wanting to come back, and I understand that she’s going to be here four weeks from this coming Sunday.

Liz: Um-hmm.

Garry: And then Linda, Linda Sweeney’s daughter, is in and out of jail.

Liz: Um-hmm.

Garry: And so as long- and this is really important for you to know- as long as you want our friendship, you have it.

Liz: That’s really nice. Gosh. (Clears throat)

Garry: And that’s an absolute. Vicky’s gotten into lots of trouble writing checks for money she just doesn’t have, and we’re going to have to help her out with her- with her legal problem, and that’s a very considerable uh, on top of all the burdens that Jim has now. Also as far as René is concerned­- um-

Liz: René?

Garry: René-

Liz: Oh, René. Oh, oh, okay.

Garry: Yeah.

Liz: Let me write this down, so I get it absolutely right.

Garry: Yeah, that’s good, that’s good.

Liz: Okay. (Pause)

Garry: We know that you will want to, you know, straighten out the things she said, um, she is a chronic liar, and isn’t that something that even her grandmother said?

Liz: Yes, um-hmm.

Garry: And you know- I mean you expressed to me on Friday night that things she said are, you know, patently ridiculous.

Liz: Um-hmm.

Garry: And that’s something that can be straightened out together, if you want to, and that is entirely up to you.

Liz: What do you mean, together?

Garry: That we can clear up the lies that she’s told.

Liz: You can clear them up? You mean like with the social worker?

Garry: Now listen, why don’t you just let me finish this-

Liz: Okay, go ahead.

Garry: I want you to get, you know, a coherent idea of what- what this message is.

Liz: All right.

Garry: And um, you know, if we both bog it down, it’ll make it harder for you to really put- put the things together.

Liz: Okay.

Garry: And um, we can straighten out- we can straighten this mess out if we get together and work on it. We can clear up the lies she’s told and- Of course we have recreation and basketball and ping pong, wrestling, boxing, things like that. Um, and that’s got to be, you know, told. But no rigorous sports are engaged in without consent of, you know, parents and child together, ah, so you know, Mrs. Lytell is not to think that uh, uh, children are being forced to do things uh, without parental consent.

Liz: That wasn’t one of the things. That wasn’t brought up.

Garry: It relates, though.

Liz: Does it?

Garry: Yeah. And we’re not at all political. As you’re very aware. In answer to one other question you had.

Liz: Um. I- I need to know more details about how I can do some of- of that, uh, because ah, she seems very con- her grandmother seems very convinced of that, uh-

Garry: Okay listen, let’s go back to-

Liz: However-

Garry: -that at the end.

Liz: All right. All right.

Garry: Since you seem to have a lot of questions about how you answer the political question.

Liz: Um-hmm.

Garry: Uh, you want our faith and trust in you. And we can go ahead with you to the social worker and René’s grandmother, and set the record straight. Uh- A good person to do this would be Sharon Amos.

Liz: Um-hmm.

Garry: Uh- It ought to be somebody who is a social worker and competent and experienced and very sensitive, and Sharon is well liked.

Liz: Um-hmm. Um-hmm.

Garry: Um, now as for protection in the group. The president’s wife [Betty Ford] just called the other day and ah, also the opposing candidate, the wife of [Jimmy] Carter, Rosalyn Carter, called Jim to talk and ah, Jim said it was a matter of twenty minutes to half an hour. And there’re so many coming to the testimonial dinner which is going to be held in September. I don’t know the precise date, I think it was the ninth, but maybe the twenty-fifth.

Liz: What’s the testimonial dinner? I don’t think I know anything about it.

Garry: You don’t know about it? Okay. Um, the mayor and a group of dignitaries uh, have been so impressed with Jim and their work with him that they’ve decided to, you know, have a- to hold a dinner to benefit for Jim in honor of the work that he’s done. And congressmen, supervisors, all sorts of important dignitaries from all over the state and even all across the nation are going to be coming- coming to it.

Liz: Umm.

Garry: I don’t know all of the details, but it’s a very impressive thing.

Liz: Umm.

Garry: The mayor is cosponsoring it. If you have more questions, you know, when we get together, we can, you know, clear some of this up. Um. (Pause) At the meetings we can give you your passport and make arrangements for René’s things if you want.

Liz: Oh, I have all her things.

Garry: You do have all her things? Okay, that’s good. Um. Jim, you know, wanted to clear- to express to you our desires to help. He does have the greatest esteem for you.

Liz: Not true. (unintelligible sentence) I-

Garry: He really does.

Liz: I thought he would really hate me by now.

Garry: No, I mean-

Liz: I wouldn’t blame him. You know.

Garry: He understands, he really does understand, you know that.

Liz: Have you talked to him in person?

Garry: Things that- Yes, I did. Yes-

Liz: You went directly to him?

Garry: Directly to him. I didn’t have a chance to, you know, at the exact time that, you know, you wanted me to. But at the right time, I did.

Liz: Yeah, I wondered, I didn’t hear for days. I thought God, I- I’m just really ah, in disfavor, everybody really hates me because I haven’t called back, I was so scared. (Laughs) Oh. (sighs)

Garry: And I mean, he wanted- he really wanted to emphasize the esteem that he has for you considering the work that you’ve done, you’ve put in over a matter of six years, and Liz, it like it just seems (Laughs) It is- it’s crazy. After all the years of your life that you’ve put in, you- you know, you’re really in a- after all the hells that you’ve been through, and your mother had been through, and your whole family had been through, and the years that you put in and got yourself together and gained strength.

Liz: It’s just that I don’t care now, Garry, if I don’t- if I’m not going to make it, you know. I guess, if I get something like Sandy Parks, whatever happens to me, I mean, it would be a time when I’d be freaked out, I was so concerned with dying and stuff, but I rea- I reallythink that I’ve accepted that now. Like I said, I haven’t accepted pain and suffering very well.

Garry: Um-hmm.

Liz: But to- to, you know, die, it seems like a bit of a relief, you know?

Garry: The thing is, we don’t- we don’t have choice over the way you’re going to die, Liz.

Liz: Well, that’s true.

Garry: It’s likely to be slow and drawn-out and just full of (Unintelligible word), you know? Anyway, just extreme suffering. It may not be- it may not be concentration camp, or it may not be or it may not that. There’s no way of knowing. You could be lying in a hospital bed for years

Liz: Um-hmm.

Garry: Dying of- dying of a breast- breast tumors, dying- dying of paralysis, unable to communicate-

Liz: That’s true. (Unintelligible under Lambrev)

Garry: -that you’re in pain.

Liz: That sounds just ghastly, but see, I just feel that whatever I have to go through, I- I’m not as hypocritical as (Unintelligible) ’cause I’m not- I’m not dedicated anymore.

Garry: Thing is, not only are none of us perfect, but you know – Jim reiterates all the time – but none of us are close to it. We are barely even on our way, and he wants us here.

Liz: I know.

Garry: We’ve been brought here for a purpose, every last mother fucking one of us. I’ve been brought back four or five times, Liz.

Liz: I know.

Garry: And you know that. And you were- in a sense, you were my contact to come back here.

Liz: I know that.

Garry: If it hadn’t been for you, I would never- I wonder if I would ever have had the courage to come back. Jim had used you- You’ve put yourself in a place to be used, and you can do so again.

Liz: See I’m- I’m-

Garry: -and not a soul knows that you’re gone.

Liz: Glad that you’re there, I think that there’s no place in the world for you but that Temple. I really believe it.

Garry: Lizzy-

Liz: I just don’t feel that I am-

Garry: Lizzy, listen to me before it’s too late here. Practically nobody knows that you- in fact besides Jim and maybe a few people he’s confided in, I don’t think anybody knows that you’re gone- and Bev, who was there when you called.

Liz: How about Dianne?

Garry: No. Uh-uh.

Liz: She doesn’t?

Garry: Uh-uh. And ah-

Liz: I had Eva- I wanted to tell you-

Garry: I- Listen, if- if people knew that you were gone, I know that I would get looks, if not direct questions, and I haven’t even gotten those looks, those knowing looks or questioning looks, or whatever sort of looks you get.

Liz: Um-hmm.

Garry: Um- I had gotten some questions, you know, where is- where is Liz? Or, she’s been gone a long time? But most people just say, God, you know, the situation with your grandfather is, you know, really- they assume from-

Liz: Um-hmm. Yeah, that’s kind of my cover.

Garry: So they haven’t even- they haven’t even- they haven’t even come to any conclusions as far as I know. (Pause)

Liz: Another thing, I- I dropped René’s stuff off the other day, and I talked to her grandmother just very, very briefly and um, we- I said, well, when I got my dogs settled, I would um, you know, make an appointment with the social worker, and she said at that time, she said, what’s this about all of these vibrators in your house. That’s another one, a new one that came up. So um-

Garry: Hmm? The vibrators?

Liz: René’s just spilled all kinds of beans. Sometimes she’s told the truth- like that’s verytrue about the vibrator. And so she says that I had offered René a vibrator, and I said, yes, I had. I said I’ll tell you Mrs. Lytell, René has had lots of sexual experiences- She has? I said, yes. I said, she’s fucked a guy, I didn’t say fuck, I said she’s had a sexual experience with a- a young boy-

Garry: Um-hmm.

Liz: And many lesbian experiences, and I felt it was far better to ah, get her to- to go in the direction of masturbation, and I would’ve been glad if my mother had given me a vibrator at her age, and so I just felt it was healthier. And that seems like quite a (unintelligible) viewpoint, and that just quieted her right down.

Garry: Hmmm.

Liz: But I- you know-

Garry: Was this on Saturday?

Liz: Oh, let me see. Sunday. (Unintelligible under movement of microphone) I was- I was waiting and waiting and waiting, hoping that I’d hear, and I didn’t, so I thought I had to get stuff out of Rosa’s car, so I drove it over, but the ah-René wasn’t there fortunately, and the actual talk that we’ll have with the social worker and stuff, I’m going to put off for at least a week-

Garry: Yeah.

Liz: -until I get my dogs ah- I have no place for the dogs, and I’m freaking over it. One of my main concerns-

Garry: Well, the thing is, these are the things that we can to- we can resolve, you know, if we get together and work it out, I’m sure.

Liz: Who do we get together, now? Who’s- who’s “we”?

Garry: If you get together with Sharon and me.

Liz: You and Sharon?

Garry: Yeah.

Liz: I can- I can handle that.

Garry: I hope you can handle that. Okay.

Liz: Yeah, I can handle that. I mean I hope that there’s no little surprises (laughter)-

Garry: Hey, Liz, at least, if you stay away for a while, do keep your ties please.

Liz: How do you mean-

Garry: For your own sake-

Liz: How do I do that?

Garry: For your own selfish sake.

Liz: What does that mean, keep the ties?

Garry: Keep the ties with- you know, with me, with Sharon-

Liz: Oh yeah! I’m not planning to- I mean- I hope- I want you to make it really clear that- that- this’ll sound may- maybe just a little bit strange, but I mean, but if there’s ever anything I can do, in any small way with any, you know, any one of my talents, the- the few talents that I have, if- if- if I can ever be used even, you know, I would be very happy to- I- I want to be- I want, you know, I hold the Temple very dear, I hold Jim very dear-

Garry: Beautiful, I’ll appreciate that.

Liz: I mean, I do, and I’m so grateful that-

Garry: And I know that Jim will really just-

Liz: I mean, he’ll- he’ll probably understand what I mean when I say this- (Unintelligible under Lambrev)

Garry: Automatically, automatically.

Liz: So um-

Garry: I mean, he wouldn’t have sent you this message, he wouldn’t have expressed, you know, his esteem and his concern and his understanding for you, and I know he appreciates it ’cause he expressed to me his appreciation-

Liz: Was he saying like he thought that I was going to leave, or anything?

Garry: What?

Liz: Did he say anything like he thought that he saw it coming, or anything like that?

Garry: No.

Liz: He didn’t.

Garry: Um-hmm, um-hmm. I mean, I’m sure a great deal of sadness when somebody who’s really so dear is-

Liz: Now- I- the thing about René- um, you know, I’ve tried to- to worm in, I said, well I- can I bring somebody with me, you know, who René cared about a lot, you know, for- for the little talk, and they said, no, we want you to come alone. Now I need to know- well, when do you Sharon and I want to get together? Now I’ll tell you, I’m planning to be in Ukiah ’cause- ah, tom- Wednesday, will be a week for the animals, and that’ll cost me almost a hundred dollars-

Garry: (Whistles) Um-hmm.

Liz: So I’ve got to get those animals out of the vet’s of the- where I’m boarding them in Ukiah-

Garry: Right.

Liz: I’m planning to drive up tomorrow or- I mean tonight or tomorrow and um- So maybethat’s a good time for um-

Garry: You mean next Wednesday when you- when you get back from-

Liz: Pardon me?

Garry: You mean next Wednesday when you get back from-

Liz: No, no, no, no. This Wednesday will be a week that I’ve had the dogs boarded.

Garry: Oh, I see.

Liz: See, so I was planning to drive up there tonight or tomorrow-

Garry: Uh-huh.

Liz: I’m not sure which, and ah, just start calling around madly trying to find some kind of place, a temporary place for them. Um, if I thought that- that- that ah, they wouldn’t be, you know what I’m saying?

Garry: Um-hmm.

Liz: And if I thought that, uh- you know, everybody would take care of them, I wouldreally like- because I trust Temple people more than anybody else still, you know I do, I know that they would take better care, I would like to take the dogs right back to their original pens. Now I don’t want to do it, I don’t want people to see me, but I’d like to give them to you, have you take them to the pen and put them back in the pen until I’m ready to um, be more settled, because of right now I’m not even thinking about where I want to get settled, like I said-

Garry: Well, if it’s this Wednesday, maybe we could uh- we could get together?

Liz: Yeah. I mean, could- is it possible for you to ah, go up there with me-

Garry: Yeah, I think-

Liz: And meet Sharon up there?

Garry: No, I don’t think that will be possible, it would have to be- it would have to be down here. ‘Cause Sharon is only, you know, here for a couple of days.

Liz: Sharon is down here now? ‘Cause the number that I got- See I- the message I got this morning from Bruce was, call Jean Brown at the Temple, or call Sharon at 7600 in the valley, so Sharon’s in the valley now. (Pause) You couldn’t go up there with me tonight.

Garry: Hmmm. No, I don’t- I think- (Pause) I saw Sharon-

Liz: Well, she’s definitely in the valley today-

Garry: Huh.

Liz: I know that, (clears throat) ’cause they gave me the 485-7600 number, and I, you know, I just can’t afford to- to make any calls on- you know, put ’em on my-

Garry: Okay. I could do one of two things. I could either arrange something for Wednesday, or I could s- you know, I could try to contact Sharon and call you back today.

Liz: All right. The thing is that – keep this in mind – if I don’t get the dogs out by Wednesday, it’s fourteen fifty or something every day that I have them in there, and that’s just- you know, I- I have so little money, and it’s all going on the dogs, it’s just crazy. I did sort of an impulsive thing when I took them.

Garry: Hey, listen, Liz.

Liz: Yeah.

Garry: I know where Sharon is.

Liz: Where?

Garry: Listen, there’s a dinner ah, taking place tonight, and I think it has to do with [Congressman] Burton, I know Burton is co- is coming here, at least expected, ah, in fact you know, he might- he might be at the church now, may have gone up, but there’s going to be a dinner, and I know that Sharon has a- has a part in it, so I’m sure she’s here.

Liz: Oh.

Garry: She’s one of the people who’s ah- who is ah- they probably thought she was going back ah, but this thing I think was arranged fairly hastily.

Liz: Oh, well, um. If Sharon’s around, then perhaps-

Garry: I know I saw her at breakfast this morning.

Liz: You did see her?

Garry: Yeah.

Liz: Well, like if you and Sharon and I met, where could we go where nobody could see us? You know I’m not anxious for anyone in the Temple to see us.

Garry: Yeah, well, what do you think?

Liz: I don’t know. Or is it- I just don’t know where we could go. Do you? Maybe Sharon would have a spot? ‘Cause she’s going to have to have-

Garry: Listen, can I try to get a- get a hold of Sharon and call you back?

Liz: Yeah. Sure.

Garry: Okay. I can’t tell you whether it’s going to be ten minutes, an hour, two hours, but-

Liz: And try to find out if Jean Brown had something else to tell me-

Garry: Okay.

Liz: Because definitely she did call Bruce twice.

Garry: Okay, hold on, let me make sure I- I- I’ve, you know, communicated everything here that’s essential.

Liz: Okay.

Garry: I- I just want to reiterate, you know, Jim’s concern for you. And more than concern, his understanding. He’s really concerned that you keep ties with us, you know, keep in contact.

Liz: Always, always.

Garry: Because you may want to return, that’s something you don’t know. I thought when I left – not just the last time but the time before – that I was going for good, there was nochance I wasn’t- I mean it was a matter of moral responsibility, I thought I had to save myself (Unintelligible word) absolutely, I will not come back under any circumstances, I mean, may they burn me by my heels hanging from- from a branch of a tree, but I will never return.

Liz: I’m not saying I’ll never return, I’m just saying I don’t think I will. I’ve thought about it too long, but I- I may- you know, I never want to close the doors. I think that my best friends in the world are- are the Temple. You know, I really believe that.

Garry: They really are.

Liz: I believe this. Um, ah, this- you know, the thing that amazes me already is that there’s a bourgeoisness still-

Garry: Really.

Liz: (Unintelligible word) The bourgeoisness and the fact that nobody comes to people’s aid. Like I have two sets of friends that are in the throes of moving, and I am in the throes ofhelping them because no one else is helping them-

Garry: Ummm.

Liz: Nobody- and I think, well, why don’t people help each other? I mean, we’re so used to it, you know, and people here just don’t get together and help each other. Very strange. Okay, uh, two things, babe-

Garry: Yeah?

Liz: I forgot to put those pink slips in the post office to have my mail forwarded. I’ll do that today, but I know there’s a whole pile of mail, and probably my last check for René which Idesperately need, because of the dogs-

Garry: Right. Yeah.

Liz: Especially. So can I give you an address where the mail could be forwarded?

Garry: Sure.

Liz: And they can send it like COD and I-

Garry: Okay, let me get a pencil.

Liz: (Unintelligible word under movement of microphone) to Bertie, he can just collect it for me until I’m there-

Garry: Give me a minute, and I’ll get a pencil. Okay, shoot.

Liz: Okay, in care of Bert, B-E-R-T-

Garry: Satz?

Liz: Yeah, S-A-T-Z like in zebra.

Garry: Yeah. I think I have his address, but go ahead and give it to me.

Liz: 387 (unintelligible), D as in dog-

Garry: (Unintelligible word)

Liz: Yeah. West Los Angeles 90049.

Garry: 9-4?

Liz: 90049.

Garry: Okay. 90049.

Liz: Now, one other thing I forgot to tell you about too. In my garage there in Ukiah, there is like a bunch of boards that Alan [Swanson] put up for me-

Garry: Um-hmm.

Liz: He made like a loft, and on those boards way in the back – Alan’ll probably be the only one that could find it easily – but they’re there, are all the costumes that are nicely neatly packed and labeled.

Garry: Um-hmm.

Liz: And um, there were some of those that I’d kind of like to have, just a few so that I can do my characters and stuff, but the bulk of them I just want to give, you know, to the skit group.

Garry: Right.

Liz: So I wanted you to know that, so that when the time comes, when you have a place for that stuff, you know where they are.

Garry: Liz, that’s another thing. ‘Cause I think the skits group is going to be getting underway pretty soon.

Liz: I know.

Garry: Again.

Liz: That’s good.

Garry: All that’s stuff, and you’ll really be missed in that.

Liz: I know.

Garry: Because your talents are not easily replaced, if at all.

Liz: I just don’t know how I could let myself do the discipline, Garry.

Garry: And your enthusiasm.

Liz: And with that- You see, I started slipping. I started being rebellious, I started sneaking around a little bit and you know, uh, not- not doing all the things I was supposed to do, and that made me feel extremely guilty. And I don’t- like, if I can’t be 100 percent, or not- you know, no one- like Jim says, no one’s perfect, but-

Garry: Nobody’s close to it.

Liz: I remember the years when I was truly dedicated, and I- I feel like if I can’t be truly dedicated to the best of my ability, if I’m not making my strongest effort, then it’s stupid, I- I don’t belong there. People like that are always looked down on, and I, you know, I used to look down on people that couldn’t carry their own load and stuff.

Garry: Umm-hmm. But Liz, let me ask you a question- this is more personal than anything else-

Liz: Sure.

Garry: Because I’m really- I’m curious and I’m concerned. If- You say you don’t, you know, you don’t really care anymore and that-

Liz: About living, I don’t, I-

Garry: Yeah, but what is this? What is, you know, what’s gotten into you?

Liz: I don’t know, Garry. I- It’s got to be too much of a drag to live. It’s the daily dreads. The waking up and thinking, Holy Christ, I- you know, I think that one of the things that was my breaking point was having those disturbed children at the house. You know, I used to communicate better. That it was just horrendous. And then having to deal with the other adults in the house and- and-

Garry: Um-hmm.

Liz: -and being so compulsive and the stress on me was just- it’s taken me- I mean, like I’mreally tired now, and I’m going very slowly through my days now-

Garry: Yeah.

Liz: Even when I’m trying to help people and stuff, I have to really recuperate because it was so much stress on me, that I’m not willing to go through that kind of stress. Now the world out here doesn’t look like- I am really lo- loving to see my friends, I will tell you that. I- I have very warm feelings for these people. We- Even though they’ve gone a little bourgeois and all this stuff, I still have a lot of old ties with them. And some of them haven’t, you know.

Garry: I understand that.

Liz: Okay.

Garry: But remember, Liz, they haven’t been exposed to- they haven’t seen what you have seen.

Liz: Right.

Garry: It’s about all of their hippie costume and all of that and- and the mime stuff and whatnot, I mean, Liz, we all have, you know, areas where- (Stumbles over words) which we feel we can’t deal with, and I know that (Unintelligible word)- some of the children you had were im- close to impossible. Disturbed.

Liz: Oh, see, I had nothing but disturbed children-

Garry: Right.

Liz: -and I see my friends’ kids and they seem so cute and- they-they’re creative and they’re- they’re charming and they’re- they express themselves (unintelligible) and they mind very well and they’re not- they’re not frustrated or pressured, and- and I mean it’s just delightfulbeing around them, and I- I mean, you know, I think it was a terrible mistake that I ever thought I could have kids. I mean, I’m obviously not suited to having kids, especially disturbed kids.

Garry: Listen, this isn’t part of the message that I got just now, but this is- this Jim told me personally. He said, you know, you can live alone. He’s speaking of you. You can live alone. Sure, it’s better to be, you know, with a group and live communally, that’s what we’re all about, but you can come at your own rate. That’s okay.

Liz: I know that.

Garry: That’s okay.

Liz: He’s beautiful about that, but how do you think I’d feel? Uh- Making a special case of myself. Oh, Liz Forman has to live alone because she can’t handle it.

Garry: Hey- Listen, kid-

Liz: What a fucker she is.

Garry: Jim didn’t feel that you were unproductive.

Liz: Huh?

Garry: Jim didn’t feel you were unproductive.

Liz: Well, I felt I was toward the end.

Garry: Maybe in terms of your potential, you were unproductive, but all of us are. Relatively speaking.

Liz: You told him that I felt I was unproductive?

Garry: No, I did not. I sure should not- I didn’t have to. You know the man that he is. He doesn’t have to be told. Um. And he felt that you were extremely productive in terms of you and very productive in terms of the group, and he was very happy about that, the stuff you were doing, you know, at the time and one of the things that I’m sure saddened him very, very much was that you’re leaving at a time that you were productive, and you know, some- a lot of areas.

Liz: Well, I just didn’t feel I was.

Garry: And you do need his protection. There is just no getting around it, Lizzy. You talk to me, I mean, Friday night about this, you know, heart problem, and you’ve talked about it, you know, again and again, and that really, you know, really bothers me.

Liz: Did you talk to him about the heart problem?

Garry: No, I didn’t, I just did not feel right about it.

Liz: (unintelliglbe under Lambrev) That- that’s cheap. If I come back to the Temple because I want Father to heal my heart, that’s a cheap thing to do. I mean that’s what- Most people-

Garry: But, just- Liz-

Liz: -would never bu- do that. I would never-

Garry: Liz, I want you- I want you to listen. You may feel cheap, but just think where Iwas. I was a complete and utter mother fucking mess. You saw me when I came back. I was so wiped out on drugs, I’d lost thirty pounds, I was sick with cancer that I half suspected. I mean, I could go on and on and on and on and on and on. I could barely get up in the morning, Icouldn’t sleep at night.

Liz: Uh-huh.

Garry: And that’s the smallest part of the story. Ask Teresa [King], if you ever, you know, if you ever have the slightest doubt. You saw me during that period.

Liz: So far I feel very good physically since I’ve left, Garry, I mean, it might backfire on me. But so far I feel less, you know, I have less of the heart symptoms, because I’m not pressured and I’m getting sleep.

Garry: Listen, I’m going to (Unintelligible under Forman) you something that you told me-

Liz: Uh-huh?

Garry: And you told me again and again, and you were right. I mean, like you said, Garry, you’re probably going to be even happier in a couple of days, and you said to me when I left, you said, you’re going to be happier in a couple of days than you are right now, and you’re going to be probably even happier than that in a couple of weeks, and all that you said was true. You said, and that then the illusions are going to start breaking.

Liz: I told you that?

Garry: You told me that.

Liz: (Laughs) Oh, Garry. Geez, I don’t remember. I believe you, ’cause my memory is so fucked. I’m sure I told you that.

Garry: Lizzy, think of the problems that you’ve had with your breasts-

Liz: I know. I just had-

Garry: Are they-

Liz: I just had a whole series of x-rays again, and they turned out perfectly clear, and what they did say though, is that I have cal- lots and lots of calcifications in my body, and that I had- that the surgeon said that I’m- I’m not digesting my calcium- and stop taking it. So I’m going to do that.

Garry: You aren’t?

Liz: Well, you see, if you take calcium and vitamin D simultaneously, it does something very weird to your body, it’s very- it could be very serious, and so what’s happening biochemically is that my body is not digesting the calcium I’m taking, so he said to knockout one or the other, don’t take your vitamin D, or don’t take your calcium.

Garry: Goddamn it, Liz, you need his protection.

Liz: I know that-

Garry: You’re worse than a fool.

Liz: See, the thing is, Garry, I know I need his protection, but I don’t want it anymore. You know what I’m saying? I- and I-

Garry: Oh, I don’t believe you.

Liz: Even if I- Even if I wanted it, I- I- it would be cheap to take it. I’d have to come back. If I came back, it’d have to be out of a much higher reason. I don’t like it when people come back because they’re scared-

Garry: You know what I’m hearing- You know what I’m hearing- I am going to have to be frank with you, Liz, ’cause you- You know, we’ve always been close and tried to level with each other.

Liz: Yeah, go for it.

Garry: What I’m hearing you saying is that I- that my ego has to be protected. And I don’t know if that’s a higher reason. And I think most people say, well, I have to come of my own free will, a good place, where I can smile, sounds like- sounds to me like Joe Phillips and some other mother fuckers that I can think of that’ve had to come back when they’re on the top of the world and somebody who has, you know, who admits with some humility that they are limited, and have weaknesses and have fallen prey and aren’t in the best shape, I think for all of their ego and everything else, that isn’t quite the same thing. Don’t feel bad because of that. Don’t feel bad.

Liz: No, Garry, what I mean is, I don’t think you understand. You know that over (Unintelligible word) half the people that’re in the Temple have come to the Temple for protection, are in Temple for protection, not because they’re, you know, believe in the deeper teachings, and they’re- they want to dedicate their lives to it.

Garry: Yeah.

Liz: And that’s all I’m saying. I’m saying that if I can’t be there for a high reason, then I have no right to be there out of ah, wanting to protect my- my stupid little body, you see? That’s a very stupid, cheap reason to be in the Temple or to come back to the Temple.

Garry: The thing out there, Liz, the body decays along with the mind, and they just reinforce each other in their decay. They go right down the drain together. I’m not saying everybody at the same- at the same rate, or in the same ways, or absolutely, but you knowtoo much, you’re too sensitive, you’ve put too much into this work. There’s much less out there for you, even in terms of illusion, than so many- most of the people who’ve left.

Liz: Oh, I mean I don’t have- (Unintelligible under Lambrev)

Garry: And I mean you’re in a desert.

Liz: I didn’t look at it- I’m not saying, oh, how wonderful to be in the world again. There’s nothing here that could appeal to me, you know, I’m not- I- I mean that to you, I’m not going, oh, I’m so glad now to be able to trip around, I’m so glad that- I mean, shit, I don’t- No. I’m not- I’m just glad that there’s a freedom- that that’s the only thing, you know, I’m glad for the pressure, and that the thing that I’m feeling now is that I relieved some pressure, but it’s not like oh, goody-

Side A ends

Side B

Faint, unintelligble voices.

End of tape.

Tape originally posted February 2005

Originally posted on July 8th, 2013.

Last modified on February 18th, 2016.
Skip to main content