Q933 Transcript

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.

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(Note: This tape was one of the 53 tapes initially withheld from public disclosure.)

Male 1: I’d just like to say, this idiot (unintelligible word)— You’ve been in the bush, but you’ve only been around where people are always at— alwa— all— they’re there all the time, and there ain’t going to be no animals there. You get out in the Venezuelan jungle, and you’re going to run into every kind of fucking thing in the— They— They would’ve killed you, if— if— You’re lucky we found you. (Pause) You know what lives here, man, you know it. Don’t say you don’t. (Unintelligible word under interruption)

Jones: What lives there? You know about— You know about it? The (unintelligible word; sounds like "kima")? The puma? The leopard? The ocelot? ‘Bout 50 different uh, breeds of uh, poisonous reptiles? (Pause) Are you aware of this— any of this? How long you been around here?

Young man in trouble: Fourteen months, Father.

Jones: The anaconda?

Young man in trouble: I’m not aware of all of this—

Jones: Thirty-six foot long? Can crush a horse in seconds? (Pause) You (unintelligible word)— Don’t you think you owed a— Water commoty [phonetic]? You didn’t know about the great mammoth water commoty?

Young man in trouble: Yes, Father.

Jones: And the land commoty of top of it? Didn’t you think you should’ve told your brother this? Tripping out in the wo— in the jungles? Did you not think that this government is our ally?

Young man in trouble: Yes, Father, I did.

Jones: Well, what did you— what did you think— how did you manage to think you were going to get in Venezuela without— with the government alerted. I’ve alerted every person in this government. The prime minister [Forbes Burnham] on down. The Border Patrol said, if you try to cross, you’d be shot. (Pause) How did you think you were going to get out of here? (Pause)

Young man in trouble: I was— I was going to go down there by the uh, Baramba River and stay down there.

Jones: (unintelligible intro) Well, they’ve all be alerted. No boat would dare pick you up, it’da been a violation of the law. All the canoes. (Pause)

Male 2: Coast Guard was already notified here to come up and down the river looking for you already. So you didn’t have a chance in the world. (Pause)

Jones: You think I’ve located in this jungle, knowing all the scalawags like you that’ve done this shit before, after been through Leon’s lies. (Pause) We knew that wasn’t sufficient, if Leon [Perry?] could make it, even though he’s a vegetable, that— that wouldn’t be enough for you people. We knew there’d be others. So we had firm wor— working alliances. We had— We wanted Leon gone, ‘cause we knew he was [a] babbling idiot by the time they found him. Talking about fighting in World War III. You heard all that. (Pause) So we wanted him gone. We didn’t want his big fat ass around. And the government that— said that they uh— it’s lucky they weren’t handling him. (Pause) Anybody got any an— questions to ask these assholes that’ve taken all of our workforce today, spread out, got the Gu— Guyana Defense Force alerted, the Coast Guard alerted, the Border Patrol alerted, the prime minister’s secret police awar— alerted. Anybody have any— A minister of agriculture alerted. And the deputy prime minister [Ptolemy Reid] alerted. And the commissioner of police [C.A. "Skip" Roberts] alerted. And the Kaituma police alerted. And the Matthews Ridge police aler— alerted. And the GNS [Guyana National Service] alerted. (Pause)

Marceline (? — or counselor…): We all wanted you picked up.

Jones: Well, picked up, and it was a l— a law that you had to be returned here.

Marceline: That’s right.

Jones: Anybody that violated it would be in trouble with the federal government. (Pause) Anybody got any questions for these characters? Stand up and look at your— your fellow comrades. (unintelligible word), and let them look at the— their fellow comrades. Yes.

(Voice too soft)

Congregation: Stirs.

Woman’s voice: (far away) You white idiots. Both of you, look at each other. (unintelligible phrase) idiot. You sure do a lot for the rest of us, and would like to be (unintelligible word; sounds like "slapped"). (Angry) You shameful bastards. Goddamn white fascist bigots. (Unintelligible)

(tape edit)

Jones: (unintelligible) —nine tails. (Pause) You know that. Did you tell him that? If you [had been] picked up by jai— and jailed, speaking against this country, speaking against black, speaking against socialism, (unintelligible word), did you bother to tell him about the cat o’nine tails?

Young man in trouble: No, father.

Jones: Why didn’t you tell him about the cat o’nine tails?

(Voice too soft)

Jones: You weren’t thinking of it?

Young man in trouble: No, father.

Jones: To speak subversion against this country, to leave parent and home, to violate law and be out after curfew, you’d be eligible for their— 39 stripes, with a cat o’nine tails.

Male 3: This fuckin— You shoulda heard what he talked about when he got brought in. Talk about (unintelligible word as mike moves) son of a bitch. (unintelligible sentence)

Jones: Yes, he had a good design in watching him. (Pause) We have made a— a— a vow. We have met too many pigs. We’ve met too many snakes. No, there’s nothing in the human book— in the an— animal vocabulary that describes humans. We’ve met too many capitalists, mangy capitalists. Vomitous capitalists. We’ve met too many of them and their past shenanigans— You are not going home to that fascist Babylon, until our people are here.

Scattered: That’s right.

Jones: And then we’ll be glad to be rid of the likes of both of you.

Congregation: Cheers and applause

(Tape edit)

Jones: You want to tell us how this plan got concocted? ‘Course, you might as well know, we have already a great deal of information. You want to tell us how it got concocted, and what your plans were, and exactly uh, who laid the plan, and who uh, encouraged the per— the person to begin it?

Young man in trouble: Father, um, we talked about it um, on the front porch in— in the back there in the kitchen. Back there. That’s how we got together, is just—

Unknown voice: When?

Young man in trouble: The day after I got brought up. (Pause)

Voice too soft

Jones: And brother, you need to be standing up here, because you allowed this to happen, by putting him in charge of somebody else. You ought to stand up here and assume responsibility for letting these— the— this character— You ought to have known better than to put them together. (Pause) God, how this could have ended. Five or six days after you— we’d drag you out of a jungle, how this could have ended. ‘Cause you’da finally had to go to the jungle, ‘cause every government— you’d been— been evident, when they were (unintelligible word) to pick you up. How do you suppose we knew where you were? You passed two government people. They informed us. All the natives informed us. And we know have high-powered CBC units, that evidently you’ve not al— alert to— to be aware of, that travel miles.

One voice: Right.

Jones: I don’t uh— I don’t really know what’s come off with you idiots, that you couldn’t have more sense than this. Just how did you expect to get out of this country, you say? You wan— on the river?

Young man in trouble: I kinda went down to the Barima River and lived down there.

Jones: And what were you going to do when you got to Barima River?

Young man in trouble: Stay down there, and fish, and live off the land right there.

Jones: Live off the land down there.

Young man in trouble: Yes, Father.

Jones: In capitalist Venezuela. (Pause) This socialist country will bring in an Air Force plane, and give us free service, when somebody’s in need, like our brother was paralyzed, until I healed him, we couldn’t cancel it, it was uh, too late, uh, when Brother Wi— uh, Williams was healed, and the same with Brother [Cleave] Swinney, he was paralyzed of a stroke, and Brother [Walter] Williams was paralyzed from an ey— industrial accident, the boom hitting him. But they come in here free and pick them out, take them out, back to the hospitals. (Pause) In capitalist uh, Venezuela— ‘cause the revolution’s not complete there. If they found you there, you’d be held uh, you’d be held until you could pay your way back. They’d hold you in a jail. There’s no floor, it’s something like Devil’s Island. The jails here are humane, because since the revolution, they’ve made them humane for youth, but uh, there’s still the cat o’nine tails. And I think they must know what they’re doing, because they’re socialist, and they still choose to use a cat o’nine tails. So I guess we’ll have to get us a cat o’nine tails to be in conformity with the law. And believe me, if you get whipped 39 times with a cat o’nine tails, you will be carried out.

Congregation: Stirs.

Jones: This is goddamn proof, that Mao [Chinese leader Mao Tse-Tung] knew what he was talking [about], that’s there’s only one way to change people.

Woman in Congregation: That’s right.

Jones: It’s out of the barrel of a gun.

Congregation: Right.

Jones: Okay, now what were you going to do when you got down there? You were going live off the fish in— in p— in pertuity? Immortally? Eternally? You were going to live off of fish there in Venezuela.

Young man in trouble: Yes, Father, and see if we could find a job there or something. (Unintelligible trailing off)

Congregation: Stirs

Jones: Find a job there. Why, if you’ve got a job here, you’ve got medi— free medical care, you’ve got a— free housing, and if you uh, qualify, free education, and we could send you any— to the Soviet Union, to any— ‘Course, you’re a— you’re a capitalist. You talk openly about this. You want to get to a capitalist country— You, too?

Young man in trouble: No, Father. My plans weren’t to go to Venezuela. My plans were to go as far as the [Matthews] Ridge or something like that, and then live around there.

Jones: Why— Guyana— Don’t you know that this government— I’m a personal friend of the leader of the party, of the Marxist-Leninist party? I’m a personal friend of his? I’ve done missions for him? You idiotic fools. You all better be listening. Don’t you know that he wouldn’t allow that? You’da been picked up and brought to— here, and if you didn’t come here, you’da go— had to go to jail? (Pause) How do you suppose I been able to survive, with all the conspiracy and fascist pigs that’ve been on our backs. The government’s with us. The only people that are venturing in here are coming in from Venezuela. Conspirators, that are s— paid assassins. Or kidnappers. But Jesus Christ, this government’s with us. I’m a friend of the minister of immigration, I’m a— we— we were able to l— lay every prob— we had a few problems from the conspiracy with Customs, and all it took was one phone lifted up, and now everybody sails through like there was— they were (stumbles over words) kings and queens of state. We had to have a strong government behind us, because they were determined to hound us all the way over here.

Congregation: Stirs

Jones: I have a strong commitment from this government. They’ve told us— The foreign minister [Fred Wills]— I told all of you, you idiots, if you were listening, that if they came, they’d have to come over his dead body to get me?

Congregation: Stirs

Jones: How many heard me make that statement?

Congregation: Stirs

Jones: Then how did you presume you were going to live in Matthews Ridge?

Young man in trouble: I just did. I just thought I could.

Jones: (Disgusted whisper) Ah, shit. (Normal tone) It’d been good if you’d lived out there for a month, without the shelter of the most socialistic cooperative. This government calls this their best cooperative in the world. ‘Cause you have all the shelter, and all the protection. It’d been good if you’da been out there thirty days. If the government didn’t arrest you, it’d be too— uh, too bad. (Pause) ‘Course, all of us have been concerned about your asses, whether you were w— dying slowly from some disease, some tropical disease deep in the jungles, or had been eaten partly by a tiger or a par— or a— a— or rather, a leopard or a, a puma, or whatever the hell you might be suffering out there. Vegetation. Just doing (slurs over words) the ordinary exposure. You don’t evidently know the jungle. You better not try to make kindred with the jungle without a guide that’s got an intuition to get you through it, like I have. [I] Wouldn’t have dreamed, going into this jungle, if I hadn’t have proved my own intuition. I took a— the first party of settlers here, and led them around, right back to the dining room, where we were at, in the thicket of a jungle. But you don’t have that kind of sys— a system to lead you in a jungle. You wouldn’t have wanted to be there all night. (Pause) I don’t know what this bird knows. You were going to Matthews Ridge, and he was going to Venezuela, huh? You were going to eat fish? Who said this business about eating fish?

Young man in trouble: I did, Father.

Jones: So how were you going to Matthews Ridge? That’s not the way to the river. (Pause) Your stories don’t jell.

Young man in trouble: I— I didn’t— On the way there ah, tonight, (unintelligible phrase) by the Baramba River and then catch fish there, and then eat them in the morning, then we’d go— go on and head towards (unintelligible word; sounds like "Arakok")) and go on up to the Ridge.

Jones: Oh, God, the great adventurers. (Pause) Who was going to provide your medical care, who was going to provide your food? There’s unemployment here. We’re the only cooperative that’ve got total employment, because the fascists have tried to destroy this country by destabilization, by raising high tariff barriers to their exports. And so there’s no free trade. And we’re the only ones that’s got full employment and full medical care, because this country barely holds together. It wouldn’t hold together, if it hadn’t been for us. When the CIA tried to overthrow us, Russia told them that they were watching us. And that caused the CIA to lay off of our ass, and the government’s too. In a sense, we saved the good leadership of this government.

Congregation: Stirs

Jones: Because of our prior associations with the Soviet Union. We’ve had strong and friend[ly] uh, ties, uh, warm, warm bonds of eternal friendship between us and the mother of the socialist revolution. She— Her missile might— when she gave a public notice to this foreign minister’s government, he was telling— he was proud that it came. The foreign minister told us, and you can check with all the parties in— that were there. Paula [Adams], and Debbie [Touchette], I don’t know who all the parties were that were in the foreign minister’s office, that the Soviet Union gave them notice that anything gave the go— acting government at the time, when the good leaders were out of the country, it was about overthrown. Some of you don’t know the nightmare of what we went through to fight for this country, and save this land. You know. You know.

Congregation: Stirs

Jones: And the Soviet Union was so brave, that they would even risk a nuclear confrontation, by saying, "Hands off of Peoples Temple." When the good leaders were out, and they were trying to kill us off here, they said, "Hands off, because the Soviet Union is watching what happens to Jones and his people. They’re our friends, and we want nothing to go wrong with them."

Congregation: Stirs

Jones: That’s what the Soviet Union said. I’m talking about the great Soviet Union. That’s tremendous, that a country would risk nuclear war— that’s what it— that kind of a statement would risk. (Pause) You’re abominable. You think the country’s going to let you move freely here, when they need us, 700 people and an economy here, producing, providing them with new careers, medicine, every associated career of the academics and technical skills, do you think they’re going to let you do what you want, over and above our wishes of 700, nearly 800 strong? Who do you think they’re going to listen to? And what do you think we’re going to do? Let people walk out of here and go to Matthews Ridge to live their— their nefarious life? You produce what kind of life you could do. You— First thing you did, when you took your liberty and sold our things, you— you made liquor that woulda killed anybody. You both engaged in drugs. You think we’re going to allow that kind of thing to be under our— our nose? We only know what anarchists will do when they’re under our nose.

Congregation: Right.

Jones: And it’s obviously our nose wasn’t tight enough. But it’ll be tight tonight.

Congregation: Right

Jones: Your ass is going to be tight in a bind tonight.

Congregation: Stirs

Jones: What you put us through, and you— What— what kind of story was you going to tell? What was going to be your story about this place? Now tell me it— the truth for a change. We know the whole song and dance. Everybody goes out, prepared to lie. (Pause)

Young man in trouble: Father, if we wouldn’t—

Jones: If you’d had a listening ear. Nobody’d listen to you.

Young man in trouble: If somebody asked me what I was— you know, I was just—

Jones: What kind of story did you tell? You met some people.

Young man in trouble: One lady asked me uh, where was I from. I told her I was from Port Kaituma, and that— She was, "Oh," and then that’s it. We went on.

Jones: Umm-hmm. What were you going to say, friend?

Young man in trouble: If anyone asked (unintelligible phrase) I was going to say that, I chose to uh, go on my own and that no one— (Pause) No one— I chose to go on my own and that I was given the choice and so I took it. That’s what I was going to say if anyone asked me.

Jones: (Short laugh) Do you believe this?

Congregation: No.

Jones: Do you buy this?

Congregation: Stirs

One woman voice: Tell him— (unintelligible word) Tell him what you were going to tell them about our leader. That’s what I want to know.

Congregation: Murmurs of assent

Jones: Here. Do you know this? Do you know— you remember this? You ought to know this. One of our workers that was attacked by the, uh— the big cat, and lost his eye? And deep, cutting scratches into his chest and back? Left permanently impaired and crippled? (Pause) A cat in the jungle. Well, I would think that stories like this better get around. (Pause) There’s nothing to fear in this environment, because we have a protective aura. Nothing comes in here. No snakes to bother us. We’ve never been poisoned. Never been— not one that’s ever bit us. ‘Cause you know about all those poisonous snakes. Snake that travels the— the speed of a car. What is it?

Young man in trouble: It’s laboria [phonetic].

Jones: Yeah. And how many times can it bite you before you even know you’re being bit?

Young man in trouble: Three to seven times.

Jones: (Pause) Didn’t you think that was highly significant, (unintelligible word) out there along the edges of the road where you had to go back in and out of the— in the woods. You can’t afford to go any distance at all. There’s swamps on both sides of this road, uh, going to Matthews Ridge, and certainly you can’t get any further than the port. (Pause) Didn’t you think you owed it to him to tell him a little bit of the risk? He doesn’t know shit from apple butter. (Pause) You’ve lived here. You’ve lived here a long while. (Pause) You didn’t think you’d meet a laboria. Did you think Father’s going to protect you when you’re out there against everything in his will?

Young man in trouble: No, Father.

Jones: You people are outrageous.

Marceline: That’s what happens when you trust capitalists. You— What kind of communist are you, that you go with him and you trust him—

Jones: There are no camaraderie. There’s no camaraderie. There’s no al— Only in an alliance, both to do their own thing, one going to live in Matthews Ridge, and I don’t know what the other one was going to do. What were you going to do? Call your mother?

Young man in trouble: No, Father, I knew I couldn’t go back, so I was just going to uh, live down by the river.

Jones: Hmm. No, you couldn’t. Your mother said, if we found you and sent to— we sent you back, probation. Ten you— Send you— Turn you over to probation. That means you go to jail, with your record.

Male 4: (in crowd) (unintelligible intro) —very lucky that you didn’t get on (unintelligible word), because he would do you in at the first thing that caused him some problems.

Congregation: Stirs

Jones: (mike clicks on) —believe this place. You think you’re going to find a good life out there? You think you’re going to be able to make enough to live on? What— When you got— When you got malaria outside of here— People have got malaria, everyone except in this place. When you got malaria, and your temperature runs up to a hundred and five, and if you don’t have some way of controlling it, it goes a hundred and six, and your brain is damaged. And you go blind. What the hell were you going to do then?

Young man in trouble: I was— Like I was just thinking about, like— When I first came out, I wonder what it was like to survive out of the bush, and—

Congregation: Stirs

Jones: What do you think? Should we fence off a part of the bush tonight, and let him see how it is to survive out there?

Congregation: Yeah.

Jones: Don’t give us no bullshit. We’ve been— You— You have cost us— You cost us land. You cost us several thousand dollars today. (Pause) In phone calls back to the States, about what we’d do if your mother come— get in, all these people have to be notified. She don’t want shit to do with you, man. (Pause) No relative gonna take you back there, man. They won’t take your responsibility. You’d just been picked up if you’da got there. (Long pause) Anybody else got something to say to these two? I don’t know how to— Psychologist to talk to. You had a psychologist, a beautiful woman, to talk to, like a mother to you, and then what the hell you did, just tromp it in the ground. Don’t you think it’s a bit parasitical to live in a socialist country, when you didn’t like socialism, and you’re going to live up here on your own? This is a socialist country, committed to having all of their people live on cooperatives like ours. Only you don’t get the benefits that we do. Closed-circuit TV, and a movie. (Pause) ‘Cause they haven’t got that kind of benefits yet to offer, ‘cause they’re trying to save their nation. (Stumbles over words) Don’t you think it’s a bit disgustingly hypocrite, to want to live in a socialist country, when you are pledged to capitalism, like you’ve made— your open statements.

Edith Bogue: He’s willing to live under fascism.

Jones: What is it?

Edith: He’s willing to live under fascism.

Jones: He is?

Edith: That’s what he said.

Jones: Well, now— There’s nothing private (unintelligible word) your kids’ counsel. It’s all obliterated. (Stumbles over words) Your uh, your privileged uh, relationship with your counselor no longer exists in this room. She’s ordered by the good of the collective— She’s ordered by the good of the collective to tell everything you’ve said.

Edith: I have no commitment to you, Brian [Davis] (unintelligible). I want you to know that Father has— Father has been very good to you, and I don’t— I don’t have any commitment to you. ‘Cause you’ve already told me that you’re not interested, you’re not interested in this cause, you don’t care, you’re willing to go back to fascism, and if they torture people, well, you may watch, you may not watch, you may get involved, you may not get involved, you’re totally unconcerned. You just wanted uh, what— just want to live to do your own thing. That’s what you said. Right? So don’t (unintelligible word under interruption) humble here.

Jones: Shift, please. You may get involved, and you may not get involved. (Pause)

Edith: So don’t act humble right now, ‘cause you don’t mean it. Your— Your hus— humble look—

(tape edit)

Jones: —is better come up with some honesty tonight, ‘cause you’re going to get a lesson that nobody has ever had yet.

Congregation: Stirs.

Jones: And how much of a lesson depends upon how honest you can get. No bullshit games with us. Yes, sister.

Woman: I don’t know where you think you’re going.

(Voice too soft)

(tape edit)

Jones: (unintelligible intro) —it’s gonna all be blown up. (Pause) You saw it. You surely both saw that movie, OneNo Blade of Grass. Both of you saw that. How did you relate to that? Didn’t that seem very much at home with white Americans?

Young man in trouble: Yes, Father.

Jones: Don’t you think that’s going to happen?

Young man in trouble: Yes. Yes, Father.

Jones: What?

Young man in trouble: Yes, Father.

Jones: I’m— I’m puzzled about why you could think you could be at more protection, more love, more support, out there, trying to live alone. You haven’t got a doctor out there. We have the only doctor in the Northwest District. Absolutely only one.

Male 5: (mike clicks on) —police come in here to get treated by the damn doctor, what do you— why do you think they do that, they got a doctor in Port Kaituma or in Matthews Ridge. Why the fuck do you think they come to us?

Jones: Their doctors were all killed by the capitalist system that you don’t mind, that you don’t mind whether you wish to help them torture, or whether you stand by and watch. The Yankee imperialist blew all their young doctors, who were worthy to live, and you two don’t even have the right to live, with the kinds of parasites that you are. They were all blown up, along with 60 other Cuban fine students, were blown up by our fascist CIA.

Congregation: Right.

Jones: October last.

Woman 2: But you really see no Blade of Grass. You didn’t see it all the way through.

Jones: That’s why they have no doctor but our doctor. The young— young woman that was to be posted up here, a young Indian, and a young black that was supposed to be at Marabaruma, both blown to sm— pieces (speaks through gritted teeth) by the capitalists that you have no contempt for. The capitalist, that you would even participate with in their tortures. The capitalist, which you’ll take the prerogative, you filth, you vile filth. (Spits numerous times)

Congregation: Applause, scattered cheers

Jones: (disgusted cry) You’re vile. You’re evil. You’re insidious. You’re low.

Congregation: Applause, cheers

Woman 2: And I want to say—

Jones: And you— you would go back there and watch them, you say, torture— or you didn’t know whether you would participate or not, as I understand.

Young man in trouble: Well, I didn’t say that, Father.

Edith: Well, explain what you said. You didn’t say any different, did you, would— that you would object to it. I’m disgusted that I had— I thought it was of some use, to hear you have a dialogue with you, but you were— There was no use to it at all, because I don’t see— didn’t notice any indication that you cared. You tell me when you said you cared.

Jones: And she was honest enough to admit it. Manipulated her mother’s mercy, who felt very keenly and motherly for you. And I gave you that outlet. You manipulated my mercy. I gave you an outlet to talk in which I would not even break the seal of your privilege—

Edith: That’s right.

Jones: —nor invade your privacy. (Pause) But you— If this is not contemptible, I don’t know what contemptible is. (Pause)

Woman in Congregation: (voice too soft) —we will find out whether you would care about other people or not.

(tape edit?)

Jones: Blooms was mild compared to some of the— the thorns and things that they shoved up, and they cut up their intestines, or cut up and they bled slowly to death, and babies thrown out of seventeenth floor windows, while the mothers watch.

Woman in Congregation: (voice too soft)

(sounds of slapping?)

Jones: Enough —nough. Enough, sister. (Pause) That’s a mother’s heartbreak. You don’t give a goddamn about anybody. You stomped over her goodwill and intention. And she’s s— striking out because justice and reason did not prevail. You have only one language you understood. (Pause) It’s masochistic. And I’ll bet with your masochism, there must be a lot of sadism. When you wouldn’t accept such love as that, and want to go out, and I— not— not knowing— not telling us anything, not discussing anything with us, come up against the might of 800 people. (Pause) You didn’t know what our logic was. (Pause) There’s no— There’s no possible way we can tolerate anarchy. No possible way that we can tolerate people going out and living on their own. The government won’t do— won’t tolerate us tolerating it, if we chose. That was one of the commitments I made to my good friend, the head of the government party, Dr. Reid, that, "None of your people must go out alone, and live alone. They must live in your cooperative, and work together for socialism on your cooperative, and not take from the job market. That is a commitment, ‘cause I know you will be responsible to let nothing happen that will embarrass our country in a terrible relationship with the Yankee horde up— up north, and will not do anything to allow our people to be embarrassed by misconduct. So the moment that they leave your community, you must then let us know, so we can throw them out, or in jail." (Pause) The only American group that’s out here, trying to do what you did, over here, they threw them all out. Picked them up one day and just throwed them all out.

Congregation: (Scattered) Right.

Edith: What country—

Jones: You know that. Making their liquor. Smoking just a little marijuana. Out they went, ‘cause this is a socialist country, trying to build a new woman and a new man.

Edith: No country would put up with you, ‘cause you’ve been in trouble in the United States. No country would put up with you—

(tape edit)

Male 6: —straight in jail. You were in jail before that phone call came to your house, and your fuckin’ ass woulda been fucked, you’da been beat, and every goddamn thing else. It pisses my fuckin’ ass off, wish I could beat the fuck out of your fuckin’ face. Well, you too. You fuckers stand up here, and you don’t even listen.

Jones: We gave you a home when you had to go to jail. And you, young and frail, and redheaded, you’d be different. There’d been about 17 raped you the first night, you’d been put there—

Voices in crowd too soft.

Woman 3: He thinks he’s going to get by—

Jones: Thirty-five got raped. Well, I know one chap, 35, they left the church, used to be an organist. Thirty-five raped him, along with the officer. Till his bowels were hanging out— down his— down— almost to his leg, to the— to his knee. The shank. (Pause) How do you think you’re going to get by with this shit. Everybody’s been in jail, tells you what they have to do. They had to stand in corners with their ass to the wall — the big men, like Chris Lewis — and finally had to yield to some kind of sexual relationship, whether they wanted it or not. You had to form a sexual alliance in order to survive. In any prison or jail, you have to form a group sexual alliance with men, whether you want it or not.

Woman 3: They think they’re white, and they’re going to get by, that’s what you think, and that’s ignorant.

Jones: Well, that’s white or black. The whole goddamn prison system.

Woman 3: Right.

Jones: Said the— if the sisters came through— this last group that came through, they brought me newspapers that showed the headlines of prison crowded one hundred times more than they’re supposed to be equipped to take care of. (Pause) Packed in like mackerel. In United States. Single little units, no bigger than from me to your feet. And they got three people in the goddamn things. And no pla— no space for them to go out. Sometimes they only get out one day a week to look at the sun. (Pause) I mean, not all day. Just a fuckin’ hour. (Pause) And that’s in the— some of the best prisons in New York and on the East Coast. It’s getting that bad in— in California. Only for the one special colony for Nixon criminals [reference to Watergate scandal and cover-up, which resulted in 1974 resignation of U.S. President Richard Nixon]. (Pause) I don’t know. I’m a gentle person. I don’t know how to deal with you miserable fuckers. (Pause)

Male 7: They stole half the kitchen, uh, we searched their bags, they got cups—

Jones: Well, I know that. What’d they steal?

Male 7: Cups and flashlights and things like that. And boxes of matches. And— and um, when we caught ‘em, this uh, sombitch right here tried to rist— resist us with the cutlass.

Congregation: Stirs

(Voices in crowd too soft)

Unknown male: Don’t lie. Don’t lie.

Male 8: —because we told you Steve had the gun on you.

(Voices in crowd too soft)

Jones: (Stumbles over words) I can— I can take perfect liberty tonight. Do you want the cutlass with somebody here?

(Voices in crowd too soft)

Jones: Would you like to take the cutlass? Would you like to take cutlass? The government will not hold you— hold us a bit responsible. (Pause) Give us a reason why not.

Young man in trouble: (unintelligible intro) I— I wouldn’t— I know I wouldn’t be able to do anything with it, Father.

Jones: Well, why’d you take the cutlass to a black brother, then?

Young man in trouble: No, Father, what— what happened, I was standing there, and— and they came, and they said, "Give me your cutlass," and then they went around and snatched it out of my hand. Like that.

Male 8: I didn’t—

(Voices in crowd too soft)

Male 9: You’re a goddam liar.

Male 10: I grabbed you right here.

Jones: Let’s hear what they— Is that the way it happened? Let’s see if somebody gonna tell the truth tonight.

Young man in trouble: No— No, Father, what happened was, they came up and they said, "Give me your cutlasses," and then Brian just stood there with his, and then, instead of just handing it over quickly, he’d just stood there with it in his hand. And someone had to walk around and take it from him.

Jones: Well— (Pause) That’s not the same truth.

(Voices in crowd too soft)

Congregation: Reacts

Jones: No, uh— All the government wants us to do is just take care of it privately. They did right. They’re not supposed to do anything out on the streets.

Woman 4: (too soft opening) —marke sure you guys got back in before dark. Half the people been looking for you all day— all day long. We wasted some much fuckin’ time out in the fields looking for your asses. (Pause) And we got tired of lookin’ for your stupid— I (unintelligible word) fuck you woulda stayed out, got (unintelligible word) shit.

(Voices in crowd too soft)

Woman 5: We didn’t want to look for you at all. We woulda left you.

(Voices in crowd too soft)

Woman 6: Stop looking (unintelligible word), goddammit.

Edith: Not a— Neither one of you deserve any pity, and if anybody gets to use the cutlass, I want to be allowed to use the cutlass on both of you. ‘Cause I’ll cut both of your heads off, ‘cause I think you both deserve it. I think both of you deserve to be stood up against a wall and shot. Steve and I apologized to you last time for saying that I thought maybe you be able to (unintelligible word). I should be able to. I’m the one that brought you into the world. I am responsible for your being here. I feel I should be allowed to shoot you tonight, and if nothing else, kill myself, to keep the church from getting in trouble. That’s what I think should happen to you. And I think the same thing should happen to you, Brian. I can’t tell either of you how much I despise both of you for what you’ve done for Father and this cause. And to think that you would raise a— you would threaten a black brother. I am ashamed of both of you, and I think both of you should be shot now. And I think I should be allowed to do it.

Jones: How many vote for the— for— vote for her proposal?

Congregation: Stirs.

Jones: How many are opposed to it?

Congregation: Stirs.

Jones: How many are opposed?

Congregation: Stirs.

Jones: (tape edit, words on either side unintelligible) I think they’re sociopathic, and they will not leave them— yield themselves to redemption. There is no way to deal with this chat— this chap. I know one chap here by experience. He’s without any moral compunction. He’s stolen from us, he’s done violent things before, he’s violated our laws over and over again, he has no moral compunction. He’s given job and opportunity after opportunity, and he fucks over everything you give him.

Congregation: Stirs.

Jones: Brian admits he cares about no other human being.

Woman 8: (unintelligible) —or any animal or anything. He has no concern.

Jones: I can assure you gentlemen, we are not going to trust your word about whether you’re going to travel any more or not.

Congregation: (Scattered) Right.

Jones: I can assure you, (speaks through gritted teeth) you will not the chance to meet on a night and agree to commit conspiracy against this movement. I can assure you, you won’t walk one goddamn inch. I can assure you of that.

Congregation: Reacts

(tape edit)

Jones: Hmm.

(tape edit)

Jones: —personal secretary said to my wife today, when she was talking to her, "Well, why didn’t you give them a good beating, instead of talking to them and shaving their heads?" That’s his executive personal secretary. (Pause) Well, I want to hear you— you— you said— um, Mr. Taylor— uh, Tucker, you opposed shooting because of what?

Male 11: Come up front. Go up front.

Congregation: Stirs

(tape edit)

Jones: Anybody else that’s opposed, give us some good reason.

(tape edit)

Male 12: I uh— The reason why I say I oppose— and I don’t think his mother shoulda did it, we should allow someone else to do it, (unintelligible word) create that hardship upon her.

Jones: Roger. I agree. (Pause ) I agree with that. I agree with that.

Mother: I— And I don’t agree with it, it’s because if I— I feel like I should be allowed to do it, and then kill myself. The church wouldn’t get in any trouble. It would be a killing and a suicide by an— by an upset mother that doesn’t like what her son’s doing. I’ve thought about it— (unintelligible phrase under interruption)

Jones: That’s very honorable, but uh, we wouldn’t dream of sacrificing you for this vermin.

(Voices over each other)

Male 13: No one. Ain’t nobody going to know. (unintelligible) to the bush and kill your fucking (unintelligible)

Young woman: Father, (pause) I don’t—

(voices over each other)

Woman in congregation: We can just say you ran—

(tape edit)

Young man in trouble: (unintelligible sentence)

Jones: Well, I’m sorry that you didn’t know this.

Woman in congregation: Father, he had to know about it, ‘cause I heard about this story when I first came here, and I came here after you did.

Male 14: (unintelligible)

Woman in Congregation: ‘Cause they told me about that story when I got here.

Male 14: (unintelligible) —about one of those guys that got killed in Kaituma. When he first came here, we told Tommy [Bogue] and all of them that lived in the dorm with us, of a guy that got killed, and it took about— it took a month for them to find the tiger, and they— and they finally killed it up by the school in Kaituma. And it killed a man.

Jones: Is it— Is that correct, sir?

Young man in trouble: Yes, Father.

Jones: They told you about the man-eating tiger.

Woman 9: And you lied to Father, right?

Young man in trouble: Yes, I did. What Anthony—

Woman 10: You told me, when you was out there by the— where they made charcoal back there, you told me about what was back there, about the lies and shit and what was back there. And then— if— you know, I was thinking of going back there, Father, you told me what the fuck was back there.

Jones: If he told you lions, there are no lions. Leopards, tigers, pumas, ocelots, black panther. (Pause)

Woman 11: We left the States to get away from assholes like you, so there’s no reason in the world why we shouldn’t kill you. Why should we (unintelligible word) bring you over here, and then make us suffer when you (unintelligible phrase) people can’t work in the fields from chasing after your asses, and no— (last phrase unintelligible under interruption)

Jones: No— uh, uh, that’s right. Nobody going to chase after your ass anymore, I can assure you.

Congregation: (Scattered) Right.

(Voices compete)

Edith: Why do you think you deserve to live— Why do you think you deserve to live when neither of you want to— want to serve anybody or care about anybody. Why do you think you deserve to live? To just do your own thing? You say, why you think you deserve to live.

Young man in trouble: I don’t really deserve to live.

Woman 12: That’s right. You don’t.

Young man in trouble: I don’t— I don’t think I deserve to live either.

(voices compete)

(tape edit)

Male 15: (unintelligible intro) —negligence, I apologize to— to you, Father, and the rest of the people for letting ‘em cause you so much pain. And for that, I— For one of my disciplines, I would like for Sharon [Amos] to come up and slap me, because I put her through that pain. And for another thing, I would like to get the running discipline that he— that Tommy had, and uh, for— for trusting Brian, because he was one of the harder workers. He— he— he fooled me, because he was the one of the hardest workers out there, so I put him in charge. So I would like, you know, for— for putting Sharon through that pain and for all the rest of the people, I would like to be slapped for [by] her, and have the running discipline wherever I go during working hours. And I—

Jones: Your conscience speaks keenly. We— You’ve made an error of love, like— and trust, ex— exactly like she did and exactly like I did. So you won’t be punished for it. (Pause) Enough, enough. Enough, enough.

(voices too soft)

Jones: He’s a— You— You brought that on yourself. Now I don’t know (slurs over words)

(voices too soft)

End of tape

Tape originally posted September 2003

Last modified on January 16th, 2015.
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