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[Editor’s notes: This document is Jonestown’s transcript of Tape Q 894. There are several, mostly minor differences between the two documents, including on the identification of some of the speakers.
[Minor spelling and abbreviation corrections.]
PHONE PATCH: MICKEY TOUCHETTE 12/3/77
(All parties state their names and date.)
Charlie T: This is Charlie Touchette. I am living in the most beautiful place in the entire world. Hey, Mickey.. last I talked to you– you stole a check for several hundred dollars and you went off on a terrorist spree to blow up a bridge.
Mickey: My name is Mickey T. and this is Dec. 3. Negative copy.
Charlie: “Hey Mickey– it’s strange that I haven’t heard from you for several years since you forged that check for several hundred dollars and went off on a terrorist spree– I believe to blow up some things.”
Mickey: “Okay daddy– I miss you very, very much. I can’t wait to see you again. I love you. And whenever you decide to leave the church, whenever you decide to come back to the States, I am here in S.F. and you can get ahold of me.. I am listed. I love all of you and I miss all of you. Umm, what you just said to me, was not true at all daddy. I was never going to blow up anything. You know me better than that. You know ah, we left the church because of ah, Jim Jones and because of ah, and his sickness, daddy and I don’t even want to get into that. I want to talk to you and I want to make sure that you’re alright. I want to know how your health is, I want to know what you do and I want to know how all my family is
Charlie: “What about the check you forged on us?”
Mickey: “Daddy, I didn’t forge a check. It had, I don’t know– it was either your signature, or my mother’s signature. I asked for some things that I needed. I did not forge a check– that is a lie.”
Charlie: “Use either (inaudible)– but I’ve still got the check daughter.”
Mickey: “Okay daddy, the check that’s a different issue you know, we can talk about that when we can see each other. How are you?”
Charlie: “Mickey, I am doing just fine. I couldn’t live in a better place in the entire world.”
Mickey: “Well, I’m glad you are happy. I just wanted you to know that when you decide to leave.. I am here and I love you and I miss you. I wish we had been able to talk before I left the church.. I wish we had been in private. I wish we could have talked like a father and a daughter talk, instead of with tape recorders and with Planning Commission members around us. I wish we had had some privacy. Is mother there?”
“negative copy”:
Mickey told to repeat last transmission– “Let’s see, what did I say? Daddy, oh, is mother there? Can I talk to her?”
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Charlie: “Joyce [Touchette] wants to know if you are still involved in those terrorist activities?”
Mickey: “Ah, is mother there? I want to speak to my mother. Is she there?”
Charlie: “I am asking a question.”
Mickey: “Daddy. you are not asking me that by yourself, Jim Jones is prompting you to ask me that question. Is my mother there? Charles Garry told me I could talk to her.”
Charlie: “Nobody is prompting me to ask that question.. you just don’t want to answer that question and you know it.”
Mickey: “No, I am not involved in terrorist activities.. Is my mother there– I want to talk to her. (She repeated the word ‘terrorist’ and laughed in the background) (more talking to someone in the background–”what’s a good thing to…inaudible.. want to talk to say hi to people”– this is said aside.. then– Tom, what is going on?
(Tom says he’s waiting for her to finish.)
Joyce: “This is your mother.” (inaudible)
Mickey: “I’m fine mom, how are you?”
Joyce: “Couldn’t be better. It’s beautiful down here Mickey.”
Mickey: “I want you to know mom that I love you. I miss you and when you come back to S.F. I can be easily reached– I am listed.”
Joyce: “I love you but I hope you change your ways Mickey. We have a new little baby that we have adopted– a beautiful little child.”
Mickey: “I heard, I heard that you adopted a child that’s wonderful. You should see your new grandson– he’s beautiful, he’s 2 years old and he is very intelligent and I would like for him to know all of you– when are you going to come back to the States?”
Joyce: “No intention to– I wouldn’t leave this place for anything. We also have an anteater. You know Mr. Muggs– he is here also. We also have a little baby monkey that lives in the house with us.”
Mickey: “OK mother. I just wanted you to know again that I miss you very much and ah, I wish you had been close to me when I had my child, I wish you were all close to me right now. Um, is Michelle [Touchette] there? I want to speak to Michelle.”
Joyce: “I love you too but I know without a doubt– the terrorists activities that you have been into.”
Mickey: “You know, I have never ever believed in my life that it would get to a point where my two parents would accuse me of being involved in terrorist activities. Mother you are listening to that man, you are listening to his lies. Until you ask me personally
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and until you talk to me, and ah, get my side of the story then you don’t have any right to form an opinion against me. I’m your daughter and you know me better than he does and I know you better than he knows you. I know he is telling you to ask me those questions, so (inaudible).. I’m just letting them slide by– they are invalied [invalid]. Is Michelle there? I want to speak to her.”
Joyce: “I do know you real well. And I do recall you did tell me all about your activities from your own mouth!”
Mickey: “Mother, don’t lie! Nothing, nothing in this world is worth lying against your own daughter like that for, nothing is. I want to talk to Michelle!” (more talking aside to others– inaudible)
Joyce: “Mickey, I just hope you get away from those revolutionary violent activities. Do you copy?”
Mickey: “Yes mother, I copied. I want you to know I work 8 hours a day at a very hard job. I take care of myself, I take care of my job, I take care of my son. We’re both healthy, we’re happy, and we’re doing the best we can to have a productive, good life and I wish for you all the same. I want to speak to Michelle.”
Joyce: “OK, Michelle is right here. But did you ever get married?”
Mickey: “I didn’t copy.”
Joyce: “Mickey, I hope you changed your ways. But did you ever get married?”
Mickey: “No, I never got married. I want to speak to Michelle!”
Joyce: “You really should get married for the child’s sake.”
Mickey: “Thank you for the advise. I want to speak to Michelle.”
Michelle: “This is Michelle.”
Mickey: “Michelle? Is this Michelle? Michelle says something again– it doesn’t sound like your voice.”
Michelle: “Yes, this is Michelle and you know it.”
Mickey: “Michelle, I tried to reach you at the dorms but they wouldn’t let me see you. I miss you very much. I want you to know that I love you and I want to see you as soon as possible. If you ever decide to leave the church– try to contact me. I am here in S.F. and I am available for you to reach me. I know what life is really like in that place Michelle and if you want to go– you’ve got a safe place to come to.”
Michelle: “Are you suggesting that I leave this beautiful place and go see the people that you are involved with?”
Mickey: “I don’t know anything about that Michelle. That doesn’t make any sense to me– that’s coming out of Jim Jones’ mouth, nobody else’s. I want to know Michelle are you happy there and do you want to come home?”
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Michelle: “Yes, I’m happy here and I never want to come home and Jim Jones has told me nothing about you.”
Mickey: “OK, Michelle well I would like to speak to you a lot more. Let me speak to Michael [Touchette] – is he there?”
Michelle: “Mike doesn’t want to talk to you– but Albert [Touchette] is here.”
Albert: “Mickey, this is Albert.”
Mickey: “Albert, hello. I miss you sweetheart and I want you to comed home. You want to come to S.F.?”
Albert: “You sound like Sarah Berhnhardt [French stage actress].”
Mickey: “I didn’t hear what you said– say it again.”
Albert: “I said you sound like Sarah Berhnhardt.”
Mickey: “Well, whoever, I don’t know who that is tho– how are you?”
Albert: “Why did you (inaudible).. this is the first time in 4 years that I have heard from you.”
Mickey: “Because, Albert, Jim Jones said whoever left Peoples Temple would be killed. And I was afraid– I was hiding, I was staying away from Jim Jones and Peoples Temple. Al, do you want to leave? If you do, I am here in S.F. Do you want to come to me?”
Albert: “Mickey, that’s a lie, you know that’s a lie. I am happy here and I never want to leave.”
Mickey: “OK, Al, and this goes for everybody, this goes to all of my family– if you ever change your mind and if you want to leave Peoples Temple, you can do it. Jim Jones has no power over you at all! You can leave Peoples Temple. You can live lives in the United States. And I am here and you can contact me whenever you want to contact me. I don’t believe that Michael won’t talk to me, I think they are keeping him from me. I want to speak to Grandma [Helen Swinney].”
(This is Charlie.)
Charlie: “Mickey, your grandmother does not want to speak to you.”
Mickey: “Al, your voice has really changed. You sound so grown up. Is grandpa [Cleave Swinney] there– I want to speak to grandpa then.”
Charlie: “He’s not around, I don’t know if he wants to talk to you. We’ll call him and ask him.”
Mickey: “OK, how about Uncle Tim [Swinney]? Is he there? I want to speak to him.”
Charlie: “Your Uncle Tim definitely does not want to speak to you ’cause you got some things to settle with him.”
Mickey: “Because I have what? I didn’t understand the last part.”
Charlie: “Mickey, by the way, while we are talking– you’re the one that sounds like a robot.”
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Mickey: “Is Uncle Tim there Albert, I didn’t hear what you said- Let me speak to Uncle Tim.”
Charlie: “Your Uncle Tim does not want to speak to you Mickey.”
Mickey: “OK, that’s alright. I want you to know please tell Michael and everybody else there that I love them and I miss them. And when they decide to leave Peoples Temple, they can call me, they can contact me, and I will do all I can to get them back here. I miss you all and I know what your life is like down there– I know how awful it is. I know how miserable it is. So please call me when you want to leave. You don’t have anything to be afraid of– there is nothing to be afraid of. I know how much, I know how a few of you want to go, now please leave there as soon as you can– it’s not worth it.”
Charlie: “We definitely don’t want to leave here. Why would we want to leave here? It’s such a beautiful wonderful place… we plan on living here the rest of our lives.”
Mickey: “OK, alright. But if you ever change your minds please do– please contact me. Does anybody else want to talk to me? Does anyone have another message for me?”
Joyce: “This is your mom Mickey. You really sound crazy! I’m just wondering who’s been talking to you. I’ve never heard you talk so silly.”
Mickey: “OK mother, I want you to know I love you, and I miss you and I’m doing everything I can to get you back to the U.S.”
Joyce: “I don’t want you to bother me anymore. (inaudible)… good–bye.”
Michelle: “This is Michelle. I want you to stop bothering us– and I don’t want anything to do with you. Good-bye.”
Mickey: “Michelle, I don’t believe you. I believe that all of you down there that are my family, I believe that you do love me. I believe that you do miss me. And I believe that eventually you will be away from there, and when you will be away from there, we will be a family again. I will not give up on that. I believe it will happen. We will again be a family away from Jim Jones because he is not going to be able to keep all of the people down in that jungle the way he is trying to keep you down there. And he is probably listening to me right now, is he?”
Michelle: (inaudible except for “leave us alone.”)
Mickey: “Alright Michelle, does anyone else want to talk to me?”
Cleve [Cleave Swinney]: “This is your grandpa Mickey.”
Mickey: “Grandpa hi, I’m so glad to hear you. How are you?”
Cleve: “Negative copy.”
Mickey: “Grandpa, I want you to know that I have your first great-grandchild here– would you like to see him?”
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Cleve: “Negative copy.”
Mickey: “Grandpa this is Mickey, I have your first great grandchild with me. Would you like to see him when you get back to the U.S.?”
Cleve: “I just came down here to the most beautiful pleace [its ‘place’ in the transcript] in the world. Good-bye.”
Mickey: “I hear that grandpa– all of you are telling what a beautiful place that jungle is– that’s fine. What I am telling you is that when you decide to leave there– I am here in S.F. I am here waiting on you. I want to have another Christmas, I want to have another Thanksgiving, I want to have a family. I want you all to get out of there as soon as you can.”
Cleve: “Then you’ll have to wait until I’m as old as Methusal [Methuselah].”
Mickey: “That wasn’t real clear– but I understand that I have to wait. I am willing to wait– I have waited all these years and I will wait more. I will wait as long as it takes for Jim Jones to give up.. what he is doing to you and to everybody else. Does anybody else want to talk to me?”
Cleve: “(inaudible)…I’ll never come home.”
Mickey: “OK. That’s alright but you tell me that over the radio but believe whatever you want to believe in your heart and follow what you feel to be true to yourself. Is grandma there?”
Cleave: “She’s here– but she does not want to talk to you honey.”
Mickey: “Well, tell her that her grandchild loves her and I love her and I miss her and I wish that she would talk to me. There is nothing I can say that would hurt her. I want to tell her that I love her and I miss her and I want to see her as soon as possible.”
Cleve: “We know that there is nothing you can say that would hurt us.”
Mickey: “I want to speak to Uncle Tim.”
Cleve: “He doesn’t want to talk to you child.”
Mickey: “Well, tell Uncle Tim that I miss him and I love him, and tell them all that their nephew and their grandchild is here with me and I want them all to see him, we are a family and I want us to be a family again. Jim Jones is not strong enough to break up a family– no matter how hard he tries. It may take him a few years but we will get back together again.”
Albert: “Negative copy, repeat.”
Mickey: “What I said is, I have your grandchild here, and your nephew here and I don’t care how many years Jim Jones tries to keep you away, he cannot break this family up forever. Nothing is stronger than the family and ah, over.”
Albert: “Mickey, nobody destroyed the family, nobody destroyed the family. You went out and left your family.”
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Mickey: “OK, Al, but you understand why I had to leave you like that. Al, you understand because Jim Jones said we would be killed. That’s why, I left on my own. Albert, you can leave on your own too. You can leave just like I did. You have to make that decision yourself. You have to decide that you want to leave Peoples Temple. You have to decide that you want to leave Jim Jones. You have to decide that you’re not afraid of him. You have to do it yourself. And when you decide that that you want to get out of there– to just leave. You know there’s a lot of people here who will help you– you don’t have to stay there the rest of your life. Nothing is telling you you have to stay there. You will not be uh, you will not drop dead when you leave. He does not have a gift. He is not metaphysical. He cannot heal. You have no reason to be afraid of him.”
Cleve: “I say, I want to go back to my little cottage here where we are really happy. Now I am saying 73’s.”
Mickey: “That sounds like grandpa and if it was grandpa– I’m happy to hear your voice. I hope that you are getting the proper medical care down there that you need. You’re probably not, but I hope you are.. (she says hmm? to someone aside who answers) and says– “ah, Uncle Marvin [Swinney] is very concerned about you and he wants me to say hello to all of you and that he misses all of you. Uncle Bob feels the same way.. and all of the Touchettes. They are all rooting for you. And they hope that you will leave there as soon as possible. They miss you, they hold no grudges against you, they understand. They understand the sickness of Jim Jones also!”
Joyce: “Mickey, I don’t really know what you are talking about because we just spoke to Emily [Touchette, mother of Charles Touchette] the other night. And she knows how newspapers lie and she is very happy for us down here.”
Mickey: “Well, she wasn’t a member of Peoples Temple the way I was so maybe she doesn’t know some things– that’s alright. But she still hopes that you leave the church, she hopes that you leave and she hopes that you get out as do all the rest of your family. They all miss you as family, they all want to be a family together. Like I said– he cannot break up the family the way he is trying to. That was one of the first things he told us in that church was to break your family ties and call your parents by their first names. And swear and deny your family ties like I said before. And he has tried to do that within the church also.” (more talking to some one in the background)
Joyce: “You guys, the children always called us by our first names even before we came to the Temple. I don’t know what you are talking about.”
Mickey: “Mom, that’s a lie. I never called you Joyce and I never called my father Chuck– until Jim Jones encouraged us to do that. He tried to break up the family. Now, I wanted to tell you, mom, how much, to get away from Jim Jones, he’s not the reason I called you. I called you to see how you are doing and to tell you how much I loved you and that I missed you. There is a lot of things that I want to talk to you about in regards to raising a child. I really want your advise on a lot of things. It is kind of hard to talk to you screaming like this over the radio, but if you get a letter to me, if you can write without it being censored do that and if you can– send me some private thoughts that he, that Jim Jones will not know about.”
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Joyce: “Mickey, I’m really tired about you talking about the best friend I have ever had! I am really tired of talking to you. But I do have some advise– you really should get married for the child’s sake. Good-bye Mickey.”
Mickey: “Good-bye mother. It was good talking to you and I am glad to hear your voice. I am glad you are still alive and I have not given up that you will be back in the U.S. again to where I can talk to you like my mother without having Jim Jones interferring. I want to talk to my father.”
Charlie: “Mickey, this is your dad. I’m not interested in talking to you any longer. Good-night.”
Mickey: “Good-night daddy and I know that you are interested in talking to me and if Jim Jones wasn’t there you probably would have a lot to say to me. When you come back to the U.S. we will have a lot of time to talk in private. Good-bye and I love you all. Tell Mike that I am sorry that he wouldn’t talk to me– I miss him and I love him too. And the same for Albert, the same for Michelle, grandpa and grandma, Uncle Tim and a lot of people there. I want to know how Ava [Cobb], I want to know how the Cobbs are doing too. I want to know how everybody there is doing, how they are really doing.”
Charlie: “(inaudible)…I can see through your games. I am never coming back to the States! Good-bye!”
Mickey: “I don’t know if that was my father or not talking– was that Charlie?”
Charlie: “Mickey, this is your father and I am tired of this nonsense.”
Mickey: “OK daddy, call it nonsense, but I know I am telling the truth, and I know that in your heart you know that I am telling the truth. I want you to know that am here in S.F. and I can easily be reached. Call me then you want to get out of Peoples Temple. You don’t have to stay there and live that life you are living for the rest of your life. You can get out and be free and be your own person and make your own decisions.”
Charlie: “Mickey, government people from all over Guyana look at this place and tell us how beautiful it is and what a good job we have done here. You talk like a fool!”
Mickey: “I’m sorry you think that daddy, but like I said when you decide to leave and when you want to leave, and when you want to get out of there, come out. We are not going to give up here. Tell Jim Jones that, we are not going to give up. And he can sit back there and he can laugh and laugh and laugh because we in the U.S. are going to continue until our families are returned to us.”
Charlie: “Mickey, are you going to kidnap us?”
Mickey: “No daddy, that is your word– I didn’t say that. We’ll do it legally, everything will be done legally. And like I said Jim Jones will not be able to continue ripping up families and controlling people’s minds the way he does it.”
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Charlie: “Mickey, I am an adult and I have made up my own mind.”
Mickey: “OK, but I am telling you daddy, that just to keep talking to you– it is wonderful to hear your voice. It’s great. I’m glad that you are OK. And I’m glad that you are able to at least keep talking. Um, over..” (pause– laughing –then she says “oh, good..” “Hey, can I keep talking Tom?”
Radio Operator: “Yea, go ahead.”
Mickey: cont. “I want you to know that your grandson needs a grandfather and he needs his aunt and his uncles and his grandmother and ah, as soon as you get back here…you will love him..you should see him, he is a little athlete..already he’s a little athlete. He plays baseball, he tosses a tennis racket and he ah, he is a lot of fun– you would have a ball with him you would enjoy him so much.”
Charlie: “You can bring him down here– we have a beautiful 3 bedrrom home.”
Mickey: “Well, I have a beautiful studio apt. and I did my time with Peoples Temple and I am not going to do anymore time daddy– I had enough of it. I don’t want Jim Jones. I don’t want Peoples Temple. I want my son out to where he can make up his mind to do what he wants to do– when he wants to do it. I don’t want anyone telling him what to say over a radio.”
Charlie: “I want to know who is paying you for your campaign of hate.”
Mickey: “I have no hate…all I’ve told you is how much I love you and how much I miss you and how much I can’t wait to see you again. And your little grandson here, he can say, he has been taught how to say Aunt Michelle, he has been taught how to say Uncle Mike, Uncle Al, grandma and grandpa, Uncle Tim, Aunt Ava, Aunt Sandy [Cobb], Aunt Brenda [Cobb], Uncle Johnny [Cobb] and Uncle Joe [Joel Cobb]. He can say all those things. He is waiting on the day when all of you can come back and see him.”
Charlie: “Mickey what are you trying to do? You know that we use aunts and uncles, grandma”s and grandma’s mom’s and pops.”
Mickey: “Daddy, I’m not lying to you. You did not teach me to lie, you taught me to tell the truth. You taught me to think for myself. You taught me to be individualistic and you taught me to be independent. And that is what I am being right now– I am not lying. He told us to break family ties, he told us to call our parents by their first names. (pause) And I don’t want to adapt, I don’t want to be what somebody else tells me to be. I am Mickey Touchette and for me to adapt to Jim Jones’ way of living is sick and degenerate.”
Charlie: “I said I did not teach you to get involved in drugs and violent revolution.”
Mickey: “You are right. You never taught me to do that and I never did it.”
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Charlie: “You are a liar.”
Mickey: “Well daddy if that can all be proven, please do it, pls. prove it. Tell Jim Jones to produce records that shows me getting involved in that kind of things. When I left the church, he told you that I was in jail, make him prove to you that the jail copy. I never did anything like that.”
Charlie: “Mickey, I didn’t know that you were in jail. Were you in jail?”
Mickey: “No, I wasn’t but Jim Jones said I was.”
Charlie: “First time I heard of it (inaudible)… I didn’t know you were in jail.”
Mickey: “Like I said daddy, I wasn’t, but if I had been in jail, the copies could be proven. Daddy, look at us, me and you are fighting, daughter and father fighting over Jim Jones. Daddy, that is not even right– it’s not natural. I don’t want to talk to you like this. I want to tell you how much I love you and I want to talk to you about raising my child and you being a grandfather. That’s what I am interested in.. and if you can ever leave the church.”
Charlie: “I’m glad to be a grandfather– but I’ve got 5 acres and you’ve got an apt…why don’t you come down here?”
Mickey: “I have no desire to go down there. I want you all to come back up into the U.S. I know you want to leave daddy, and that’s good enough for me. When you decide to, I’m here in S.F. and I know what this conversation means and I know what is prompting it. That’s OK, that’s OK, I understand. I love you and I miss you. Nobody understands Peoples Temple and Jim Jones better than people who have gone thru it…ex-members. When you decide to leave, I am here, I am waiting for you.”
Charlie: “Mickey, any psychiatrist can tell that you are filled with hate. And I don’t want to live in your apt.!”
Mickey: “OK, but I want you to know that if I can, if there is any way I can get to Guyana. I will try to get to Guyana to see you. Will Jim Jones pay my way to Guyana and back?”
Charlie: “Negative copy.”
Mickey: “It figures it would be a negative copy! I wanted to know, but I’ll try to get to Guyana whichever way I can. Will Jim Jones pay my way there and back?”
Charlie: “Mickey, with all the hate that you have, I wouldn’t let Jim Jones pay your way down here and back.”
Mickey: “I have no hate daddy, I have no hate. I’ll go even if I have to pay my own way. Then what will you do?”
Charlie: “Fine, fine Mickey.”
Mickey: “(she says in background “fine, oh well”) “How are you doing with your time during the day? Besides all that what are you doing? I am interested to know how you live.”
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Albert: “We are finished with this conversation. We are finished with this conversation. Terminate the phone patch.”