Q974 Transcript

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.

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Man: (sings) I’m so glad that I found Jim Jones in time.
I’m so glad I found Jim Jones in time.
I’m so glad that I found Jim Jones in time.
Oh my God, oh my God, what shall I do?
I’m so glad trouble don’t last always.
I’m so glad trouble don’t last always.
I’m so glad trouble don’t last always.
Oh my God, oh my God, what shall I do?

(Cries out) One more—

(Sings)
I’m so glad that trouble don’t last always.
I’m so glad trouble don’t last always.
I’m so glad trouble don’t last always.
Oh my (voice fades) (tape edit)

Congregation: Applause.

Man: (Calls out) Amen. Amen. (Pause) Because of your prayers, your kind wishes and thoughts, my young son who had both legs broken is walking again.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Man: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. (Pause) On April 12— On April 12, when this horrible thing happened, I was told, don’t worry. Don’t worry. And I know that I speak with great authority when I say that trouble won’t last always. (Pause) I think the last time I was here we were talking about how this, as a result of federal action, we had been denied 4000 jobs for the young people of this city. We made special appeals to businesses, to churches, to other organizations, to at least come up with uh, as much as they possibly could afford, to provide job opportunities, for young people who were willing to work, who didn’t want to face the hellishness of poverty another season. The very first establishment to come through with flying colors was the Peoples Temple, led by my Jim Jones.

Congregation: Sustained cheers and applause.

Man: And it wasn’t long— And it wasn’t long— And it wasn’t long after that, it wasn’t long after that, that we received the intelligence that the evilness in the heart of those administrators on a federal level had been softened, and we got our 4000 jobs, a great many of those administered by our own brother John Brown.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Man: Uh-huh. (Pause) One of the great reasons— One of the many reasons that I enjoy the dynamic ministry of Pastor Jim Jones is because of the truth, because of the eloquence, because of the realist— realist approach to the things that we need. He often talks about fascism. Now “fascism” is a word that most people just think is something bad. But the definition of fascism, friends, is rule by the most reactionary segment of organized financed capital — this is what it means — where they absolute complete reign, police department, everything like that, but they don’t have their own way. They don’t have their own way, and from the crevasse that they least expected, out jumps the Watergate, and exposes them for their evildoing, where— (Pause) but Christian friends, let me tell you something. Don’t be deceived. As far as I’m concerned, this Watergate business could very easily be a circus. It could be a— easy circus, and it is like a man being accused of murder, rape and robbery, the most heinous of all human crimes, being tried for a traffic ticket. You see?

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Man: I’d like to speak, if you would bear with me, about the allies of fascism. The allies. Who are those— Who are we that help (unintelligible word) to make it possible for the enemies of all decency and dignity to go their merry way. I say, friends, those of us who would stoop to violence against his neighbor on a racial basis, whether he knows it or not, he’s contributing to this, and he’s an ally of fascism.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Man: I’d say those of us (Pause) who happen to live in a spanking brand new housing project or something like that, and will sit idly by with a transistor radio playing while we’re sitting in litter up to our ankles, and watch— (coughs) Some water please— And watch young children destroy property before the paint is dry on it, these are contributors. These people are helping fascism. (Coughs)

Congregation: Scattered applause

Man: (Aside) I— I shouldn’t have eaten that cake. (Laughs) (Clears throat, back to congregation) The hospitality’s so good, they were feeding me c— cake downstairs. And see, all the crumbs got into me. But I’ll be all right. (Clears throat) You see, we have people who are so frustrated, they’ll get on to the Muni bus, and slash the seats up. (Pause) These are contributing, because people will choose tyranny over anarchy. You see, the evil element will see a young black kid, who’s throwing rocks out of a window, who’ll walk and dump a garbage can over, and they’ll say these are hoodlums and they should be put in a special place. And people will choose tyranny over anarchy, when they are afraid, if they don’t know the difference. And I’m suggesting to you that you must let your light shine. (Cries out) You must continue to do the thing you’re doing. You follow the brave and dignified leadership of a man like Jim Jones, and we can walk down life’s path, with the dignity of a first class citizen, where our character, not our color, is applied to earn our respectability. And are you afraid of making a few enemies? Don’t ever be afraid of making enemies. (Pause) It’s a matter of what’s right, not who’s right.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Man: (Ministerial cadence) People talk about freedom. The greatest pleasure is not in some kind of crazy freedom, the greatest pleasure is in obedience. You’ve got to have something you respect. You’ve got to have something that you love. You’ve got to have leadership that you can follow.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Man: (Moderates tone) If the question is asked, will the racist succeed? Will the fascist-minded people succeed? I say they will not, because God has placed an obstacle in the path of such an adventure.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Man: If every— Quoting the words of the immortal Frederick Douglass, “If every pencil, paper, periodical and pamphlet were burned, and their ashes given to the four winds of the heaven, there would still be no peace for the racist. By the wind, the breeze that soothes and the thunder that startles, he would be awakened. Thou art guilty.” And I’m saying to you, Christian friends, every single day, we’re seeing how these people in their ivory towers, questioning our patriotism, if you please, questioning our patriotism, and they would sell grain, they’d sell lumber, they’d do anything to the highest bidder. You see, there’s such a thing as balance. They’re calling the Russians all of the names in the world, but it was our people— see, the Russians are off— operating off of the order, to some extent, of the Jim Jones thing. They had one group negotiating for the Soviet Union, but they were negotiating with private, little, greedy people who were outbidding each other. And so they sold too cheaply, and now they must make the American people make up their losses. This is the way that happens, this is why we’re having the problems, to make up for the losses of some greedy, little, money-hungry men. (Pause) And I’m saying to you, Christian friends, you can’t afford the luxury of ignorance, because ignorance is an ally of fascism.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Man: I salute— I salute Jim Jones for the beautiful work he’s doing, especially with the students. He’s not suggesting— You see, because there is no generation gap. You’re helping the young, and you’re helping the old, helping people to have a survival kit in this cruel and vicious jungle in which we live. (Calls out) But because of the things that you’re doing, I’m so glad that trouble won’t last always. (Clears throat)

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Man: Today, Christian friends, you see— You hear a lot of talk about black English. (Pause) Black English, if you please. I didn’t hear about black Spanish, black Japanese. They don’t say that the people from the Appalachians uh, speak only white English. People speak differently in New York, Boston, New Orleans or California. (Pause) It has nothing to do with color. But if you go for this nonsense about black English, they would take the idiotic utterings of people who’ve been cursed by the hellishnuf— hellishness of poverty, and call that black. Then they’re lowering standards instead of lowering barriers. And they are allies of fascism. See?

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Man: (Unintelligible aside) (Pause) A poet [Anton Alexander Von Auersperg] once said, Enemies?

You have no enemies, so you say.
But alas, my friend, your boast is poor.
For he who has mingled in the fray
that the brave endure,
must have made foes. If you’ve made none,
small is the work that you’ve done.
You’ve never faced a hostile horde,
nor pac— placed your principles clear and above board,
you’ve never changed the wrong to right,
you’ve been a traitor in the fight.

(Laughs) See?

Congregation: Applause

Man: So Jim Jones, don’t worry about [Lester] Kinsolving. (Laughs) He’s a little man. Don’t worry about these kind of people, because Jim Jones is walking down the life’s path, and he’s taught us how to enjoy the trip. Enjoy the trip. (Calls out) Work together, children. Work together, children. Work together!

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Man: There is no way that we can possibly lose, because, as I’ve said before, my friends, this concept is certainly an island of democracy in a whole ocean of bigotry and hate. You see?

Congregation: Applause

Man: (Conversational tone) And some day, some day, my friends, when my friend Jim Jones’ hair has been dusted with streaks of gray, as a result of many years of great service in the betterment of mankind, he shall be able to say to my young brothers and sisters, and everyone around him,

You shall know, my sons, you shall know, (Calls out)
why I leave the song unsung,
the book unread, the work undone,
the rest beneath the sod.
Weep no more.
Why lies and smears were framed,
the tears I shed and the hurt I bore,
for all the world shall be proclaimed,
and the earth shall smile,
and green above my resting place
and all the killing end,
the world rejoice and brotherhood and peace,
work and build, my sons,
the monument to peace and love and joy
and that faith that I keep
for you, my sons, for you.

[Paraphrase of poem, “Saengchai Sunthornwat: In Memory,” by Ethel Rosenberg]

Play softly, dear.
An old man traveled a lonely highway.
He came at evening cold and gray
to a chasm, vast deep and wide,
that he had to cross to the other side.
That old man crossed in the twilight dim,
for the sullen stream held no fears for Jim.
But he turned as he crossed to the other side,
and began to build a bridge to span the tide.
A pilgrim who was standing there,
said old man, you’re wasting your time building here.
Your journey will end at the close of this day,
and you never again will come this way.
You’ve crossed the chasm vast, deep and wide.
Why build a bridge at evening tide?
But Jim Jones lifted his proud, proud head.
Good friend, the path that I’ve come, he said,
there followeth me a youth someday,
whose feet must also pass this way,
this stream that has meant nothing to me,
to my young friend a pitfall might be.
He too must cross in the twilight dim.
Good friends, I am building the bridge for him.

[Paraphrase of poem, “The Bridge Builder,” by Will Allen Dromgoole]

Amen. Ha-ha-hah! (Laughs)

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Man: Thank you, sister. (Pause)

(Silence for several moments)

Jones: That was— (silence for moment) had recognized it. Our Los Angeles Temple, as you know, is very large, and it’s filled on Thursday nights in our miracle service, and it was the two hundred and twelfth time that such an unfoldment has taken place there. Not one— not one since we have exercised— not theorized, but exercised, and manifested the Godship degree, not one person has ever died that has not been resurrected in my presence.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: Peace. (Pause) That isn’t a matter for you to theorize about. Because hypothetically, that’s difficult to embrace. I can realize the significance of how difficult that would be to embrace. But we have doctors who are members of our church. Just a wonderful letter written by Dr. Massey [Dr. J. Bruce Massey], of— he said I have examined and have seen these expectorated growths, and he said I know, that in spite of my own thoughts, this man is able to bring out cancers out of bodies and make them every would whole.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: The same was said of Dr. Perkins, the head of the hospital, he said, beyond all shadow of a doubt, this man is able to perform cures that are believed by science to be impossible, because, he said, I have seen the lame walk, ‘cause the day he was there, the last time that he wrote the letter, a man left a wheelchair that’d been paralyzed for nine long years. And it was wonderful, this last Sunday, when Samuel Goldwyn Mayer studios was making the movie of us, two left their wheelchairs, people dropped their crutches, dropped their back braces, and were healed all over the assembly. Today the studio called, and they said it is— now, I’m saying what they said to our secretary, Mrs. [Lisa] Layton and to others. They said, it is Hollywood material. It looks almost so unbelievable that it looks like a dramatization, but said, we know it’s real, because we were there.

Congregation: Sustained cheers and applause.

Jones: They said, we went to healer after healer, we sought out religious science, (unintelligible word), we sought out [evangelist Kathryn] Kuhlman, [evangelist Oral] Roberts, and of all the great name healers, and we could not find one healing, and they said, you gave us in five minutes more healings than we ever heard about, much less, never saw.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: So it’s a good— It’s a good thing on the record to have that. The film will be released to 60 television stations. It’ll appear here, as it’s gotten together. We’re going over the final draft, (unintelligible word) the next few days, with the CBS minister who’s now in our church, who was a network CBS, uh, manager, [Mike Prokes] he will be going over it to see that it is in the finest form that it can possibly be in rev— revelation of the people, because we want it to demonstrate integration and unity, as well as healings. Certainly— It’s no doubt about it, when you see someone in a wheelchair, come out of the wheelchair, when you see people that were crippled for years, immediately healed, a man who had had an injury to his back that had left him permanently crippled, just straightened up and looked before the television eyes in wonderment, (tone of wonder) “It’s gone.”

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: It’s gone. (Pause) And we do these things. We do these things, not only because we are desirous to heal sick bodies, and indeed we are, but we do these things as signs that follow the believers in democratic socialism, in black liberation, we do these as attention means, to bring people to the wholeness of mind, to the healing of mind that we have, that will not only change bodies, but will change the nation.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: For many years, I looked out on this wide extended plain, and I viewed the dilemmas of um, humanity and all of their incongruous religions. One Baptist church setting on one corner, and another Baptist on the other, each saying that the other was going to hell, that kind of division, even amongst the Baptist churches. And I heard all these voices of religion, and I wondered, why is it that they can hold the people in their stance that they can, an impossible immobilization and falls in the mind of people, when they take religion that has to do with the future world. They’re uh, incapacitated. They’re immobilized. They will do nothing about the circumstances about the here and now. And I looked as a child at the erroneousness of it all. All I could see was preachers getting Cadillacs, and Roll-Royces, unfortunately even some of those who call themselves leaders today in emancipated churches, their leaders will have Rolls-Royces. Did you hear what I said?

Congregation: Yes. Scattered applause

Jones: Emancipated leaders will have Rolls-Royces and Cadillacs. They cannot be emancipated leaders and own Rowl— Rolls-Royces and Cadillacs. They’ll have to come as I, and use choir robes or something akin to it, and put the money in the people’s hands, for land, jobs, industry, businesses, and social justice in the courts.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: I say to you, this is what your conscience will have to deal with. I say no true leader of the people would drive around in a new Cadillac. I cannot even own a car in good conscience. And I could not own a Cadillac, though some of you do— you did it before you knew me, or if you didn’t, you should ashamed of yourself. Because anyone that can drive around in Cadillacs and Rolls-Royces, when one-half of the black population today are jobless, that person is not capable of leading you anywhere but to hell.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: Now you— you stir up your own pure conscience— You just stir up your own pure conscience. If you did not wish to believe me for my work’s sake— and we brought seven people out of wheelchairs in the last few days, and we brought one lady back from the dead last night, that was bleeding in her eighties, and she came back, could not move, her eyes set against the ceiling, her tongue hanging out. I mean, she had every loss of vital sign, I wouldn’t’ve believed it myself, if I hadn’t seen it demonstrated over and over again, I would say it’s impossible. And as I looked out over the array of religious systems, and saw what people achieve with nothing— they achieved all this by promising them furniture in heaven, or pie in the sky in the sweet bye and bye. And I looked around, and all these churches had empty vessels. Their wells were like empty cisterns, as the old Proverbs said, the Proverbs of Allah and the Proverbs of Jehovah Jarra. They were empty cisterns. They couldn’t do a thing. All the preachers could do was drive around in the Cadillac. (Voice rises to ministerial cadence) So I said at that moment, if there’s any God in the universe, let it be deposited in me. If there’s any energy in the universe, let it be combusted in me. And that moment, it happened. And ever since that moment—

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: Ever since that moment, I have seen myself as God, and I have seen my children as gods, and because we see God, we have not been dying, and we have not had one— not one person— Peace. We have not had one person suffer a stroke in all these years since I came on the scene. The one that did have it, Sister Moore, she’s dancing around these days, healed, because I touched her. She was paralyzed on her side, and Sister [Rose] Shelton was paralyzed on her side, but not one, since I have said there’s no God in these empty churches, so I will get on with the business of being what they say they’re looking for.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: Now you say, you say some kind of blasphemy. No, I say, the science of Christianity, the science of Mohammadism, the science of Buddhism, the science of Judaism, it says, as a man thinketh in his mind, so is he. In my mind, I know I’m God.

Congregation: Sustained cheers and applause.

Jones: That’ll shake you up, didn’t it, sister? That’ll shake you up. Pray a little bit about that.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: Peace. (Calls out) And it’s working. (Conversational) You know, they say, when everything works justifiably and for goodness, use it. If it doesn’t work, then don’t use it. But if it works, use it, employ it, if it is of goodness and if it is of righteousness, whatsoever thing is lovely, whatsoever thing is good. Use it. Well, I’m using this consciousness. And it’s nothing more than your Scripture spoke about. When they came to nail Jesus on the cross, he didn’t have as keen perception as I have these days. Man came down the aisle a few Sundays ago to shoot me, and I’d already taken his gun away from him.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: Didn’t he? Come running down, and he said, “If I’d had my gun,” but his gun was gone. (Pause) His gun was gone, because I had already had the ushers to slip up and get the gun from him, because I knew he had the gun, the weapon, and they— he got in the building with the weapon. And I said, because of this, so that others will not try to harm this work— Not that I mind dying, because when you get in the Godship degree, you don’t care whether you live or you die, you only want to serve. And so I said, it matters not what is done to me, but the people still need me, as they needed some others here, and so I said, because of it, I’m going to cause you to lose your mind, so you will not be able to say a word. Have you seen him on the streets? He’s babbling, picking things out of the air. He’s still babbling, and he’ll continue to babble, until the thing gets uh, corrected in his mind, and then I’ll bring him back in here, and he’ll be able to talk straight again.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: The head of the mayor’s youth commission can tell you, Reverend Brown can tell you, he saw him just yesterday, and he said he was mumbling in unknown languages, picking things out of the sky. That’s what he got, because he meddled with something you don’t believe in. But you see, I believe in it, and some of my people believe in it, and you better not mess with it.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: It’s wonderful. (Pause) Our business is healing, our business is deliverance, our business is emancipation. We don’t like to talk about those things. You say, why do you talk of the destructive side? Well, you’ve got some mean people. (Pause) They— They’re mean because they’ve never been treated nicely. And before you can get their attention, you sometimes have to stop them with their own method. Get their attention with their own method. That would be a negative way. Young woman in this group, now one of our sweet sisters, she was— she’d stolen a thousand dollars off of people that couldn’t afford it. I couldn’t reach her through love, so I struck her dead on this platform.

Congregation: Scattered applause

Jones: Yeah. She sits in our choir today. She made restitution of that money, and she said she would’ve have never learned it. She never learned it through goodness. She sit under my ministry for months and never found it through the osmosis of goodness. Not one time did she respond to goodness. But when she fell dead, she did respond.

Congregation: Scattered applause

End of side one

 

Side 2

Jones: (Conversational) Take care of them. When they do that, they’ll be all right.

Congregation: Scattered applause

Jones: I’m not only working in here, but some people outside of this room of course believe in what I represent, and so I just gave a promise to somebody that is in a condition that seems to be death, but they’ll be all right.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: Peace. (Calls out) It matters not— (Tone moderates) Now, if you had come along some time ago, we might have listened to you. But you people, you come along with books that don’t even make sense, your black book was written by a white king, that was written by a racist king at that, who sent the first Good Ship Jesus to Africa to bring back slaves. In the name of Jesus, he brought your ancestors here. In the name of Jesus, he killed and crucified my ancestors, the Indians. In the name of Jesus, King James murdered the early white colonists, even, that opposed his system. Now you people come with a little black book, that doesn’t know which way heaven is, it can’t even tell you how Jesus was born. It is so confused, that black book you’ve got, called the King James Bible, it’s so confused — and I’m talking about the books of Mohammed and every one of the rest of them, all the books of Abraham, they’re so confused, that if you read them, you’ll find that Abraham gets younger as his children get older. Or if you read about Jesus, you will find that Jesus has one set of grandparents in Luke, and he’s got another set of grandparents in Matthew, and— but he’s got 15 more grandparents, as you trace him back to Abraham, in Luke 3, as he does in Matthew 1. It doesn’t know whether Jesus— what he was born, went to Egypt to flee from King Herod, or whether he stayed and kept the feast of the Passover every year in Jerusalem with his parent, because one chapter in the Bible said he c— stayed every year, and kept the feast of the Passover. The other chapter says he went over to Egypt. One chapter says he died amixed three— amongst three thieves. And all three thieves railed upon him. Another chapter says, only one refused to. The ones rebuked the others, and Jesus said to that thief, this day, thou shall be with me in Paradise. Your Bible, your King James Bible, written by the racist king of England, who brought the first ship Jesus to bring back our people in chains, in slavery, he said so many things in so many different places, he was like the town gossip. You don’t know what was true or what wasn’t true. He said Jesus would be three days in the belly of the earth. He would be dead for three days, this temple will lay three days, and then it’ll rise. Yet you have a Good Friday service at high noon, and you celebrate his rising on Sunday morning, and the Bible said that he died on Friday and he rose on Sunday. (Pause) That, my child, only means about a day and a half. If you can stretch Friday evening, or Friday at 3 or noon, if you can stretch that from Sunday morning at 6, if you can stretch that into three days, then you’re a bigger liar than King James.

Congregation: Scattered applause.

Jones: So you see, what you need to get today is something that works. And I would say that I’m— am in admiration of many people who have found their own black religion and their own Indian religions these days. They have found Indian religions, particularly an Indian group, where the leader— one of the leaders [mostly likely Dennis Banks], I’m in contact with him, just sent him some supplies to Wounded Knee, they were trying to conduct their religious festival in South Dakota, and the governor [Richard F. Kneip] refused to let them have their ancient festival this year, first time in all the history, and the FBI and the Treasury Department all stopped them, and walled them around, so that they cannot worship the Great Spirit. But he is a leader that has— is living primitively, living without anything, giving to his people. And I’m all for you getting a religion that will work. I’m only here, because I have not found anything else that would work better. I wanted to join the Muslims, but the— they would tell me that uh, as on last Sunday, I had to jump off this t— pulpit and run down there, because they called one of my sisters over there, who is black, they called— one of their men called her a yellow bitch. (Pause) Over there she is. And I walked down and I said, uh what— uh what kind of business is this, that we call peoples names like this? Well, the person who said it, naturally, it’s not our will that we do this. Well, I went on upstairs and I had a few words with the leader, and I said we can’t ha— we can’t cooperate that way. And now, when we build a racism in reverse, that begins to look at the shade of somebody’s skin, and because one is a little lighter black, and we call them a yellow bitch, there[‘s] no way I can get with this. Because I was very interested in becoming a part of the Muslim movement. Well, that’s going to shock some of you.

Congregation: Scattered laughter

Jones: I wanted to make a identification and a communication with the Muslims, because I saw them doing something to give black identify and black pride. But the problem is, (stumbles over words) it’s good for them, and it’s workable for many conscientious people there, but I don’t like seeing that Rolls Royce sitting out on the street out here, every Sunday. That Rolls Royce worth thirty-five or forty thousand dollars bothers me. I think we could use that more acceptably for land. And I understand that many of their leaders, or many of their workers, have that kind of feeling, that the leaders should have this. I don’t think we need leaders in Rolls Royces. I think we need leaders down on the level with their people. Now, don’t get mixed up by these robes. It’s a old workshirt under here. These are used robes that folks had when they were in far worse churches than Muslims. Now if I were going to join any church, it’d be the Muslims. But I can’t join the Muslims, because of some things like that. I can’t join the Muslims because they don’t keep a tight enough control on some of their leaders. The man next door who was a kindly sort of hippie, he’s beat nearly to death two days ago. He lays in a bed. I went over to visit him. And of course, there’s two sides of every story. But I’ve never seen him raise a finger to anyone. I’ve never seen him do a harm to anyone. And I went down and talked to the brothers today, and I said, why is he beaten like that? Said, well he’d said something to one of our sisters. Well, uh, a— indeed, that’s all right. I think we need to protect our sisters. Long enough we haven’t. But if— ah, in front of our church is a white parking zone, front of their church is a white parking zone. They’re not supposed to use ours, we don’t use theirs. And this man’s church next to ours, he has a white parking zone. And someone was parking at— in— in that zone. Well, as a result of him asking to move, or whatever he did, he was beaten within an inch of his life. I saw him today, and my sisters were out there and saw what happened. They not only stopped him, but they beat him so badly that his ear is off, part of his ear, with a claw hammer. They beat him so badly that a— the backbone shattered in— and nearly severed his spine. Now I feel that we need blacks with power, and we need black identity, and we need to have a determination that nobody’s going to walk over us, but we should not let violence get out of control, (voice strengthens) and that’s what some of our people are doing today, they’re letting violence get out of control.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: Peace. Now as I say, the CIA can plant some people in any movement. [An] Intelligence agency is quite capable of planting a bad person in a Muslim faith as they are planting one in here. She looks very nice, elderly sister, and claps her hands, you would think she thinks I’m God, but she don’t know that I am God, and I know what the hell she’s up to.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: Peace. See, God is a static principle that anyone can find. Anyone can determine to be God, if they wish to be. If you’ll sacrifice your own selfishness, and lay down your own will, then you can have this abstract principle as an incarnate reality in your body. Oh, it doesn’t come easily. Don’t think it will. It comes through much self-denial in practice. It comes through much struggle and suffering. It comes through the giving of yourself entirely to principle, to justice, to goodness. God, they say, is love. Then you must give yourself wholeheartedly to that principle.

Now, I have given it so much that you saw them stab me, and you saw me get right up. You saw them shoot me one time, in our annual meeting, before 400 of you, they shot me, and I didn’t even want the uh, the person to be hurt. Because I do have love that wants to restore. And even though the people put their fingers through the holes— and there were three of them, they said, I didn’t bother to look, ‘cause I don’t find help by looking at holes. My help does not come from looking at holes. But they dug them out, and said, you’ve got to get to a doctor. I said, if I do, I’ll end up being what I am. Not for you, you should use doctors. You should use them completely. But I’ve reached to a certain place that— and uh, at that moment a doctor couldn’t have helped me an inch. He’da got nervous. And he might have made me nervous. All I needed was just a few faithful people, and one of the most faithful things, they brought my old dog up beside me. And my dog licked me, and I knew that nobody’d be as good to my old dog as I was, and Sister Inez over there, she said s— a few words, I don’t remember, I went unconscious for a minute, I don’t remember what she said. But you said, oh, you can’t go, or something, my God, my God, you can’t go, and you kept saying something over me, as they— as the blood was flowing out of my chest. What was it you said?

Inez: (Reply too soft)

Jones: You reminded me of who I was. I remember that.

Inez: I was repeating Ezekiel 16 and 6, that says, as I pass by thee, Jim Jones, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee, live. Yea, I said unto thee, when thou wast in thy blood, live, and I just kept repeating—

Jones: Say— say that again, now, loudly, because when you said that, it renewed— (Pause) Will you say it now?

Inez: As I pass by thee, Jim Jones—

Jones: You see— you see, I’ve got power like that. I can just hit microphones. I can just hit a microphone, because I’m silly enough to believe in what I am. And if it works, honey, you better get on my team.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Inez: As I—

Jones: Now this is not just one time, I do that all the time. How many have seen me do it at least 500 times? All right.

Inez: As I passed by thee, Jim Jones, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee, live. Yea, I said unto thee, when thou wast— when thou wast in thy blood, live. And I kept repeating that, because I knew it would stop blood. That— I have done it with other people.

Jones: You believed in me.

Inez: I believed you. I believed you.

Jones: And you believe in what I was—

Inez: That’s right—

Jones: —and you reminded me of what I was, and because of that, I heard that cry going out, a cry of desperation, and so when the registered nurses and the medical people were putting their— swabbing out those holes, I said, leave them alone. That’s what I said. I don’t recommend that for anyone but me, but it works for me. I said, leave them alone. I went back into the meeting, and a young man back there, standing on the wall, he had epileptic seizure after epileptic seizure, but I’ve never had to heal him once since then, he’s never had another epileptic seizure in my midst. That night, he went into a terrible seizure, and I healed him, and I preached the whole night long. All I did was just drink a lot of water, but I stayed on the scene.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: Well, it’s indeed beautiful to find that this principle is as incarnatable as the smile of a child. It is incarnatable, if you will practice it. But you have to practice to be the virtuoso of Godship degree. You can get a sixty percent level, the Scripture speaks of it, sixty-fold, thirty-fold, but there’s a hundredfold, a place where you’re one hundred percent in the mind, and the mind is in you, and the energy of God become identical with your nature, and your will become identical with the will of the (unintelligible; phonetically, “sunnom bunnom”) of the highest order of existence, the will of Truth, the will of Justice, the will of Socialism. Now it is so effective— it is so effective that that is only one time out of many. My young man who’s in the sheriff department was shot in the head, but I stopped it, and he got up and walked away from the mayflower’s— and he’s someplace around now in the building. Two of our sisters’ sons were shot, brains shattered with bullets. They got up upon my command, upon my word, they got up, and walked away from their hospital. Sister Peterson [probably Rosa Lee Peterson], what is it— (Pause) her son, and Sister— what’s the other sister? What’s the other sister, the Indian sister? Well, you know who I’m speaking of. She testified last night. Another miracle. Because she believes in me. Had some other dramatic miracle. Somebody’s back was healed. ‘Cause we had a great miracle last night, a sister had a— was told by this sister of a healing she’d received, and been told about this gun that had shot and been fired into the body of this person’s head, and they got up and walked away, when they said they would never walk or talk again, and this woman had a broken back. She said, let me have the picture of this man. And they put her (laughs)— They put the— She put that picture in, what— Oklahoma, was it, Oklahoma City, put that picture (draws out word) all around her— her back, and got up. She got up and she went out, and they said to her, you better see another doctor. She got out and she made them cut that cast off her back, (Pause) and she went to another doctor, and the doctor said uh— She said, my back’s been broken. He looked at her and said, no, it hasn’t. Then she said, well, it— They said it was, and said, I got healed. He said, you’re crazy woman, it has not. She said, well, I— I (stumbles over words) tell you, I was over at the hospital, and he called up and jawed the hospital. He said, you put a woman in a cast that never had her back broken. And she said, I just laughed, and let them argue, because she said, I know it was broken, they wouldn’t have put me in the cast and put me in the hospital and hung me up there in traction, but she said, she got herself out— she had to first crawl to do it. She started to crawl, but by the time she got on the street, she was even moving that cast, because she was believing in God being in me, and (calls out) it caused God to come out in her.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: Haven’t you got enough pictures? (Pause) You people got enough pictures now that ought to chase all the rats away in every town.

Congregation: Laughter

Jones: (Laughs) It’s truly wonderful. (Pause) And I would like to teach somehow to do this, and I’m working on that, I’m working on teaching a school of gods, but it— some of them are slow learners. (Pause) They don’t have enough faith in themselves in that area. They’re tremendous geniuses in other areas, but they don’t have enough faith in that area. But after a while, I’ll get somebody, because I have promised you that I will always be sitting here, (Pause) that my voice and my ideas and my justice-sense, and my emancipation-courage will always be sitting here. I’ve said that. So if this body happens to be utilized just a bit too much by all the energy I put out, I’m going to have somebody else to sit here and be able to know the thoughts like I have, be able to discern the intents of the hearts like I have, and be able to cause the cripples to get up out of the wheelchairs like I did just this yesterday, and the service the other Sunday. I’ll have somebody to do it, because I made you a promise, and I prophesy according to my measure of faith. I said to you three weeks before Dr. Ellsberg [Daniel Ellsberg, Pentagon analyst who leaked Pentagon Papers] was released, I said, I’ve had enough of that. I’ve had enough of him being the whipping boy for Mr. [Richard] Nixon. I said, I’m gonna f— free him in three weeks without a trial. And I did it.

Congregation: Light applause.

Jones: Peace. (Pause) I said to you that I was going to bring this Watergate, and I was going mix up mu— uh— Nixon. It’s gonna start in his stomach, gonna end in his mind. (Pause) You’re going to find him loony before it’s through.

Congregation: Light applause.

Jones: Very well, my child. There’s the young man that was uh, saved that was shot, walking right there, one of the sheriff’s officers. Shot in the head. Came wi— right out of the scene without any harm, trying to protect someone’s life, and he got shot in the head. Now you look in his eyes, you that don’t believe things, you look in his eyes. I know it seems weird. Just walk up and down. (Pause) Just look at him. On your life, you’re telling, that’s the truth, isn’t it, my son. All right, now, take a look, ‘cause I want to stir up a faith in you, not necessarily to get you healed of your arthritis or your back aches, but to get you healed of this racist image that you hold of yourself, so that you can get emancipated, and be able to go out there and turn this world upside down.

Congregation: Light cheers and applause.

Jones: So I’m declaring unto you, to find that which works, and to hold on to it. If you can find any leader better than I, you let me go to him. I’ll teach him some of the things that I only can do in the world today, through this great spirit, this great spirit of socialism. That’s what the great Indian spirit was. They put the tribes— the collective above the individual competition. They didn’t believe that individuals should cutthroat each other to try to get ahead, they believed in cooperation, and a bunch of honkies came over here, and destroyed a great utopian dream. Well, I’m reviving it. My Indian spirit has certain acumen that you— you won’t be able to find anywhere. You won’t find anyone that can raise the dead like I can. You won’t find anyone that can do these miracles. You won’t find anyone that can walk on water, like I did before your eyes. You’re not going to find anyone that can do some of these stunts— (short laugh) I’m dealing with somebody back there that understand “stunt.” Whatever you want to call it, it’s quite a trick, baby, to walk out, and cause the sharks to move.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: That’s what I did last year in Mexico. (Pause) All of us wanted to vacation, and I vacation with all of our people, because I don’t believe in having something that my people can’t have. This week next, we’re going on a vacation together, gonna go all through the nation, gonna go to Washington, going to go into Congress. We’re the only church that ever sit in the House of Representatives, in the seats where the congressmen sit on one of the— We were the first church that did so, and we’re going back to see several of them this time, and tell them what we want for the people. Then we’re going to tour around— But last year, we went to Mexico, to have a little time of vacation. Got down there, and there was no sun. That’s not any fun, when there’s no sun. (Pause) So I said, let there be light. And the light came. We had sun. You were there. You know.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: We got pictures of it. They’ve got pictures of it. I think you can see some of them downstairs, they’ll let you see them, where the sun comes out— someone happened to capture it with a picture, as the sun’s coming out. I said— You mean you caused the sun to shine. Whether I caused the sun to shine or moved clouds, have you found anybody lately that can move clouds?

Congregation: No. (Laughter)

Jones: Don’t you worry about what I did. We got the sun on the beach, and we were the only beach that had it, so Mexicans were coming up to use our beach, because one hundred yards down, there was clouds. One hundred yards up, there were clouds. But right where we were, wherever one of my followers who’s 98 years of age took her first swim in the ocean— she was dying when she came to me, she came sight unseen. But she believed there was God. And she left Philadelphia and drug herself here. Now she’s 98 years, cookin’ in our senior citizen uh— home every day, cooking, making other people happy, our black sister up here.

Congregation: Applause

Jones: So I say, use what works for you. That worked for us. We had a shark problem down there. So I walked out on the water, and I said to the sharks— sharks listen to me better than people, I’ve got some people down here painting their nails when they should be listening, and some of them chewing their nails. And one sister don’t know whether to run— she’s holding her Bible tight.

Congregation: Laughter, light applause

Jones: You gotta go by love, child. There only one thing to test anything— even Jesus said, whosoever loveth is born of God. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, because you have love. Jesus denied the Bible. Jesus throwed a ringer around that Bible and said, get rid of it. Yes, he did. Nehemiah and Numbers said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. Jesus come along, and he said, no longer so. Said, we’re going to have to reason together. You’ve got to love your enemies, and do good to those that despitefully use you. Now you may not like his teaching, but it’s contrary to the old Bible. The old Bible said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, a hanging for a hanging. Murder for murder. Jesus said, no. Resist not evil. He said, it’s been said of old times — you remember what he said — it’s been said of old times, that meant it was said in the Bible, it’s been said in the old Bible, of old times that you do this, but he said, I say, it’s no longer so. So Jesus threw out Bibles that didn’t work for him, and I’m throwing out some Bibles that don’t work for me.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: Jesus did not choose to live by an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth doctrine. And they followed that doctrine through Martin Luther King. Clear up, they been trying that doctrine. And I live by that doctrine, up till Martin Luther King. And I was getting shot every other week, or poisoned. General Hospital said, what was it, I’ve forgotten, how many—

Voice in crowd: (unintelligible word) —kill ten horses.

Jones: Enough to kill ten horses, and I had to go through that. And I was living very conscientiously by that Bible that you are saying is so important, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, I said, that’s the Old Testament, we can’t live that way. We’re going to try to live by love. And we’re going to love, and we’re going to overcome evil with good, and if the people slap us on the one cheek, we’re gone turn the other. Well, I turned this cheek, I turned that cheek, I turned both cheeks of my rear end—

Congregation: Light laughter

Jones: I run out of cheeks.

Congregation: Laughter

Jones: I’m being foolish, but you are saved by the foolishness of preaching, I’ve got a parable of meaning here. Now I say that they were shooting me, they run over me with a truck and twisted my leg till you wouldn’t want to look at it, and I healed it. And you remember when I jumped off that embassy, I said, you people need a leader, and it can’t be— unfortunately, I can’t be crippled and lead you, because you’re in that mind where— if I had a good mind, I would still have to have a good body p— some people are so superficial. So with all the pain that was in my body, I leaped off that embassy— no, I mean off of the Benjamin Franklin Auditorium, and leaped onto that cement, because I’ve just been foolish enough to try that which works, and from that moment on, I been running like a deer, and the doctor said that I would never be able to run again. But I did, and you saw it, and it was as big as a small elephant’s leg, but I’ve been running on it ever since, and it sure doesn’t have one little scratch or one little blue mark on it, and if you think you can outrun me, some of these boys that are 17 or 18 are not able to outrun me, and if you uh, want to really see me run, just call one of my sisters like was called last Sunday, and I was down to the church in one minute flat, and upstairs. I can get awfully fast and get where I want to go pretty rapidly, when someone picks on my children. And you should get a leader that looks after you. If you can find one that looks after you better than I do, then you let me know who he is, and I’ll join him. But I been looking everywhere. As I said, I set down to confer with the Muslims about coming in, and they said, I cannot bring this one or that one in. They wanted to reject one that was a Greek. Why, he’s the best freedom fighter I’ve got. I couldn’t reject my Greek. He wanted me to reject— They wanted me to reject my Jewish— I’ve got— The best black liberationist in this church are Jewish. Dr. [Richard] Tropp down here, who’s lost 60 of his relatives, 60 of his people were burned in the gas oven. He fights for blacks, he fights for Jewish, he fights for every underprivileged— Arabs, no matter who they are. You think I’m going to join something that my people can’t join? No. So that’s why I’m still here. But the day— the day they’ll stop putting their leaders in Rolls Royces, the day they stop putting so much money in things that the honky system builds, the day that they will say, if you act like black in heart, if you will act free in heart, don’t make any difference how much you’re mixed up— ‘cause everybody got a little mixture. (Pause) I look at Elijah Muhammad, and Elijah Muhammad don’t look like he’s all black. (Pause) If he’s all black, somebody slipped in there— with somebody— somewhere. (Laughs)

Congregation: Light applause.

Jones: (Voice rises throughout) And I know that I’m black, and I’ve got a little bit of this and I’ve got a little bit of that, I got a little Indian, I got a little Jewish, and I’ve a little Scotch, and I’ve got some Welsh, but I recognize that I couldn’t begin to identify what I am. So black is a consciousness. Black is a disposition. To act against evil. To do good. So I’m not going to sa— uh— to typify people and labelfy— uh, label people and typecast. S— One of the blonde-headed woman here was the first one to join me against the racist mob. She got out there and fought with her bare hands. She proved she was black. So I cannot join anybody that won’t accept all of you. I wish I could, because we need to get the Muslims, and we need to get the Temple, and we need to get the fine, liberal groups that are in the Jewish community, and all those that are radical Protestants, we need to get them together, but everybody wants to do their own thing. We’ve got to get together and unify, or we’re going to be overwhelmed by a common enemy.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: We get along in here. One of the chief elders in our Los Angeles church is Muslim. He goes to his Muslim worship, and has his reverence for Allah. He in fact says that I am the person of— he meant this— yu— gentleman Farad, some time ago, and he declares that I am He, because he says I look like him. Well, I could care less who I am. What I do is the important thing. But in my Temple in Los Angeles, our Temple has many Muslims, and they’re the best. And I’ve got a Buddhist sister here, who was once in a wheelchair. She sees me as Buddha. She couldn’t ha— she couldn’t get anything work for her, if she saw me as Jesus. Said, didn’t work, till she saw me as Buddha. And the brother down there that got healed of a cancer, who was a Muslim, and he’d gone to his mosque faithfully, he was dying of cancer, he had three operations, last night, he was given another revelation, called up, you know, at the end of the aw— the meeting. That man said, I could’ve never got anything from you, seeing you as Jesus, because, he said, I’d seen a white Jesus shoved down my throat too long. But he said, one day, that you said, I’ve come in the spirit of Allah, Jehovah and every other good thing, he said, that was it, and I got healed when I saw you as Allah.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: I don’t care what you see me as. You can see me as a pussycat. If pussycats work for you, child, then you see me as a pussycat, and I’ll just meow till I get you free.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: (Ministerial fervor) I won’t be particular of what you call me, as long as it works good for you. I won’t care what you say to me, as long as it makes you a better person. (Pause) (Conversational)Now some of these people, these Christians— these Christians get nervous, and it’s amazing that blacks get nervous about Christianity quicker than whites. (Small laugh) Now white people will sit, and they’ll listen to me, but black people get nervous. You’d act like— You’re acting like you’re defending your faith. (Pause) You act like you are defending your faith. You remember how you became Christian, don’t you? (Pause) The b— writer of the Bible that you carry around— one woman carried it up here one day, and I had to protect one of my brothers, Johnny. She had it in the front row. She gonna protect that Bible, said, he’s talking against the Bible, and pulled out a icepick, and if I hadn’t stopped her dumb, she’da stabbed him to death. (Pause) She was black, and she was defending Christianity. (Voice rises to ministerial cadence) She forgot that Christians brought our black people here in chains. We were the proudest and the freest. We had a great culture. We had a great civilization. They brought our princes and our kings here, and they couldn’t do anything with the first lot. They killed ‘em off right and left. But the next lot, they set ‘em down and gave ‘em a dose of white man’s religion.

Congregation: Scattered applause.

Jones: Chained us— Chained our grandparents. I know, my— one of my leading secretaries here, her grandmother refused. They tried to teach us stuff on the boat. She said, I won’t have it. Sister Collier [probably Leona Collier]. Said jumped— She jumped off the boat with her chains on, and died. She didn’t want to be any white man’s nigger. She’d rather die. And that’s what the Jews determined in Warsaw. They’d rather die than become Jews for fascism. But a lot of folk got over here, and they thought they’ll hold on to life. Now that’s— we got— why I say, we gotta change our tone now. I’ve reverted back to this. I am no longer going to turn every other cheek. I will say, I will never pick up the knife. I will never pick up the gun. But Jesus’ teachings don’t work today in America.

Congregation: Stirring.

Jones: Peace. They don’t work today in America. When I was turning my cheek, those hillbillies, and those Okies, those honkies from Yellow Flaps were coming out of the hills, shooting me, poisoning me every other day, ‘cause they said, Jim Jones will always turn the other cheek. But when I announced that I’d turned my cheek, I said, I’ve run out of cheeks. (Pause) We’ve had one-one-hundredth of the assassination attempts that we had formerly. If I stood here and told people, when they was trying to give us— people tried to do harm to us, even in this town— There’s one reason they don’t both us. They know we’re gentle. They know we wouldn’t hurt anybody. We pick up every little wounded animal, every little wounded bird, we’ve got ‘em in baskets back here, every service, healing them, nursing them, bringing them back to health. We won’t touch one of you. But if you touch one of us, you’d better be prepared to die.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

End of tape

Tape originally posted April 2002

Originally posted on June 16th, 2013.

Last modified on February 25th, 2015.
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