Q686 Transcript

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.

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(Note: This tape was one of the 53 tapes initially withheld from public disclosure.)

Part 1:

Woman leads a child in reciting alphabet and story telling. Tape segment lasts several minutes.

Part 2: Phone conversation between Temple member and Redwood Valley resident

Mother: –of the church–

Temple Member: Oh–

Mother: –uh, through the school.

Temple Member: Okay.

Mother: And I had made a couple of remarks on the phone.

Temple Member: You mean on the radio on the phone.

Mother: No no no no. Just over the phone. Privately. And uh, about 20 minutes after the remark – I had made a couple of remarks – I received a phone call from a person who identified his– would identify himself only as James, and accused me of making the call the day before on “Feedback” stating– (tape edit?)

Temple Member: –Member of our church that did this?

Mother: No, he denied being a member–

Temple Member: Oh, oh, oh.

Mother: But he was setting up for the church.

Temple Member: Oh, oh, oh.

Mother: Now see, I don’t know whether he was or what the situation was, but it was a little disturbing to me, like I told him, if I hada been the person that called in, he did not have the right to call me privately and discuss it, because this is a, a public viewing of everybody’s opinion, and if he disagreed with me, he should call the station and– and give his viewpoint.

Temple Member: Right. Right.

Mother: Uh– he wanted to discuss the situation further with me, and I said I didn’t even hear the conversation on the radio, therefore I refused to discuss it. I said I live in the valley, I live next door to Peoples Temple, I’ve had no problems with them, I’ve had really no experience with them, I am ignorant as to their financial status and everything, therefore, would not be making any remarks whatsoever, but did not appreciate him privately calling me.

Temple Member: Oh. Wonder– I mean, I’m sure it’s not one of our members, because– I would– First of all, I don’t know how they’d get your name and it’d be pretty presumptuous of anybody to–

Mother: Yeah. Yeah, this is so uh– And it was quite (Pause) uh, like I said, I had made a couple of remarks against this person who– who I was having trouble with through the school, with one of my children–

Temple Member: Oh, I–

Mother: –who is a member of the Peoples Temple, and I got this call like 20 minutes after I had made the remark.

Temple Member: Oh, boy.

Mother: And they said I had given my last name, and so I think the person was calling because of the remark I had made against this other person– (Pause)

Temple Member: Hmm.

Mother: – who is a member of the Peoples Temple. (Pause) Do you see what I’m saying?

Temple Member: Yes.

Mother: And I– So I don’t think it had anything to do with that phone call that came into the station, I think it was– They were using that as an excuse, because I contacted the station and asked them whether the person who made that phone call gave their first or their last name, and they said they gave their first name. Not their last name. So–

Temple Member: Oh, oh, who made their– the– it– who made the very first statement–

Mother: Yes, uh-huh.

Temple Member: –who started– I see what you’re saying.

Mother: Yeah, but I was accused of being that person. He even said he recognized my voice.

Temple Member: Hmm.

Mother: So, it was uh, (sighs) I felt it was somewhat threatening in the extent that uh, he was calling saying– accusing me of making that phone call, when in a sense, he was (Short laugh) calling stating that he knew I had made a remark. And I asked him if it had anything to do with the remark I had made that day, and he said no. But he had no way of getting my phone number, other than through that– that two phone calls that I made. I had given my phone numbers–

Temple Member: Well, did you recognize possibly who he might have been?

Mother: No, he said he was an invalid, that he was lonesome, he was by himself and he enjoyed talking on the telephone. And I said that I recommend you get on that phone and talk to Feedback every day and don’t ever call me again–

Temple Member: Hmm.

Mother: –because, I said, this isn’t how that’s set up. It’s– you know, if– if– even if I hada made the phone call, I had the right to view my opinion even, and then if you disagreed, you had the right to call in and disagree. (Pause) But I didn’t even hear their phone call– I didn’t even hear “Feedback” that day, to even know what the phone call was about, other than hearsay, you know.

Temple Member: Hmm.

Mother: And then when I read this article, I felt that (Pause) I should, you know, like you said in there if there was (Pause) uh, anything that had been, you know, connected with this to please call and– and let you know. So all– all he would give me was, was James. Had he given me his full name and his phone number, I might have talked to him a little bit. But I felt that he had an unfair advantage.

Temple Member: Hmm. And he wouldn’t give you his phone number or anything.

Mother: No. Or his last name.

Temple Member: But did you say he was friendly towards us? Towards the church?

Mother: Yes. Uh-huh. Yes. He disagreed with everything that the caller had said.

Temple Member: Well, you say that uh, you know, you have problem[s] with one of the children from the church, with church children, is there anything– you know, if you could name the child, possibly, we could talk to the child to see if he could help.

Mother: No, it was­– it was an adult. It was my child was having problems with one of the adults in the church through– through the school.

Temple Member: Oh. Through the school.

Mother: Yes. No, I’d rather not give out any names–

Temple Member: Oh. Well, is the problem resolved?

Mother: Uh, I hope so. (Pause)

Temple Member: Umm.

Mother: Uh, as far as I can see right now, it is.

Temple Member: Oh, good. That’s good.

Mother: So, I’m relieved (laughs) to see– But I– I just– I honestly feel this person had to be a member of the Peoples Temple, or he wouldn’t have– (Pause) If he isn’t, he should be.

Temple Member: Well, we get– Let– let me tell you, though–

Mother: If he feels this strongly about it.

Temple Member: We– we– we get accused of everything. We get accused of– I mean, people have, you know, give us threatening calls and, you know, like, well, that’s what that whole um, you know, article was written up for– for that very thing, like what (unintelligible under interruption)

Mother: Yeah, I read the whole thing.

Temple Member: But really, we get accused for a lot that– I mean, we haven’t– I’m sure one of our members hasn’t done it. We can check it, but, you know, I’m sure that, you know, it wasn’t one of us. But you must, you know, know that we do get accused for a lot, and I’d rather that you not accuse us of that, and so you know–

Mother: Well, the reason– like I say, if he isn’t, he should be a member, because he’s certainly on your side and– and, you know, this type of thing, he’s– I mean, he’s a– well, it’s like I told him, I– I didn’t have a right to take sides, because I was not familiar and uh, I– I live with– next door to neighbors who are Peoples Temple, and I live in the Valley, and we are surrounded, you know, by the people and we work with them, we live with them, and I had– I had not taken sides one way or the other.

Temple Member: Oh. That’s good.

Mother: And so for him to call and– and disagree with what I supposedly said– and then he– he even wanted to discuss it after I told him that I did not make the statement, but he said he recognized my voice, and that I did make it.

Temple Member: Boy, there’s a pretty, uh, pushy person, wasn’t it?

Mother: Yes. And like I told him, I didn’t appreciate uh, him calling me privately because uh, he had no right

Temple Member: Yeah. It’s a– you know–

Mother: You know, and so I called the station, the station said if there was any more, that they would contact the church, and uh, see if something couldn’t be done on the situation. But if he called and refuses to give me his name or phone number (unintelligible word) again, I’m going to hang up on him. I’m not going to talk to him.

Temple Member: Well, I appreciate your calling, and it’s having really the freedom to call us, you know, about it.

Mother: Yeah. When he had my last name– This is it, you know.

Temple Member: Oh boy. Well, it’s scary, isn’t it?

Mother: Yeah. It is.

Temple Member: Whoo. Um– I didn’t– You say that people live next door to you. Are they– Are there any problems with them?

Mother: No.

Temple Member: They don’t give you–

Mother: (unintelligible word– sounds like “Laura”)– Our kids don’t get along, uh, so they just don’t play together, and there’s no problem. When we first moved here, they played together, but they just– even though they’re the same age, they go to school together, they’re– they are friends, they’re not enemies, you know, but they just don’t play together. They just aren’t– are not compatible.

Temple Member: Well, I’m glad there’s no, you know, problems there other than, you know, just not getting along.

Mother: No. Huh-uh. No. None at all. As a matter of fact, if I see the people in town, we speak and ask how you are, this type of thing, you know, no, there’s no problems whatsoever with them. And one of the things also that frightens me is that I live by myself with a number of children, and this, (Pause) you know, without a man around, and the fact that this man knew my last name–

Temple Member: Yeah. Boy.

Mother: –was, uh, (Pause) was quite weird. (unintelligible word) name and phone number. (Pause) I– I honestly feel it was connected with the call I made, because I was trying to get some information–

Temple Member: I wonder how somebody could get that much information–

Mother: Well, because I had left my name and phone number on this, on these two calls that I made–

Temple Member: Ooh.

Mother: –trying to get some results through the school, ‘cause the school was supposed to call me back.

Temple Member: Hmm. (Pause) Well, at least it wasn’t a threatening call, though.

Mother: Noo, but I feel indirectly, they were letting me know that I had made those two remarks towards this person who was a member of the Temple.

Temple Member: Well, you– you don’t think that they believed you when you talked to them, that you weren’t the one?

Mother: This– No, this guy didn’t. No.

Temple Member: Huh.

Mother: Huh-uh. Or, he was– (Pause) Or he was trying to upset me a little bit by uh, making me think that he didn’t believe me and that he knew I wasn’t, but I had made these other two calls, trying to get a problem straightened out, and that he was just more or less letting me know that he knew I had made a remark, one way or the other. And my remark was not against the Peoples Temple, it was against (Pause) a member, against a person himself that I was having a problem with. The fact that this person was a member of the Peoples Temple had nothing to do with it.

Temple Member: Well, if the– I mean– (sighs) It had something to do– You’re telling me it had something to do with school then.

Mother: Yes, I– Yeah, it was at school that the problem arose.

Temple Member: Gee, I really–

Mother: And see, I left my name and phone number, and then it was about 20 minutes later I got the call from this man. (Pause) So I don’t– I can’t figure– I don’t know what the deal was. (Pause)

Temple Member: Well, I do hope that school situation is resolved, and if not, I’d really want you to feel free to, you know, say something so that we could, you know, work it out, um– Do you know what I’m saying?

Mother: Yeah.

Temple Member: Because I would hate to have you, you know, if there is any problem to go on with it, you know, because we could probably resolve it so quickly, you know–

Mother: Well, I know it– the problem is a personality conflict between an adult and one of my children. And it works both ways. It– so– Uh, the person does not care for my, my son, and my son does not care for this person.

Temple Member: Well, is it a, um– it isn’t a, um– I hope it isn’t a teacher.

Mother: I– uh– No, no, but I’d rather not, you know, go into it, to who he is, or, or any of this, you know.

Temple Member: Oh. Whew!

Mother: But it uh– I think we’ve got it resolved. I don’t know.

Temple Member: Yeah, because it’d be pretty s– you know, sad if it were a teacher, having to see that person every day, you know.

Mother: Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, in a sense I think sometimes that’s good, though, because we’ve all got to live with–

Temple Member: Right.

Mother: –with and around people that we might–

Temple Member: –not get along with, ‘cause it, you know–

Mother: –not get along with, and, and just despise and, and hate to be even in connected with that we’re forced to in, you know, our everyday life, as we go along, and I think sometimes, when a child has to do this, I’ve always encouraged my kids to stick it out and see it through, and make the best of it.

Temple Member: Right. I’ve found too– I have found too that some of the people that I couldn’t get along with at all, have become my best friends, you know, even teachers in school, you know, that I had the worst time, by the end of the semester, whatever, you know, I ended up appreciating them the most.

Mother: Yes, and my son– my son found a situation like that. I’ll never forget one, and it hasn’t been too many years ago, I was a captain on a bowling league, and we had uh, four captains and our 16 girls, and we were to put the girls’ names in a hat and draw our three names out, you know, for the rest of our team, and I said, no way am I going to draw names out, I do know who I’ll get, I’ll get this certain gal, that her and I don’t get along. And she just really disliked me immensely. I– I don’t have too much problem with people. I can give or take, you know, I can run into my worst enemy and say, “Hi, how are you?” You know.

Temple Member: Um-hmm.

Mother: And– and truly mean it, because I know there’s good in all people. And uh, everybody says, oh no, you won’t get her name, and so I said, all right, I agreed to draw names, and (Laughs) I’ll be darned if hers wasn’t the first name I drew. And I thought oh no, you know, and the first three days I bowled, I was just really upset, and I got to thinking, that I wasn’t hurting her a bit, I was hurting me–

Temple Member: Right.

Mother: –and I was going to have to live with this situation, and so uh, really it got so that she was sort of the laughingstock of the team, because uh, if we lost, she’d complain how I bowled, if we won, she’d brag how she bowled, you know, and everybody got so it was sort of a hysterical thing, because they knew just what was going to happen, you know, that she was going to either go bragging or bitching, one of the two, you know, and uh, when I sit back and see it, why she really, uh, made enemies out of being this way, and by me going along and– and not letting it bother me, which was very difficult for me to do at the time, but I did. But I just had to resign myself to the fact that I was going to be bowling with her, and– and put up with her every week, and that was it, and not to get upset and irritated over the things that she did, and I– I was very proud of myself and I felt much better for it after I had done it, so it was a hard lesson to go through, but I– this is what I try to teach my kids, that sometimes we are just forced with people that we cannot get along with, and we have to.

Temple Member: Well, that’s a good way to teach– you know, most people wouldn’t see it that way, and that’s pretty good. (Laughs)

Mother: Well, I think we have to, ‘cause– (laughs) Well, I’ll tell you, there’s times, you know, you have to work right next to somebody that you dislike, and– and dislike their ways and you, you can bicker and fight and argue all the time, and so, you know, there’s no sense in it, because they’re both human beings and have their rights and– and this type of thing, so you gotta try to get along, is the way I feel about it, so I think I’ve got my problem resolved. I don’t know. I think it’s about a fifty-fifty situation with my son and this other person, it’s about fifty-fifty, so uh, I hope they got it solved anyhow.

Temple Member: So do I.

Mother: I’m not sure. (Laughs) Okay, then. Well, thank you.

Temple Member: Thank you so much for calling.

Mother: Mmm-hmm. Bye-bye.

Temple Member: Bye-bye.

Two minutes of silence

Part 3: Mike Prokes and unidentified woman try to get tape recorder to work

Woman: It moves when I talk.

Prokes: It’s not doing nothing now.

Woman: When I–

Prokes: –recording. (Pause) What the hell’s wrong with this thing?

Woman: Leave it.

Man: Well, it’s– it’s–

Woman: It’s moving (unintelligible)

Prokes: Yeah. It didn’t move when I­–

Woman: Well, when I used the uh– you know, the phone thing? It works. It goes chik-chik-chik.

Prokes: Well, it would. I start praising the machine, and all of a sudden, it goes– It’s messed up.

Several moments of silence

Part 4: Conversation between Temple member and radio station management

Phone rings.

Receptionist: Good Advertising. KDKI.

“Prokes”: Hi. May I please speak to Mr. DeMur, please?

Receptionist: May I ask who’s calling, please?

“Prokes”: I’m Mike Prokes, Assistant Pastor at uh, Peoples Temple Christian Church.

Receptionist: Okay, one moment, please.

(Pause for several moments)

DeMur: Vic DeMur speaking.

“Prokes”: Mr. DeMur?

DeMur: Yes.

“Prokes”: Hi, I’m Mike Prokes, Assistant Pastor with Peoples Temple Christian Church.

DeMur: Uh-huh.

“Prokes”: Uh, Pastor Jones received your letter about the Christmas program, and uh, he asked me to let you know that, as yet we don’t have one, uh, but we would be willing to contribute financially.

DeMur: Um-hmm. (Pause) Uhh. In other words, you don’t have a– a choir or anything that is going to be doing any participating at all this year.

“Prokes”: Well, of course, we do have a choir, but we won’t– we won’t be in the area, so far as I know–

DeMur: Oh.

“Prokes”: –at uh, at that time, so it’d be pretty hard to uh, uh, you know, commit our resources.

DeMur: Yeah. Since you’re not going to be here, it makes it a little difficult, doesn’t it.

“Prokes”: It would be a little– little tough.

DeMur: All right, uh– But you would like to contribute financially to it?

“Prokes”: Uh, yes, Pastor’d be, be more than happy to do that.

DeMur: Okay. Why don’t uh– why don’t we get back to you a little further down the line when we have everything arranged and, and get some positive feedback as to how many people we’re gonna have, and uh, possibly we can put on a show for you, uh, from here.

“Prokes”: Well, that might be very nice.

DeMur: In other words, uh, rather than– (unintelligible word)– we’ll just– you can contribute in the, in the way of sponsorship, and we’ll just put on a show for you.

“Prokes”: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Okay. Well.

DeMur: Okay?

“Prokes”: Right. And uh– Pastor did want me to convey to you that we really appreciate your help in our recent ordeal.

DeMur: Oh, well that’s quite all right. Uh, we had a (unintelligible word– could be “little” or “other”) situation uh, I believe yesterday come up on that.

“Prokes”: Oh, you did?

DeMur: Yeah, where some people decide they want to discuss uh, your situation, so we had to cut ‘em off the air and just go to something else.

“Prokes”: Uh-huh.

DeMur: I guess that’s going to continue for some time, but luckily, we’ve got all the switches in the right place now, so we don’t have to put up with that stuff. (Laughs)

“Prokes”: Uh-huh.

DeMur: (Clears throat) So I guess everything will work out, as long as we can just uh, I– it’s gonna take a while for people to understand that there’re just certain subjects we’re not going to tolerate on the air.

“Prokes”: Right, and I wonder if anyone, uh, had contacted– or attempted to contact Pastor about that.

DeMur: What, yesterday?

“Prokes”: Uh-huh.

DeMur: No, ‘cause the only uh– nothing was ever said, it was uh, it was the type of thing where the lady called in, and she said, I want to talk about Peoples Temple, and that was the end of the conversation right there, we just cut her off the air, and it wasn’t– didn’t even pursue it any further, so, you know– (Laughs) it was just one of these things where, I guess that type of thing is gonna keep happening as long– until they realize that they’re gonna be cut off the air and not discuss it–

“Prokes”: Uh-huh.

DeMur: Uh– It’s gonna take a while for them to understand it. (unintelligible word under interruption)

“Prokes”: Well, we certainly appreciate your attitude, it’s uh–

DeMur: Oh, that’s quite all right, I, you know, I don’t– I don’t mind uh, you know– as long as something is newsworthy and is beneficial to the community, I’m will– I’m willing to put it on the air, but when it starts sticking people in the eye, uh, you know, that’s no fun at all.

“Prokes”: Well–

DeMur: There’s gotta be better things to do with your time. (Laughs)

“Prokes”: Certainly. Certainly so. And I will pass that on to Pastor.

DeMur: Okay. And if uh, there’s anything else we can do to help you, just give us a holler.

“Prokes”: Okay, thank you very much–

DeMur: Okedoke.

“Prokes”: –and we’ll be waiting to hear from you.

DeMur: Thank you.

“Prokes”: Uh-huh. Bye now.

DeMur: Bye.

(Silence for several moments)

Part 5: Unintelligible murmuring, clicks of phone equipment


Part 6: Conversation between Jim Jones and Dennis Denny

Phone rings.

Receptionist: Social Services. May we help you?

Jones: Yes, uh, Mr. Denny, please.

Receptionist: May I say who’s calling, sir?

Jones: Reverend Jones. Thank you.

Receptionist: Thank you.


Secretary: Good afternoon. Mr. Denny’s office.

Jones: Yes, is Mr. Denny in?

Secretary: Hold on, please.

Jones: Thank you.


Denny: This is Mr. Denny.

Jones: Yes, Mr. Denny. Jim Jones.

Denny: Hi, Jim.

Jones: I came to you, uh, just as you came to me the other day. I’m slightly infuriated, and maybe without cause. Mrs. uh, Marable [Birdie Marable] called one of our people, and said, “You were in trouble with the welfare,” that she’d been in to welfare and heard that we were in trouble with the welfare. And of course, that may be paranoia striking too deep, but I thought, (stumbles over words), and she’d bragged that she’d been given three extra patients, and this uh, this slightly infuriated me, if I thought that some worker there would uh, air difficulties that really do not reflect (unintelligible under Denny)–

Denny: When was she in here? Did– Did your information tell you that?

Jones: I didn’t get– I did not, uh. Said she was in, in the welfare–

Denny: I will look into it immediately, personally–

Jones: –and uh, I– I don’t, uh– I’m just assuming, “in trouble with the welfare” could mean any number of innuendoes or gossip, but uh, the coincidence–

Denny: Well, Mrs. Marable– yeah, Mrs. Marable, as you well know, and I’m surely not insinuating that this is accurate, because I will check out the other side of it, but she is notorious for the ability to play two uh, ends against the middle and this is uh–

Jones: Well, I– that– that makes me feel good that­ (unintelligible under Denny)

Denny: –but she’s always been a problem, but I don’t want to beg off that that is in fact what has occurred here. I want to get to the bottom of it–

Jones: Well, I’m– I’m– I’m going to d– deal with this woman in the court, if she doesn’t quit harassing us. There’s certainly some–

Denny: Well, she’s starting to, uh– she’s uh, I– I could possibly apply the same uh, uh, same tone to uh, to what she’s doing to us, because she knows, there are (unintelligible word), well– uh, I’ve already stated this to Tim [Stoen], and I– I felt that– I don’t feel I’m–

Jones: Umm-hmm. I– You don’t– Don’t– Don’t feel that you need to express– (unintelligible under Denny)

Denny: All right, I want– (unintelligible under Jones)

Jones: I don’t– I didn’t have the slightest doubt about you, but–

Denny: No. But these people are asking–

Jones: I’m– I– I know that I cannot control my department and uh, I– entirely. I try very hard to control this large congregation, and uh, I’m– and I’m not in no way, uh, has my faith uh, been slightly, even slightly affected by this in reference to you, but I don’t– That’s why, when Mr. McWiggin calls, uh, if um, if you’d tell him to stress that he’s authorized or something, or if he’s calling, I’ll ask you, uh, he’s calling wanting to speak to Mr. or Mrs. Beam, Senior [Jack and Rheaviana Beam]. I don’t have the slightest paranoia when I’m dealing with you. Anything you ask me to do, I will do with, with great willingness. But when other people call, I get uh– (unintelligible under Denny)

Denny: Well, he’s acting– Let– Let me, first of all, before I leave this topic, I will handle that personally, I will do that as soon as I hang up. Uh, as to whether or not she’s been in here in the last couple of days, whether or not any of the staff was–

Jones: I think it was– She said, (stumbles over words) I’m only recalling now from, uh, second hand, that I think it was uh, two days ago.

Denny: Okay, well, two days ago, all right. So that would put it at Wednesday, uh, if she was in here, I’ll see the log and I’ll see who she talked to, uh, if she was in physically or if we had her on the telephone.

Jones: And I thought that would be uh, a terrible, a terrible thing that uh, people wouldn’t have any more discretion than that, um, to– to make reflections on the church in the first place– If a Catholic uh, came in there and in some way violated some code, uh, the whole Catholic Church wouldn’t be brought in to question.

Denny: That’s correct. That’s right.

Jones: Um– in first place, if this wasn’t an unusual case in an unusual lad that had helped 15 other young people in a very positive way, I would uh, this kind of a case, I– I’m mortified, to say the least, that in mem– one of my members would be even be suggested that they would be involved in child abuse. I’m mortified. Uh, but then, again, uh, the whole church shouldn’t have been judged by that– and our inference is made to–

Denny: But my– my problem is, and my concern is, if it’s a problem, is that that could happen, and I don’t want that to happen, if I can uh, stay away from it.

Jones: Well, I don’t think it would be with Margaret. Margaret’s usually her contact. Margaret has been cordial– it didn’t– didn’t happen with any planning, but we just so happen to employ, I think her son or her nephew, I don’t know which it was, has an attorney, and he’s a very crackerjack attorney– (unintelligible under Denny)

Denny: Well, we should pledge– we should judge people­– (unintelligible under Jones)

Jones: We’re looking forward to giving him more, uh, more work. But uh, since that time, so I’ve heard, uh, off whatever – maybe that didn’t have anything to do with it – but her attitude has been um, not as bitey or uh, there’s not been the snide remarks that we pick up in the uh, community rumor mill. Uh– So I– I don’t know who it would have been. She didn’t quote anyone. She just said that “You are in trouble with the welfare, ha ha ha.” And uh, that– that kind of an attitude, and uh– (unintelligible under Denny) she boasts–

Denny: But she didn’t uh, indicate uh, she didn’t indicate–

Jones: She did not stress what kind of trouble.

Denny: Or she didn’t indicate who the conversation was with.

Jones: No, nor did she pinpoint the individual. Uh, but I felt, rather than let this thing get into my gut–

Denny: No, sir, I will take–

Jones: –I wanted to do just as you did, to call me directly and uh– (unintelligible under Denny)

Denny: Right. I appreciate that. I want– I will– As I said, I will handle it personally. I will uh, I’ll find that out uh, exactly what occurred there. But I– I’m al– I’m really fearful of this lady, uh, she is uh, she plays the same game with us, so we’ve had other, I might add, other complaints, I don’t know if I’m sharing things with you, but we’ve had other complaints–

Jones: Ah, you’ve never– you’ve never found me yet quote you, I’m sure.

Denny: Yeah– And I don’t uh–

Jones: And you’ll not find me doing it in the future.

Denny: Uh. There was another point about her that uh, that came up, uh. Oh, what I– what I’d said is I’d mentioned to Tim that her license is in jeopardy, and she knows it. Uh, and I think that she’s– she will play uh, you know, the, the role of uh, of trying to get on the good side, when it actually is the worst side she can possibly be in such a malicious way. This woman is malicious.

Jones: Well, uh, she’s that, and I– that’s why I said to you this week, when you started to tell me, you were dealing with that, I said, I have the implicit trust in you that you will handle that situation. But then I thought, some worker, if they’re giving her patients, which seem to me uh, a[n] odd thing to do with a woman who I know to be not only vicious but to be uh, physical, uh, physically abusive, uh, I– I thought maybe some worker was not aware what they were doing.

Denny: She uh– I– No, someone has uh– I had information that there was someone had uh, placed two people there that had known her–

Jones: I had privately– Well, you know–

Denny: –she was– it was not an actually placement from our– our department–

Jones: No, we had nothing to do about that.

Denny: No, it was that she went out and recruited, in quotes, she did the recruitment on s– on– I knew of a couple, now, I don’t know of a third, but I know of two.

Jones: Well, she’s a liar. She could not– She possibly doesn’t even have all of her beds filled, but she– Well, and that’s uh–

Denny: Well, I don’t know if she does or doesn’t, I know of the one instance of how she got some people.

Jones: But anyway, she was bragging about it, and– and bothering one of our people, and she calls our rest home, the geriatric home next to the church, she calls that constantly, where the people live voluntarily there together, and– and manage their own affairs, uh, she’s always calling those people and harassing them, and I– I don’t– I’m going to take it into hand if she doesn’t uh, ah, she claims it now, she’s found uh, uh, Jesus (unintelligible word) with uh, some uh– some new group, and um, I– I’m glad for her, but it doesn’t bespeak, if she’s found a new renewal of uh, of Christ that– that she thinks is better than what we have to offer, uh, it doesn’t bespeak in her character. I wished the woman certainly could get transformed. Uh, we miserably failed with her, although she didn’t come to church enough to get any real influence from our teachings. But uh, it’s– I would welcome a transformation in that woman’s life. But it isn’t coming through, and uh, I don’t appreciate her goading us. But that’s not your problem. The problem that did concern me was, that in– if someone in the welfare had no more sense than to tell her that, I uh– I knew you’d want to know about it.

Denny: I do want to know about it, and uh, I’m going to take uh–

Jones: And it may not be that at all, she may be just guessing–

Denny: I don’t know, I don’t know, but I’m going to find out.

Jones: All right.

Denny: Ah, (sighs) I had another point, and I’m sorry I lost that, uh, Jim, while I had you on the line.

Jones: I’m fine. I’m sorry. I have a tendency to chatter too much.

Denny: I was working this morning trying to get those charges eliminated on this criminal side, and uh, I’m not making much headway. I gotta spend more time, I guess, I don’t know what the hell is happening in that D.A.’s office, uh, really, to be honest with you. Maybe you have better insight into that than I do–

Jones: Uh, Duncan (unintelligible sentence, including name said three times) –press those charges?

Denny: Pardon?

Jones: They’re considering to press charges against him?

Denny: Well, uh, what I want him is to be not even to consider them, and I don’t know where in the hell they are, or what they’re going to do, and uh, that bothers me right now. Uh. But that’s my problem, uh, to see where, what this– what they’re going to do with whatever the sheriff’s office ever came up with that.

Jones: Hmm.

Denny: So, uh–

Jones: Well, I know this, uh, I– all the support I’ve given to some of these, these people, that uh, have met the difference in their– their careers, I– I– I just don’t– I’ve never asked them for one kindly favor, never one time have I talked to any, any one of them, um, the sheriff or Duncan James, until this time came up. And this young man’s total behavior and character is so redemptive, that I– I uh– well, I– if they– if they do that, I– my whole tone of support will change, that’s all. I’m– I’m uh, I’m disgusted with them, if they would– if they would pursue that uh, a criminal matter.

Denny: Well, I’m trying to uh– (Short laugh) As I have pledged to you, that I will not uh, have you uh, you know, uh, criticize that pledge, uh. When I give my word that I’m going to try to do something, I’m going to do it. And you know, there’re certain– There are always limitations, but at least my action will uh, hopefully be proven.

Jones: No, we– we–

Denny: And uh, I’m not making any headway today, and I’m getting a little antsy about that.

Jones: The response was, that there wasn’t– uh, the response that I got, uh, which I know you wouldn’t uh, say, you wouldn’t quote me, that would– that– that– that ordinarily this type of thing will not go, uh, to any prosecution. But now, what– what’s the new uh, element?

Denny: I don’t know that there is any new element, unless uh, anything has happened uh, later this afternoon, uh. Have you had any word, uh, sometime today at all on that, or is it uh– (unintelligible word under Jones)

Jones: No, I haven’t talked– because I was sort of relieved of that side of it, and I was only interested in working with you, because they relieved my mind somewhat of that. Uh, and I was– (unintelligible word under Denny)

Denny: Today?

Jones: No, no, that was uh, on Monday, but they supposedly had all the facts – I think it was Monday – they had all the facts before them by then, um– and I was only interested in getting a resolution and– to work with you to where to place the youngster. I didn’t know that there was a criminal thing being in any further consideration. What, did they give you some indication there–

Denny: Well, I haven’t seen any– I haven’t seen that being resolved, Jim, and that’s what I’m concerned about. It’s Friday. And I don’t know where in the hell that is.

Jones: Well, I’ve got no– Did we mean there’s a complaint laying someplace (unintelligible phrase under Denny)

Denny: Well, the sheriff is going to do something with, with the matter. And if it sits for five days, you know, I want– I want to know, uh, and uh, I’m not getting very good answers, so–

Jones: Have you talked to John Dahl himself?

Denny: Well, I haven’t done that, and uh, I don’t like to do that, uh, at this point in time, but maybe–

Jones: Well, he’d spoken of having a very uh, courteous and close relationship with you, so–

Denny: Well, I have a very uh, close relationship with him, but I like to keep uh–

Jones: No, I– I don’t want– I don’t want you to compromise your (unintelligible phrase under Denny)

Denny: (unintelligible phrase under Jones) –business issue with uh–

Jones: (stumbles over words) I had talked to him about some of these matters, which I have clear witnesses of, uh, that uh, the uh, bias of uh, some– one deputy. Now that one deputy may want to hound the thing, but uh, I– it’d be ill-advised, because certainly, if it gets to court, I’m going to bring in some of these factors. Uh, I would think it’d be ill-advised for him to uh, to push that. I di– I didn’t get any feeling that John Dahl was wanting anything more than whatever the welfare department uh, came up with, what– I’m not your– I mean the custodial services, whatever it came up with was more or less what it seemed to stand, and uh, and, and Mr. Ford Duncan, the feeling was that he was a supporter of corporal punishment, and provided that uh, the child had uh, incorrigible patterns like this– now I’m paraphrasing, and please don’t quote me–

Denny: No, no.

Jones: But this is in essence what he said, that in cases like this, he just wouldn’t do anything about it, uh, (stumbles over words), long as you– I spoke well of him, well of you to him, and uh, that I was immediately in contact with you about it, I didn’t make any commitment of, of, of you, uh, no way did I commit you about the matter, I didn’t even discuss what we’d discussed, other than to say, that I’d been in close contact with you, and you have been always so good to be fair on every matter. And I said I knew there was no, uh, (stumbles over words) uh, no one out for blood in your department. That may have been a little far out, um, because I don’t know everybody that’s in your department. But uh, that was the– I think that was reasonably what I said, and I know that a superintendent of education called him, telling him they didn’t want any prosecution. So uh, it uh, it’s uh, it’s a, it’s a situation that you’re probably much more familiar with than how the wh– the wheels grind. I’ve never had one of my people in court, but– but one time, one time, and uh, he was clearly guilty of something, using some slugs in the parking meter, and the police, the chief of police, this uh, officer was good enough to call us and ask what to do, and I said, what has he done, and he said, well, he put some slugs, uh, he works for the newspaper, and he used some slugs, uh, different ones in the newspaper had been using slugs in parking meters. I said, well, that’s against our teachings. So he asked–

Denny: That was a very foolish thing to do–

Jones: – he’d have to face the music. Now that’s the only c–­ case I ever know, and I nev– we didn’t lift a finger to defend him. We said, “Face the music. You’ve been taught better than that, this dishonest thing to do,” but in this case, the only reason I’m in it, Mr. Denny– Now I were– if this man had had any pattern of child abuse, and he had been a uh, individual who had not had the greatest of sympathies to human beings, you wouldn’t have found me even call you once.

Denny: I know that.

Jones: I’da said, “Take your music,” and I would detach myself from the nefarious situation. It’s already mortifying enough that uh– whatever he spanked with, uh, even if it was a switch, he spanked too hard – that’s my conclusion – or there wouldn’t be this issue.

Denny: Jim, you know– you know that in my professional and educational and in experience in dealing, that you know in your own mind that whatever decision I made on that issue, was precisely to those facts and nothing else.

Jones: Umm-hmm.

Denny: Uh, I’m sure– I’m sure by what you’re saying that that supports that, uh, it was– it was in such a situation that one could not ignore facts uh, from uh, uh, mini– in an attempt to minimize that there was no way to do that, especially when you’ve got so many witnesses. (Laughs) It gets very difficult.

Jones: Well, this– this– the– the only thing I could say, that I do think is a certain mitigating circumstances uh, circumstance is that a– an incorrigible uh, who has been adjudged, and we have evidence of that uh, both being sociopathic and uh, pathological in his lying, and kleptomaniac, what in the name of heaven, anyone could understand the dilemma where the school has asked him on one occasion to spank and asked for permission, the former principal, to spank him, you can understand how the kid got into this, uh, spanking business, which is (stumbles over words) disapproved of by me, it certainly should have seemed that– that the uh– the arresting officer would have some, uh– knowing the background of this lad, would have a slight bit of empathy uh, for a lad who’s never had an arrest record, and who in fact had a degree in social service, though he’s now a gr– he runs a garage, uh, it looks to me that they uh, they would’ve looked into that, and our entire church has never once had one of their people arrested, says something for the kind of teaching and character and integrity of, of an organization. And that’s all I was asking. It’s– it’s probably bordering on asking consideration, but I never have before, and I certainly have been asked for consideration. When people want votes, they don’t hesitate to ask me for consideration, and I have produced, and I have brought uh, some good people into government in this, in this county, uh, which I’da– I would do again, but it– it seems to me that it ought to be a two-way street, that when a young man has all these decent things that can be documented – I don’t ask anyone to take my word for it – but they can be documented that he has all this background of good character, that they ought not to hang him on one incident.

Denny: Well, this is now– now we’re coming to a point in Mr. McWiggin’s uh, responsibilities uh, that he has in the department. What we’re attempting to show is that good character, Mr., uh, Jim.

Jones: Well, I’m sure you are, I (unintelligible phrase under Denny) any doubt about it–

Denny: Uh– The only– Because the, the facts that are presented uh, will relate to character and uh, what will– what is being done uh, and I think you asked about this, that whoever is seen or questioned, it is to support or uh, our particular theory and findings if you will of uh, of good moral fortitude and, and– (unintelligible word under Jones)

Jones: Well, I– I– I have no doubt about you. As I’ve said, if you ever lost your position there, I’d like to be the first to have the opportunity to hire you, but when Mr. McWiggin was giving him candy and sending candy up to Mrs. uh, Rubin and saying that uh, that they’d like to talk to you, I thought that this was slightly lacking in the kind of protocol to deal with the troubled child, um– but maybe I’m– maybe I’m out of touch with uh, social services. I used to, years ago, I worked in the uh, Ohio County welfare department when I was going to college. But uh, I– I know I’m not abreast of all the– the patterns, but it seemed like it was a very indulgent behavior, from what was described to me.

Denny: Well, what you– any, any kind of m– methodology is acceptable if it’s effective. If it is not effective, then somebody’s shown misjudgment, and that’s about the easiest uh, principle we’ve found. (unintelligible word under Jones)

Jones: The one thing we have found, and I think you made comment, and I took it to heart, you made comment to one of our workers and they passed it on to me, don’t reinforce, don’t reward with material things. Well, we rarely do. Usually our reinforcement is uh, trips and– and uh, educational experiences, or use of the pool and various things of that nature. But we’ve found that this kid is the most manipulative youngster in the world, and if he think he’s got you conned, there’s no end to what he will do. Some–

Denny: Well, he’ll play out his string on it.

Jones: Someone approached us there, (stumbles over words) approached one of us and said, uh, do you have a bicycle? Well, they– he– they said he had a bicycle, and they wanted it. Well, if he’s got a bicycle, he had to s– had to steal it, because he was going– the– the Beams were going to buy him one for Christmas. And that’s just how fast an operator he is. If he hasn’t, I’ll bet my lower teeth, which I still have – and my uppers – I’ll bet them both that uh, he’s already stolen, because the kid doesn’t know how– it– it seems to be almost a compulsive pattern with him, um, and I– who wouldn’t be, I’m not– God, I wished that Jack and I had known. I wish we’d all known that he had been uh, witnessed his mother being murdered uh, and then have to wipe up the blood. If that’s the truth, then he should never have even been spanked even lightly, in my opinion.

Denny: I question uh– At this point in time, I question uh, that uh–

Jones: You think that’s just another one of his (unintelligible word under Denny) bizarre stories–

Denny: Well, our findings in that bizarre story is rather bizarre at best.

Jones: (Laughs)

Denny: Uh, we have the–

Jones: Oh, you relieve a burden of guilt, don’t– I’ve had a lot of guilt about this. By the way, to make you– I told Mr. McWiggin, or I had one of my secretaries tell him, that I thought it would get back to you, because I didn’t want to take more of your time, I said uh– I didn’t know this is– this is going to come up– I wanted you to know, I have given an– uh, the strongest order that I can give–

End of side one

Side two

Denny: –they apparently, the boy’d given some with many respects, and that is, uh, I– I have a, a deep feeling, I think, uh, concerning such situations. The easy things, Jim, are easy for everybody– I don’t want easy things. I want to do more than just what’s easy. I– I– you know, too many people are willing to sit back and not take risks, uh–

Jones: Yes, but I don’t want to cause risks for you. Uh– uh–

Denny: No. You’ve never– you know–

Jones: Well, this guardianship business, the whole blessed guardianship business, from what I gathered after talking to you, that our people didn’t pick up, and they were deeply apologetic, that we are in– uh, we’re not– we’re on a best uneasy ground with the whole guardianship principle. And that’s what I want to get out of.

Denny: You– well, yes. And uh– But uh, that was– that was the legal side of the house, uh, that wanted it, as far as I’m concerned.

Jones: Well, the legal house is down– voted down now, 93 members of our board, we voted it down. No more guardianships.

Denny: Yeah. It’s a risk. It’s a high risk, and I– I attempted in possibly– probably a very feeble way and a very ineffective way to point that out, but there was no listening to that.

Jones: Well, we’re pollyannaish. Idealists are pollyannaish, you know–

Denny: That’s true

Jones: We– we want to– we want to save the world, and uh, this has been good for us, if we can only get through without this young man be– his future being hampered, there’s lot

Denny: That’s what I–

Jones: –lots that’s been learned, uh, like what– there was some point you made that uh, well, it’s slipped my mind, that I told the board, I said that was such a good point. (Pause) Well, anyway, it’s uh– a lot of things you said have uh, really uh, lodged in fertile ground, and we’ve passed it on. Uh, and uh, there was a very good phrase you gave, uh–

Denny: But none of this, none of this is ever in, in, in criticism, but what is meant is to build a foundation that we can be most effective in a very humanitarian way, and that’s all I’m interested in (unintelligible word under Jones)–

Jones: Well, I’d like you to suggest– it seems to me that we ought to have uh, maybe a uh, in a city area where we’re not so controversial, where you’re not uh, the largest church, uh, twenty times larger than the average church here, uh, where you don’t stick out like a, a sore thumb, where you don’t have a mixed racial congregation, where uh, there is still a lot of latent racism from my ministerial friends, uh, and police officers alike, and John Dahl told me, there’s a lot of (stumbles over words) provinciality, small towns do, sometimes, there is a parallel of small minds, and uh, we ought to do this, it seems to me, where we’ve got 5000 members in San Francisco, and we would not even be observed and be welcomed. It seems to me that’s where we need to build, maybe a private school where we could uh, build a– work with these children and have the resource people right there on the facilities. Certainly in the big city, there’s things they can get into. But if these children have had a, a wealth of background in the ghetto, they can not only get into trouble here, but they can invite others into trouble. You know.

Denny: Um. You know, I cannot debate that.

Jones: And so we’re not bringing any more. Uh, the lawyers, uh, have lost on the guardianship. I– Oh I– I think one of the– what stuck with me, you said, “What if this had been my home? What if I had approved this home?” And I says, see, and how– we ought to empathize, here, that this man– We’ve approved this man’s home, in a sense, though the guardianship was handed to him, we didn’t do it as a church, he made his own arrangements, but we are being judged by this, there’ll be people that’ll judge us forever.

Denny: That’s the reality of it. That’s the reality, yes. That’s the difficult part.

Jones: And he– he is one of the best human beings I know. Now if he could get uh, uh, overwhelmed, and spank a child, good– uh, goodness knows we’ve got somebody else that could do it. So I made the flattest of orders, than anyone who used corporal punishment will be brought up for uh, question about their membership, because I’ve gotten uh, a lot of opinions now – we should have gotten them before – uh, some psychologists have told us that the right thing to do, you should spank these, uh, Dr. Spock [baby doctor Benjamin Spock] was wrong, and you get all these different uh, wo– ki– countercurrents of thought. But uh, I’ve found the general consensus is, that corporal punishment is not– that there’s no place for it, really, in the development of a child.

Denny: Well, there’s– I’m sure there’s more acceptable and just as efficient ways than showing uh, one’s physical domination over a situation, and I uh, I do not condone it–

Jones: Well, good.

Denny: –and I think there’s other areas in–

Jones: Good. Well, I’m– I’m glad I– Well, I took that firm position, and you’ll not hear any more corporal punishment of any type, you’ll won’t have to be bothered with our people, because when I make a real stern demand, it’s usually, usually recognized, and I demanded it.

Denny: Okay. Jim, I want to uh, I want to get on that issue that uh, provoked your call, and if you don’t mind–

Jones: What can I do, to– to look into this other, the other departments to see where uh, uh, this case with Beam is, should I–

Denny: Uh–

Jones: Can you contact with those? I have reasonable rapport with–

Denny: Well, see, my concern, it’s been a week, and uh, nobody’s given me any answers, um. I’m trying to be uh, not, you know, kind of a disinterested party which I uh, I am finding very difficult to be. (laughs) I’m just trying to do my thing here on uh, on the child protective side, and not get involved in anything else, but I’m getting a little antsy about that.

Jones: Well, if they– if they– if they don’t give some consideration to background that you’re building up with this young man, which I can also help you in any way (unintelligible phrase under Denny)–

Denny: I told– I think you will, uh, I, I think so– from some conversation that you would have from uh, Mr. Beam, one of the firm commitments that I made to him in the meeting that I had with (unintelligible word under Jones)–

Jones: He said so. He said so.

Denny: –was the fact that we are not going at this in a negative atmosphere. My staff hear that. And if they violate that, then they don’t work with me. But they– we are going at this in a positive frame of reference, and that we are attempting to support that positive frame of reference, by character uh, uh, support in the communities, with many contacts. It’s not negative.

Jones: Well, I tell them– uh, on balance– yeah, on balance, from McWiggin, McWiggin talked very kindly to Beam. I think I told you that, when I was critical of his posture before with the child, uh, uh, I– I– I think on balance, he has not been unkind to Beam, and Beam felt some at peace, and Carter felt at peace, and the doctor’s report– they– the doctor, well, Art’s uh, client attorney has contacted the doctor, and the doctor uh, is– dealt with a lot of abuse, and he– he minimized this. So it would seem to me, that uh, if he isn’t uh– I don’t know what would be holding up– Could it be just procrastination?

Denny: I don’t know.

Jones: I’m quoting things out– I’m really quoting the attorney, please don’t quote me on that.

Denny: It well– That might be procrastination, I don’t know. I– That’s what I’m saying. I brought the subject up. I don’t know.

Jones: Well, it’s thoughtful of you to do so.

Denny: I don’t uh– and maybe it’s unfair for me just not to come out and say what the hell to you know, I– I just say, I don’t know anything. (Laughs) Uh, and that makes me uneasy. When I don’t know something, I get a little antsy.

Jones: Well, I shall uh, I shall–

Denny: That’s means that I’ve lost control of a situation, I guess, and I just don’t like being put in that posture. But, anyway, Jim–

Jones: No, when you’re in control, the community [is] better.

Denny: –if– I do want to get on that other matter and uh–

Jones: Well, is there anything that I can do to see that these people don’t make that mistake, uh, they’re making a great mistake, ‘cause I’ve been a very good supporter of this community, but if they do this to one of my people, I’m going to pull in my shell.

Denny: Mmm.

Jones: I mean that. I’m not– If they allow that to go through, and give him the axe, uh, that’s a terrible charge that he’ll never live down. Now they don’t realize how utterly loyal, (stumbles over words) if they were to fire you tomorrow, I’d uh– I would do everything in my power to see that we didn’t lose a man of your caliber. It’d be the same if it were Duncan James, or it’d be the same if it were John Dahl.

Denny: I know–

Jones: When I– When I see good people in this community– it’s not any great heroics on my part, it’s enlightened self-interest. I want good people to remain where they are. But my loyalty extends not only to the church, it extends to people that I’ve found decent in the community. And one day– I hope you never have to see it, but you’ll find it–

Denny: I have found– I– I have my uh, my whole frame of reference is to what you speak. Or you and I would not be talking as we do.

Jones: Well, you’ll find that when– (unintelligible word under Denny)– You’ll find a drawing power, one day, if you ever need it. I’ve got– I’m worth a lot, when it comes to strength and support, and I don’t understand those two– the other two departments who really I guess you’ve been saying (unintelligible word under Denny)–

Denny: Well, I’m not– and I’m surely not, uh– I don’t know. I– I don’t know about the other two departments, I guess is what I’m saying.

Jones: I see. Well–

Denny: And uh, I– I surely do not uh, sit either pro or con (unintelligible word under Jones)

Jones: Well, I’m not going to be quoting you, one way or the other.

Denny: I don’t know– Yeah, but that’s fine. I– I– You could, because I– I don’t know what the stance is, and I uh, I– I just get uneasy when I don’t know what uh, what my heading is, you know, in a situation.

Jones: All right, well, I uh–

Denny: And I’ve probably taken advantage of, of your insight, and maybe you had something, that I shouldn’t have done that, I, I should have– (unintelligible word under Jones)

Jones: All I know is a positive approach, and I know you won’t quote that, unless he says it to you, from Duncan, that there was very little likelihood anything be done with it. Now, now, I don’t know, uh, based on what he’d heard of it, becau– I think he– he wo– uh, mention something, the belief that uh, an incorrigible, that if it was this type of background, he could un– he’d have empathy, uh, in the matter, and there would not anything done about it, not that he was in any way supporting child abuse.

Denny: Well, then that’s good, and if that’s what he said, then that’s good enough for me. I’ve had no question about Duncan’s uh, ver– you know, his truthfulness and veracity–

Jones: I think for Duncan’s sake– ‘cause Duncan’s a good friend of yours and in highest of praise for your department. I don’t think we– I don’t think we should lose Duncan. What I think the sheriff– if he puts that uh– Duncan’s having a little bit of his own static these days. What I really hate– I’m just telling– talking to a friend now– uh, what I hate is if the sheriff department would not push that (unintelligible word) to Duncan, to have to uh, put a thumb down on it, it’d be better that– because–

Denny: Yeah. Well, he should she– he should keep the heat off of Duncan’s office. You’re right. And he’s had a little excessive uh, (unintelligible word under Jones) sweat in the last (unintelligible word under Jones)–

Jones: That’s what I feel. That’s what I feel. That’s what I feel.

Denny: Uh– You can’t bring another one on, you know, you can’t compound a man’s uh, problems.

Jones: That’s what I feel.

Denny: Uh, but anyway, the both of the gentlemen, uh, and others uh, that we’ve spoken tonight, you know, I happen to feel highly of, I just don’t have an answer, and I, uh, I get uneasy when I don’t have answers.

Jones: Well, if you do get an answer, I would certainly uh, be eternally grateful if you’d let me know.

Denny: I will. I will commit that, that I will call you uh, within reasonable hours uh–

Jones: Well, you don’t worry about my reasonable hours, I will try to be more reasonable with your hours, but you call me anyway, unreasonable hour–

Denny: No, I uh, I will uh, I will get that information to you uh, whichever way we go, if– if I have it– if it’s– if it comes to me, and I know you do not have insight into the information, I will, uh, I will pass that on to you.

Jones: I just sort of took the word of Duncan, but I (unintelligible word) a great deal of empathy for Duncan– (unintelligible word under Denny)

Denny: Well, that’s good enough for me. If he gave you his word, then that’s good enough for me.

Jones: But– uh, what I would like, is that, that the sheriff’s department would do their part in the matter, which I’ve never asked any kind uh, of consideration from them, that they didn’t put it on his table, uh, as you said, with this pressure that he got from the grand jury, which I never have quite–

Denny: Well, he’s gotten it from a lot of (unintelligible word under Jones), yeah, there surely have been a–

Jones: Somebody’s after him, and I’ve not quite been able to ascertain it. I hear rumors that one of the judges don’t find him uh, too acceptable, but law enforcement respect him highly, uh, as far as I can gather. You, uh, you know the community currents as well as I do.

Denny: Well–

Jones: It’s– obviously somebody’s out for an a– an axe to grind with Duncan, and I think it’d be a tragedy if–

Denny: Well, I’ll tell you, the best uh, the best man in that whole organization is Tim, to be very honest with you, and I wouldn’t say it if I didn’t mean it. That’s the whole strength of that damn office.

Jones: Is that so?

Denny: There are some weaknesses there, Jim, there are some weaknesses, and I’ve Duncan this, so I’m not saying anything–

Jones: Well, I’m not going to quote that–

Denny: But I– I respect the man for a lot of other things, but uh, the strength of that office is that, is that counsel (unintelligible word under Jones)

Jones: Well– Well, I’ll take your opinion. What– Whatever, if– if the man is coming up for election, I would hate for it to be something he had done in uh, reference to Peoples Temple that could be used, and I could just see a situation like, that uh– You can look down the road. So if the sheriff’s department would do a– would only be reasonably fair, I– I can give them a lot of cases, and believe me, I’ve got a lot of cases to afford about that department. Uh, I don’t– I don’t want to– I want– I want to be low profile, I– but if they attack one of my people, I will fight like an old hen.

Denny: Yeah.

Jones: And I’ll fight with what I have. And I’ve got some documented evidence about things there that isn’t uh– I don’t think would be the kind of uh, situation that should be aired. But I’m not going to allow him to go down, um, um, without– without a fight.

Denny: I want to uh, I want to get on that other matter, Jim, and so I uh, I will handle that right–

Jones: Thank you. I’ve talked too long. Forgive me for the long conver–

Denny: Oh, no, it’s always my pleasure, and very (unintelligible word under Jones)

Jones: Don’t hesitate to cut me off, it’s perfectly all right. Take care now.

Denny: This has, uh, great ramification, and uh, I hope I’m applying uh, my skill and whatever I have (unintelligible word under Jones)

Jones: I’ve found it thus far, and uh, if you– uh, I want you to know that I don’t uh, require uh, any kind of perfection. You’ve done enough that I would make allowances for a great deal in our relationship. You have a friend, and uh, uh–

Denny: But that’s uh– But that’s what makes you great. (Laughs)

Jones: Well, I hope so. Take care. (unintelligible word under Denny)

Denny: All right. I want to get on this, and I uh, I’ll uh, try to, in the next time I talk with you, I probably won’t bring it back specifically, but I uh, I will be able to report back to you when we talk in the future.

Jones: All right. Thanks so much.

Denny: Goodbye.

Jones: Bye.

End of tape

Tape originally posted April 2002