Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.
Jim Dunlap: (unintelligible beginning) Reverend Jim Jones (unintelligible word) where we are. So in answer to this mail, and many other requests that we have received, mostly from the FCC and the Reverend James Jones– (laughs) I’m kidding, I’m kidding. I’m mostly too, because uh, last time Lester Kinsolving, uh, wild-eyed uh, uh, (pause) uh, I gotta be very careful about this, otherwise I’ll have to have him back on the show. Uh, (laughs) instead of Lester Kinsolving (unintelligible word) was on, he said some awful things about the Reverend James Jones, and so the Reverend James Jones is back again this morning, with some additions, one uh, which look like a– one of whom will look like a parrot, but don’t be fooled, one will look like a dog, but don’t let that kid you, and– and the third will look like a chimpanzee, and that one will be me. Anyway, stand by for the Reverend James Jones of Peoples Temple after you take a look at this, please.
(Laugh at recording end)
Woman: I guess I can stop it.
Dunlap: That is Polly. Polly wants a part of my arm, I’m going to s– sit at a safe distance here from uh, the Reverend James Jones and friends. That is not the Reverend James Jones. He is the colorless one holding this very colorful uh, parrot, whose name is what, sir?
Jones: Auroric [phonetic].
Jones: Auroric. (unintelligible) I happened to be able to get him in our shelter, because he was quite a bad cusser–
Jones: –and he was pretty violent. But now we’ve tamed him down considerably.
Dunlap: He– he had a sa– a salty uh–
(Two men talk over each other about bird’s vocabulary)
Dunlap: Yeah. Could we bring some of those other people up here? Uh, whi– while we’ve got all of the animals– (stumbles over words) You’re not going to take him away, are you? Or are you?
Jones: No, I– I have to take him away, in order to–
(Two men talk over each other, unintelligible)
Dunlap: Oh, I see.
Jones: (unintelligible) just walk here.
Dunlap: Yeah, that’ll be all right. Sure. Oop. Doesn’t decide he wants to–
Dunlap: I beg your pardon. Let’s hope we don’t develop some sibling rivalry among the menagerie. Could we have uh– Let’s look what we have for you here? We have, uh, in addition to Auroric, we have uh– who is this uh, person?
Jones: This is [chimpanzee] Mr. Muggs. And he uh, was going to be experimented on, we felt unnecessarily. So we uh–
Jones: So we thought we wanted to rescue him–
Dunlap: There goes a week’s work, scattered about the studio–
Jones: (unintelligible), but he– he beautifully went to him, to play with him to any extent, and we love him because of that (unintelligible under Dunlap)
Dunlap: Um-hmm [Yes]. This is part of the uh– the uh– the animal population that you are– at your shelter.
Jones: Part of the many, many– Most of them are just ordinary little mutts and cats that’ve been abandoned, we neuter them and immunize them and give them homes. I think (unintelligible)
Dunlap: Any resemblance between Mr. Muggs and a well-known (pause) pastor, and not this one, I– I hasten to point out, named Lester Kinsolving is coincidental.
Jones: I don’t think he’ll (unintelligible word) here.
Dunlap: Lester Kinsolving was on this program, uh, I don’t know, a couple of months ago, and as is his way, he said some things that we all regret about the Reverend James Jones of Peoples Temple, and uh, I wasn’t kidding when I held this mail up. This– this is part of the mail, this is just a sample of the stuff we collected. Uh, let me just read a couple of these things. Now, you probably know the kind of thing that your parishioners write us. “I was mostly uh– I was most interested in the advertisement in the San Francisco Chronicle of Sunday, July 22, concerning Pastor Jim Jones, who was to appear on your program. On the date aforementioned, I failed to view your program until 7 A.M., which was my understanding of [when] the Reverend Jones was to appear. Can you inform me when he will be on your program?” And a whole bunch of other ones, uh, uh, similar notes, commenting about your– your last scheduled appearance, which I believe got canceled because of Watergate. Did it not?
Jones: Yes, certainly. Yes, I didn’t think there was any issue about that (unintelligible word under Dunlap)
Dunlap: Yeah. Well, at any rate, we just wanted to let your– let members of your congregation and anyone else interested in the Reverend Jones–
Jones: (unintelligible word) mostly non-members that would know because we made that clear to our membership, you know, the problem (unintelligible word under Dunlap)–
Dunlap: Yeah. My stars, the reaction is just– I uh– just unbelievable. And that’s really just a small sample of the mail. I just collected that for over a period of I think two days, so yeah, you could– uh, or– or maybe just a day. I’ve forgotten. This is just a day or so.
Jones: I didn’t know I had that much popularity.
Dunlap: Well, you do. You do. And you’ve been in the news recently because of a– a– a most unfortunate uh, fire at– at the Temple here in San Francisco.
Jones: This is why I would like to– I wish I could get across to our critic the necessity of– of watching his sources because we couldn’t even recognize the article– the one (unintelligible word) article we had from him. It’s it– It’s I think more than a coincidence that the two churches that uh, first inspectors have now said undoubtedly were connected both came under a blistering attack by this one reporter. I think that– not to say– (stumbles over words) And perhaps it encourages the flame of– it flames the passions of (unintelligible word). At least I think there’s a good bit to look at, and we’ve had others suggest this to us. If I hadn’t had uh, a deep feeling on Wednesday night, and kept back my congregation, 700, it was just a kind of a feeling that hangs on to you, I just simply could not let them go, and I held them till two o’clock in the morning. Otherwise, forty young college students would’ve been in there. They said they couldn’t have possibly survived.
Dunlap: You had a premonition.
Jones: I had a feeling, deep feeling, yes, a premonition.
Dunlap: Yeah. Of fire, or just some danger?
Jones: (unintelligible under Dunlap) It’s just– The thing about the paranormal with me, I didn’t recognize it, I mention fire, but the congregation was (unintelligible under Dunlap) of fire.
Dunlap: Remembered that you said fire.
Jones: But all I could feel was the eerie feeling, and I do remember the remark that (unintelligible), we– we must stay. We must stay. (unintelligible under Dunlap)
Dunlap: So when you say “stay,” whe– stay where, sir?
Jones: In our congregation in Redwood Valley.
Dunlap: Oh, I see. (unintelligible under Jones)
Jones: We normally would be out about 10:30, and we stayed till two something in the morning. Otherwise, they would’ve all been bedded down. He slipped in through the– through the basement part, where it woulda been easy to put the gasoline– or they put gasoline at the stairwells, and in three– three minutes, no one could’ve escaped.
Dunlap: The fire department thinks it– or– or has confirmed that it was arson.
Jones: Arson, and they suggested at least to us that both fires were connected, with the Lutheran Order of Man, which also was blistered in the same–
Dunlap: By a Kinsolving article, huh.
Dunlap: Yeah. You think there’s some kook running around out there–
(two talk over each other)
Jones: –encouraged at least by this type of thing. I can’t say. That’s just– that’s just (unintelligible under Dunlap)
Dunlap: Yes, I’m sure. Sure. Yeah. Well, we’re sorry to learn about the– the fire and–
(two talk over each other)
Woman at recording end: Jean [likely Jean Brown] says she’s on.
Dunlap: When do you suppose uh– I think this mail and– and the response to uh, your last appearance, which as everybody I guess now knows was– was uh, obviated by– by Watergate. We were stuck– uh, not stuck with, but you know what I’m saying, Jim, we had no choice on Watergate. Uh, what do you think counts for the– the uh– I don’t want to use the word “fanatical”, ‘cause that’s maybe overloading at little bit, but the uh– the uh– the devout loyal following that this sort of mail represents. One uh– one failure to appear, and we– we get flooded by mail, wanting to know what we’ve done or uh– or– or when if it will be your appearance. What counts for that, do you suppose?
Jones: As I say, the– the parish very well knew about I wasn’t going to appear, ‘cause it was announced–
Dunlap: Now I’m assuming, not a lot of this came from people who were not members of the parish–
Jones: –but uh, I don’t know. Uh, it depends upon what kind of (unintelligible word) you’re mentioning, we (unintelligible word) interest, we use curiosity on these people, I don’t– I haven’t read your mail, are people who reall–
Dunlap: Well, I’ll be glad to turn this over to you. It’s uh– it’s all kind of the same– the same– But I want to get us on the phone here, but let me just– I’ll just pick one out at random here. This comes from San Francisco. Uh, you– your intent to have Dr. Jones on your uh, talk show this morning is uh, commendable, and I appreciate you– uh, you for it. I had read in the uh, Sun-Reporter newspaper that he would appear, and I was too (unintelligible) to discover Watergate was on and so forth and so on, signed, Jeff– Jeffrey Resnick of San Francisco, and there just dozens and dozens of these letters. Well, listen, uh, a lot of people want to talk to you, and there’s no point in me talking to you when– when you can talk to them, so let’s punch out the phone and give them a chance. Caller, you’re on the air with Dr.– uh, with uh, Reverend Jones. Go ahead, please.
Caller 1: Uh, yes, uh, a lot of things he was ab– about to be uh, you know, really rudely awakened. On Thursday, when the young child was allowed to die without his uh, insulin was (unintelligible) injected, still just is embalmed, you know, when the hour passes, and uh, I would like to uh, ask this uh, person what his feeling is when a person’s died. Does he have any conscious– you know, (unintelligible) will be healed, you know, and they aren’t, you know, what– what is– what does his conscience lie? I– I really would like to know.
Dunlap: All right.
Jones: He makes a great mistake in putting everyone in the same category. In the first place, I don’t tell anyone uh, that they’re healed. I tell ‘em to go and see if it will bear the test of empirical evidence. We do not ever in any way oppose medical science. We teach– (unintelligible under caller)
Caller 1: If they die, what (unintelligible) waiting for some evidence? Just like this child?
Jones: You know what? We don’t ask them to wait one minute. We don’t ask them to wait one day. We tell ‘em to go immediately to their doctor.
Dunlap: How do you uh– I’m glad the caller brought this up., ‘cause I think lots of us have been wondering about this. Uh, this was in Barstow, (unintelligible word) a youngster uh, suffering an insulin uh– uh, needing insulin uh, was uh, to a faith healer’s recommendation was taken off insulin and–
Jones: Well, that’s fanaticism. (unintelligible)
Dunlap: –subsequently died, right. Right–
Jones: Complete fanaticism.
Dunlap: I would– I would agree. Would you disagree with that, caller?
Caller 1: Uh, I– I agree with (unintelligible) anyone in a real world knowing where medical science stands. I mean, you know, if you don’t believe in evolution and all that, fine, but medical science has saved a lot of persons with– (unintelligible under Jones)
Caller 1: –persons, who, you know– (unintelligible) the person who has uh, uh, become (unintelligible) real world healers. And this was– this was one of the– the– the heaviest tragedies, where two parents, both of them suffering from the same, you know, temporary insanity, I hope, who– who allowed their child to die. I mean, this– this child had a right to life, and here you (unintelligible word) two parents, both over 18, who allowed this child to die. That– That is– That is the saddest thing I ever heard of.
Dunlap: Um-hmm [yes]. Okay, caller, thank you very much.
Jones: I agree with you, and I feel that no parent should impose their religious opinion to this degree upon their child.
Dunlap: Let’s keep this alive just one more moment. Sorry for that choice of word. Uh, we’ll break here for a moment. I’d like to talk more about faith-healing as you understand it, and some of the resurrections or whatever they are that you– you have uh, you have performed. The Reverend Jim Jones is our guest, and we’ll have some more as AM rolls along right after a few announcements.
Women at recording end talk, unintelligible
(Editorial by station general manager on San Francisco police youth fishing program)
Dunlap: It’s 25 minutes after seven. The Reverend Jim Jones is our guest. If you want to talk to him, give us a call. East Bay, you’re next with the Reverend Jones. Go ahead please. Hello! Caller!
Caller 2: Hello.
Dunlap: Yes, ma’am. You’re on the air.
Caller 2: Pastor Jim?
Caller 2: Uh, I was in a meeting uh, run by a reverend who criticized you, said that you have practiced black magic along with several other groups, and another occasion, I heard him say, Katherine Kuhlmann, Oral Roberts, Mary Baker Eddy, (unintelligible word), the Methodist even, uh, Jean Dixon and Edgar Cayce, and he said they all traffic in a form of modern black magic, well, I was just curious what is his connection with them.
Jones: I didn’t hear that comment, but uh, it’s ludicrous. Uh, I– I have– I take deference to that word “black” too, I uh– there’s no magic in faith, and we uh– we certainly have no interest whatsoever in any kind of witchcraft or occultism in that sense. I think he– All I heard on the last program was that he mentioned youths’ interest in cults and Satanism, and he blocked me along with some others, but I don’t remember his remarks from– about Mrs. Kuhlmann and Mrs. Eddy were separate from that particular package. Uh, I have no connection with any magic uh– That’s uh, that’s all I could say on this– on this subject.
Caller 2: (unintelligible word, cut off by Dunlap)
Dunlap: Well, what would you call him– ask both of you, caller and uh, Reverend Jones. What would you say uh, would be an a– an accurate description of uh, an ability to resurrect the comatose, the dead, uh, or– or whatever it is that, you know, your faith will claim for you? Isn’t that magic? I would call it magic, or– or a mira– miraculous.
Jones: Well– Yes, (unintelligible word under Dunlap), in a sense, I suppose. We– We’re very uh, humble about this. We say that the uh– the vital signs are not apparent to medical people (unintelligible), doctors and the nurses. But of course, we don’t have any encephalogram, we– we don’t have way of taking brain wave test. There have been unusual phenomena reported to us through faith, using uh, on one occasion, I recall, a picture of lady who was waiting for the ambulance to come to get her daughter, and we checked that out, and it seemed to be quite accurate. But uh, I don’t think this is unusual in terms of even science today, when we find uh, that journals uh, such as Wall Street are mentioned (unintelligible) by love, and uh, the healing of wounds, I think, is Dr. Carol Nash, the eminent biologist that mentions how rats and rodents have responded to– to healing touches in a disproportionate sense that would show that unquestionably there’s certain love force or magnetic force that goes from the hands. Uh, I think it’s just an extra dimension of science (unintelligible under Dunlap)
Dunlap: You don’t think you’re psychic?
Dunlap: Do you think you know a psychic (unintelligible word under Jones) ability.
Jones: It’s been proven that I’ve had awareness of things that were going to happen.
Dunlap: I guess this premonition would be an example of that. Caller, how do you feel about this?
Caller 2: Well, I– I– I would be surprised to hear any uh, mention of Pastor Jones in connection with black magic, because my uh, mother-in-law’s sister had bad cataracts, and she went to uh, one of the pastor’s meetings (unintelligible), and uh, when she came back, uh, they were gone.
Dunlap: They were– They were gone?
Caller 2: Umm-hmm. Umm-hmm. (unintelligible word under Dunlap)
Dunlap: Hmm. Well, what do you call that?
Caller 2: Well, I don’t know. Ask Pastor Jones, I–
Dunlap: No, I want to ask you. I– I– You know, we just heard from the pastor Jones. What do you call it?
Caller 2: Oh, I– I think it’s wonderful. I– I–
Dunlap: Well, I do too, but is– is it not miraculous? Is that not magic?
Caller 2: Uh– well, it’s– I– I don’t know. Magic. I think miraculous is a–
Dunlap: I’d call it a miracle.
Caller 2: Yes, indeed, I do think it’s a miracle.
Dunlap: If it indeed occurred. And I’m not disputing it, I just wasn’t there, so I can’t affirm that it occurred. I just have to take your word for it.
Caller 2: I think (pause under Dunlap) the man uses his powers for the good, it’s– it’s uh–
Dunlap: Sure. Okay, thanks very much. San Francisco, you’re next with the Reverend Jones. Go ahead, please.
Caller 3: Hello, Mr. Dunlap.
Caller 3: Uh, I’m calling in as a member of Peoples Temple. I’ve been a member of four years now, and I want you to (unintelligible). I’d just like to share some of my experiences with you that I’ve had since I’ve become a member of the church.
Caller 3: Uh, I– I was an atheist when I first came to the church. I was attracted by the human service ministry that I saw. But when I went to the healing services, the many miracles that he happened to (unintelligible under woman at recording end). I myself was healed by Pastor Jones.
Dunlap: Of what? What were you healed of?
Caller 3: Well. I had suffered with constant kidney infection since I was a child. And my mother had taken me to so many specialists that I was losing faith in,–in medical science.
Dunlap: How did the Reverend Jones uh, cure you? What did he do?
Caller 3: Well, the very first healing service that I went to, uh, Pastor Jones called me out through the gift of revelation, and he told me facts and events that happened in my life that I had not mentioned to anyone in the room, as well as thoughts that I had that I never even verbalized to anyone.
Dunlap: Yeah, well, that didn’t– That didn’t cure your kidneys, did it?
Caller 3: Well, then– this was– this built my faith, and I realized that the– God was working so tremendously through Pastor Jones. And uh, then, Pastor Jones spoke the word of healing to me, and I felt that relief in my body, and I have never had um, trouble with my kidneys since then, and I–
Dunlap: You had a certified kidney complaint? I mean, this was something doctors could– could verify?
Caller 3: That’s right, I did–
Dunlap: This wasn’t just stuff in your head there, it was a–
Caller 3: No, when I was a– a young child, it was something I though I’d always have with me.
Dunlap: And you’ve had no problems since.
Caller 3: No. None since.
Dunlap: I’d call that a miracle.
Caller 3: I surely would too. And (unintelligible word) to me, I remember an older woman from Los Angeles, Roxanne White, came to a recent service, and she had been in a wheelchair for five years with arthritis. And Pastor Jones called her out though the spirit of revelation, and uh, within seconds, she had gotten up out of her wheelchair, running around the auditorium, jumping and praising Mr.–
Dunlap: You know, we’ve seen so many– Now, I’m not talking about the Reverend Jones here, and I hope you understand this, and I hope the caller understands it too, and I hope other viewers do, too. We’ve seen so many examples of fraud and trickery and deceit. Uh, they call that kind of thing uh, ringing in the– well, that– that’s what they call a ringer. You know, I mean, there’re a lot of ways I could explain that. In fact, I could perform that too. Ike (unintelligible name) and I could do that right now, could we, Ike, if we put Ike in a wheelchair, and he claimed to have been crippled for the last 12 years, and then suddenly when I lay on hands, up he jumps and runs around, and there might be a lot of folks suffering who would take that to be some sort of a sign. And it would be nothing more than just a– just a– a trick. How do you– how do you know it wasn’t a trick?
Caller 3: Well, I was close to the woman. I saw the tears in her eyes, I saw the look of joy on her face.
Jones: You can– You can give the address.
(Jones and caller talk over each other)
Caller 3: –the spirit, it was so strong, that if you had been there to witness it, as I have many times, you’d know that this–
Dunlap: Well, you certainly know that the– the relief you felt in your– in your kidneys, in your system was not a trick.
Caller 3: That I do know.
Dunlap: Right. Okay. Thank you, ma’am.
Jones: We rightly remember that case, and I hope we mentioned it the last time. I said, whatever may have p– out there, I wouldn’t, you know, be so speculative to say what condition may have put her there.
Jones: But she is– she’s a person we can easily give you for documentation–
Dunlap: This is the lady with the arthritis.
Jones: Yes. She was there five long years, and something inspired her in that service. (unintelligible under Dunlap)
Dunlap: You mean, she’d been coming to services for five years?
Jones: No, no. She had been coming for some time, though, in a wheelchair, but she’d been five long years in a wheelchair, and this is a matter that we did document. So we have– I know who she’s speaking of, I can give you uh, information (unintelligible word under Dunlap)
Dunlap: I’m asking the question, Reverend Jones, only because uh, skepticism is uh, is kind of a healthy condition.
Jones: I think so. I think so.
Dunlap: And uh, in the past, we have been uh, we’ve exercised a healthy skepticism with respect to other psychic occurrences on this program. Uri Geller is an example. And lots of us have come away puzzled, confused, about what we saw. Not quite so skeptical as before. And if it’s possible with Uri Geller, if he can indeed bend a nail by touching– by laying on hands, maybe you can cure a kidney problem by laying on hands, too, or ministering to the needs–
Jones: I’m convinced– I’m convinced that faith can heal.
Dunlap: Well, I’m not in a position to dispute it so stoutly as I used to. The Reverend James Jones is our guest, and we’ll have some more as AM rolls along, right after this.
Woman at recording end: I gotta go. Goodbye.
Tape edit. Music.
Dunlap: Uh, what– what’ve we got up next. Okay, here’s Peninsula. You’re next, Peninsula. Go ahead please. Caller?
Caller 4: Hello.
Dunlap: Hello, you’re on the air, ma’am, go ahead.
Caller 4: (unintelligible question)
Dunlap: Yeah, go ahead.
Caller 4: I’d like to know, uh, how is it that we can avoid the totalitarianism (unintelligible question)
Dunlap: Let me ask you a question before we ask the Reverend Jones to comment on that. Are you a member of the Peoples Temple?
Caller 4: Hmm?
Dunlap: (Louder) Are you a member of the Peoples Temple?
Caller 4: No, I am not.
Dunlap: Have you ever heard him speak on uh, combating totalitarianism?
Caller 4: Well, I– I’ve read the article, and it’s– you know, there’s some–
Dunlap: Yeah. Well, listen, I– what I’m getting at is, we’ve got 12 lines in here (unintelligible preposition) Reverend Jones, and every one of them is from people who are uh, I– I think confirmed in their belief. Uh, what we would like to get is some folks who want to ask some honest questions. I think you already know the answer, don’t you, caller?
Caller 4: Pardon?
Dunlap: You already know the answer to the question you’ve asked.
Caller 4: I’ve never heard him speak.
Dunlap: Oh, you haven’t.
Caller 4: –read the article–
Dunlap: I see.
Caller 4: Yes, and I (unintelligible balance of sentence)
Dunlap: Okay. Well, I’ll tell you. We’ll give you your answer on the air. And thanks for the call. Well, how do we combat totalitarianism?
Jones: (unintelligible)– hear?
Dunlap: How do we combat totalitarianism? Fascism. Communism. ‘Cause she said she has read some of your comments on that.
Jones: (Pause) How do we combat it?
Dunlap: Yeah. Apparently you’ve spoken out on this, or– (unintelligible under Jones)
Jones: Well, I– I’m concerned about totalitarianism, and I feel that if the church does its part in taking care of the necessities of its people, as the Scripture admonishes, take care of the household of faith, I suppose we would be able to bring about the Jeffersonian dream, of the government that governs least, governs best. I– I don’t know. I have no real (unintelligible under Dunlap)
Dunlap: Is political orientation part of your uh, your daily ministry? Do you– do you feel the need to comment on politics?
Jones: Well, we’re concerned about the basic freedoms, basic freedoms, not partisan politics, no.
Jones: Oh, we were concerned very much about the role of the free press recently, and of civil rights in general.
Dunlap: Sure. Umm-hmm.
Jones: But uh, as far being as being a panacea, again, we don’t– we just feel that the church will do less edifice building and– and do some of the things that we are doing and others aren’t doing. This– their own senior citizen homes, their own convalescent homes, our own children’s homes, take care of the animals, and this type of thing that we’re doing, provide– as we do 109 youngsters in pursuit of education directly from our parish. Five are studying to be doctors. That shows the respect–
Dunlap: How many members in the parish now, do you–
Jones: Over 10,000.
Dunlap: Is that– that confined mostly to California, or is that nation–
Dunlap: In California? How do you– Well, that church up there in Ukiah isn’t big enough to house (unintelligible under Jones)
Jones: Well, you’re talking about– you’re talking about in Los Angeles, San Francisco, and the Redwood Valley church.
Dunlap: Yeah. Yeah. I see. You must have huge ser– How many services do you have on a Sunday?
Jones: Oh, it’s– Each week, I minister in Los Angeles, San Francisco and Redwood Valley. So it’s a job.
Dunlap: Umm-hmm. Yeah, I bet.
Jones: And my voice is showing a little bit of it today. Fact is uh, one of my doctors think it’s very miraculous that my voice continues. I use it about 12 hours a day.
Dunlap: You do see a doctor once in a while.
Jones: Oh, I believe– (unintelligible under Dunlap)
Dunlap: Yeah, I’m not– I know I seem very skeptical, even asking that question that way. You do.
(Men talk over each other)
Dunlap: –put a hand on your neck–
Jones: I’m probably a poor doctor’s patient. I don’t go as I ought to, but I do recommend it strong, and uh, the– the fact that my voice– as much as I use it, 12 hours of public speaking, is miraculous that it continues, so– And I don’t have any treatment for that. That’s something I’ve had to learn.
Dunlap: Sure. Yeah. Okay, let’s take our next caller. East Bay, you’re next with the Reverend Jones. Go ahead, please.
Caller 5: Hello.
Dunlap: Good morning.
Caller 5: Um– I’d like to ask the reverend, I heard you a couple of months ago that he’s in favor of abortion. And that really surprised me, because I mean, I’ve heard a lot of really nice things about the church.
Dunlap: That he was in what? I didn’t hear that.
Caller 5: I’m sorry. He was in favor of abortion.
Dunlap: Oh, in favor of abortion.
Caller 5: Yes, and uh, I have a– a lot of respect for life, and I thought he did too, and my grandmother went to (unintelligible word) in Washington D.C., and sent me an article about his church in Washington, D.C., and how they were cleaning up the Capitol and stuff, and as I said, (unintelligible word), really fine thing about it, I just couldn’t understand his point of view.
Caller 5: And I wish he would elaborate–
Dunlap: Well, all right, how about it?
Jones: I– I do not take this stand, what’d she say, against– (unintelligible under Dunlap)
Dunlap: And in favor– in favor of abortion.
Jones: I– She said I took a stand in favor of abortion.
Dunlap: –in favor of abortion. She’d heard. She said.
Jones: Well, I take a stand that a body– that a woman’s body is certainly is a part of her. I’m not ironclad in the uh, position, I’m– I’m concerned that, with any form of uh, human uh, murder, uh, I mean, when we start on the fetus, I’m wondering where we will go next. Uh, I think there’s a permissiveness about it that frightens me terribly. But I don’t– I have not championed any view either– either one or the other.
Dunlap: Umm-hmm. Well, that doesn’t sound like a pro statement to me, caller. I– I’ll give you a pro statement, if you want to hear one, so you can compare it.
Caller 5: No, no, I think– I guess I (unintelligible phrase) misrepresented, ‘cause I–
Dunlap: Well, maybe. Well, you’ve heard it from the man himself.
Caller 5: I beg your pardon.
Dunlap: I say, you’ve heard it from the man himself. Any questions further?
Caller 5: No, I didn’t hear (unintelligible statement)
Dunlap: We just did!
Jones: I just spoke that I have not taken that kind of position.
Dunlap: Are you a member of Peoples Temple?
Caller 5: No.
Dunlap: All right. Are you thinking about it?
Caller 5: Oh, no, I’m thinking of going there. I feel– I think it sounds really interesting.
Dunlap: Umm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Thanks very much. What about– Let’s– Let me just ask you this. Uh, the snake people down South someplace who’ve been passing rattlers among the faithful as a test of faith, you know, test by the fire, and all that sort of business. And as a consequence, you know, the little fellow who died because his parents took his insulin away. Well, there’ve been some people die because they’ve been bitten by rattlesnakes. Now, it seems to me there’s a great danger that uh, (sighs) I hate to use the word “fanatic,” but I think some of the fanatics, I guess, have– feel that the only way to affirm it– it’s not enough to just affirm it, affirm my faith in whatever, I have to hold a rattlesnake, to prove that I– I really can pass that test, and people die.
Jones: (unintelligible under Dunlap) –sincere–
Dunlap: Well, I’m– Yeah, I guess that you’d have to be sincere to hold a rattlesnake. But how do you feel about that? Aren’t you concerned that–
Jones: I think that– I think anytime you take a (unintelligible word) position on matters like this, you’re going to end up with this type of fanaticism. And I don’t– And I think biblical evidence does not support it. Because all good things come from God. Now that would include medical science. All things that are positive and good, and empirically proven. Now uh, snakes– I– I think they distort the Scripture in Mark, about handling of snakes, uh, (unintelligible phrase), a responsible church does not involve itself in the (unintelligible word) of healing, it’s only one small portion of our work, really. There’s more involved in human service than there are in spiritual healing. But the responsible church does not. It’s going to be then left open to all these who uh, have sincere maybe, but fanatical ideas that end up in a tragedy like this, where people [were] waiting on a little boy to be resurrected in four days. And what pattern they– And why they picked four days, I don’t know. Three days, Jesus was in supposedly the grave.
Dunlap: Yeah. Well, you see, Lester Kinsolving– not to defend Lester here, Lester’s long gone. And I must say, in lots of ways, I’m relieved. (Laughs) But to defend– Not to defend Lester, but to uh, to account for his– I think his antagonism, Lester feels the same thing and puts you in the same group with the– the snake people.
Jones: Well, he didn’t when he was there, visiting us.
Dunlap: Yeah. Well–
Jones: So I don’t know–
Dunlap: I think that’s the implication of what he’s saying, you know, I’m not trying to put words in his mouth, or–
Jones: Just show us another (unintelligible word) program that has, uh, free legal services for the poor. Housing for its people, guarantee to its people that they will never be left lonely in their golden years. Senior citizen homes, college dormitories, this kind of thing. I don’t know of any group that involves itself in the mystical– or so much that it does what we are doing.
Dunlap: Let me ask– Let me ask about um, funding. It always comes up, so let’s ask about it. These folks who receive free housing. Do they give up anything in exchange for that? For example, do they give up–
Jones: Uh, not at all. Not at all. Not required–
Dunlap: No, not required, but do they voluntarily give up money for example?
Jones: (unintelligible under Dunlap) No. We have not had any property turned over to our church (unintelligible under Dunlap), generously, uh, but there’s no arbitrary rule about that. The fact that last month, we have saved three of our members’ homes. We’ve saved a lot of people’s homes, by paying back payments, older people who were disadvantaged economically, and uh, I can recall that this point that no property being transferred to us.
Dunlap: I– I– I say that, ‘cause I know of one congregation– not yours, but it’s up, uh, it’s up your way–
Jones: Yes, I know.
Dunlap: And uh, part of the arrangement is, in order to uh, to uh, receive certain tax benefits, is the members of the congregation turn out over all of their worldly goods, all their real property, to the uh, church, and it’s incorporated, it receives a– a blanket– Apparently if it receives a blanket uh, tax exemption as a consequence, the church doesn’t real– realize that this property, and then, then allows you and me to live in the house that we formerly had title to, and I would turn the title over to– they– they now hold the deed and so on. And it’s kind of a tax dodge, it’s not– again, I’m not talking about the Reverend Jones. It’s kind of a tax dodge, it provides the church with what it needs, uh, real estate and uh, and it increases its net worth–
Jones: (unintelligible under Dunlap) –clear on this point? I would be happy to see all churches would lose any kind of tax privileges and ministerial privileges to avoid war. Then I think the church’s conscience would return, and uh, it would be– it would do a great deal for uh– to boost the uh, the life and the spirit of the church.
Dunlap: Let me uh– Let me turn this over to you. You’d be interested I think in some of this mail. We’ve saved– That’s just a portion of it–
Jones: Thank you.
Dunlap: All right, I’ll uh– any– any more mail that we get, I’ll pass along to you. Good to have to you here.
Jones: It’s a pleasure.
Dunlap: Sorry about Lester.
Jones: Well, I hope we won’t have to be (unintelligible under Dunlap)–
Dunlap: Well, he’s in Washington, so I don’t think we have that to worry about it again. And thanks for bringing uh, the parrot and the dog and the uh– and the chimp. Nice to see you again.
Jones: (unintelligible sentence under Dunlap). Thank you very much.
Dunlap: Reverend Jim Jones and Peoples Temple. (starts introduction of next guest)
End of tape
Tape originally posted May 2013