Serial 1305-5

[Editor’s note: Many of the FBI interviews summarized in the FD-302s of the RYMUR investigation deleted the verb following the deleted name of the interview subject; most oftentimes, that word was “advised,” and the word has accordingly been supplied.]


Federal Bureau of Investigation

Date of transcription 12/18/78

[Name deleted] was interviewed on Wednesday, December 8, 1978, at John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFKIA), by Special Agents (SAs) [2 names deleted] and Secret Service Agent [name deleted].

[Name deleted] [advised] he was born [date and location deleted]. He left [location deleted] at the age of four and later returned to attend school. He stated that he joined the Army in August, 1975, after having completed the 11th grade at [location deleted]. He received a general discharge from the Army after 10 months, 29 days; went to Memphis, Tennessee and then back to [location deleted] where he remained from January, 1977 until May, 1977.

[Name deleted] [advised] he left [location deleted] for San Francisco at the persuasion of his grandmother, who had joined the People’s Temple (henceforth referred to as PT or Temple) in 1972. She, [name deleted] had described the PT as a racially harmonious body wherein he could learn a trade and earn a lot of money. [Name deleted] [advised] after arriving in San Francisco, he attended the temple several times and joined in June, 1977.

[Name deleted] [advised] he, along with 30 other PT members, left San Francisco for Guyana in August, 1977, via a bus to New York (NY). In NY they boarded a plane for Georgetown via Caruso [Curacao] and Port of Spain. After arriving in Georgetown, they went through immigration and then to Lamara [Lamaha] Gardens at 41 Dennis Street. He stated that he and approximately 160 other predominantly new members later left Georgetown for Jonestown aboard the Cudjoe, piloted by Tim Sweeney [Swinney] and Philipe [Philip] Blakey.

[Name deleted] [advised] after arriving in Jonestown, the new members were briefed and given work assignments. [Name deleted] [advised] his first assignment was as a field hand but, since he did not like field work, asked for a change of assignment. He stated that he was asked to take [3 lines deleted]. The persons [Name deleted] [advised] on security team during this time were:

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Tim Jones, Jimmie [Jimmy] Jones, Jr., Stephen [Stephan] Jones, Chuck Biekman, Bruce Oliver (deceased), Darell Devers {deceased), Al Simon (deceased) and Johnny Cobb.

[Line deleted] used a .22 rifle, & .308 rifle and a 12gauge Remington automatic shotgun. He stated that he also observed approximately 24 handguns (.22’s, .38’s and .45’s), seven shotguns, eight rifles and a large quantity of ammunition. He further stated that he was told that two of the shotguns were licensed to him and another individual by the Guyanese Government for hunting purposes.

[Name deleted] [advised] whereas he does not know of any firearm training received by PT members, he is aware of the fact that the guns were shot in the bushes on a monthly basis for test purposes. He also stated that on one occasion, at a meeting, Jim Jones shot a flare gun into a tub of gasoline and said that it was a new bomb.

[Name deleted] [advised] after arriving in Guyana, he found that it was not what he thought it would be. He stated that his primary purpose was to make money, however, he was not doing so and he did not like the idea of his grandmother giving her Social Security check to Jim Jones.

[Name deleted] [advised] the first white night was held after his arrival in September, 1977. Jim Jones called everyone to the pavilion and told him that the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) had taken over Guyana and that the surrounding areas were filled with mercenaries. Jones also stated, for the first time, that if anything happened, everyone would commit suicide. Finally after six days of alert, Jones told them that Fred Wills, a member of the Guyanese Parliament, has taken care of everything in Georgetown and in the states.

[Name deleted] [advised] all of the white nights were held during the rainy season: the first, as aforestated, in September, 1977, the others in February, March and July, 1978.

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[Name deleted] [advised] the members of the Inner Core of the Planning Commission were: Tish Leroy (deceased), John Jones, Jr., Gene Chackier [Chaikin] (deceased), Jack Beam (deceased), Charlie Touchette (in Barbados), Albert Touchette (deceased son of former), Lee Ingram (Georgetown), Joyce Touchette (deceased wife of Charlie) and Richard Janiero [Janaro].

[Name deleted] [advised] the people who Jones trusted and could be considered extremely dangerous if they are alive and in the United States (US) are: Stephen [Stephan] Jones, Johnnie [Johnny] Jones, Terry [Terri] Buford, Paula Adams, Hew [Hue] Fortson, Leona Collier, Jean Brown; the following deceased persons were also trustees: Annie Moore, Shunda [Shaunda] James, Maria Katsaris, Sharon Amos, Jim McLevair [MeElvane] and Debbie Touchette [Editor’s note: Debbie Touchette was a survivor].

[Name deleted] [advised] the persons operating the radio and having access to the codes were: Maria Katsaris (radio operator), Carolyn Layton (substitute), Sharon Amos (substitute), Mike Carter (Morse code) and Judy (last name unknown) (LNU) (code). He further stated that he was in the radio room approximately two months ago when he heard the phrase “give my love”. He stated that Carolyn Layton and Maria Katsaris told him that the phrase meant that Jim Jones would die. He further stated that the phrase “tell them I miss them” was a code that he heard approximately three or four months ago and meant that the assassination squad would “get” the defectors.

[Name deleted] [advised] the term “the Angels” referred to the team of people who were left to “get rid” of defectors and traitors. He stated that whereas he does not know who the Angels are/were, Chris Lewis (deceased), Tim Carter and Mike Prokes are likely suspects.

The following people, [Name deleted] [advised] were regarded as enemies of the temple: Grace and Jim [Tim] Stoen (parents of John Victor Stoen); the following defectors: the Metlocks [Medlocks], the Myrtles [Mertles], Jim Cobbs [Cobb], Mickie [Mickey] Touchette and Debbie Blayton [Blakey Laytpn]. [Name deleted] [advised] whereas he does not know of any plans to assassinate any public official, Jim Jones had an extreme dislike for

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California governor Jerry Brown, the San Francisco Mayor prior to [George] Moscone and Cheddy Jagir [Cheddi Jagan], the party leader of PPP.

[Name deleted] [advised] on November 6, 1978, [several words deleted] the basketball team, the coach and trainer, went to Georgetown for a tennis [basketball] tournament. The only thing unusual about the day that the team left, [Name deleted] [advised], was that the people were not working. Many of the wives, however, cried as the team left. At this point, [Name deleted] recalled that after hearing of the mass suicides, Carl Barnett said that Ed Crenshaw told him that they may never see each other alive. Barnett stated that he took it as a joke.

[Name deleted] [advised] on November 17, 1970, Sharon Amos told Stephen Jones that Jim Jones had ordered them back to Jonestown. Stephen told Sharon that he was not going back. The basketball team then gathered in the radio room to listen to a conversation between Jim Jones and Stephen. Jim Jones, [Name deleted] [advised], told Stephen that Ryan’s (Congressman) group would cause trouble. [Name deleted] [advised] Stephen told Jim Jones that the Congressman would not because the two of them had talked at Sewall [the seawall] on the day before. [Name deleted] [advised] Stephen again refused to go back to Jonestown and told Jim Jones that the basketball team would stay with the “snake man” (owner or operator of a karate gym).

[Name deleted] reference to the November 18, 1978 suicides, stated that Stanley Clayton, PT Cook, said that Jim Jones ordered the shooting of Ryan, the reporters and Patricia Parks. [Name deleted] [advised] Albert Touchette (deceased) was present at the ambush and that the following persons probably participated: Joe Wilson (deceased), Johnnie [Johnny] Jones, Jr. (deceased), Calvin Smith, Wesley Briedenback [Briedenbach] (deceased), Elkihus [Ellihue] Dennis (deceased), Eddie Crenshaw (deceased) and Don Sly. He further stated that David George was probably the tractor driver and that he has some suspicion about the part that Tim Carter and Mike Prokes played. [Name deleted] [advised] Carter and Prokes were told by Jones that their mission was to stay alive.

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[Name deleted] [advised] Stanley Clayton said that when Jones called everyone to the Pavilion on November 18, 1978, for the suicide ritual, everyone thought that it was a test. Thurman Guy, [Name deleted] [advised], drank the concoction, went into convulsions, fell and was dead five minutes later. People then started running back and some were screaming. Jones ordered that the babies be injected first. One lady, Ruletta Paul, volunteered and gave her baby to the medic for the injection. Other women refused to give up their babies. The security squad threatened to kill them and at that point started snatching babies.

[Name deleted] [advised] Jim Jones told Billy Olin [Oliver] and Lou [Lew] Jones to make sure that everyone was dead and then kill themselves.

[Name deleted] [advised] Billy Olin (deceased) told him that Jones had used a double (impersonator) on several occasions and perhaps because of this, Stephen Jones said that he did not believe Jim was dead. Jim Jones Day and Johnnie Cobb, however, identified Jones’ body.

[Name deleted] [advised] the only connection with Russia that he had knowledge of were a visit by two Russians, one from the Russian Embassy; the other a Medical Doctor (MD), and the fact that Jim Jones had stated that in the event of a mass suicide, Russia would give them asylum. Jim had also stated that he had asked Rosalyn [Rosalynn] Carter to send medical aid to Cuba.

[Name deleted] [advised] Mike Prokes told Paula Adams that there were four outstanding warrants for members of the PT. He stated that Paul McAnn [McCann] said one might be for him for bad checks and Cleveland Lewis [Newell] said he may have one for traffic tickets.

Other miscellaneous information given [by] [name deleted] is as follows:

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1) Jones’ bodyguards: Jimmy Jones, Jr., Tim Jones Day and Calvin Douglas. Substitutes were Joe Williams [Wilson], Amando [Amonda] Griffith and Lou Jones, all deceased. These bodyguards were sometimes armed with .38s or .45s.
2) California Lieutenant Governor DiMally [Mervyn Dymally] visited the PT in 1975 or 1976 and there was a big feast. Dick Gregory and Muhammad Ali, according to Jones, were to visit Jonestown.
3) Alpha was the first white night.
4) Hut 14 was known as the family house in the following people lives there: Tim, Johnnie Cobb, Tim Jones Day, Jimmie Jones, Jr., Brenda Cobb (deceased sister of Johnnie), Clarence Cobb (deceased) and Mona Cobb (deceased). A CB radio, shotgun and rifles were also housed there.
5) Billy Olivir [Oliver] told him that money was kept in Redwood Valley at the temple (mother church) in a vault under the pulpit.
6) [Text deleted]
7) Jim Jones would tell PT members what to tell reporters and forced PT members to write incriminating statements about themselves

In reference to Dr. Lawrence [Laurence] E. Schacht, [Name deleted] [advised] Schacht was a confidant of Jim Jones, that his education was financed by the PT and that he was a licensed doctor. He also stated that Judy Ijans [Ijames] (deceased) was Jim’s personal nurse. [Name deleted] described Schacht as quiet, arrogant, a loner and a male chauvinist who did not want female medical assistants. He also stated that there were rumors that Schacht was having a relationship with Rose Burger [Rosie Burgines].

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[Name deleted] [advised] the reason that he was going back to San Francisco was because Jimmie jones said that $5,000 was waiting for everyone who came back to San Francisco.

The following personal data was given [by] [Name deleted].

[Editor’s note: Information on interviewee’s description and relatives deleted]