Temple Meeting with Richard McCoy, Feb 4/Apr 2, 1978

[Editor’s notes: This document appears at both P-1-C-3a – 3d and P-1-C-11a – 11d, although the order of the last two pages is reversed. The second copy is more legible.

[The date of the meeting is uncertain. While the Temple eventually adopted the European practice of designating dates by day-month-year, members sometimes lapsed and used the American system of month-day-year. Hence, two dates are listed.]


McCoy 2/4/78

-he said that at the State Dept they had asked about the decision and McCoy’s Ambassador had said that we can’t specilate [speculate] on that as the case is in court and the attorneys are reputable

-he said the Judge [Aubrey] Bishop is a hard nosed reputable judge so there is no problem

-he said they had just asked becuase if the case goes on and on they want to know how to answer

– Elizabeth Powers will be leaving to go Saudia Arabia in May and James Heneke will replace her (McCoy doesn’t know James Heneke)

– I asked if he has told the State Dept. about Jonestown and how no-one was held against their will and how people were happy, etc. he said he had done so in great detail and we would be getting his first report (thru the freedom of inf)

– I asked about the 2nd report and he said you have to apply again under the freedom of info act for each report

-he said he went so far as to tell the state dept (and he said we should quote him on this) that he didn’t feel there was any use of anyone saying someone was held against their will and the US embassy checkin on it as any more of this checkin and PT could charge them with harassment as he took countless people aside and talked to them.

x- he said what he has gone thru with us is not unusual (in terms of people being worried about their children). he said he went thru the same thin- in Israel when the war was on and American parents were worried they’d get hurt, and in X turkey and Yugoslavia/ young people travel and don’t notify their parents for months – in fact he said he went thru “triple” what I went thru with you

-he said that they have to check somewhat because there was a TV documentary called “Passport to the unknown” which showed that the govt was not active in looking for people


-he said it was only justified when it’s discrimination simply because someone is an American

-or it’s a criminal case and there is physical brutality

-he said there has been a problem in certain countries (not Guyana) when there is Neopolianic law (where someone is guilty until proven innocent) and the ? sit in jail for 1 or 2 years with no trial ? France, Bolitiva and Ecuador) – drug smugglers are often the ones charged but he felt they still should have a right to a trial

-when questioned by the State Dept. he would say “I’m not in a position to say what we’d do in this decision”, /the State Dept wants to know what will happen too


-interest didn’t mean they were pro or con but they inquired

-Hyakowa [U.S. Sen. S.I. Hayakawa] wouldn’t touch it, he said it’s a case for the courts to deal with (we should write him our thanks for his objectivity, and I’m sure this is impressive to McCoy because Hyakawa he thinks was admirable for takin – on the school system (said he had guts/ when it was out of hand

– [U.S. Sen. Mark] Hatfield expressed an interest as did [U.S. Rep. Pete] McClosky

-Luger [U.S. Sen. Richard Lugar] from Indiana expressed interest

-but most of those Congressmen who wrote (actuall their staff aide responded) not the congressmen themselves

– [U.S. Sen. Dick] Clarke from Iowa, [Frank] Church from Idaho (Senators Cranston, [U.S. Rep. Ron [Dellums], [U.S. Rep. Leo [Ryan]. the Congressman from Oregon (?He didn’t know the name, possibly Vice President [Walter] Mondale but he isn’t sure about that

P-1-A-3b/11b (reverse side of page 1 of both versions of the document is a list of “Mission Village Supplies,” although the listing is different.)




pg 2

-Stoen claims the court order (Calif) is not being observed but McCoy told him that Calif. law is not even observed in Nevada or in another State and he pointed this out to Hawes [Jeff Haas] who demanded that McCoy go in and take the child out

-he almost came to blows with Hawes and told him, “I’m not your employee, I’m not your agent”

-Hawes threatened McCoy and said he’d bring Congressmen in, McCoy said, “you can bring in the whole House of Representatives if you want to”

-some countries will make an agreement called “letters Rogatory” to honor the laws from another country as binding, but that usually relates to criminal activity (like terrorism)

Re the precedent of other countries not giving custody to someone in the US if the child lived in this country

-he said Israel never gave [crossed out] custody back because it meant another Israeli soldier, he didn’t want to be quoted on this but it was only Hungary that gave the child back

-mCCoy is going to replace Frank Tumminia

-Tuminia sent a file to McCoy with our letters in it (Laura Johnston’s) etc

-after his Washington job, he’ll go to Yugoslavia or Poland


-he said it was a beautiful country, people are real nice “I never met a real communist there” (he feels the system of self-management in Yugoslavia is clo[s]e to capitalism even tho the people there call themselves socialists

-some people live in big apts and drive Mercedes and have boats and there is a wealthy class and a poor class and [crossed out] there is unemployment (but the Yugoslavia claim the people are lazy) and there is welfare system

-16% unemployment

-there is private ownership of housing/ they allow for free expression

-McCoy is very impressed with the Yugoslavians/ however he did say the police was oppressive

-and if you say anything against [Josip Broz] Tito you can be arrested for 2 yrs, Tito’s wife is on house arrest for meddling with some group

-he said the US has a lot of joint investments in Yugoslavia, has 3 nuclear reactors there

-Dow Chemical has a joint venture with US, 600 million

– in Yugoslavia there is even a US Chamber of Commerce

-US gives military aid to Yugoslavia and thinks of it as very important to our Eastern European [p]olicy as they are mavericks and are non-alligned

[Harold] Bollers (Supreme Ct Judge) told McCoy that what’s best for the child will be the decision

-however if you want to prove abandonment it’s up to Joyce Touchette because since she was awarded custody, she is the primary defendant and will one day have to appear in court to testify about the abandonment

re Guyana going to the wall on this case

-he can’t see where any country would be involvedin a foreign policy dispute (where none of their own people were involved)

-I asked if this could be a ‘foreign policy dispute’ and he said he doesn’t think it would be a foreign policy dispute if we didn’t pressure and the [crossed out] pressure all comes from their side (Stoen’s lobbying but I’m not sure about this

-he said that he and his ambassador have repeated and repeated to people that [crossed out] it is American citizens on both sides

-only if it were a blatant denial of rights would there be a problem



-he said that even if the American govt interceded on the Part of [crossed out] us, no-one could prove political intervention (I thought this was suspect tho I thought we said intervened on Stoen’s [Tim and Grace Stoen] part — and I don’t think they would intervene on our part anyway), but I objected to this stating we’d know if they intervened on Stoen’s part because we have people who are progressive who would tell us (he said you couldn’t prove it either way

-we said in the outside waiting room what we were to say about the fact that it seemed they were trying (Amer. Embassy) but we didn’t think they had enough Administrative power (or whatever the wording Paula [Adams] gave me, but we’d probably have to die anyway/Mike [Prokes] and Debbie [Touchette] forgot the instruction and when I sat down after our appt to get my stuff together and said that, he said “can’t we discuss this in the car” but Marcie [Marceline Jones] picked up on it (he didn’t leave us alone in his office so we couldn’t say it there, and will probably have to do it again)

[Lionel] Luckhoo (3/4/78 Sharon, Mike, Marcie)

-re arrest order/ the judge still hasn’t written the decision/ Luckhoo asked the judge

-the arrest order is applicable until the orders are rescinded/there could still be a need to bring JJ to court (until the order is rescinded) [word crossed out]

-re the immigration thing and their being told not to let the child leave the country, he said that legally there would be no problem with the child leaving/ he doesn’t know of any statement to immigration that he couldn’t leave

– re precedent McCoy told us about to keep the child where it is, he said the child takes the domicile of his father (Stoen is the legal father), Old English law

-the child is not nationalized Guyanese so that doesn’t apply [text crossed out]

-no restriction on John traveling

Abandonment is there a good case as McCoy said

-nothing can be done till the judge makes his decision on the basis of procedure/ & all Grace [Stoen] has to do is say she wants her child back and it isn’t considered abandonment [crossed out] (tho this doesn’t mean Grace has a good case), but if abandonment was asserted, JJ should have to come in and make the case

-Lucko still thinks we have an excellent case but still asserts that he doesn’t think we will win before this judge but will win in appeals

-re Guyana not going to the wall over the child and yet saying that JJ or Joyce wouldn’t be arrested/ he said McCoy hasn’t a clue about the case, said we shouldn’t go to a million people when we have an attorney (Luckho), we said mcCoy had volunteered this info

-he said that McCoy should then convey to the PM his views

-he said Chief Justice [Harold] Bollers was very impressed with our show and that Bollers sympathies are with us

-he said we (Luckho said) we shouldn’t lobby, this month he feels we will get a decision

-I asked if the judge had mentioned the letters that Stoens wrote to the judge and he said no

-Luckho hasn’t talked to the PM about visiting Jonestown