Annotated Transcript Q1014

(Editor’s note: This tape was transcribed by Georgiana Mamlakah. The editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance.)

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Jones: (unintelligible beginning) we come tripping in here, not once a week, but three times and four times and five times a week. And no one been scattered across the highway, and even that group from Texas that now has their jobs that testified there on Thursday night that now have their jobs in Los Angeles, five of them was thrown over the highway last week. I know how to set up the energy field to do that. Now I’ve not pretended to be your cotton-pickin’ God. I pretended to be and maintain to be and declare to be and exhibit that I am, and manifest I am, your only savior.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: Now I know just how to set up the atmosphere to do that. You just allow me to set that atmosphere up, because until you can get better results– That’s why I said, you better accept the God in me until you can do better works than I. Anybody’s a fool that doesn’t accept someone that can do a better job. [If] You’re out on a ship or on a raft, you better accept someone that knows how to keep the raft afloat. He knows something about sails, a little bit more about the rudder and the motion and the terrestrial currents and so forth. You better– You better allow that person to use their judgment, and no– and not be a fool and say, well, I know as much as he does. You better follow God in the highest degree, or good, wherever you find it. Now if you’ve found it someplace else than I, and more character than I, you let me know, ‘cause we’ll close this building tonight, and we’ll all paddle ourselves right over there.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: (Voice rises throughout) But you know you can’t find it, and I wish you could find it, because it’s a real difficult responsibility. I said I want the principle perpetuated, but I want somebody that doesn’t care about their life to perpetuate it. I want the principle to go on, but I wouldn’t want to vote on any of you to be the principle bearer. I wouldn’t want one of you to have to do it, yet it must be somebody. I’m looking for a man. I’m looking for a woman. I’m looking out. Who will I send? Who will go for me? I want to hear somebody’s heart, even tonight, some young person, say, here I am, Father God, here I am. Send me. (Isaiah 6:8, “Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.”)

Congregation: Scattered applause.

Jones: (Voice calms, then climbs throughout) But I want you to want to do it. ‘Cause you don’t want to do it. If you don’t know what you’re getting into, I don’t want you to do it all. If you want to live to serve, you find more fulfilling in serving than you would in taking, then I want you to be ready for my Godship school. ‘Cause we gotta train some gods. We are gods and sons of the Most High (Psalm 82:6, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”). The Godship principle must never get away from us. It’s only the Godship principle that keeps people from dying. It’s only the Godship principle that kept all those people from being burned alive. The Order of Man, which is supposed to be the most successful group next to us, it was burned out. They couldn’t do it. Twenty-one of their people ended up in the hospital. They don’t have it. He claims to be Paul. That’s not enough. Paul coming back won’t do it. It’s gonna take something higher than Paul. It takes the ultimate of faith. It takes the summon bonum of your confidence. You’ve got to have the highest confidence, and the thing we call the highest confidence is G.O.D.

Congregation: Applause

Jones: (Ministerial tone) Many, many a time, I said, please call me Jim, and call me this or that or the other, but every time we get down there, we have trouble. If we get down in mortality’s version and get down on the level of seeing me as a man, we don’t have this kind of protection. We’d like to be away with this labeling and away with this kind of categorazying– categorizing, but every time we do, we have trouble. That’s why then we must never let God get away from us. We’re gonna keep God in a body.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: (In full throat) We have to. It’s your survival. It’s your baby’s survival. It’s that confidence that gets them through. (Moderates, then climbs throughout) How many times a ship’s been ready to go over, ready to be destroyed. How many times a riot’s been ready to break out in a theater that was on fire, but somebody came along that they had confidence. And they would be able to hold back the aggressiveness and the frustrations that would’ve destroyed people. We’ve got to have a captain of this ship. We’ve got to have the best captain we can find, and if you can find another, good God, get him, because I’ll put him in this seat now. But I have looked over all creation. I’ve looked high, and I’ve looked low. I’ve looked on every continent. I’ve looked at the very bottom of the earth. I’ve looked at the top of the earth, and I found nobody but me, and so here I am. Use me.

Congregation: Enthusiastic applause.

Jones: (Moderates, then climbs throughout) Here I am, use me. And I will gladly know. Certainly exposure is a dangerous thing. Double exposure, triple exposure, I have triple exposure every weekend. Familiarity breeds contempt. Know how I deal with that. I have no need for anyone to teach me about people. People get used to anything. I don’t mind when they get used to me, because then that will be the end of me. ‘Cause I have come to be finished. If I can use the word quickly that comes spontan– the spontaneity from my innermost being. I’ve come to be expended. So you won’t bother me when you get finished with me, but you’ll be bothered when you get finished with me. That’s why we have to think always to keep this office in its proper perspective. I cannot be like I’d like to be, ‘cause I just want to be a chum of yours. I want to get down there and hobnob with you. I want to be able to just be right on the level with you all the time and just fellowship and sit around over a cup of ginseng tea, if it were, but I cannot because your survival depends that I be high and lifted up. And if I be lifted up, I will draw, I will save, I will heal.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: Peace. (In full throat) Now I would love to have the ordinary social intercourses and all the other intercourses. How lovely it would be, because I’m flesh of your flesh and bone of your bone, (Genesis 2:23, “And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh…”) but I have been willing to set myself apart as the loneliest of men to be of way and removed and alienated and unknown. I’m always gonna be unknown. I only want to save you. (Voice moderates) If that would be to be a piece of pin, or just a little needle on that wall or that little fire siren or that exit sign. I’m only here to save you. And I have to be unfamiliar to save you, and I have to always know how much I’m exposing myself, and yet I have to give enough exposure that you’ll know the truth. It’s a terrible job, to just not give too much of yourself so you’ll run out too soon and your people will be lost. I don’t want you to be lost, until somebody else comes along. (Pause) And I’ve looked around, I don’t see anybody coming along. (Clears throat).

Congregation: Delayed applause.

Jones: (Conversational) I see some coming up. But I don’t see anyone coming along. I see some babes, some of you precious ones that’ve got the potential, that you would get yourself out of the way, I think, in time, but there’s certainly nobody outside. Nobody gonna look at people like I do and know what’s in them and put up with it. That’s a dreadful thing, to know that people– to know you’re only of value as long as you’re useful. To know that people’ll get rid of you tomorrow, just like a piece of soap. They’ll use that soap until it washes– as long as it washes, then when it gets down to a little bit of cake, and they’ll just flush it down the toilet. And that’s what it mean, people using me. And I’m willing for them to be– to use me. Not love me, but to use me. Very few leaders are like that. They think they’ll loved. They never can face the fact that their day’s gonna come when they won’t be needed anymore. I have faced that when I started. That’s what makes me the most unique leader you’ve ever had. I’ve faced the fact that my own oblivion will come, that my own usefulness will one day be finished. I know that you will need me no more one day, when my body happens to look like it is not as youthful as it might be or should be, when I don’t have as much energy and can’t run or can’t keep up night or day counseling, can’t continue this rab– this terrible, driving slave pace. I know I will be finished, but I keep on driving myself because I love you, and no one’s ever (breathless word) loved you so much. No one has ever loved you half so much–

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: (Moderates, then climbs throughout) –not even a tenth so much. I have no mistake and disillusionment. I have no illusions of power nor grandeur. I know what the future holds for all who will bear the marks of Christ (Galatians 6:17, “From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.”), for all who will take up the mantle and be a God in the earth. I know what it means. And I don’t want any of you to walk into it with blinders on. Don’t anybody walk into it with blinders on, because it’s the loneliest post. They say the president of the United States is alone. Oh, he doesn’t know anything about loneliness. The loneliest post– All he has to do is at least make right normal human decisions. I can do that, but I’ve got to heal just so many people. I’ve got to pull enough miracles out of the hat. I’ve got to build a dynamism all the time, not a– I can always be a good character. Good God, there’ll never be anybody as honest as I. Nobody’ll ever fight for you like I. There never was a human that would die and live for you like I. But I’ve got to be a God on top of it. I’m in the loneliest office of all the world.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: Some of you don’t clap, because you don’t know what’s going on. You don’t know what I have to do.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: (in full throat) Everything here that’s done, I order. Everything that comes about, I set it up. Everything that takes place, I bring it about. Every plan, it’s mine. Every dream, it’s mine. Every administration, it’s mine. You need me. Oh God, you need me.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: Talk to those. Talk to those, they’ll need me too one day. Poor little things, they’ll need me. (Pause, calms) I don’t care when people choose to go otherwise. I just know that they’re gonna need me. (Pause) Talked to the leader of another group close by our church today, and he was so nervous. He said, I don’t know what I’d do if this happens to me. Please don’t mention that we uh– that you get any of our things. Supposed to be the bravest group in– in the black community. Please don’t mention that you buy our bread or this, that or the other. My God almighty. People scared, shaking in the boots, the teeth was rattling, afraid they’re gonna get burned down. I’m not afraid. The only leader you ever had. They say, oh, said, please thank you. I– Well, they didn’t. I just said, well, I won’t mention your name and so you won’t be connected with us. And oh, they were so relieved. They thanked Chris [likely Chris Lewis] and they thanked Johnny Brown and oh, they said, it so thoughtful, your pastor, ‘cause I don’t know what I would do. What kind of leaders people have? Oh, my God. They don’t know what they would do, if their little old building got burned down. Well, they better get used to something more than that gonna happen, ‘cause their little old something else’s gonna get burned down. (Short laugh)

Congregation: Scattered applause.

Jones: (Voice rises) Any leader who’s really a father, is gonna get his boom boom burned down. That’s what he’s gonna get. He’s gonna get his body consumed, gonna get his rear end consumed, he’s gonna have to be consumed for his people, he’s gonna have to die that his people might live. Any leader that’s a father that’s worth a salt will die that his people might live, and then he’s afraid he’s gonna have his little old building burned down. You’ve got no leader. That’s why I beg you, don’t go out. You’ve got no friend. You’ve got no father. There’s only one. Jim Jones is his name.

Congregation: Cheers and applause.

Jones: (Moderates) Some of my own people would not be able to give you your strength. They’d let you down. They’d do you in. I won’t let you be done in. Spit in my face, I won’t let you be done in. Man in Ukiah, [Lester Kinsolving] evil, evil man, oh God, what he is. Terrible thing he’s done. A minister. And I’m the only thing that keeps this group from puttin’ him behind bars. And the only reason I don’t put him behind bars is because I don’t want to hurt anybody, and he’s got children. He’s hurtin’ us. Every minute he hurts us. But I’m the only man I know that won’t give you back an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth (Exodus 21:23-24, “And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.” Also, Leviticus 24:20, Deuteronomy 19:21; countered by Matthew 5:38-39.). I won’t give it back to you.

Voice in Congregation: That’s right.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: Met this crusade when they came– they wanted me to go down to get Kinsolving. I haven’t got it an enemy. We’ve got evidence on him pretty bad. But I’m not– I’m not out for blood. I’m out to save. Seek and save those who want to be saved (Luke 19:10, “For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.”). Bless your hearts. (voice drops to a whisper) So I uh, just uh, relax uh– It’s all right. Been preoccupied about her dog and other thing. Just relax, darling, just relax. (Pause) Yeah, I know, well, she just needs to get relaxed. I don’t– don’t need to be told what– whatever bother to tell me (unintelligible word) anybody is happy. Don’t ever do that. She’s preoccupied with an obsession particularly about her dog. Peace. Now who’s gonna stand and help us get these– We’ve already paid for some, we’ve got to pay for some more. Who’ll give us 20 or 25? Who’ll give us something here tonight to get those items that we need? Gotta do it. It’s up to you and I to do it, nobody else gone do it. Nobody else is gone befriend us. We haven’t had a church offer to befriend, they’re afraid to lift up the telephone, even know us. The politicians have, the mayor [Joseph Alioto] has, the city officials have, the mayor’s assistant [Joe Johnson, Assistant Deputy Mayor for Social Programs of San Francisco] gave us a hundred dollars on Friday. But these churches are running, they’re all cowards. There isn’t– there nobody in the church world that’s got any– any strength. They don’t even want to let anybody know they know us.

Voice in Congregation: That’s right.

Jones: Yeah, I mean that. Scared to death. Scared to death. Afraid they’re gonna be burned down next. (Pause) I’m glad ours [is] over with. You know, it’s like your appendix. They’ve got ours out, honey. We’re ready now. You want– Once they get this– (laughs).

Congregation: Scattered applause.

Jones: All their preparations, they won’t make as– well, much preparation as we are, because we’ve been through it. We’re gonna keep that fire vivid in our mind. We’ll be not caught with our proverbials down the next time. Father had an answer. He had a fence built all around us, as that precious pianist of ours is saying– s– has written and sings so beautifully, that choir ren– renders so lovely. I had a fence. I had a fence provided with alarm systems and had fence with security system, fence even for the insurance, but we– we kind of got busy with other things and didn’t get all those thing done. Now we’ve learned a lesson. I think a whole lot of people now that’ll not be careless the next time. But most important, let it all be gone, not what money we’ve lost. Let us remember that not a life was lost, and that’s the greatest miracle ever told.

Voice in Congregation: Yeah.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: (clears throat) (conversational) I wish I could take you through that building, like some of the people who’ve lived there, been there. I wish I could sh– show you the places where they’ve been saying, when everything else was burned to a crisp, for instance, our files, our letter files, and the necessary information to get to people and the files about their health. Good God, all those things were saved, where pictures were. Every vital thing like that was saved. Our tapes, they couldn’t be replaced. Our records, all those records. Now you know how quick a record will burn up? The record didn’t even singe. Not a record.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: You know how candles melt? Those blessed candles? Not a candle melted. Not a scorch on a candle.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: I swear on my children’s life, this is true. Go out there and ask the people at the counter. It’s true, whole truth, nothing but the truth. You ought to take a look at that angry building, you’d know what a miracle it was. I can’t tell you, it– only– only thing I can think of when I think of that building is a burned-out match stick. That’s the way it looks from the beginning to the end, except where Bea Morton had a picture, or Jane Mutschmann had a picture, or here and there, everything else, and they’ll be a little old covey like that will be hanging on nothing. The floor out from under it, the roof out from under it, just hanging on there secure, and like her, where– where she had her pictures, not even the dress– not the dress burned, not even the bread– bedspread burned. (Pause) What? Curtains still hanging up, and everything else gone. Except her equipment. My my my my my my my my my my.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: Who’ll give us tonight to help us get this thing? We only uh– after all the effort that was made by Sister Davis. We just come out with– We didn’t come out with enough to pay the custodial people tonight. Two hundred and some dollars. That’s it, that’s it.. So we gotta do something, folks. When– when– when we had Redwood Valley meetings and uh, didn’t even come here on Sunday nights, we’d go home, we’d always come out with five times times that. I don’t quite figure it out, ‘cause Redwood Valley is supposed to be here. If people don’t want to come any worse than that, I mean we’ll just have the Sunday service and go on home and take care of our business, but somebody’ll get in the ditch, and I’ll have to get them out. That’s why I keep ‘em around me so much. You think I enjoyed having you come to meetings. I know you’re safe when you’re with me. ‘Cause you die with me, I can resurrect you.

Voice in Congregation: That’s right.

Jones: You have a stroke like that man was having there, I can get you– sh– get you through it. But you go home– some of you don’t have– some of you don’t know the problems and the difficulties. You’ll get yourself in trouble before you go down a street. Somebody’ll be in jail tonight, if they weren’t here. Sure, they make a decision and it was wrong. Good people make wrong decisions. I know when you’re here, I can look after you. You think I like to come to church all day? Huh-uh, huh-uh, huh-uh [no]. I’d love to be out there and sit and listen to this beautiful choir and listen to your testimonies – I enjoy that part – but when my time comes, oh, I’d rather be hung. I like to hear you people testify and sing and clap, but when I get on the program, I just sit and look at you. You wonder why I look at you? I say, oh, will the day come when I can have somebody else to come in my task so that I can be out there and carry somebody’s coat. But I know it won’t come, ‘til I finally get to the place where I’m broken in a body, if that were the case. Then when I really needed somebody, then that would– then it would come. So I’m prepared for that. I’m– I’m prepared that uh, when I cannot function, if my body wouldn’t function, I’m prepared to grad– drag myself to a graveyard, so you won’t be handicapped. That’s the kind of commitment I have, that’s what makes me a very trusted savior. I remember when they run over me with a truck, I said to myself, if I can’t get myself straightened around and uh, I know what’ll happen, they’ll even crush my children, they’ll crush everybody that needs me. There’ll be some – not many of you – a lot of you are good people, refined people – but there’re some that would crush me. I said if I cannot get my st– my uh, legs straightened out, I know how to get my body straightened out. I know a way to stop breathing. That’s the way you have to think, if you’re gonna be in this line. If you’re gonna be in the front line, you gotta be ready– If you can’t keep yourself going, to get yourself out of the way. I– uh, the old dogs have got more sense than humans. (Pause) I don’t want you to do that, ‘cause I’ll take care of you. You’ve been my precious children. And I don’t care how tired you get, I’ll find a corner for you and I’ll find some good food for you. I don’t care how tired or hindered you may be or handicapped, you’re my old dog or young dog or new dog or whatever, don’t make any difference, you’re all my children. (voice rises) But if I personally got into trouble, I won’t be any care on you. You won’t ever take care of me. There’ll never be nobody have to wait on me in a bed. There’ll nobody have ever– have to bring me any food in my bed. I will be gone, I will stand on my feet and serve you, and when I can’t, I will remove myself, I do declare.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: (Moderates) Don’t you do my children that way, though. That’s my decision. ‘Cause I’ve had to be so much, that I can’t afford to ever get in– in a bed. I can’t afford to get in a wheelchair. You can, though. You don’t have to be God. You’re just my children. You understand what I’m talking about? I’m talking very simple plain facts tonight. So before you want to become my successor, you better know what you’re in for. I’ve set an awful hard line. I’ve laid down an awful difficult road. I’ve set down some very difficult steps for you to follow in. I wish sometimes I hadn’t, ‘cause I’m making it rough for my successor. But I don’t know how to do anything else, but be just me. And to be just me means to be in love with you. And to give for you. And to care for you. But I hope somebody’s stirred up in this place, that cares. I look at people sleeping, when I’m the– Thank you, thank you (unintelligible name). I hope that somebody’s stirred up to such a degree that they’ll care like that. Some of you don’t even relate to what I’m talking about. You’re all– you’re– you’re– you’re either taken aback because you think, why, God, he can always be here. (voice rises) I have to fight to be here. They’ve tried to kill me, poison me, run over me, and I made up my mind that I will be here or ever bit whole, I’ll be able to– be able to give you strength, or I will take my own breath. I will not be a God that has to be cared for. A God comes to be serving, not to be served. A God comes to give, not to receive. I will give and when I cannot give, I will get out of the way, so that something will come on that cannot die.

Congregation: Scattered applause.

Jones: (Moderates) I hope you weigh this sermon on occasion, ‘cause it’s a profound lesson in what it means to be a savior. (Pause) (Conversational) Well, who will stand up and help me with uh, the cause now? Who’ll give $20 to help us get the things to save youth. Some got it, hmm? Thank you, Sister Lacy. Thank you. Who else will give? Quickly. Get it over with. This is another death to me. I’d rather people pluck my eyes out, than have to take an offering. (Pause) I don’t like to do it. Thank you. (Pause) Thank you. Everybody stand to your feet and give 20, that can give it right now. Right this quick, right quick. Um-hmm [Yes]. (Pause) That comes back walking anyway, had to guide him back. Had to help him out. But he can get himself back in. That’s beautiful isn’t it.

Congregation: Applause.


Jones: Who else will give 20 very quickly? You think my healings are not real? I got a sister there in the aisle from Los Angeles, she can tell you when the– she had the neck cast on– on Thursday night. I had to be– I had to dare out there to get it off of her, ‘cause I loved her. Also I wanted to set an example of faith, to inspire faith, inspire it in others. You don’t believe– you want to (unintelligible word)– talk to her if you don’t know how real her condition was. Talk to her. It’s gone now. Oh, oh, so beautiful, but it’s so costly. I think people would appreciate it more, if they knew how much I have to put into it. Every healing takes a pound of my flesh. (Long pause) That’s beautiful. Twenty, the last time. We’ve got to have it, folk. (Pause) Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You– I don’t think you probably weigh what we have to get, if you don’t weigh the detection devices we have to get, heat detection, radios, communications. I don’t think you know what it means to be a conscientious father. I don’t mean– I’m not speaking that in a belittling way. I just don’t think you grasp how costly it is to set up an operation to protect the family. (Pause) Archie [Ijames] had to be prepared practically to bring that man on a– a– a stretcher, he was just telling me. He– He was that bad, and they brought him, and their faith paid off, because I just took care of him then.

Voice in Congregation: Yes, yes, yes.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: Fifteen (tape edit) –desperate to save her house but she’s not around here. She didn’t even get back Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. (Pause) (Short laugh) Well, that’s good– I– you make a good wife, Lee Ethel [Young], I’m glad to have you.

Congregation: Scattered applause and laughter.

Jones: Wonderful. (Pause) She said she’s married to me, and I’m glad she is. I’m proud to have her as my wife. (unintelligible word)

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: Marceline [Jones] said I never thought I’d live in– in a harem and enjoy it. But she said, I like some of your wives.

Congregation: Laughs.

Jones: (laughs) Oh, we’re talking about a spiritual relationship, folk. Don’t get worried. Don’t get frustrated. You’re not losing anything. (Laughs) Oh yes, you are. The thing you’re talking about would be losing, but what we’ve got is a high road of holiness.

Congregation: Calls and scattered applause.

Jones: The marriage we talk about is a bed that’s undefiled and glorious. Fifteen again, ten again, ten, ten, can we see several there? That fine young man. I do love to look at you. That’s my one joy. I come and I look at you. And I’ve seen you grow, and I look at that mess outside. That’s what you need to look at. You get disappointed with these people. You better look at that mess outside. You ought to take a walk with our security people over there and listen, and l– listen to that group that has– supposed to be that big brave bunch down the street from us, and watch them right now. (Pause) Then you look at our people, you’ll be happy. You’ll be happy to know them, because they’re the best going. With all their faults, they’re the best there you’ve ever seen.

Voice in Congregation: Amen.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: Now if I can love them, you ought to be able to love them, because they make mistakes that could take the people’s lives. And that’s uh, tremens– tremendous and tragic upset. I can’t get the words to describe how I feel about it. People make mistakes that could cost people’s lives, and I have to go in and save their lives. But I see them. And even the ones that make the mistakes, they’re better than anything outside. Say well, that’s not saying much. Well, let me tell you, if you didn’t have this, you’d be worse off. So they’re not perfect, you be grateful for what you’ve got, because if you were out there, you’d still be worse off yet, wouldn’t you?

Congregation: Calls and applause.

Jones: Go try ‘em a while. Woman that we healed here today of spinal ma– uh, spinal back– uh, spinal problems, she asked her church, good Baptist church over here that we could throw a rock at, that got healed of her spine today. She asked her church to help her get some aspirin. Again, an aspirin – I never heard anything like this – to buy aspirin ‘cause she couldn’t afford it. Her church wouldn’t give her a lickin’ dime. ‘Cause aspirin’s the only thing that’ll stop the pain. That’s what she told me, and the brothers right up here at this altar, that they wouldn’t even give her money, to loan some money to buy some aspirin. You better know what you’ve got here. We’ve got a– We– Most anybody here’ll give you a loan to get some aspirin.

Congregation: Affirmation and scattered applause.

Jones: Ten. Can I get several that’ll rally to ten, because we’re in a real bad state. (Pause) Hmm? Thank you. Pleasure to give it. Ten. The last time. The last time. (Pause) You got it in all those leading ch– churches, say we’ve got to do something about Jim Jones, he’s gonna– he gonna take over America. Now that might be.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: Quickly, quickly, quickly. Know those who labor amongst you. It’s all right. (Pause) Hands clasped. (Pause) No, don’t worry about it. (Short ,laugh) Ho, ho, the old fox is in his seat, honey, you got nothing to worry about. I was on the back of bus 7, I said that none of my people hurt. I was on bus 7, and all they said that the place was burned down, burned down. It’s– fire out of control. I said, none of my people hurt. At about that time, I was leading sweetheart back there, I was leading her through a grill that nobody –couldn’t get a pussycat through.

Congregation: Scattered laughter.

Jones: (laughs) And I’m tellin’ you, right there she’s stands. Leadin’ her through a grill that you couldn’t get some big tomcats through. But she got through. She heard my voice, it said, don’t go. And she didn’t go, and if she ha, all the roof woulda– Oh! I’m so thrilled for that. It’s worth all my pain to see that. ‘Cause that roof could’ve fallen on her, crippled her, burned her alive, slow death. What a terrible way to die. She listened and went back through that window and I said you can, and she did, and she went through the grill. (Laughs).

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: And that fire is teaching us, so we can slither like a snake, if we have to, to get away from these enemies. (Pause) Uh, Don [Ben] Bowers too wants to stay down here, the engineer. Uh– His was right back there where everything burned to pieces. I mean that– that stage burned up till there was nothing left but strings of the piano. ‘Cause your picture was in my room, nothing uh, was burned in my room, including clothing and many thousands of dollars worth of books and biological literature. Thank you, Jim.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: ‘Cause that was just like a chimney [vocalizes chimney draft] Oh, you can look for the piano, all you can find of the piano is the strings. I didn’t even know what to see of the organ. And don’t be foolin’ in that building. Last night I had to get a warning over there, pick up on it, they were sleepin’ in that building. Don’t you sleep in that building on guard duty. That building just being sustained right now by miraculous power, ‘cause there’s nothin’ holdin’ that building together. It’s nothing but an open box, and the wind whistles through it, the roof’s hangin’ and it just [draws out word] sways. So don’t get in that building. I didn’t get you saved out from under to get in there and go to sleep and have it fall in on you.

Congregation: Scattered, delayed applause.

Jones: If it falls, we hope it– we’ll– we’ll meditate that it falls towards the people’s cathedral.

Congregation: Scattered applause.

Jones: Maybe we can give it a push at least a few– few yards. (Pause) No, we’ll– we’re– we’re not worrying about it falling. Peace. Five [dollars]. Four. Stand. Will you do– do that for me. [several tapes edits] so be sure you’re here Sunday morning. You can save that money and all give supportively, but don’t stay home unless you are working. Because if you stay home just to be copping out, you’ll get in worse trouble than we going. And I warn you, because I love you. You’re staying home because of work? That’s one thing. But [if] you stay home to keep out of responsibility, you’ll get responsibility in spite of yourself. (Pause) It’s safer on the back of our buses than it is staying in your house watching TV, when you know to do better and don’t do it. Sure is. Been proven, we can take these buses all over this cotton-pickin’ country. Touch ‘em, spit on ‘em, put a picture on ‘em, speak the word to them. Go across se– several states with no window and no mirror and no windshield? Ha, ha, my my. You’re safer in our buses than you are safe in sitting on your davenport. Somebody gone come in and thump your head, put a knot under your wig.

Congregation: Laughter.

Jones: I’m not gone tell on somebody but I just look at– One of our sisters stayed home, and she said I wish I’da been– said you tell us about getting in Gulfport, Mississippi and having showers available to you and eatin’ in a park. We had ‘em if we wanted to use them. And she said (Laughs)– she said, I’m sitting in my house and they come, I’ve got a gu– (Laughs) Said, they come to rob me, and I thought I should go, but I was afraid to go through the South, and she said, not only did my dog not protect me, they stole my dog too. (laughs)

Congregation: Laughter.

Jones: (laughs) They stole her silverware and stole her kitchen and stole her dog too. Said that dog didn’t even bark. She settin’ in San Francisco worrying about us going through Mississippi. (laughs) She can tell on herself [if] she wants to, I’m not gonna tell on her. (Pause) It’s true, though. It– it really is. You try to avoid trouble and you’ll get trouble. (clears throat) Just be daring– just be daring, fearless, launch out into the deep. Let the shore line go. Very well. Two dollars, the last time I shall mention it. I am– (tape edit) I’m going have a heaviness in my chest like I had because of it, because some of you were bringing trouble on you. Well, I mentioned it the last time. You don’t believe me, then try– try it out. I can only give you the road signs. I can give you the map, and if you don’t want to follow it, get on your detour and see where it leads you. Ten [dollars]. (Pause) (clears throat). That feels better. That feels better. Nurse. (Tape edit) They’re standing there. When they came up and set up, her hus– her son was laying there dying in the hospital. That’s the way they come with the message to me. Cut up in a hospital. And I said, I will not remember that– several– just a few Sunday nights ago. And I called her up and I said, I won’t tell her. I prophesied according to my measure of faith, I said I will not tell her. It cannot be, and I wouldn’t let it be, and I went down, and the man said I’ve come to get her and she must be taken to hospital. I said we’re gonna call, and when I called just that time, they were letting him out of the hospital. That’s a great miracle. (Calls out) God.

Voices in congregation: Yeah. All Right.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: (Calls out) Don’t you forget it, because that’s one of the miracles that my atmosphere, that my energy field, that my strategy has brought about. ‘Cause just sure as the world he’d a been in trouble. (Pause) (Moderates) But I have to close this somewhere. One [dollar]. No, I don’t hate to close it because I’m not gonna get the money for this cause. I hate to do it because I know it’s a test. But how long can you just keep fighting with people to get them to understand you. One [dollar], how many will give one dollar. One [dollar]. One [dollar]. (Clears throat) Give an immediate therapy for the stroke prevention. One dollar. One dollar. (Pause) I can (several tape edits) And we will do this one more time on the Temple. This is membership now. Some said they want to change and there’ve been several that come up to different workers and said they want to change their vote. So we will again go over this vote matter. (Pause) Now there’re various alternatives I can think of. (Clears throat) (Pause) And that’s to buy the church next to the one we have, although there’s some problem there. There’s some water, we understand, we have to check that out, that comes in the wintertime because it’s a subfloor is lower than the street. And they don’t have the heating uh, system that we had over where we are. I mean the wa– hot water heating systems. They have some things that are very sound. It’s built like the proverbial brick outhouse. The frame, its– its drop– what do they call it– well, what do they call it– what do they call “drop” uh, they just– they just perfectly girded everywhere, steel girders to the top of that dome. Even the lights are fixed in a very extraordinary way. You can pull ‘em out and– from the top of the attic. The attic could make a whole big– Well, it’s as big as this room here. Could be made into apartments, I suppose, somewhere. I think that would be a little– You’d have to look at the support, but it’s really built. They’re maybe factors there from the lower– the low floor. Biggest factor is our neighbors and their paranoia. That’s the thing that bothers me about it, for you. I don’t care. I like a good uh, confrontation any day. But some of you need to think that through. Now we need to think this through tonight before we finish here with the healing service. We need to think this through seriously.

Voice in Congregation: Father?

Jones: Yeah.

Voice in Congregation: (too soft) (tape edit)

Jones: What did you say, honey? Well, we’re not– we’re not look– (tape edit) after you look certainly, that’s uh– (clears throat) we want to do– we want to consider about– a building from the standpoint if nothing else than just the resale of it, because if we go to tear it down, it’s naturally uh– The lot now is not as valuable as it would be with a building on it, it would seem to me. (tape edit) Every aspect of the building that would make value. The thing could be built to be a warehouse and can sell– we can sell it, and move some other area. We want to look at every alternative. I uh, think that uh, we’re not seeking beauty per se. We do want practicality. We’ve got to have some space, we’ve got to have the facilities, and I want better exits than we ever had before. I never did like the exits set up on that thing. This place is for somebody to fry, and I want to– I want a much better exit system than we had. But get me the rundown on what it will cost to uh– to replace it. Now as far as a worship center, we’ve had more attendance here today in this building, ‘cause it’s a large building. We’ve had more attendance here than we had over there. I don’t know whether it’s a parking factor, just the newness? We’ll see in a c– in another weekend or so, but we filled this Temple this– this morning. And we used to have to come here once a month to do that. [If] We came more than that, we wouldn’t fill it. And we’ve been here three days in a row and practically filled it each night, but we filled it to capacity this morning with people standing. And not the old day when we had half of them not our members but just tramping through, so we can get by as far as an auditorium space here. (Clears throat) We need a place for a work center. We need a place for our secretarial work. We need a place for lodging. But we’re not immediately pressed to go jumping into quick decisions for worship centers. Do you think?

Voices in Congregation: No.

Jones: How many find this suitable at least?

Voices in Congregation: (too soft)

Jones: The only thing I’m (stumbles over words) insist when the uh– October comes, and November and it gets cooler, is that you have to have a heating engineer. That don’t work, and then that’s expensive. You gotta have heat in this place. Older people don’t uh– It– It did very well when there was heat in here. Ask John what that adds to it when we have heat in this place. He’s back there now. ‘Cause we’ve been bargaining and got some very considerate custodian, and we’ll do all we can to help him too. (clears throat). But actually it’s a fact now – it’s sad to say – where people waste and– uh, and put stuff down the toilets over there, use electricity, stop up our sewage. We can be here cheaper than we can be there. And have a parking lot, under surveil– under secure valiance s– under s– absolute security. Do you hear what I’m saying? It’s a fact. People waste. The upkeep of a building is nothing– no small item. Now I think people have a tradition of needing a building. [I] Think we do have to have our building. We have to have some center here, but what do we want with that center? What are we seeking in a center? (clears throat) You want to think over these things now, you see. We have to house those people there that were living in communal. We want that to continue and we’d like to see it expand, ‘cause that’s the perfect life. Not the perfect life for endurance, you gotta pay a price of sacrifice, but that’s the perfect goal we should aim for. (Pause) But there are bad factors about that neighborhood. One fact is that they’re gonna– they’ve given up– they’ve– they’ve given up on the zoning there. They thought they were gonna put a commercial center, but we’ve gotten through some reasonable (clears throat) high level uh, information. I don’t think I can say any more than that, but if they’re gonna put right behind us a 15-floor low cost cheap housing. And you know what that’s gonna mean (unintelligible word). They’re gonna throw their beer cans out on our t– on our roof or whatever. (Pause) That’s what it seems to me, that they’ll be 15 floors of cheap housing going up behind us. The thing that was promised by the city is not gonna get done. There was gonna– It was supposed to be a commercial center. But the Japanese Culture Center is losing money by leaps and bounds, losing it by the barrel loads. The only– the only reason the Japanese Culture Center is continuing? The nation of Japan is feeding money in it to keep it going. It’s true. It’s losing money, and would– they would go out of business if it wasn’t for Japan. Japan has to send money over here to keep that Japanese Culture Center going. That’s how bad that neighborhood is–

End of Side 1

Side 2

Jones: –it going. That’s how bad that neighborhood is, (Clears throat) as far as economics are concerned. It’s just the out picturing of the– the society that doesn’t believe in proper distribution of its wealth, just vicious capitalism, big business. They don’t want any black business there. So that promised black commercial supermarket and so forth and complex, uh, what do they call uh, uh, I’m not saying, supermarket uh, shopping center, it seems to be tabled, so you need to know all that’s there. Now it’s gonna be a while before they get ‘em, but they’re already tearing out the houses. And the way the city does things, I tell you, it’s just pitiful. They tore out all the fencing behind the lot. Big steel fences, and they just tore it down with a bulldozer. Haven’t got a bit of sense. People don’t care about anything, ‘cause that’s the way it is in this society. We don’t have cooperation, we got competition. Did you look at the f– the yard, the field behind us? Those bulldozers came in there and tore down a house and literally tore up that beautiful steel fence, just gnarled it up. Look and see.

Voice in Congregation: That’s right.

Jones: Look out over the back of us. It’s a depressed area. (Pause) Sickest place I suppose in San Francisco. (Clears throat) But that doesn’t bother me, that’s where we’re needed, but one thing does bother me is a bunch of fools that run around over there.

Voice in Congregation: That’s right.

Jones: Can’t get them to speak to you, can’t get any cooperation. They’re scared to death like a bunch of scared rabbits runnin’. And uh– even suggested (unintelligible word) we gonna be careful, we– I have a confrontation out here in the street. I’m tired of fighting with– it’s (emphatic) a sad day when you got to think about fighting brothers.

Voice in Congregation: That’s right.

Jones: I’m not worried about fighting brothers, ‘cause we ever fight, honey we’ll– we’ll– we’ll come out, but I don’t want anybody hurt.

Voice in Congregation: That’s right.


Jones: ‘Cause there’s not– It’s not the leader some of– one of the leaders has been very, very hospitable, other than he’s really concerned that he won’t get burned down. But I mean we tried to talk to some of those people, and there’s no talking. They’re like the Ku Klux Klan, they won’t talk. They got their fill with hate. They think they’re better than other people waiting– Oh well, I don’t want to go into that. (clears throat) Enough has been said. Now of course, wherever you go, you got some problems, but it would be nice if we– we wouldn’t have to worry in some areas as much. That’s one thing I like about here, you don’t get mugged. We can take our people to and from. You can get in here easier, you can come– That gate there could be open on Geary, and you can come right in through here. You can come right through that gate, or you can drive in here. Your car’s certainly not gonna be bothered in here, because we can watch them. Which we don’t have over there. And we got to talk some business here for just a little bit. It’s 9:30, and we got to talk some business. We’ve got to think this thing through. Now I can make a decision for you, but you should enter into decisions, so that we can begin to produce the leadership that needs to succeed me and go out into other churches and build this kingdom of God, this apostolic socialism all over the earth. (tape edit) Yes, dear.

Voice in Congregation: (too soft)

Jones: 75,000 dollars, which would’ve been doubled if people had listened to me.

Woman: What about– (Jones Interrupts)

Jones: 75,000– I want to say this before I– uh– We have 75,000 dollars coming. That’s on the building. We have 15,000 dollars in personal property, which is ridiculous. But it’s 90,000, which [is] typical of churches. Some have even much less. We got 90,000 dollars coming out of the building. We paid 119[000] for it, but the land under it supposedly is worth 80,000. That’s a question though. And that means the buildings have to be gone, and of course that’s a long-range plan. And may– BART [Bay Area Rapid Transit] may come along. We’ve also been doing a lot of looking. I’ve been doing a lot of sleuthing, BART may come along and go right through there. If that goes through there, then– then that lot would be valuable to us. And if it goes through there, everything’s got to be torn down there. But there’s a lot of ifs, and I bet it’ll be ten years before we get it done.

Woman: What about old the Clinton cafeteria? It has a ki– kitchen to eat downstairs. (unintelligible under jones)

Jones: Where’s that at?

Woman: It’s at– on Market Street near Seventh. It has quite a number of floors for apartments or whatnot. You could park underneath or on top of it.

Jones: Where’s that at?

Woman: It’s on Market Street near Seventh. It would be a– an ambitious uh, thing to take on and I’m– I haven’t seen the upstairs, it– it might be impossible, but it’s something to– to look into.

Jones: Market and Seventh’s a rugged area?

Woman: In a way, yes– (Jones interrupts).

Jones: No, I don’t– I don’t want it–

Woman: – It’s no worse than this–

Jones: It’s– it’s– it’s– it’s not as rugged as where we’re at.

Woman: Well, it’s– it’s– in a way, except that on Sundays, uh, being a business area, Sunday, it’s very quiet. It’s uh–

Jones: Yeah, I know.

Woman and Jones talk over each other

Jones: I think the chances of arson down there is much less likely, and you’re closer– They– they don’t want the downtown of their cities burned down, they’ll get there faster.

Woman: It’s uh– it’s right near the Greyhound depot. It’s a–

Jones: I don’t seem to have that in my mind. I can’t place it in my mind–

Woman: Well, as I say it’s a– it’s a– it’s an ambitious project, but it’s a thought.

Jones: Terribly expensive property, I imagine.

Congregation: Stirs.

Jones: Well, it’s a– it’s a– it’s– that’s what we want, is your– your recommendations. We’ll look into it tomorrow. We’re looking in things. (Pause) Well, some have suggested we could go outside of San Francisco across the bridge (clears throat) and get some acres and build a project which would be more secure. But in San Francisco with our church here, we have more political strength, and that’s important. You’ve got the backing of some people. If we build outside of the city, we don’t have that backing. I mean there’s not much value having the mayor of Sarasota, whatever that– whatever that crazy– Sausalito. I don’t know what good that’d be (laughs) to have a mayor of Sausalito behind us. (Pause) (unintelligible word) I’ll heat it– Well, that’s all right. We can handle that. Yes, sir. We want you to come for– This is business and we want you to involve yourself tonight. (Pause)

Man: Uh, Jim?

Jones: Yes.

Man: You own the property there, right?

Jones: We do, lock, stock and barrel. Let’s burn–

Man: Head down, build it back, and run ‘em out.

Jones: What’s that?

Man: Head down–


(Man and Jones crosstalk)

Jones: Uh, it’s a policy that the worker holds it, hon. Would you let her do that? Thank you. (clears throat)

Man: Head down and– and build it back. Run them out.

Jones: Run who out?

Man: They don’t want to co– cooperate with you? Stay. Don’t move.

Jones: I– uh, it’s all right, but when you start running, when you talk about running out, you gonna have a fight.

Congregation: Laughter.

Man: Fight. I been fighting for three years.

Jones: Well, I like to fight when it’s got some sense, you know. I like to fight the honkey. I like to fight Mickey Mouse, I like to fight the rich. And I never have seen much sense in fighting amongst black people. I never thought there was much sense to that.

Congregation: Scattered applause.

Jones: But I– I– I appreciate what you’re saying. I never– I’ve always figured the way you deal with people who got a Ku Klux Klan mentality, is to leave them alone or prepare to get uh– to have to kill ‘em all. Now that’s what I found with the Klu Klux Klan. You understand what I’m talking about? People who are filled with race hate, you don’t– you don’t convert them. It finally comes to blow by blow. And I’ve seen hate in the Ku Klux Klan, but we converted them along the South. But some of these folks, I never saw anything like it. I think there’s more hate even in some of the black groups now, more unreasonable hate.

Voices in Congregation: That’s right.

Jones: And it’s– it’s really– really uh, a– a sad thing. I think we should hate the system. And I think we should hate the oppressor. And I think we should hate the man that has taken advantage of us, but when we get– when we call somebody, like sister that I had to run down there and run up in that church and straighten out, when we call a– a light-complected black sister a yellow bitch and knock down a camera and stomp on it, boy, I mean that’s insanity. There no use to look at it any other way. It’s just insanity.

Congregation: Scattered applause.

Jones: There’s a fight on the front of those parking spaces all the time. Have to fight all the time, to keep your parking spaces free. It’s a runnin’ battle, and the man, as I say, next door got his– he got– he nearly got his brains beat out. But I– I try to bring peace there, I try to bring peace. But there’s some trouble brewing over that. He’s going to the grand jury. The leader of the church next door that was beat half to death. He said he’s gonna get– he’s gonna get an exposure to that if he has to go to the grand jury. He couldn’t get anybody to come to do anything about it, so he’s going– he’s getting one police inspector that’s interested in it and– I tried to bring peace. And they said, well, he was– he said something to one of our sisters. I went down to talk to him about that. I warned them, but there was no apologies made, but he was beat with a claw hammer until he was half dead. Now we saw it.

Voices in Congregation: That’s right. That’s right.

Jones: (short laugh) We– Yeah, we did see it.

Voice in Congregation: (too soft)

Jones: They– they ought to know we’re uh– their friends ‘cause we could’ve been really difficult. I told my sisters to– well, not get involved. I didn’t want to bring any harm to them. I don’t like to see black people get (unintelligible word). But he said yesterday that he’s got a– he’s gonna get a grand jury hearing. Maybe that’ll uh– come– but I– I don’t like to get in these kinds of s– squabbles for your sake. (clears throat) Some of our people right in the middle of that squabble too. ‘Cause some of the people witnessed him being beat up– beat half to death. He was beat, so two of my sisters say, without provocation. I’ve tried to keep them out of it, but if worse came to worse and they go subpoenaing witnesses, those sisters’ll be there. They said he was beat with a claw hammer till he was practically dead. In broad daylight. (Pause) Now I think it’s safer in Redwood Valley than that.

Congregation: Stirs, then applause.

Jones: Now I’m not saying we’re not gonna do something in San Francisco, ‘cause we are. We’re not gonna be run out of here. But I mean, we’ve got rednecks up there, but I’ve never seen whites that’s uh– that we couldn’t uh– get some place to back them off. (Pause) And they call themselves black capitalist, acting like that. I don’t know. I don’t know–

Voice in Congregation: Black Brothers.

Jones: Hmm?

Voice in Congregation: Black Brothers.

Jones: What’s that?

Man 2: I been called Black Brothers for three years. I been called Black Brothers for three years.

Jones: What’s that mean?

Man 2: From all of these fellas around in the neighborhood. I got a feasibility study. All you have to do is take a feasibility study of the neighborhood. Go out and have them to come in and– and get something done. Let them do it for you. They call you–

Jones: Now explain yourself. You’re using a little uh, semantics, so people wouldn’t understand, hon.

Man 2: Well, I have some paperwork here, Jim, a lot of it and I can show you on paper.

Jones: To what?

Man2: What the area is–

Jones: Well, what is it?

Man 2: A feasibility study.

Jones: Well, go ahead what– what– what did you– what did you uh– Where is the attorneys out here? Let’s look at what he’s got there. (voice rises) The attorneys, where are these attorneys? (Pause) Last time I saw Tim [Stoen], he was having a joyous time up there praising, and I appreciated it. (Pause) Oh, they’re taking down that uh, that story for the newspaper. Gene [Eugene Chaikin]? Gene? Can you get up here and somebody go with this feasibility thing, ‘cause we’re getting all kinds of reports on what’s going on, and we need to hear. This man, he’s done a feasibility study. Can you get up here, uh, Gene? Gene? You won’t be able to get it down there on a seat, honey. It won’t come to you by the Spirit.

Congregation: Laughter.


Jones: He’s a good sport. (Pause) Yes? (Clears throat)

Woman 2: Uh– It’s my– It’s my opinion, I was very hasty on my vote. You know, it’s very easy when we say, okay, let’s go fight, you know, ‘cause we’re a bunch of–

Jones: Particularly it’s easy for you, ‘cause you live in Redwood Valley.

Congregation: Laughter and applause

Woman 2: (laughs) Right, I know it–

Jones: (laughs) I’m just being funny.

Woman 2: That is beautiful.

Jones: You’re not a coward, I know you’re not.

Woman 2: That is true, though. You know, it’s easy for us in Redwood Valley to say that, because we’re not living down here in the ghettoes and in the poor situation–

Jones: Yeah, we’re only here on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays.

Woman 2: Right. And then also a lot of these mothers here in the ghettoes, you know, they’re old, you know, I’m sure they’ll throw their pots and pans. But when it gets right down to it– it is Jim Jones that does the fighting and uh–

Jones: It was me that run up in that Muslim temple, I know.

Congregation: Calls and applause.

Woman 2: And you know it’s true that we are– The day will come when we’ll have to fight. And we– and right now we have to stand brave. But I think the object of this ministry is also to be peaceful and to love to learn our– to love our neighbor, and it’s not easy.

Jones: I think something– You bring up some points if you don’t mind me interject. Now I think that we could possibly have a healthy respect for each other, if we weren’t so close, but they’re threatened by our side. They were threatened, that we had 200 people out there guarding our building. Oh, they– they– the leaders said our peop– He wasn’t– but he said you’ve got 200 of your people out there, and they’re organized, and it’s causing us paranoia on a part of our people, and we could have a confrontation. He’s been very kind, one of the– the captains. I don’t know, the one leader I never see him, Muhammad. I don’t see him. I saw him one time. He (stumbles over words)– he must be out riding his Rolls-Royce. I haven’t seen him.

Congregation: Subdued laughter.

Jones: But (clears throat) I’m talking about the captain that carries on the responsibilities of the work. But this thing– this kind of talk– I mean how– how can we be threatening, watching our own property. So we got 200 people. We didn’t have that many, but they’re threatened because we got the same little thing they’ve got now. They’ve had those little [walkie-] talkies for a long while. Now we’ve got talkies because we need them. We didn’t get talkies ‘cause they had them, or we woulda got ‘em long time ago. We seen them run up and down with their talkies. But we’ve got them, because we now know, we need them.

Voice in Congregation: That’s right.

Jones: And I’d said we needed them, and now we’ve got around to getting’ them– getting them. So– Uh, but it’s just strange. The one– one of the assistants there said, we talked about dogs. He said, yeah, I know where to get the dog. And the other said, hush. That’s what he said. One leader, one top leader started to tell us. He’s very friendly to us, assistant to the captain, but he started to tell us where to get dogs, and they said hush, I mean, don’t talk. And they be talking to us on the street, they’re really weird.

Woman 2: I know.

Jones: I be– I’d go up– I’d go up personally, way with my guards, I was to show them no fear ‘cause they seem to be scared to death. I’d walk up by myself, and my people didn’t want me to do it, but I’d go clear up and I’d walk with them and I’d break down a little bit of it. But then along somebody come in a car, and they’d have to– they’d have to leave. They’d– they’d– they’d beg my forgiveness and they’d have to go, just like that. They couldn’t talk to me anymore. Like I was gonna be able to convert them or take them away or something. I wasn’t trying to convert anybody, just trying to communicate, but I mean, these people are difficult to communicate with.

Congregation: Stirs.

Jones: Now wake up, folk, ‘cause I’ve been through it yesterday. I spent all day yesterday trying to communicate with those folk. And you can get some place with an individual member, but somebody tells them to get away from us because I think– I think it boils down to that they’re threatened by our size. (Clears throat) Hmm?

Congregation: Stirs.

Jones: They do– What’s that? Well, it’s obvious when they– the sister I raised from the dead. Where’s our sister? Where’s our sister that I– Sister Lewis. Huh? Now, look at Sister Lewis. Now that’s the one they called a yellow bitch, right in the street. And that’s when I– that’s what caused me to run up in the Temple. Now they called her a yellow bitch, come walking down, and that shows you. (Puase) Well, they called her a yellow bitch nonetheless. (Pause) I don’t care what the– Man, it’s still that the– it shows a color consciousness. Why didn’t they just call her a people– a dirty People Temples member. They called her a yellow bitch.

Voices in Congregation: (too low)

Man 3: That’s true. They try to get every one of our members to come over to their Temple. They’re tel–

Jones: Well now– nobody’s gonna go over there. I– I’m not trying to get them converted, but none of us are fools enough to believe what they believe. They believe a spaceship’s gonna come down and take them up.

Man: Right. Every– every–

Voices: Laughs.

Jones: They believe that 20 percent of them’s gonna rule the 80 percent. And they– uh, they don’t have any sense of socialistic principle. It’s uh– everybody trying to get little bit more and have the highest dog and dress the better. They– they don’t have any concept. None of our people gonna go for that. If we did, I’d join it.

Man 3: Right.

Jones: I– I’d be glad. I’ll support them if they get in a fight. If they’re being abused, I’ll stand up for them, but I don’t believe no spaceship’s gonna lower and get anybody. That sounds like Jesus doctrine again, warmed over.

Man 3: It’s uh– It’s part of their custom of– if you won’t buy their paper, they’ll give you this, the one finger, or call you a name, and they have whole lot of– whole lot of our black sisters and brothers that are lighter than what our sister there that they called a name, that are members of their organization.

Jones: Well, I would love to cooperate with them, but I say, uh, you know, in terms of working for justice, but this idea of women can’t go in the Temple when they’re menstruating. Uh, men are awfully insecure to have that kind of a doctrine. Or the women have to follow you and all this kind of thing and all that garb. Uh, you almost stumble over all that garb, they got– I saw one little child had so much garb clear down around their feet that she couldn’t hardly walk. I– I– I don’t uh– That’s all right, that’s their bag, then– then I’ll defend their bag. And I’ll defend their right, but I’m not gonna join it, because I see them with– them out there with Rolls-Royces, and that’s just the old white system all over again.

Voice in Congregation: Amen.

Jones: The leaders with their Rolls-Royces. I don’t want to get into anything where leaders have got Rolls-Royce’s. I’m not interested in that. Why, even the Baptist have only Cadillacs. Said the Baptist preacher’s only got a Cadillac, but a Rolls-Royce– they got a Rolls-Royce for their leader with a closed– with a close circuit TV in it.

Voice in Congregation: That’s right.

Jones: That thing’s worth $40,000. I’m not gonna join that mess. Now they better leave me alone. I’m not joining that mess. And I– I– I’m not trying to get any of them to join here. That I– I’m not wanting any of ‘em. ‘Cause somebody’s teaching them to hate, and I don’t like blind hate.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: I believe in hating evil, and I believe in fighting people when they’re doing something to you. But I do not believe in hating people because of the color of their skin. I– I fought that in the Ku Klux Klan, I burned my own relatives’ Ku Klux Klan clothes. I burned them up when I was only six years of age. I set fire to them, and by God, I didn’t come to San Francisco to get the same kind of thing dressed up and called Black Muslims.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: Hates hate. Judge people on the basis of their– the merit of their own works. Look at that precious white woman sitting back there in that back row. She’s been the most generous to give us money to get food for Biafra and to help our works. That white woman back there, that Irish lady in the white (unintelligible word). Like Jane Mutschmann and all these white workers. Some of the white workers work so very, very hard, they’ve become black in consciousness. They fight for freedom. Our Mexican people and our Indians. I cannot buy that and I won’t buy it. I will not buy it. I will die before I buy it.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: I know how hard it is to get people uh, converted. We know how many whites are honkeys and how they behave. But as long as there’s one honkey in a thousand that acts right, I’ll give him a chance. I’m not gonna judge everybody by the color of their skin.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: But I– there– I can over– I can hurdle that, ‘cause all of us are mixed anyway. And there, as you say, Reverend Williams, (stumbles over words) they got some light. I saw a woman go in there yesterday that was so light she looked white. They do have them going in there. But the thing I can’t hurdle is the Rolls-Royces and this thing, the upper 20. I don’t understand all of their doctrine, but I know they got an upper 20, they’re working to be in the upper 20 that’ll rule over the 80. I don’t want none of that business. That’s old capitalism. Progressive paper called them– Progressive paper– Labor Party call them black capitalist. And I think they do teach that. And I don’t think that’s the answer. I think we need uh– Nobody gonna get to be black capitalist. Capitalists that are now uh, in power are gonna stay in power, and nobody’s gonna give any of that power to the black or the Mexicans, and you just crazy to think it. There’s gonna have to be some control on wealth. I’m not suggesting communism in that scale, or any other governmental plan or bureaucracy, I’m afraid of s– all these would-be radical leaders today, they don’t have a dedication, they just talk socialism, they just talk uh, change. I– I want to do it within their own– our own framework for the time being. I trust us. I really don’t trust leaders outside. ‘Cause I’ve tried and I’ve seen nothing but a– just a lot of hot air, but I do say that we’ll not gonna be able to unite with people who openly promote the system that’s hurt us. No use to turn the thing around and have the same black system that’s been so ugly when the whites have been doing it. Just because blacks start doing it, don’t make it any nicer.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: What I’m saying is, big business has been evil. Big business has started wars. That young man [likely Tim Carter], we talked to him after the meeting. The horror of Vietnam. He told us – he’s over there – how they bombed these people, get these Vietnamese, even our own allies in South Vietnam, get them in shelters and bombed them, burned them to death. Roll over ‘em with tanks. Big business has been murder all over this country, and it’s been murder when white men were doing it, and I don’t want to turn around and make big business for black people– I want to get the– rid of this big monopoly capitalism, this terrible warmongering uh, big business system, that I want to see rid of. I don’t want to see it turned around, because a black man with money– the love of money will be just as mean and nasty as a white man with it.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: (Clears throat) All right, I’ve said enough on that subject.

Woman 3: I wanted to say, you know, like– the Temple that burned was a very pretty Temple, but this is a useful Temple. We– or– this is a useful– well, it is our Temple when we’re here and we spent– we spent a long time in this uh, auditorium, and there were many great healings here. The dead were raised here–

Jones: Nah, you made your point honey.

Woman 3: And– and– okay– and Father–

Jones: And I– I hear you saying, you want to stay in this– this church, is that what you’re saying?

Woman 3: Yes–

Jones: Becau– Because we don’t have time to talk all– all night on that subject.

Woman 3: Okay.

Jones: Uh, uh, it has spoken I think in the last three days that uh, you– what you’re saying. I’m not– I just don’t– don’t dare get (unintelligible) of too many preaching, because we won’t ever get a decision here tonight.

Woman 3: Sorry. Sorry. Okay, can we mention the– can we mention the apartments that you mentioned, Father, again, like you mentioned that the land that maybe the mayor suggested cheap and–

Jones: Well, the mayor suggested some land that we will get. But that’s right in the middle of same ghetto over there. (Pause) And the way we do things, I mean, I don’t– I don’t like dirt and filth. I don’t like dirt and filth, and I know the system makes that dirt and filth. But what I have, we’d have to have the nicest and the cleanest and the best with landscaping. And I think we put up a spot like that in the midst of that? Then everybody else will be threatened, they’ll be throwing rocks at us, ‘cause you’ll either have to take them in or they’ll destroy what we got. And we– and people don’t seem to want to join us, and so we’re gonna build something nice. We’re gonna have to go out in an area where– where it can be done, because you’re sure not going to build the kind of thing I like to do in the midst of that section, ‘cause people, they just– it’s just a dog-eat-dog thing in these poor neighborhoods, black, white, or brown, that’s the way it is. Just as soon throw a rock through you. Look at this schools. Look at those windows out there. (Pause) Just look at them. They got us defeated, got us defeated. So we just tear down our own things. They wor– they work it so that we’ll tear down our own win– just look out there, a big beautiful window, just nothing in here. Works. They broke that piano there, they had to lock up the piano. There’s resentment, hostility, and we’re killing ourselves, but if we build something nice like we like it, like we have in Redwood Valley, we put it in that ghetto, it’ll be turned, they’ll– they’ll be throwing rocks at us because they’ll be threatened. And I’ll tell you something be doing it. Be organizers– be these jacklegs because they don’t do anything but rob their people, and they’ll be threatened, ‘cause we got something right under their nose.

Congregation: That’s right.

Jones: Look at their dungeon. Look at their old dirty churches these preachers have got. All they care is that nice shiny Cadillac, but their church dirty stinking. I was over there on Sutter Avenue to get that woman yesterday. Stinking. Smelled like a slop pen. He’s the head of the– You know who I’m talking about. They don’t even clean their own buildings, ‘cause those preachers only interested in getting’ the money out of it and the heck with the people. And of course, as I say, what incentive there is? If you’re living right next to everything’s dilapidated. They’ve torn down this whole neighborhood. They call it redevelopment. All I can see, it’s redestruction.

Voice in Congregation: Amen.

Jones: It’s all looks to me like they’ve done to Fillmore is just tear, tear down, tear down, tear down. And they burned out (unintelligible name, sounds like “Waypack”) right around the corner from us. That was arson. They’ve burned down every– every agency’s that tried to do something for the community, they burn them down. There’s 59 fires this mon– month unsolved. Now I– I think too much of you– We’ve offered a way of escape, and I’m not gonna have to be uh, policeman uh, to look after you people. I don’t want to do this. We can, but I know places we can go. We don’t have to work that hard to keep ourselves from getting burned down.

Congregation: Applause.

Jones: You notice they’re not burning Grace Cathedral down on Nob Hill. So we’ll just have to– have to take those things in consideration. And I think we can secure this. I don’t like– I don’t mind the neighborhood, but I want something we can secure. Where our cars are under our nose, ‘cause this a mean, mean generation. That’s why I like this particular spot. We can control things. Our children can play in fenced areas. We could even leave them out there. They were gonna cut one of our children right in that park one day. One of our young men, Mutschmann w– couldn’t get in that park. They put a knife to him, took $140 dollars off of him. Two white sisters walked up to that door, and somebody didn’t open the door in time – at our Temple door – and they mugged them right out in front of our Temple. Don’t talk to me about it, it’s mean. Surely you know it’s mean, honey.

Voices in Congregation: Yeah.

Jones: I agree that there’s streets in this town that you can’t be– that’s why I say– I’m not just hitting the neighborhood. Here’s a nice spot with a friendly school thus far. That’s why I want to be sure we don’t move till we know where we’re going. Because we do have things under control here. The thing that security needs to do is just to go through and to see that there’s no dynamite bomb planted. Although I’m– I’m not worried about that immediately. I’m not worried about that. They haven’t go that to that degree– our enemies haven’t gotten that degree. They’re fighting with gasoline, ‘cause they can’t afford anything else. But (clears throat) uh, that’s– that– that would be easily done in any church. They want to set a bomb off, they can do it anywhere. I think so, but uh– that isn’t a fact that I really consider. I’m just looking down the road ‘cause this country’s gone crazy. That’s why I don’t like invest in it too much.

End of tape.